Nine Deucian Socio-political Theory Part 1

Before I proceed, I would like to announce that the independent coffee shop from which I will dispatch this post sells a “light bodied” coffee called Dirty Nekkid Lady.

A reader by the name of Gaffa moseyed on by here t’other day, shortly after I had published my Dr. Pepper Ten™ post, to inform me that she (I’m assuming Gaffa is a she, since women are the default humans, according to me) feels frustrated and disappointed in my recent choice of post topics:

There’s the law Congress is trying to pass about no longer requiring Catholic hospitals to at least transfer women to another hospital in cases of medical emergencies rather than perform abortions; there’s Scott Brown’s pronouncement on the fuckability of Elizabeth Warren, and there’s the NYPD mace-ing of women who were simply watching the Occupy protest, and all you can bring yourself to blog on lately are Avatar, Diet Dr. Pepper, and Slim Jim ads? Really?

Most people bristle at being told what they should be writing about, but I initially felt like a terrible feminist, probably due mostly to the fact that I haven’t written much in the last few months, but also because at least some of the people who read my blog apparently find what I choose to write about trivial. I have a lot of reasons for not writing as much as I used to and am still working out where this blog as a whole is going and why, but I’m not all that worried about explaining any of that right this second. What I am interested in doing, however, is explaining my choices with regard to post topics, as it appears I haven’t been clear enough in illustrating just why I think stupid movies and shitty commercials are such a BFD. I mustn’t forget that I write this blog in order to build a movement, not to have a radical feminist intellectual circle jerk with people who are already familiar with the theory that underlies my flip phrases (not that I don’t enjoy radical feminist intellectual circle jerks).

As to the suggested alternative topics, I don’t make a habit of writing about US electoral politics — even when politicians prove that they are misogynistic wangs — because US electoral politics is a professional wrestling league designed to distract the public from what genuinely warrants attention and energy (my somewhat recent post on the Anthony Weiner fracas notwithstanding, though that post has as much to do with just how ridiculous a distraction electoral politics is as with my opinion of Weiner and his wiener). I don’t write about abortion all that often because I’ve said all I have to say on the subject and am aware that the right to safe and legal abortion is constantly under siege, and because every liberal feminist blog covers every abortion story that emerges, mostly satisfactorily. And cops macing female protesters, though it is of course fucked up, is the kind of thing Liberal Dude protesters will blog about plenty in an attempt to “get pussy” by pretending to chivalrousness.

This might disappoint Gaffa (and probably several other people), but I will likely continue to do what I have done since the advent of the ‘chine, which is, among other things, write about popular culture (including porn, BDSM, entertainment media, and marketing) and the ways in which it reflects and shapes societal misogyny. I will do so for two reasons. First and least importantly, writing about popular culture affords me the opportunity to entertain myself and (so I hear) a few others. Second, I actually believe popular culture to be chiefly to blame for the continuation of misogyny. The fact that we have gendered diet sodas might appear trivial due to its brazen absurdity, but people are going to buy Dr. Pepper Ten™, billions of people have uncritically absorbed the ridiculous messages Avatar™ managed to communicate, and men are going to eat poisonous sticks made of lips, assholes, and chemicals because they hate everything associated with femininity so much that they’re willing to eat Slim Jims™ when they’re told that Slim Jims™ will save them from faggotry.

It is essential to understand why these chunks of cultural detritus that we, the non-befuddled, rightly identify as absurd manage to influence the behavior of the general public. My view, derived chiefly from my understanding of radical feminist and anti-imperialist theory, is as follows:

In order for a hierarchy to exist, one must be able to identify who belongs to which status group. That is usually accomplished by defining a subordinate group (or groups) in relation to the dominant group. As in, dominant group A claims to exhibit characteristics X, Y, and Z, so subordinate group B is purported to exhibit characteristics L, M, and N, which are usually the opposite of or “complementary” (the language of hierarchy apologists) to characteristics X, Y, and Z. But difference alone doesn’t make a hierarchy, so the (real or purported) characteristics of the subordinated group are devalued in relation to the characteristics of dominant groups and are generally derided. In the case of gender hierarchy, for example, the prevailing ideology is that men are strong, women are weak; men are rational, women are emotional; men are high-minded, women are petty, jealous, and vain, etc. In order for male (or white, or Anglo-American, or upper class) supremacy to continue, the members of the dominant group are taught that they must do everything within their power to distance themselves, by means of whatever markers possible, from the subordinate group. Because women and men within the same social classes interact and, indeed, live in the same households in most cases, boys and men must go to much greater lengths to disassociate themselves from people they exist in such close association with. Hence, boys are inundated from a very young age with lessons on how to avoid what are most likely natural human behaviors (crying, displaying compassion and emotions other than anger, and so on) because such behaviors are deemed “feminine.”

There is a reason that little boys loathe pink while little girls either like or have neutral feelings about blue. There is also a reason that boys put “NO GIRLS ALLOWED” signs on their hideouts while little girls don’t shun boys — and then only do so half-heartedly — until they perceive that boys dislike them and react accordingly.

Coca-Cola™ and Con-Agra Foods ™ (the makers of Dr. Pepper Ten™ and Slim Jim™, respectively) and the ad outfits that work for them don’t likely have a nuanced, lucid, or even conscious understanding of how and why these mechanisms of identity differentiation and hierarchy affirmation work, but they know they exist. And being corporations, which are entities characterized by absolute amorality, they use the tools available to them to attain their only purpose, which is profit. By taking note of men’s perceived need to disassociate themselves from women and the misogyny from whence that perception arises, these corporations both reflect the level of woman hatred that characterizes contemporary American culture and solidify (and, in my view, increase) it.

Next time I find myself here at the Dirty Nekkid Lady-pushing coffee house, I will further infuriate those who want me to stop talking about Dr. Pepper Ten™, Slim Jims™, and stupid movies by using all three to elucidate my theory of emergent neo-masculinity that relies upon the extreme rejection of the survival instinct in excruciatingly verbose detail, and by finding the most ridiculous possible means by which to relate Avatar™, DP10™, and Slim Jims™ to my hypothesis as to the origins of patriarchy itself!

83 thoughts on “Nine Deucian Socio-political Theory Part 1

  1. I’d agree that big things are made of seemingly small things, and that they are important, and that the big things will be discussed by many other people anyway.

    I’d also add that, IMHO, it’s important not to overlook the little things. Something obviously wrong like rape…well, I won’t say that talking about it is accepted because not all men are rapists, sometimes accusations are false, men can be victims too etc etc, but it’s seen as something feminists are (theoretically) allowed to be unhappy with. Misogyny in advertising is something not everyone wants to touch, because it’s easier for potential silencers to claim is just the feminists ruining our fun. I can imagine people not wanting to deal with more minor things like this…the first time I heard about the Dr Pepper thing was on a forum in a thread complaining how too many people have blogs and complain about things that are obviously just meant to be jokes etc. My response…well, is there a term for knowing you should tell people they are obviously wrong, but wimp out in the hopes that a not-confrontational response might be listened to? (It wasn’t, of course) Someone needs to step up and fight these fights.

    Also, IMHO, while there are worse forms of misogyny, that doesn’t mean more minor examples get a free pass. If people only discuss the worst examples, if misogyny is defined as only being the obviously terrible stuff, than anything less stops being seen as misogynistic. “Sure, I love rape jokes, but that’s ok, I’m not one of THOSE guys”.


  2. You don’t owe an explanation to anyone, your writing and analysis is AWESOME. I would say you have found your own little niche, and it’s not about being a bad or good feminist – all of these issues are important.


  3. wordpress sends me ND posts, yet does not recognize selfsame address for login/new password– how odd…

    anyway, just came here to say pop/culture is future reality. i read/comment here because i agree with the approach; i resent rape scenes in movies, for example, because the writers and everyone who helped them have just created a brand new rape where one previously did not exist. they took the power of the visual moving picture, which could have depicted an infinite number of images of other things, and thought, “let’s choose rape!” i do not want to know those people, and they do not want to meet me in a dark alley.

    every such image is reinforcement that not only is this “just the way things are,” it is *”the way things OUGHT to be.*” you can’t unsee these things, and if you have eidetic memory, you are permanently fucked. it is a psychic assault for which i bear a huge grudge. it is very real. it is not the only problem i have encountered in life, but a slap in the face doesn’t make a kick in the ass go away.


  4. As opposed to examining one-off horrors, you deal with the more insidious. This is a good thing to do, Nine-Deuce.

    The Grand Canyon didn’t happen because of some cataclysm: it took time and errosion. It’s those little erosive ideas that get planted in male-child/female-child minds by parents who don’t even realise what they are doing that have the greatest impact. They cement a social norm, what is right and what is wrong for girls and boys and women and men. There is a perceived security in a social norm, no matter how wrong, how unjust it actually is… which is why I see a buy-in to male entitlement among women: it’s a social norm.
    I am outside the norm, so it is easy for me to see this. You can’t be gender-exploded and expect society to accept you. Since I’m not easy to accept, I give up seeking validation in norms. This is a frightening concept to most individuals: and fear turns quickly to hate.

    Self-hate is why so many of my type of person end their life.

    Fear of the unknown. Wow, it’s really quite a force to reckon with, isn’t it? Men don’t understand women, so fear them, and too often that becomes hate. I just find it odd that women don’t follow that same line of reaction. So, it’s not a human trait, then: it’s a male trait. Lord of the Flies sort of thing.

    Sad. You would have thought we would have evolved beyond that point by now.


  5. If Gaffa isn’t pleased with your particular blogging style, she needs to get her own blog (Cheez-Its reference!11!!) where she can address the topics that she feels are “more important than Dr. Pepper 10 & Slim Jims”. That’s how I see it.

    You have enough stress dealing with spam from all the shitters & spitters of DudeLand; don’t need a smartypants coming in and telling you how to run your site, too.

    @isme: Why are you constantly attempting to sneak in some little “what about the menz!” crap? False rape allegations? Are you fucking serious? The Spearhead is that way –>


  6. I am very grateful to you for writing about the social poison of pop culture. In our part of the world, it’s the air that misogyny breathes. I can bring myself (most of the time) to visit news sites or to watch certain news broadcasts. But prime time TV and advertising, which I generally only see when I am in a hotel, I find the most disturbing. I can actually feel the negative effects on my psyche from exposure to this. Even standing in line at the supermarket and seeing the magazine covers with their barrage of messages that “between the pages” lie the answer to all of my inherent flaws and deficiencies – all of which are concerned with my face and body.

    There is a screening of the doc “MIssRepresentation” coming up in our city and I have been thinking about how difficult it is for a woman to feel beautiful for being exactly who she is and presenting herself exactly as she wants to. It’s impossible without a big dose of fierce and steely resistance to pop culture. I know that “feeling beautiful” is a phrase that has been co-opted and turned into something shallow and in many cases quite ugly, but by the term I mean feeling integrated and feeling just as entitled to speak and act as the next person, regardless of wang or Hawtness.


  7. I actually agreed with Gaffa (and am a little jealous (S)he got to be mentioned in one of your posts), so I’m kind of pleased to get a post explaining why you focus on popular culture.


  8. @sugarpuss

    Sorry, I expressed myself very badly. I meant to say that certain topics are obviously of importance to all but the most blinkered, and feminists are therefore theoretically “allowed” to talk about them. In practice, of course, the same tired lines will be brought against them to get them to stop.

    With less important things, they skip giving permission and jump straight to all feminists being brainwashed by the matriarchy, out to ruin our fun, looking for things to complain about, etc. If you see what I mean.

    I didn’t mean to imply there was any validity to the silencing arguments.


  9. I wonder how many people who ask “Why aren’t you blogging about X?” really give a shit? It’s a pretty common derailing technique. It’s also a bit rude. The asker should get her own blog rather than insist you dance to her tune.

    So nice to see you back doing what you do and writing what you write! (-: I still have a few This Woman Is Being Degraded stickers from yonks ago. (I used to comment occasionally as Laurel.)


  10. I just wanted to compliment your blog and this post. I don’t have anything to add, but I am aware I never post comments except when I disagree with something, which isn’t very gracious. I guess I could complain that you don’t post often enough, but your posts are so well written and meaty that I can’t begrudge you the time it takes to create them.

    Incidentally, I think you meant “complementary” rather than “complimentary” in the text. It is an error I make often, and therefore am rather sensitized to it. And, yes, I wouldn’t have commented if I hadn’t felt the need to correct you. I am a deceitful and pedantic asshole. The compliments are sincere, however.


  11. Great comments :) And I would like to add, even if it’s a bit off topic, that I really admire ND for being a voice of authenticity in a superficial, syrupy, overly sentimental (about the wrong things – like crushing male egos) world. It’s been my experience that people who get weepy over Hallmark cards are some of the creepiest characters I’ve ever met. And they are also the types who never criticize advertising or mainstream media. Keeping it real ain’t always purdy, but it’s an attitude that is desperately needed in our sickening, candy floss, corporate and sexist culture.


  12. I gotta agree with Snarkurchin re: the derailing technique. I get that shit all the time (and so does anyone else who is politically active or advocates for a cause). Some people will try to invalidate or discredit–or even just minimize–your position by bringing up the fact that your position ISN’T THE MOST GOD-AWFUL AFFLICTION ON HUMANITY AT THIS MOMENT. For example, I have a big problem with factory farming of animals we use to eat. It really makes me feel badly. But I can’t count the times I’ve mentioned it only to be told something like: “There are starving people in India/kids get cancer/what about domestic abuse (what a euphemism)/the animals wouldn’t even exist if we didn’t raise them for food.” ANYTHING to avoid listening to my complaint and maybe–just maybe–actually thinking about it.
    Sorry to talk so much about myself; I just thought the comparison was relevant. Please keep up the media analysis and whatever else strikes your fancy. It’s all important and besides, most people aren’t doing it. Like that “Burger King wants you to suck a Dick” post? Fucking hilarious, and totally bullet-proof! Three cheers 9D, keep up the good work. I love your blog.


  13. I am an aging feminist who only recently discovered your blog. I think you are making an important point, and am only sorry that you still need to be making it. I hoped we would be a little better by the 21st century.

    Thank you, & keep up the good work!


  14. Hello Nine Deuce,
    I am a male person, and I really enjoy your writing. Your insight into corporate marketing is particularly refreshing. Considering how pernicious marketing can be, we need more vigilant people like you around.


  15. hey! I liked this post. Could be the canadian in me, but sometimes I have a hard time with all the harshly negative language, but this one didnt seem as angry. Im sure hate has its place in advocating political agendas (both pro and con feminist issues use it), but I personally have a hard time with it, it gives me anxiety. I’m also the sort of person who cant handle scary movies, heh. I guess one question I could ask to add to the discussion is, what do you think the role of positive versus negative reinforcement has on radical feminism? or, to put it another way, do the intended results get achieved more effectively when you applaud things you want more of, or shame things you want less of?

    PS. you’re welcome for adbusters :P


  16. “what do you think the role of positive versus negative reinforcement has on radical feminism? or, to put it another way, do the intended results get achieved more effectively when you applaud things you want more of, or shame things you want less of?”

    IMHO, though I’m not an expert on this sort of thing, it doesn’t really matter. The people who are going to be driven to histerics, accusing you of being brainwashed by the matriarchy and out to ruin civilisation or whatever are going to do so regardess of how nice you try to point out problems they are causing and/or benefitting from.

    On the other hand, trying to avoid hurting anyone’s feeling means you have to avoid saying more or less anything useful. It’s also, IMHO, a bit dubious for other reasons…at some point it seems that being prejudiced (in various forms) isn’t nearly as bad as calling someone out on it.


  17. I’ve heard that brought up quite often. I guess in my experience, ‘politely’ asking my oppressors to stop what they’re doing just never got me anywhere, and if anything, encouraged more abuse. Should a woman ‘quietly’ ask her rapist to get off her? I’m not sure what kind of argument that is, to be honest. People, both men and women, take their free will and agency very, very seriously. If they object to someone doing something against that will, and it makes you squirm to think about the whole dynamic, isn’t it best you never bother going out at all? These conflicts are constant, and not likely to stop until we are all more enlightened in general. That hasn’t happened yet.

    This may seem unrelated, but there was an awful incident in China, in which a toddler was run over in the street, then left to lie in her own pool of blood. Because no one helped her, she was hit by another vehicle. The only person to stop and help finally move her out of the way was a ‘rag collector.’ The Youtube video is pretty hard to watch, but here’s the news link:

    Sometimes, outrage is the only appropriate response.


  18. Jesse Leon Easter said

    Could be the canadian in me, but sometimes I have a hard time with all the harshly negative language […]

    Actually, it’s the dude in you.

    OTOH, since you appear to be an advocate of abolishing “negativity” on the internet, could you do me a favor and go to, and tell Dick Masterson that he is offending your delicate nature? My guess is that you would never do such a thing because:

    A. You’re a coward. Even men who oppose misogyny rarely ever call out a fellow bro when he talks shit about women. They have yet to figure out the concept of silent approval.


    B. Your real problem is with female anger. You are just another member of the DudeBro club who believes that women should shut up and roll over in submission, no matter how poorly we are treated by men.

    Regardless of which category you fall within, ask yourself this: If you read an “angry” post penned by a male blogger, do you ever complain about it, as you have done here on 92’s blog? If you have, then you can just ignore this entire reply. If not, then you are clearly a biased, woman-subordinating misogynist who will soon get his whole ass torn out by your’s truly (with 92’s permission, of course), if he continues to loiter in this Feminist-friendly space.


  19. We do applaud the things we want more of. That’s why we come to this blog.

    The sad fact is, the shit far far outweighs the gold. That’s all.


  20. It would be a lovely day indeed if I stood in a room full of dudes and said that women should own at least half of the land, instead of the meager 1 or 2 % we own now, and everyone nodded their heads in agreement because I smiled when I said it.
    But that wouldn’t happen. They believe they own it if they are willing to kill off anyone else that happened to be living there or do something as muscle straining as sticking a flag in the ground. Who owns the moon? Should anyone?

    I wish ownership could be abolished altogether but wouldn’t it be nice to have something to pass on to a daughter so that she wouldn’t have to get married if she didn’t want to.
    There is no smile bright enough or passive enough that is going to get men to give up the concept of ownership. Ownership of everything, including the media.


  21. One the one hand, I want to support feminists, because I never liked, or fit in with, men who are misogynists. On the other hand, I don’t want to be like some of the sympathising sycophants who frequent these boards pretending that they have feminism figured out better than the feminists do.

    So, I think I will do what I have always done in both situations and say “no comment.”


  22. hey Sugarpuss! Im going to try and respond to your post which responded to my post. If I fail to address something you said, please make it clear in your response, and I will do my best to address it.

    I suppose a good first place to start would be your claim that I would never oppose claims made on which offend my “delicate nature”. in this case, I am going to assume that by “delicate nature” you mean my preference for positive reinforcement over negative reinforcement ( or “shaming”) as a means to affect positive change in society. Although you have every right to doubt this, I would like to say that I do oppose any and all misogynist claims made by anyone, anywhere. In fact, to go a step further, I oppose on a general level stereotyping based on gender in all circumstances. This includes, of course, any assumptions that my particular philosophical viewpoint is the result of my gender. Of course, this standpoint could be a result of my gender, but I so vehemently oppose determinism (as a source of prejudice) that I need to cast it aside.

    You claimed that men who oppose misogyny “rarely ever call out a fellow bro when he talkes shit about women” because “they have yet to figure out the concept of silent approval”. I would like to attempt to demonstrate my understanding of the concept of silent approval, so that you can rule out that angle, and we can both come to a better understanding of each other. in my opinion, “silent approval” is the concept that when a person says something you find objectionable, if you say nothing, you tacitly are saying that you approve of it, and welcome more of it. Is this an accurate portrayal of the concept of silent approval? if so, you must concede that I at least understand what the concept means. And to inject my personal opinion, I agree with you. Not standing up for something you believe in when its being attacked is tantamount to permitting it. I am on your side there. Again, I make an effort to not ever tacitly permit misogynist (or gender-biased) claims when I see them made by others. You can disbelieve that, of course, but for the sake of discussion, this would be easier if you took me at my word.

    The second claim you make asserts that I could have a problem with female anger in general, that is, specifically FEMALE anger. I would humbly submit that I DO have a problem with anger in men and women, and I honestly would not make the claim that anger is wrong. I am not telling you or anyone that anger is not useful or valid, female or otherwise. I am telling you that MY particular disposition does not react well to anger in any of its forms. I am sharing my bias with you and admitting it as such. I also go on to claim that anger isnt a good way of swaying those who disagree with you. This is a claim ripe for refutation, if you want to disagree with it. I recommend claiming that all people who disagree with you are a lost cause, so they deserve the anger. That one is pretty solid.

    (moving on to your last paragraph) I have asked myself if I have complained about the anger in a post done by a man. I have, several times, complained about the anger in a post done by a man. I (personally) find anger is not useful as a method to open up the minds of people you disagree with, but thats just my experience.

    I honestly would rather debate this in gender-neutral terms not considering our personal contexts, but it seems that unless I bring forth my credentials as a bona-fide feminist, I am going to be discarded based on my gender. So, here goes. I identify as a cisgendered bisexual male. My last relationship was with a FTM transgendered man. Although there are a ton of things I hope to learn from you guys, I also would like the understanding that I am someone who constantly discusses issues of feminism and gender with people of all walks of life on a constant basis. I do not conform to any ideology with regards to gender, and I am therefore not anyone’s enemy. I am here to learn by listening and by asking questions. Every one of you deserves my respect and has something to teach me; I only sincerely hope that the process of teaching me is as respectful and non-offensive as possible.


  23. @JLE

    Anger is the default emotion for men and is verboten for women. If you are serious about making things better, respect women’s anger. It’s extremely legitimate in almost all cases and probably is being expressed after a long period of holding back and self-censorship.

    On the other hand, when the dudes go off, why not suggest to them that the they take a pill and deal with the fear/cowardice or the intellectual/emotional torpor that is usually underneath all the chest thumping? But for the love of Jaysus, don’t “suggest” that us ladies would win more points if we weren’t angry.


  24. Well anger is always better than apathy, no matter the subject. And of course men know that as long as a woman sits in a goopy, apathetic stew all her life, the less they have to worry about. They are just enraged that the womyn in this particular space are not chowing down on that apathy stew. Thankfully for the womyn here, this may actually empower them to do something with their lives. It’s only fully thinking and feeling beings that manage to ascend to that marvelous realm of freedom known as self-actualization.


  25. @lizor

    Im glad you understand where im coming from, and I agree that claiming that anger doesnt help things is contentious. I have never and will never tell any woman or man to stop getting angry because their anger isn’t legitimate. I think its natural to get angry when you have a ton of things to get angry about. Life has given me reasons to get pretty angry too, although I would rather you take me at my word than start telling you about crises in my personal life. On the other hand, it might help, so im not against it.

    What follows is just a thought, not an assertion of truth or a claim that I know how anyone else thinks: Is it possible that there are multiple different reasons for expressing anger?

    One could be a desire to change someone’s mind, another could be anger as a justification of itself, or, to put it another way, “I am mad because I deserve to be mad, and I have a right to be mad at you”.

    Anger as a justification in itself CAN be justified, legitimate, and deserving of respect. However, what if this type of anger considers how it affects others to be irrelevant? As in, “I’m mad, with good reason, and I dont care how that affects you.”

    I personally try and eliminate this anger from my life, as all it has ever done is make my situation worse. I would not ever expect anyone else to do this. When I have conflict with a person, I focus on what we agree on and try and get more of it by appreciating the common ground. When see larger institutional political conflict, I also try and focus on shared values and getting people to care about each other and love one another. American politics are filled with a majority of people who want America to be a happy, prosperous, safe place for everyone. They dont agree on HOW to get there, but I find that acknowledging that most people want the same things generally, people start opening their minds to things they would otherwise reject out of fear.

    Anyway, just some thoughts. This is all highly debatable, and I dont claim to have all the answers. Looking forward to your response (or anyone else reading this)


  26. Dear Jesse,

    If you truly & honestly give a damn about equality, you will spend your free time calling other men out on their misogyny, as opposed to floating around in the bowels of Feminist blogs…telling us how “offended” you are by our anger. Any “negativity” that you are sensing here is a direct result of women living in a male-dominated society. Let’s apply the same rules to you that women must obey, and then we’ll see just how quickly your hippy love-fest mentality disintegrates. Because you are a Person With a Penis, you can live in a fucking nutshell and pretend that men and women share a common struggle; life is very simple for a man…or as Darth Vader would say… “All too easy”.

    What I am most disgusted by is your arrogant assumption that the women here will drop everything they are doing and teach you, Mr. Special Person, what Feminism is all about. Last time I checked, Google is still idiot-proof; simply type “radical feminist theory” into the search field, and then press the Enter key on your keyboard. Annnnd… Bingo! Results!


  27. @Sugarpuss

    Huh. well, I never used the word “offended”, so im not quite sure why you used quotation marks. Also I think it might be a false dichotomy to assume that I can either fight misogyny somewhere else or comment here from time to time. I actually have enough time to reasonably do both, I think. I’m not sure how carefully you read my previous post here, but I think I actually agree with you a lot more than you might think. For example, you just stated that if “the same rules women must obey” were applied to me, my “hippy love-fest mentality” would disintegrate. I agree with you on that, although maybe not to the extent that you meant it. I dont think I have a “hippy love-fest” mentality, I think thats a mischaractarisation[bad spelling, sorry] of my perspective at worst, and at best, an oversimplification used to make me easier to disagree with. Nevertheless, yes, I agree that if I experienced the kind of oppression typical to women, it could very likely make me less calm and more angry. Then again, I have experienced the kind of oppression typical to a victim of rape, incest, familial drug abuse leading to an early murder of my father and a mother so broken by drug abuse that me and my two siblings were taken from her permanently at a young age (not young enough for me not to remember it, however, 12 was kind of a sweet spot for trauma). Sorry for getting personal there, it seemed relevant.

    I do live in a “fucking nutshell”. I created it to protect me at a young age from what was happening to the people I cared about. I suppose you could call it repression, anxiety, or just a general fear of anger. The stress-induced epilepsy I suffered until recently was likely a result of this defence mechanism.

    I do also think men and women share a common struggle. I also, however, agree with you that men and women also have struggles they dont share. I’m not sure if you meant to present this as an either/or situation, but if you did, im not sure whether or not I agree.

    I’m also not assuming you will tell me what Feminism is all about. I am asking direct questions to learn about what people who frequent this website think about those direct questions. Again, you are right: if I wanted to learn more about Feminism as an ideology, I could go read it somewhere. But thats not what im trying to do, I am trying to engage with people and get their unique perspectives.

    I would just like to stress one last time that I do not expect or even want you to be any more or less civil than you want to be. If I could ask for anything (ASK, not demand), it would be simply for you to consider what I have to say with an open mind, and not assume that I harbor any ill will for you. Because as far as I can tell, I dont. Ok, my hands are shaking too much to continue. see you later.


  28. Oh ROTFL! This is too good. The “hands shaking” bit really had me in stitches. I almost feel like I’m being Punk’d.

    Dearest Jesse,

    Thank you for the entertainment. It is plainly obvious that you’re a troll (from 4chan, perhaps?), and just bored enough to come here and garner some much-needed attention. My guess is that all the stores are closed for the evening, and you wont be able to acquire a fresh set of batteries for your Fleshlight till the cock crows. ;)

    On the off-chance that you’re actually serious…dude, you don’t know jack about the typical experience of a rape victim. Male rape victims are pitied, female rape victims are reviled. Even an 11 year-old girl is considered responsible for her own assault. So, yeah, you can save your sob story for somebody who gives a shit, because I sure as hell don’t.


  29. Huh, well I wasnt telling you about my life to get pity, I was trying to give some context. And this isnt something I would ever joke about. I dont really know what to say at this point. The kind of insults you are throwing around (fleshlight? really?) are really getting to me, and I dont know how to deal with this. I really did want to have a respectful discussion, but this doesnt seem like the place. I wish you all the best in life.


  30. Anyone read yesterday’s piece on the feminist blogosphere by Emily Nussbaum at

    Anyone as irritated as me??


  31. just a “hear hear” to these seemingly little issues that we’re told we should just relax about actually being kind of a big deal…


  32. I identify as a genderqueer radical feminist and normally I’m totally up for a bunch of hatin’ on the patriarchy (usually provided by this wonderful blog).. but I must say, reading the comments section really brings down my optimism, for we are no better than the patriarchy if we dehumanize and disrespect other humans.

    Sugerpuss, your behavior here reminds me way too much of men shaming and downsizing the affect assault and abuse has had on women, and that’s really a scary thing to see come from the mind of a feminist. There is a total difference between hating the system and it’s conscious collaborators vs. hating on individuals. This is a case of the latter in my eyes, and it leaves me quite disgusted.


  33. Niea Vickstrom said:

    Sugerpuss, your behavior here reminds me way too much of men shaming and downsizing the affect assault and abuse has had on women […]

    I’m uncertain how you could perceive it in such a way; Jesse isn’t a woman. And attacking a woman in defense of a man is very unfeminist behavior.


  34. Further thoughts on Jesse: To the untrained eye, his behavior may come off as “nice”, but for those who know men inside-out, upside-down & backwards…it is nothing more than garden variety mansplaining. He was engaging in two extremely offensive behaviors:

    1. Telling Women how Feminism should be. Example: whines about anger giving him “anxiety” (so I guess women should stop getting angry because it bothers his arrogant male ass) and the usual crap questions regarding whether or not “negative behavior” is a step in the right direction. Note to the uninformed: anything that calls men out on their BS is considered “negative” by the average dude.

    2. Made the false assumption that Feminists need male allies in order to achieve our goals. Basically, he was doing the whole “convince me” routine. Men created this problem, and directly benefit from it, so how could they possibly be a part of the solution? LOL Only some idiotic third-waver would buy into that craptastic social ponzi scheme.

    Final thoughts: Certain individuals may find my behavior “heartless” or some such. They may also be ignorant enough to suggest that defensive anger is the same as the unjustified anger & hatred that triggered it. When you hear/see someone say “You’re just as bad as the patriarchs!!11!”, you can bet your life savings that they are not a real Feminist, nor do they understand Feminist theory.

    Men & their sympathizers can suck my left ovary.


  35. @Sugarpuss

    If you read over my posts again, they actually address each of these issues you have. I dont need to argue with you because I agree with the problems that you say exist. I see them too, and I want them gone. The only argument I could have with you is over whether the personal claims you made about me are true. At this point, I dont think I could say much to affect your viewpoint on who I am and what I think. Personal attacks wont get us anywhere, and you are free to disagree with that.


  36. Jesse implied that he was leaving.

    Jesse came back.

    Jesse lied, as men so often do.

    What am I going to do with Baby Jesse?

    I think I’ll send him here —->

    Read that, my love. Ball Buster is quite the amazing blogger.

    As for your claim that you agree with me, that’s a load of horse shit, or else you wouldn’t have engaged in the very behaviors that I addressed.


  37. I didn’t say or imply that I was leaving, but maybe I should have. Sorry. I dont know who Rachel is or what you are referring to, there. Anyway, I think I will stop commenting on this article now. I still like this site a lot, and plan on commenting on future posts, im just going to ignore anything inflammatory from Sugarpuss. I dont usually ignore people when they try and talk with me, but the degree of ad hominem attacks make you impossible to communicate with. Bye!


  38. Am trying and failing to think of a way to say this that won’t make me sound like I’m trying to referee. I have read this thread and ended up agreeing with Niea Vickstrøm’s tone, but with Sugarpuss’ points. This confuses me, so Imma write something…

    I would have started making concessions and offering comfort to Jesse when he brought his hardships into the discussion – and hardships they are; I’m not poking fun. If a sentient being’s in pain, no jumping on their head, and all that. So I can see how Niea could interpret Sugarpuss’ unapologetic aggression as cruel.

    But, damn it, whether they were delivered cruelly or otherwise, the points that Sugarpuss brought up are just too important to have to yield to considerateness:

    In a feminist forum, why is it grossly inappropriate for a man to show up and talk about the fact that he has suffered, too? Because it is, at best, irrelevant to the issues discussed here, and at worst a silencing technique. It’s like a white woman going to a NAACP meeting and telling everyone she has sorrows, too, (she’s barren and desperate to have children) so she’s in the same boat with the POC. I’m sure she does have very real sorrows, but that doesn’t make it the same boat! And her sorrows definitely do not qualify her to participate in a NAACP meeting on an equal footing with the POC who are there to talk about how racism affects their lives and what can be done about it. Her sorrows also do not give her the right to tell POC her preferences when it comes to their displays of righteous anger.

    Anger is not a negative in itself. In fact, sometimes fury is the only sensible reaction. Anger is often unjustly accused of being blind and unconstructive. Not so. If more women were to get collectively mad instead of succumbing in loneliness to the forces of evil, we would stand a real chance of revolution.

    However nicely and non-confrontively he put it, everything Jesse has said has been designed to persuade feminists here to be less aggressive, because he prefers it like that. He won’t admit it – I think – and he may not even be aware of it, but that is exactly and exclusively what comes across as his point. Such a point is deeply offensive to people who have gathered in the spirit of fighting against the vast and destructive force that is patriarchy. So sorry if our battle to the death is giving you a headache, Jesse.

    We sholdn’t have to put up with men who are quite willing to endure endless female suffering in return for their own peace of mind. We do put up with them everywhere else because we have no choice, but here?

    Funny how male commenters always feel the need to sing the ole “Why can’t we all just get along”. I’ll tell you why, Jesse, and this goes out to the countless other men who have asked the same thing: because women are the victims of an ongoing crime. Ongoing, you understand? We are being punished for not being what you are, namely a man. This situation makes us disinclined to take your advice on what to do and how to feel about it.

    It’s no use complaining to women about the sexes being at war with each other, when what it really is and ever has been is men waging war on women. A precious few women are acting in self-defence, and not a moment too soon. Some might say a few millennia too late, in fact. And when I say ‘acting’, I of course mean ‘raising our voices and coming together in defiance of oppression’. Note that we are not in fact taking up arms. Why are women’s angry words treated as if they were acts of violence?

    If Jesse likes peace and harmony so much, he should tell other men to lay off with the violent misogyny already.


  39. Jesse said:

    I didn’t say or imply that I was leaving […]


    On October 30th, in a post up-thread, Jesse said:

    I really did want to have a respectful discussion, but this doesnt seem like the place. I wish you all the best in life.

    That sounds like a parting speech to me, cowboy. The proof is in the pudding…and it’s bad form to blatantly lie when the pudding is on the same fucking page.

    So, did you read the blog I linked to? Odd that you had no comment about it.


  40. “Why are women’s angry words treated as if they were acts of violence?”

    Well Fede, I think that’s because he possesses the secret and ancient knowledge that women can kill people with their minds :D Why, that’s just exactly what I did the other day! All my arch enemies perished at once.

    Haha Sugarpuss! I love ad hominem attacks. Bring them on! But instead of s’mores, I like being attacked with M&Ms :) That is what I call sexy fun!


  41. @ Fede: Well said. Articulated in a way that I currently lack the patience for, due to being in snap mode for the last week or so. :D


  42. @Sugarpuss: Thank you! I always end up being fairly long-winded when I try to articulate things myself, but I’m glad it made sense to you.
    As for patience, well… it’s sometimes overrated. Still, I guess I’m in the more patient mode this week. :)


  43. Yes it is a great post. And this was a very good point “…because women are the victims of an ongoing crime.” I’m so glad there are women here who are not afraid of exposing the continuing systemic abuses of the patriarchy, and with such elegance and punch.


  44. @Fede

    Thats definitely worth thinking about. Thanks for your perspective. I think I am going to re-read your post a few times over the next few weeks before I shoot my mouth off about it, theres some good stuff in there.

    I really was going to leave! I swear! There must be something i’m enjoying here. I think I might be learning something…


  45. Hecate said:

    Haha Sugarpuss! I love ad hominem attacks. Bring them on! But instead of s’mores, I like being attacked with M&Ms :) That is what I call sexy fun!

    Ugh! I bought a bag of those (the peanut variety) to give to the trick-or-treaters, and for the second year in a row, not one child entered the neighborhood (there are families here, but they go elsewhere!), so I got stuck with the candy. Ate them. Got sick. Will never buy again.


  46. Jesse said:

    I think I am going to re-read your post a few times over the next few weeks before I shoot my mouth off about it […]

    How about not shooting your mouth off at all? The subject of whether or not women have a right to get angry is NOT up for debate, understand? ‘Cause, ya know, women are human & stuff like that.

    Did you read that blog?


  47. @Hecate: Congrats on the very handy Brain-Ray of Death! And thanks.

    @Jesse: You’re welcome. I’m glad you found food for thought in it.

    “I really was going to leave! I swear!”
    With regard to the choice between continuing the discussion or leaving, let us not forget the third option: staying to lurk. Highly recommended for the kind of person you seem to be; the kind that enjoys learning. To appropriate an old saying:

    A man’s place is in a feminist forum, listening. :)


  48. @ Sugarpuss :D Yes I know, they are not the highest quality chocolate, but at certain times of the month, they do just fine – the plain ones.

    Now the real question is, what makes you feel more sick? Peanut M&Ms, or the thought of Jesse jacking off and hanging around here indefinitely? He’s getting some sort of weird thrill being here. I guess the idea of trying to shut up radfems and turn them into cuddly bunnies is even more exciting to him than porn…


  49. Nine, could you suggest a few good books on feminism?

    Also, thank you so much for your blog. It has been very important for me.


  50. Hi Sara,

    This is one of my all-time favorites – a classic:

    See, when I was all of 11 years old, I learned that in some parts of the world, it was considered normal and right to just hack a female’s clitoris off, right about at that age, too. The very idea that in a man’s world, a female body could be so violated and abused without the slightest consideration infuriated me to the depths of my soul.

    Since I can remember, I have always kept my ears wide open, mostly as a means of self protection. So much so that a former high school classmate viciously labeled me an ‘evil sponge.’ That made me even more determined to hone my sensitive radar. Awareness is power after all, and people will resent you for it.

    When I was 8 years old, I overheard my grandmother very lightly scolding my grandfather after he’d sexually abused me. But her condemnation of me was very harsh indeed. She said “You know ______, you really shouldn’t do that. You know what girls like that get up to when they grow up.” As young as I was, I know she meant to say that she felt I would grow up to be a prostitute. Aren’t human beings just so charming that way? Blame the victim and just let the evil flourish…

    Always read (voraciously), always keep those precious ears, eyes and mind wide open and scarily alert. People will hate that you are putting that shield of protection around yourself. Well, screw them. There are more psychic vampires out there than there are healers and do-gooders.

    Somehow, I think reading Marilyn’s book at such a young age protected me from some very stupid decisions, like marrying some dumb frat/jock, as I noticed several of my college classmates doing. She attuned, informed and prepared me for what I was about to go up against in the big, bad world, and validated my anger towards my abusers. I’ll always be grateful to her and other feminists for that.

    Would definitely love to see any books ND has to recommend too!


  51. Also for more fun, light reading and if you like sci-fi, I recommend this:

    Considering it’s penned by a male, it has a surprisingly feminist message. I think I’ve probably mentioned it here before. Actually, many of the female characters in his novels are empowered, and not at all uncomfortable around technology, using it very much to their advantage and in some pretty novel and unexpected ways. Ok, so my nerd side is showing! :D Also, in his novel ‘Snow Crash,’ which is also pretty good, there’s a bit about a hulky dude who needed to have ‘poor impulse control’ tattooed on his forehead as a warning to more civilized folk. Pretty funny stuff. In fact, that character is a great parody of macho culture.


  52. Hi Sara, I think that’s a great idea, getting some book titles! I do not assume to answer your request on NineDeuce’s behalf, but here are a few titles that I’ve read that are great:

    Feminist Theory: From Margin to Center and Outlaw Culture by bell hooks

    Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine (debunking the ‘science’ behind the gender myth)

    Right-Wing Women, Intercourse and Heartbreak by Andrea Dworkin

    The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard (proving the state of inequality in the UK)


  53. Thank you all for the recomendations :)
    I will definitely check out those books.

    Hecate, I’m really sorry about what happened to you. And the victim blaming is just disgusting. And, unfortunately, so common. I’m quite aware of things now, since I started developing my critical thinking a couple of years ago, and want to become even more aware.


    1. Sara – I’d also recommend Intercourse and Pornography by Andrea Dworkin, and Feminism Unmodified by Catharine MacKinnon (a collection of speeches that make her ideas a little more accessible than they tend to be in her academic writing). I’m not quite sure what to recommend beyond those as I don’t know where your specific interests lie or what you have already read. If you let me know (either here or via e-mail), I can make additional recommendations.


  54. Thank you for your sympathy, Sara. It’s so appreciated. I’m sure you have educated yourself to a great extent on these issues. Of course, one can never get enough of learning, and that certainly includes me as well. It’s exciting to see what other radfems have been reading up on.


  55. The War Against Women is an excellent book choice, just as relevant as ever. Hecate, it’s heartbreaking to hear your grandmother’s attitude toward the abuse, it never ceases to completely blow me away that anyone, let alone someone you are supposed to trust and look to for protection, would treat a child that way. I look at my nieces and nephews and I would know I would die to protect them, literally. You are a strong and brave woman and you really inspire me, the world is a better place with people like you in it. It gives me hope for the human race.

    I have some recommendations:

    The Holdfast Chronicles by Suzy Mckee Charnas
    Here Come The Brides by Jaclyn Geller
    Beauty Bites Beast: Awakening the Warrior Within Women and Girls By Ellen B. Snortland
    Sexual Politics by Kate Millett
    The Dirty Weekend by Helen Zahavi (novel)
    Les Guérillères by Monique Wittig


  56. Thank you ever so much gracemargaret :) Thankfully, I think most people know in their gut how wrong such a scenario is. I am honored to meet women here who have been through similar struggles and somehow managed to keep it together and in many cases, thrive.

    That looks like a fantastic book list. We have to do these recommendations more often!

    I have so enjoyed your posts, as well as those of several other commenters. It’s definitely something else to add to my list of things to be thankful for this holiday ;)


  57. Eric said:

    Am I allowed to call Jesse a patronizing, mansplaining ass skittle on here?

    Yes, please.

    It’s times like this when I yearn for a sleazy, raging, flea-bitten misogynist dog; at least they are honest. Guys like Jesse are the biggest threat to women, IMHO. Lots of Feminists fall for the condescending nicey-nice guy routine, and then they welcome douchebags like Jesse into the fold without realizing how very dangerous they are.

    I like my assholes straight-up, not dipped in honey.


  58. True that, Sugarpuss. My sister recently dated a guy who for all intents and purposes seemed a decent and polite guy, but he did a 180 and called her a ‘male basher’ because she wanted to cool down the sexual activity a bit, being as they just started seeing each other. Yes, even the ‘nice guy’ wants a sex doll that’s available to him 24/7. As soon as she objects in the slightest, she’s out and she’s a ‘man hater.’

    Taking the no-nonsense approach in life works better for me too, if only because it eliminates the possibility that I’ll have to deal with goofy, flaky, hipster, hippie types. My experience is that they tend to be the wolf in sheepish clothing. They’re often the first to tell you you’re a horrible human being for taking a more direct approach, then they go back to having sex with their first cousin/ sister/ brother/ altar boy or what have you…

    I also cannot abide faux-sentimental types. Even Henry Miller recognized Walt Disney as the ‘master of nightmares.’


  59. Here’s the actual Miller quote. I think it’s a good one. Though I have my criticisms of him, I think he made some smart cultural observations:

    “Walt Disney…is the master of the nightmare…Disney works fast—like greased lightning. That’s how we’ll all operate soon. What we dream we become. We’ll get the knack of it soon. We’ll learn how to annihilate the whole planet in the wink of an eye—just wait and see”

    – Henry Miller, ‘The Air-Conditioned Nightmare’


  60. I’ve only read one book on feminism: “Female Chauvinist Pigs” by Ariel Levy. Altough I am interested in books about feminism in general, right now I prefer those that analyze women’s representations in the media and pop culture.


  61. Sara, one of the books I mentioned, namely Outlaw Culture by bell hooks, comprises anti-racist and feminist analyses of popular culture.


  62. @ Sara, actually (sadly) Mary Wollstonecraft has a lot of very relevant observations. You can find lots of writing from and about her on the web.


  63. “There is a reason that little boys loathe pink while little girls either like or have neutral feelings about blue. There is also a reason that boys put “NO GIRLS ALLOWED” signs on their hideouts while little girls don’t shun boys — and then only do so half-heartedly — until they perceive that boys dislike them and react accordingly.”

    Will the majority of people ever get that his gender binary is indoctrinated and culturally influenced??

    I see some parents start to raise their kids “genderless”…..What do you people think of that?

    I posted on an internet forum a few days ago, the topic was “is porn in a relationship wrong” They were going more after me then some guy who said he can confidentally say that women have a lower sex drive then men, and that we should see porn as our friend and accept it, he also said that porn shouldnt be viewed in a relationship wich was actually contradictory to the above mentioned. Anyways my point is, that the women ( some of them were actually against porn in a relationship) in that thread spend more time going against me and made me out to be hysterical and hormonal nutjob whilst he got a free pass.

    Nine Deuce has wrote about this before, we women destroy ourselfs, patriarchy is the perfect machine that goes against women. But men seem to increasingly get more afraid, I have noticed that. Also I dont think they could handle all the pressure we are handling, on a different site they where shocked that women like gay porn, then some dude claimed that even women would like to look more at women then men, without being bisexual or lesbian because women just are nicer to look at. I strongly disagreed, and it turned out that many women actually also like 2 men getting at it.

    Men, have created this image in their fucking heads that we are not as sexual, and visual, they couldnt even get why women would read gay erotica (duh)…. I think its denial because if they would actually accept that we also like to fuck and oggle and see men naked, they would be alot more aware of how they look and maybe more jealous in general. Men created that slutshaming because for one that would make their wifes nice and loyal and 2 because they could never handle our sex drive.

    Men could never pull off being women, and that crap that women are more sensitive? how the fuck is that?? my bf flinhces like a fish if he has to remove some hairs, I do it on my entire legs, no way he could do it, how would men handle birth?? I dont even thin men could handle my period pains.

    And I hate this new culture of MRA, prettending that they are the victims, just like christians with that Christmas war bullshit.

    To any men reading this, I like to fuck that doesnt make me a slut so fuck your slutshaming, and I have always had a higher sex drive then any of my boyfriends or any man I slept with. And women also like naked men and we are just as visual.


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