Strip your way to sexual objecthood with Flirty Girl Fitness!

Am I late on this one? Oh well, I don’t care. I’ve been on break for a few weeks and I’ve been hanging out in Atlanta with Davetavius, which means I’ve been watching WAY more cable than usual since I have no cable in New York. We watch a lot of MTV because, let’s face it, what channel is more entertaining than MTV for people whose chief source of entertainment comes from laughing at others’ expense? And what other network can boast a show like Jersey Shore? I mean, it’s almost better than the first season of Tool Academy (the second season was a serious embarrassment to the franchise). For those of you fools who aren’t watching Jersey Shore, it’s a show about eight people most people (the people on the show included) would call guidos partying at the Jersey Shore for a summer. In other words, it’s Real World: Jersey Shore with narrower casting parameters. The people on the show are unbelievable. They’re such caricatures of themselves and of everything people think about New Jersey that I’m seriously amazed that they exist and that only one of them is actually from New Jersey. They spray their tans on, they douse themselves in cosmetics and hair products, and they spend hours a day at the gym despite being on vacation. The men, that is. The women are less vain than the men, but they still clearly drop a lot of coin on hair extensions, make-up, booty shorts, and plastic surgery.

A few of my favorite elements:

  • Snooki, informing the show’s producers of the qualities her ideal mate would possess, says she’s looking for a “juice-head” who is “half nice guy, half jerk-off.” That’s right. She’s actually seeking a jerk-0ff  ‘roid monkey.
  • J-Woww’s completely insane fake breasts. She looks like she’s had soup bowls implanted in her chest.
  • J-Woww’s style. First of all, she calls herself J-Woww. I do not believe for one second that someone else gave her that nickname. Second, she dresses like a member of the band Vixen (and I mean “Edge of a Broken Heart” Vixen, not whatever the hell they’re doing now, which I’m sure is the opposite of cool).  Half the time, that is. The other half of the time, she looks like a heroin addict on her way to a creative loungewear fashion contest.
  • The Situation. Again, a self-applied nickname. One of the cast members’ name is Mike, but he calls himself The Situation, and so does everyone else. I’m pretty mad I didn’t think of making my friends call me The Situation first, but how about you all start calling me Integri-T? I mean it, dude. No one is ever allowed to call me Nine Deuce again. But back to The Situation – who makes up their own nickname? I’m pretty sure the whole point of nicknames is that they’re affectionate appellations friends bestow upon one, not a dorky attempt at turning oneself into a brand.
  • MTV: the network that doesn’t condone violence against women in bars (anymore). For the first three episodes of the show, MTV played a set of clips from upcoming episodes which included footage of some dude cold-cocking Snooki. It was one of the most jarring things I’ve ever seen on video, and I was aghast that MTV would stoop so low as to use it to promote a show. I suppose it’s pretty silly of me to be surprised at anything MTV does (remember the Ikki twins?), but this shit was really disturbing. Cut to the fourth episode in which the incident actually occurs, and MTV blacks the scene out. We see the guy getting rowdy, we see a black screen, then we see Snooki lying on the ground crying. And not only has MTV all of a sudden decided that showing a man punch a woman dead in the face isn’t kosher, but they’ve also taken it upon themselves to speak out against violence against women with an on-screen message at show’s end reminding us that hitting women isn’t OK. Now that they’ve realized that using real, actual, live violence against women to up ratings is still a bit too much for the average viewer (for now at least), that is.
  • House music. Everyone in the house loves house music in ways that bewilder and fascinate. For example, the men get together and beat their fists on the ground at dance clubs while listening to house music, explaining that the beat is hitting them so hard that they have to beat its ass in return. I swear. Another example: all of the members of the house seem to like to get together on the dance floor and “battle.” And by battle I do not mean anything like what one sees on America’s Best Dance Crew, I mean they all try to win a contest the objective of which seems to be to create the most hilarious combination of simulated sex and the kind of acrobatics one normally only sees on playgrounds. Battling is the opposite of sexual, however, as J-Woww makes clear when her boyfriend accuses her of having behaved inappropriately with another dude at the club the night before. She replies,”It was just house. It wasn’t R&B, it was HOUSE. We were battling all night.” When her boyfriend remains dubious, J-Woww calls Snooki to the phone to back up her story. Snooki confirms that they were indeed battling to house music, and that nothing untoward could thus have occurred. Remember that next time someone accuses you of cheating.
  • Sammi, who might be the biggest asshole alive, goes by the nickname Sweetheart, and can be heard during the intro credits referring to herself as “the sweetest bitch you’ll ever meet.”
  • Everyone on the show is scheming and plotting to get someone to fuck them at nearly every moment, but no one ever scores. It’s bizarre and really kind of funny. Pauly D and The Situation go out every night in search of poontang, only to get “blocked” by their roommates, friends of the women they’re trying to trick into bed, etc. The only people in the house getting any action are Sammi and Ronnie, who are in a relationship with each other, which is hilarious because Pauly D and The Situation are constantly giving Ronnie a hard time for not being out at the club with them trying to score.

I could go on, but I won’t. The show is unbelievable. I strongly suspect that the producers intend for it to serve as a lesson and a warning about where our image obsession, affection for porn, and vapid materialism are taking us. If not, it’s still really funny despite being fairly terrifying. I vote you watch it.

What does all of this Jersey Shore business have to do with the post title, you ask? Nothing, except for the fact that I was watching Jersey Shore when I saw the commercial I’m about to share with you (and except for the fact that the show and the product in this commercial both exist within the patriarchal matrix — starring Keanu Reeves).

Sigh. I guess I’d like to commend the people who schedule the ads for MTV. I can’t think of a more perfect fit between show and commercial than Flirty Girl Fitness and Jersey Shore. Except maybe Manswers and Girls Gone Wild.

Flirty Girl Fitness, for those of you who can’t watch the video or don’t want to, is a series of fitness videos that teach women how to dance like strippers while burning fat. One volume, “Booty Beat,” instructs viewers in the art of “sexy” music video dancing, while another, “Chair Dance,” outlines the finer points of humping a chair. But the real selling point is the Flirty Girl Fitness Pole, which you can try in your own home for only $1! The kick-ass cardio strip workout that one used to have to pay big bucks for at Crunch Fitness can now be yours for only $19.99 plus the $1 pole try-out fee!

The ad presents us with about 20 women who likely spend more time per day working out than they spend in a week eating swiveling their pelvises to shitty dance music (clearly NOT house, to be sure), regurgitating Britney Spears dance moves, rubbing their pubic bones on chairs, sticking their asses in the air, and wrapping themselves around poles. Between those clips are interviews with actual Flirty Girl Fitness users along with their before and after photos. We don’t, however, see any footage of anyone trying the workout for the first time. Hmm. Interesting.  I wonder why that might be? Well, I suppose it could have something to do with the clear message in the commercial: the women in the before pictures are disgusting, the opposite of sexy, useless bags of fat that need to drop 40 pounds and learn how to fuck inanimate objects if they want any sexual attention, but they need to do so in private, because no one wants to have to deal with a woman whose BMI is over 3 and who hasn’t already mastered the booty blast. Not to worry, though, fatty — if you spend a few bucks and several months on this fitness program, soon dudes everywhere will do you the gracious favor of actually wanting to see you degrade yourself for their bonerial pleasure.

Well, fuck. I give up. If this product is filling an actual demand, we’re hosed. The men have won and it’s time to pack it in, throw in the towel, gather up our toys, whatever, and go the fuck home. It’s funny. I’ve always thought women were smarter than men, but men must be geniuses if they’ve convinced this many women that stripping is fun, empowering, cool, good exercise, or whatever the fuck else is going through the minds of those who order this product. It’s basically the equivalent of tricking women into thinking ingesting semen is a good nutritional move, for fuck’s sake, and the fact that anyone has fallen for it makes me want to weep/puke for womankind.

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143 thoughts on “Strip your way to sexual objecthood with Flirty Girl Fitness!

  1. Seriously, why are we trying to beat them when they’ve already won this round? I say we just form little convents and kick ass all across the globe until womin get the freedom and respect they deserve. Nothing else seems to have worked other than direct action.


  2. @NineDeuce/”Integri-T”(hahaha) It sure did. So I am definitely going to have to check this one out. Seriously though, I know someone who got something like this AND uses it, so Imaginary’s idea is sounding more and more appealing everyday.


    That movie is awesome


  3. ND,

    Your recap of Jersey Shore was incredible, you have a talent. I too was actually very jealous when I found out somebody got away with calling themselves “The Situation”.


  4. Integri-T – thank you for making me laugh and snort my coffee onto my keyboard this morning. The other people in my office may be looking at me like I’m crazy but it was so worth it. This stuff is thoroughly depressing but you make it funny.


  5. Er, Integri-T, stripperiffic dancing has been touted as exercise for ages.

    There is some truth to it…holding yourself upside down by grabbing a pole with your thighs and writhing would require quite some fitness, but it’s surprising how many people pretend that’s the reason for doing it.


  6. “It is a good workout.
    Like it or not, it does count as cardio.”

    Playing ‘chicken’ on the motorway probably gets your heart rate up too.

    Great to see you back, Nine. I’ve missed your dishing out the shit.


  7. Man, now I don’t even have to watch Jersey Shore to get the goodness. But I know that if I was still in college I would be watching that shit non-stop. ‘Cause that’s what I lived on when I was in college, shitty MTV and VH1 reality tv. It made homework so much more fun. (Of course that was probably an effect of never having cable before I got to college. Now that I’m graduated and have cable in my own house I find I almost never watch it.)

    And those types of DVDs and workouts have been around for quite a while. I remember sophomore year of college having some friends who were planning on going to one of their rooms and do Carmen Electra’s strip workout. I had to pass. I think I had Latin homework and the time and, honestly, translating The Aeneid sounded much more fun than practicing stripping. And now a days I prefer my hour long work out of Skip-It and hula-hooping while watching Dexter or whatever show happens to be on or that I have on DVD. MUCH better than “sexy” dancing. :)


  8. Dear all – It has come to my attention that a few people have a problem with the use of the word “guido.” My word choice/diction was off. It said “people most of us would call guidos.” I don’t call people guidos, nor do my friends, so I shouldn’t have said that. The people on the show, however, do call themselves guidos and guidettes, so I picked the term up from there. I am also familiar with the appellation as applied to the subculture the people on the show belong to, so I know a lot of people might use it in that sense. Still, I don’t, so I’ve changed the wording.


  9. I’m pretty mad I didn’t think of making my friends call me The Situation first, but how about you all start calling me Integri-T? I mean it, dude. No one is ever allowed to call me Nine Deuce again. But back to The Situation – who makes up their own nickname? I’m pretty sure the whole point of nicknames is that they’re affectionate appellations friends bestow upon one, not a dorky attempt at turning oneself into a brand.

    Which would of course make you the IT GIRL!1 and I love it, er you.

    ~a feminazi type person :P


  10. I have to agree that poles do provide an excellent form of exercise. I have one in my living room…that’s carpeted and has the added benefit of platforms of varying sizes and shapes. My girls get an awesome work out scampering up and down the pole, which from now on shall be dubbed “kitty girl fitness” :-D

    Thanks for the heads-up about the ironic entertainment value of Jersey Shore. I might just have to check it out now.


  11. okay eek – feel free to tell me to eff off, as I know that people who comment the first (not sure if it actually is my first time commenting here though – thanks short term memory fail!) time on my blog only when they’re moved to object to something I said can irritate me (though not necessarily so)…point being –

    I am for a number of reasons grossed out by the *pressure* on all women to look and act as sexually avaiable and satisfying to males as possible, and I shrug in agreement that this kind of thing – like what seems like most of every goddamn thing these days – does that.

    But it makes me uncomfortable, ND, when you a) seem to be making fun of the Jersey Shore women for things like in your view a crappy implant job and bad fashion sense, because while I personally am often a mean person myself, I don’t think insulting someone’s physicality (which is not, in itself, something that harms others, versus some pressures that again we all face that may influence how they ended up with their physicality) is feminist critique.

    Then the other thing is – okay in my dream universe, Ren Ev would talk about the things *I* want her to talk about when it comes to the sex industry (Ren I say that with sarcasm about myself, not a complaint against you actually, as I accept our differences), but in this universe, it’s not like I don’t understand why she might not like what she perceives as dismissiveness around the actual exercise involved in stripping, as someone who has stripped. And she and I used to get on each others’ nerves a lot, so I do also understand that possible mutual reaction between people here and Ren, but answering the truth (which she stated simply and is true) because it got on your nerves, by sarcastically joking that there is anything comparable between stripping and running from gang rapists or playing chicken in a car (!) – that doesn’t feel fair to me.

    Also, in addition to first time disagreeable comments being irritating, I would like to acknowledge that my run-on sentences may push this over the top in terms of tolerability. I am probably uncommonly thick skinned so telling me to eff off or disagreeing back with me or whatever will not start a blog war, is all I’m saying.


  12. I read that 9-2 was not criticizing the women’s physical selves so much as their choices, suggesting implicitly that perhaps the ladies of Jersey Shore were making decisions based more on cultural and media expectations than upon their own real desires. Which is something most of us do.
    Once we view a certain thing so many times, we start to believe that we want it — which is the reason that so many men insist that women who aren’t hairless are ugly, and that many women, such as myself, have anorexia. I doubt that men ”in the wild” will harass and catcall women who don’t shave, and likewise if I had been raised feral or in a vacuum I would not wish to starve myself to the point of hallucination ”for fun.” And there are certainly no wild humans who have spray-on tans. So on and so forth.

    Also, to continue using myself as an example — while one could at this point argue that my eating disorder is indeed pathological, it is to some extent a ”choice” that I do in fact make. So if 9-2 wrote a post about anorexia, I would not feel personally affronted and tell her she just didn’t UNDERSTAND my CHOICE and FEMINISM is all about CHOICE, why is she TAKING AWAY MY EMPOWERMENT.
    She isn’t. She’s pointing out a cultural phenomenon, as is her want to do.

    These are not hard concepts and I don’t know why people feel the need to argue it.


  13. Also — while perhaps the term ”guido” is rather cringe-worthy, until yesterday, I for one just thought it described the subculture of guys from Jersey who act super-porntastic and sleazy,
    the kind who comes to Williamsburg on weekends to pick up ”hot” ”artist girls” of the sort who buy their outfits entirely from boutiques that stay in business by re-appropriating and repackaging the concept of ”cool” —

    the kind of guys whose Axe body spray and misogyny and stupid running commentary creates a noxious cloud around them that I can smell and sense before they even roll up in their shitty Datsuns or come spilling out of the Bedford Avenue ”L” stop in their frat-boy/faux-hipster outfits, sneer and bark at me as if I were a dog, and call my best friend ‘faggot” before hanging out on the corner loudly giving every passing female a numerical rating.

    In other words, I thought it was a term that describes a type of personality, much like the term ”hipster” does. Didn’t even know it specifically meant men of Italian descent. The point is, while it references an ethnic identity, and I in no way advocate its usage, it seems to be more attached to a subcultural identity in modern parlance. A subculture that has a weird TV show now.


  14. I was going to post earlier and say what Kristyn said. Guido has definitely taken on new meaning. I don’t think of anyone but the type she nailed down when I hear the word now.


  15. Joan Kelly, while may be true that pole-dancing is a good workout, Ren’s comment seemed deliberately obtuse. I don’t think anyone here doubts that it has value as physical exercise and is likely a difficult skill to learn.

    But that wasn’t the point of the post, which is why Ren’s comment received the responses that it did . The point was that it’s objectifying and demeaning. There are many, many challenging ways to exercise the body. Not all of them are positive.


  16. ” My girls get an awesome work out scampering up and down the pole, which from now on shall be dubbed “kitty girl fitness” :-D”

    Dude, holy shit. Holy. Fucking. Shit. I’m speechless.

    Also, seriously wtf is a guido? Is this some crazy American slang I’m just not getting?


  17. Jesus. Why yes, there are tons of forms of cardio fitness. All of them get the blood going and heart rate up…however, anyone who wants…ahem…to suggest that stripping is not good exercise (everything else aside, merely good exercise) is- flat out- wrong. That’s it, that’s all I was saying. Sorry for busting up the good old fashioned feminist rant by pointing out that fact.


  18. That’s it, we have the perfect way to lose weight: go work at a vegan strip club! (joke, ah my poor brains)

    Berryblade, I had to look it up. Wikipedia might be wrong on facts, but it’s nice to have it as a measure of popular consensus.

    But 92, is this really that much worse in effect than the rest of the weight-loss schemes aimed at women? I mean, they’re everywhere sending the message “be more f***able”, so most women have internalized this so much that they may not realize this is the only reason they want to be underweight. Some people and ads are saying “skinny=healthy”, though, and it’s harder to argue with that with “you’re hurting yourself for sexism”. Maybe the very lack of subtlety of this ad will shake a bunch of women out of the “healthy” illusion, so not everyone’s worse off! There are so many ads on weight that women have to be skeptical of most of them anyway, right? Wishful thinking I suppose.

    This is quite tangential, but I think it’s a great shame that poles are already so widely associated with stripping, which might make them better not to have on kids’ playgrounds if Wikipedia’s right that pole dancing as exercise is catching on. I find real poles great fun to shinny up or slide down, which is very good exercise and allows one to get to the top of large structures like swingsets for a view; no-one told me this looked sexual until age 13 when someone accused me of “humping” a pole.


  19. Ok, because I was recently discusssing it myself, I think it’s useful to remind everyone of reductio ad Hitlerum. To borrow from Dikiepedia.

    “It is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context. Hence this fallacy fails to examine the claim on its merit.”

    In other words – context matters. The usual one that this refers to is when someone is using a phrase that has origin x, but now has meaning y, in complete ignorance of origin x, back in the fifteenth/nineteenth/1st century AD/3000 years BC.

    In other words, I think it’s fair to assess words/phenomena in their current cultural context and not be expected to know their original meaning. Because we can all see what happens when you start arguing about the meaning of words.

    Having said that, I have no idea what Guido means.


  20. Oh and re the idea that you can lose two pant sizes without doing ‘boring exercise’, you can’t. That simple. You WILL know you’re working out if you’re going to that much exercise. Nobody’s body ‘just changes’. Any more than you can have a diet where you can eat whatever you want.


  21. Yeah…”guido”? I don’t think I’ve ever heard that, excepting as an alternative first name of the person better known as Guy Fawkes.


  22. May I suggest wing chun kung fu instead? Keeps you fit, tones your body, makes you able to run from rapists and helps you defeat those physically stronger than you. You don’t have to wear ridiculous heels that can break your ankles- you can wear good old trainers. And you look wicked cool while sparring. Brings up your confidence in your own integrity and personal independence. Also teaches you humility and to control your own power.

    All in all- ideal.


  23. It is a good workout.
    Like it or not, it does count as cardio.

    Christ almighty. Digging a friggin’ bomb shelter is a good cardio workout. So is almost any martial art.

    Implying that anyone is “dislikes” having to admit to the cardio benefits of shilling for porn-turds is a pretty desperate defense of a pathetic activity.

    As for insulting someone’s “physicality”, by pointing to the absurdity of giant implants, you may want to check a basic anatomy text. The giant silicon blobs in these women’s chests have nothing to do with their “physicality”. They are man-made sacks of synthetic compound placed thusly for porn-turds to gawp at and play with.

    It’s pretty depressing that we are so entirely alienated from our bodies that we cannot differentiate a practice that alienates the body like pole humping, from one that integrates body, mind and spirit… (like, er, maybe dancing to music that you love?); or plastic modifications that make us look like fuck-bots from our actual unique (and miraculous) physicality.

    If anyone wants me I’ll be in the basement with a bottle of single malt.


  24. “anyone who wants…ahem…to suggest that stripping is not good exercise (everything else aside, merely good exercise) is- flat out- wrong.”

    Technically, stripping means getting from clothed to naked. Not much calorie burning unless you are swaddled like a mummy. Or decide to couple it with pornified acrobatics (which can, obviously, burn calories and exercise the cardio-vascular system).

    The only time being naked in and of itself burns significant calories is if you happen to be in sub-zero temperatures. But of course it can also kill you.

    And I don’t think one single person here based their feminist critique on the notion that pole humping is anaerobic.

    Sorry Ren, but you are going to have to respond to what is actually written with a defensible position before you can successfully “bust up the good old fashioned feminist rant”.

    Laurelin: I second that.


  25. Guy Fawlkes styled himself ‘Guido’, in solidarity with some Spanish revolutionaries. His confession in the Tower of London is signed ‘Guido Fawlkes’.

    Come to think if it, in the painting of the conspirators in Charing Cross station has one figure labelled ‘Guido’.

    Random useless knowledge of the day, folks.


  26. Plain T shirts are ‘working class clothing’? I’m even more confused. Do middle class people only wear T shirts with motifs?


    1. I’m middle class, and I’m all about plain white t-shirts. Maybe I’m a poser, like those kids in southern California who pretend to be working class Englishmen and become West Ham fans because they like some lame punk band?


  27. Some of the comments on martial arts are interesting. I like martial arts, and they are great for excerise and building self discipline…but one could argue that martial arts and boxing- both good exercise- have also been oddly twisted or perverted from their purest forms by things like UFC….yes, total tangent, for which I appoligize, but a thought.


    1. I’d agree with that. Not only have martial arts been corrupted by UFC, but MMA has also introduced misogyny where none existed before. That’s what you get when you mix the macho bullshit of western culture with anything, I guess.


  28. lizor — what you wrote, exactly.

    I also feel weird that Andrew agrees with something I said.
    It’s probably bad to use the word ”guido” because it originally refers to an ethnic origin. So maybe we should think up a new word for this subset of humanity, if you can call it as much.


  29. in heteropatriarchy, flirting with men is so pleasurable, i do it even when no men are present. just thinking about the male gaze while i do my flirty fitness moves is enough enjoyment to last a whole night. all i do is look at myself in the mirror and think mmmmm… men sure will want my hot heteropatriarchally-approved bod. see, i’m “sexual” like that. i own “my” “sexuality”. you can own yours too, ladies. just order the flirty fitness girl video, and follow it as closely as possible. in no time, you too can discover “your” “sexuality” the way I have.


  30. “Fitness pole”? Give me a break. “Dancing pole” I can understand, but “fitness pole”?

    I don’t understand the point. It’s not like they’re pretending that these moves aren’t based on stripteases. So why pretend like the pole itself is fitness-related?


  31. lizor:

    by definition, yes, it is taking off ones clothes. In practice, this is often done whilst music is playing and one is dancing and doing various acrobatic moves- thus it does become something which burns calories and works the muscles, much like other forms of clothed dancing. That is my point- that’s it- nothing sinister, nothing saying that anyone has to like stripping at all- I’m just saying as it is done in most settings- it is exercise.

    ND: I’ve noted over the last few years there have been an increasing number of women getting involved in both professional MMA and taking it in gyms- curious if you have any thoughts on that.


    1. I think MMA is wack all around. I’m not into violence for violence’s sake, and I don’t celebrate every dumb thing women do to emulate men. Feminism isn’t about being just like men, especially when what men are doing is stupid.


  32. Really? You have people pretending to support West Ham? Which punk band?

    Nine Deuce you are destroying my fondly held belief that the US is full of right wing Christians with scarily blow dried hair.


    1. It’s a few lame punk bands, really. There’s just this dumb general association of working class Englishness with punkness. It’s bizarre. I was thinking the other day that it would be really funny if the next trend in the suburbs of the UK was to act like an American redneck.


  33. To everyone except for Ren:

    To the others, this product made me think – is it just me, or is there something kind of poetic about substituting a stripper pole for an iron pipe / baseball bat?

    To Ren:

    “Jesus. Why yes, there are tons of forms of cardio fitness. All of them get the blood going and heart rate up…however, anyone who wants…ahem…to suggest that stripping is not good exercise (everything else aside, merely good exercise) is- flat out- wrong. That’s it, that’s all I was saying. Sorry for busting up the good old fashioned feminist rant by pointing out that fact.”


    *** privilege detected!!!
    *** vacuous truth warning
    *** infringement correction dialogue aborting
    *** resources redirected, please review log
    Warning: your dialogue has been infected with privilege. Resources redirected to preserve existing rights integrity; attempt to reclaim infringed dignity / rights may have failed. Please run CheckSelf on option “Entitlement” to identify the specific cause of this error.

    Send report? y/n

    Thank you on behalf of All Feminist Theory for clearing this up. After all, it is mandatory that feminist discourse stop and address absolutely every facet of circumstance surrounding the presented argument regardless of how trivial, self-evident, self-explanatory, self-referential, or irrelevant to the point. I mean really, what did we expect? To not have to defend the validity of our point by eliminating each vacuous truth? Yes, vacuous truth. Until feminist discourse has addressed each and every vacuous truth exhaustively and without exception, the paperwork will continue to be rejected summarily by the Offices of Male Supremacy. (Upon receipt, applications for acknowledgement of human dignity or restoration of revoked human right should allow four to six thousand years for processing. Plus shipping and handling.)

    I’ll summarize the feminist critical point here: this is a product that amounts to sexual degradation practice, and it is presented as a beneficial exercise routine – the benefits of which summarily invalidate any / all harm, of course – and made available in convenient mail-order packages. But because SOMEBODY forgot to acknowledge that technically, exerting the body in a measured fashion could improve physical fitness. (I can’t quite figure out who, but that’s probably because it doesn’t matter. Feminists don’t require individual acknowledgement, as you gracefully demonstrated – but the feminist-as-noun objection is aside from the point, too.) Or something like that. Now, thanks to you, the discourse enjoys an injection of clarity and the benefits of discussion focusing on the minutiae of periods of sustained increased heart rate, aka aerobic workouts, and the forms these workouts take. The feminist agenda is well-served, the feminists are well-served – wow, I think we all just got served. Neat! Way to enbiggen the feminist discourse.

    (…Oh, wait, now I’m confused (must be all that feminist theory that usurped my personhood and replaced it with “A Feminist” where a unique individual used to be, but that’s off-topic) – does that mean waterboarding qualifies as an aerobic workout, too? Er – for the waterboarder or the waterboardee, or both… oh, snap!)

    (Dear holy god, please don’t interpret that as a serious question. The effort required to not succumb and act out the uncontrollable rage is already red-lined.)


  34. “Um, no. ”
    First of all, don’t ‘um’ me. Never patronise me.

    “Guy Fawkes took the name “Guido” when he was a gun-for-hire for the Spanish, who were brutally suppressing a Protestant uprising in the Low Countries.”

    I was not being specific by revolutionary. I did not mean any particular political alignment, because I didn’t know. I used the word in a generalised (clearly, now, I see, *incorrect*) way. I thought he was on the side of some militia or another, of which political persuasion I did not know. I have no political feelings one way or the other towards Guy Fawlkes (‘cept that I think blowing people up is bad, duh).

    You may be right in this case, but watch how you speak to me. I’m sure I’ve seen you before somewhere, and I’m suspicious of you. If I’m wrong, I apologise.


  35. Miss Andrist and ashleyspencer for the win.

    Also, ”Feminism isn’t about being just like men, especially when what men are doing is stupid” is as usual a brilliantly succinct statement, ND, but it’s really sad you have to keep. saying. it — over and over ad infinitum.


  36. I am, of course, quite mortified to find that I got something wrong. Now what will all those people who think I’m perfect do? Dearie me, I’m sure this invalidates everything I’ve ever said on anything!

    /joke with side dish of snark


  37. Last in series of crazy serial-postage (promise):

    Folks, the word ‘revolutionary’ to me is neither intrinsically positive or intrinsically negative. Is it widely understood in a different manner?

    *runs off to get a dictionary and a cuppa*


  38. Miss:

    Shrug. Whatever. Didn’t bother to read your whole response once you decided to use the privilege bomb. Its so over done and much like using a nuke when all one really needed was a good pair of glasses.


    re: MMA. Interesting. I’m curious if you ever have any plans to write about that. As a big time sports fan (ugh, I know) and a person who plays a lot of sports (ugh, I know) I’d be curious to hear a longer version of your take on this. May write about it myself, but I don’t know.


  39. I forgot to mention this earlier, but I also noticed that the women in the “before” shots have less clothing than in the “after” shots. Did they really think we wouldn’t notice that? One of the women is wearing an odd skirt that protrudes a great deal past her buttocks. Why is that? This is quite possibly the sloppiest job of “before and after” photos I’ve seen yet.


  40. Miss A, your post says it all, but having been nitpicked, I can’t resist nitpicking back.

    Ren: Yeah. I got your point before you reiterated. Hence my reference to “pornified acrobatics”. And there are plenty of styles of getting naked if your goal is to give someone a hard-on that don’t necessarily involve the tired and unoriginal pole humping or air humping or floor humping or hanging upside down, etc.

    My point is this: Fucking and sucking cock also burn calories, but when I am engaging in those things I am not thinking “Neat, I’m EXERCISING!!!”.

    If gyms start offering Fuck’n’suckercize, (which I fully expect them to any day now), that too will be about being a sexual servant, no matter what it may do for your heart rate.

    I have never heard of MMA, but it sounds like it blows the whole basis of martial arts discipline.

    Capoeira rocks as a martial practice, a community activity, a dance and is an absolutely wicked workout.


  41. @Laurelin,

    I’m sure we could like, get some extra net keys cut or something, because I think you both really win the net. And maybe some for Nine too. Haha.


    Waaaaay back up. Ooooh, that’s why I didn’t get it. I’m a dog lady see ;P


  42. ”I was thinking the other day that it would be really funny if the next trend in the suburbs of the UK was to act like an American redneck.”

    That’s been pretty popular in certain upper-eschelon suburban-exodite populaces — ie, hipsters — for some time. They say it’s ”irony”, and of course they never do anything that pushes the coolness envelope very hard.

    But hey, for all their faults, American rednecks — well, hillbillies — can be occasionally awesome. I grew up in hillbillyville and recall from my preteen years a real, utterly unironic wedding where the bride and groom rode down the aisle on horseback. The reception was in a fire hall, and the bridal party arrived there in the back of a pickup truck, accompanied by an impromptu volley of rifle- and pistol-blanks fired into the air.
    The festivities consisted mostly of drunken honky-tonk line dancing, drunken but not abusive rides on a donkey, and people playing unusual instruments in a jug band. A taxidermied groundhog was involved somewhere as a prop.
    The bride was in her mid-twenties, worked in a factory, and had already cohabitated with her betrothed in a trailer with their toddler daughter, and she was so happy on her wedding day that she shed sincere tears of gratitude. It was extremely touching.

    If more people wanted to do stuff like that, maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad cultural trend. I haven’t been to a party that fun … well, since then, actually.


  43. ”I’ve seen plenty o’ hipsters dressed like rednecks, but I think it’d be funnier if they were English for some reason.”

    I figured you had, and likewise hope that this means a reverse British invasion will be next. Because you’re right, that would be great. Okay, recess is over, I’m going back to Feminism.


  44. EFF YEAH, do it. As long as someone plays the rubber band.
    If it is a radical feminist jug band, this band could be known as The Jugs, and when pornified dudes show up to your impromptu shows — honky-tonk weddin’s and the like — someone can play the stun gun.
    Maybe everyone.


  45. also, and no need to publish this comment — I @’ed you on twitter with a small snippet of other jugband-related news, to move this otherwise entertaining and enriching dialogue off your anarcho-feminist blog.

    YES anarcho-feminism. If only it were this productive in real life.


  46. “If gyms start offering Fuck’n’suckercize, (which I fully expect them to any day now), that too will be about being a sexual servant, no matter what it may do for your heart rate.” – OMG, that made me think of those “vibrating” weights they sell on TV that look like they are conditioning womens arms for giving hand jobs.


  47. But hey, for all their faults, American rednecks — well, hillbillies — can be occasionally awesome.

    well bless your heart!


  48. ”’But hey, for all their faults, American rednecks — well, hillbillies — can be occasionally awesome.’

    well bless your heart!”

    Heh, I am one. Regardless of where I hang my hat these days, and all that country-fried sentimental shit.

    It was hard growing up riot grrl in the piney woods, but that is pretty much the reason I now strike terror into the heart of menfolk everywhere. Nothing like a radical feminist who grew up battling bigots AND knows how to wield an axe.
    Which, even a hand-held Weed-Wacker is a really great tool — it is very nasty, but looks like a golf club and can double as a way to trim your lawn (your actual lawn, or any grass for that matter) while simultaneously building your biceps.
    Not for weight loss purposes or any of that nonsense. For bare-knuckle-brawling with misogynists.

    See, Flirty Fitness? Two can play at this game. Git ready for Cornpone Cardio, which is fun, comes with accessories that are far more practical than a gawdamned stripper pole for your living room, and serves a purpose other than sexualizing oneself for a dood. Or all doods, to be more realistic, because this is really what stripping-as-cardio is all about.


  49. Ren,

    I’m sorry, I know you replied and it was addressed to me, but you are no longer relevant to this conversation and as such I haven’t bothered to read anything you wrote since I happened across the FIRST post in which you were wrong. I’m sorry, I really don’t have time to waste correcting all your subsequent errors, including whatever it was you posted most recently.

    Furthermore, as I now own the internet, and everyone who uses it is borrowing it from me, your internet-using privileges were permanently revoked and the Office of Human Dignity has issued you tickets backdated to my acquisition of the internet and starting from your first violation of this revocation. Make your check or money order payable to NOW.

    It’s cute that you believe your opinion matters to me, though. And it’s cute that you think everyone else here cared, too. ;)


  50. And for the record, just because refocusing seems to be my thing here:

    ”Feminism isn’t about being just like men, especially when what men are doing is stupid”

    Feminism isn’t about men at all. Feminism is about women. And all the other non-males out there. And as we know, the patriarchy’s zero-sum paradigm requires that anything that isn’t ABOUT MEN must ergo be AGAINST MEN, which is why males barge into the feminist dialogue as if this is about them. It’s not, except insofar as they are related to non-males. And that concept is so incredibly alien and new to every single one of them that it has to be explained IN EVERY GODDAMN POST.


  51. Miss:

    Hell, that’s the best laugh I’ve had all day. For real. I love a woman who talks all tough on the net and stuff. Makes me wonder about what she is like in real life.

    And congrats on your prize, the ‘Net and all…you have your work cut out though, seeing as so much of it is….porn. I mean, sure, you have cheerleaders and all, which is good, but wow, if the Net is truly yours, you have a daunting task ahead of you!

    I also have a soft spot (in my own strange and amused way) for people who have to be right all the time. You qualify. Without question. Heh, and people call me uncivilized! Best of luck to you, Queen of the ‘Net, but if you want to revoke my priviliges, I’m afraid you’re going to have to do it in person.


  52. If anyone wants me I’ll be in the basement with a bottle of single malt

    Want company (?), because I’m right there with you.

    Also, re: “the situation”–I will now demand to be referred to solely as “the consequence(s)” [of any/all of your bad behaviors/habits]


  53. (may not meet the “have a point” guideline)

    When I was 15 or so, I saw an ad in a TV guide–actually, a whole article, I think, with pictures and stories–that claimed “take this Chinese herbal medicine once and you’ll lose 10 pounds every week afterwards!” I guess they left it up to the readers to decide how long that meant they’d live. Ridiculous!


    1. The “have a point” guideline is only meant for people who like to give long-winded descriptions of their sex lives. Otherwise, anecdotes are usually welcome unless penned by MRAs.


  54. Ren, it seems you and Miss Andrist are nemeses, in the way people mean when they say, ”I have met my match.”

    Because, pardon me if I’m wrong, you really like to be right all the time too. Mind you, Miss Andrist really likes to be right all the time. It’s not a bad thing. But your personal contribution to the conversation has been, ”Like. Le gasp. Stripping IS cardio. Plus empowerfullating. And you can’t argue, because scientifically speaking, stripping IS cardio, and also if you don’t agree with me about empowerfullation you’re maybe an unliberated prude/degrading to sex workers/[insert further radfem stereotypes here]. HA.”

    Okay, you’ve been polite about it and ND seems to think you’re all right. But damn. What’s your point been, other than radfems don’t know how/are unwilling to sexually gratify men by performing bizarre and ultimately pointless gyrations on an otherwise-useless pole? Because, whoa. You are totally right with that, so maybe we can all stop with the weird uncomfortable one-upwomanship.


  55. kristyn: I’d like a direct quote where I said anything about anything being empowering on this here thread.

    Right, because I did not say any such thing in the above discussion. At all. Nor do I suggest anyone run out and try it for any reason. I’ve not suggested that anyone do anything to gratify anybody. At all.

    And no, I don’t need to be “right” because often, right is so very very subjective. What is right for and in the minds of some people is not right for and in the minds of others. The only thing I asserted as fact was that it was good cardio. That’s it. Nothing about how people should do it or being empowering or any other such thing. So yes, I do think I am right on that one tiny point- it is good cardio. If someone can prove otherwise, I’d be happy to change my stance.


    1. They are here, too. I think it might be really hard to dress like a redneck successfully. It involves a lot of very subtle accessorizing that the average young’un might be incapable of. I think the first step is to develop a taste for some kind of cheap American beer and/or bourbon. Then one might want to start dipping, watching college football, saying things like, “That don’t make a fuck,” calling people queers, and growing a goatee. This guy‘s a pretty good example.


  56. Stripping is not cardio, it is strength/resistance training. Dancing fast is cardio, pole dancing doesn’t consistently elevate the heart rate enough to qualify as aerobic exercise.

    Pedantry is best left to people who know what the fuck they’re talking about.


  57. ND: I would disagree. I’ve been a stripper for a long time, and yeah, many strippers actually dance- sweat, heart rate gets elevated, all that. On this one, I am speaking from my own experiences, and sure enough, cardio happens. May not be the same for all strippers, but for myself and others I know, it is.


  58. Erotic dancing is not cardio.
    Lap dancing is not cardio.
    Floorwork is not cardio.
    Removing clothes is not cardio.
    Taking dollars from men is not cardio.

    Stripping is not cardio.


  59. @ iasal
    First of all I can’t believe we are arguing about this, but if a given activity gets your heart rate up for the prescribed amount of time then it is cardio. That fact (and it is a fact) is independent of any social, moral, or political implications of said act. Conflating the physical responses (increased heart and respiration rate) with what ever social, moral or political impact said act may have is not useful, and beside the point. Don’t be distracted by it.


  60. iasal:

    And I will continue to say otherwise. Having done it, I know exactly what it does with regards to my pulse rate and other things. Same affects as riding a bike, running, or taking a step class. This I know, because I’ve done it and felt it. You and anyone else can say whatever you like, and I will know otherwise. It is, as they say, one of those life experiences kind of things that no one else- no matter how much the might want to or need to- can tell me otherwise about…because I’ve done it and I know.

    Would you say dancing- fully clothed or in a leotard- fast paced wise, for twenty minutes to an hour with very few breaks is cardio? If so, then not having clothes on does not change that.

    Once again, not saying anyone else should do it, would like it, or any other such thing. Merely saying that- why yes- I know from experience that it can be cardio. I am not sure why everyone so badly needs for that not to be the case- after all- I am not trying to make anyone else do it.


  61. Cardio is not a synonym for movement, it means your heart rate is raised and stays raised at your ‘target heart rate zone’ for a sustained period of time. 20 minutes is usually the minimum time to achieve cardiovascular exercise. Strippers don’t do 20-minute sets of sustained elevated heart rate. (I know I know, you do sets that long and longer because you’re more athletic than other strippers.)

    Pole dancing is strength/resistance.
    Erotic dancing is not aerobic dancing.
    Lap dancing is erotic rubbing.
    Floorwork is erotic tumbling.
    Removing clothes erotically is mere movement.
    Taking dollars from men is mere movement.

    That’s the job descrip.

    It is my life’s experience on ND’s blog that you’re an anti-feminist troll willing to twist common sense to suit your selfish fantasies, and no one can refute the fact of my experiences. Your unclever bullying may momentarily make my heart beat faster, but not to my target heart rate and not for long enough to call reading your narcissistic drivel cardio.


  62. Gee Ren, how very brave of you to take up the noble cause of fighting the cardio-deniers!

    Seriously, could you possibly miss the point more?

    Over the years I have assumed that you make hundreds of inane comments on feminist blogs in order to keep a hand out to us for when you need us – for when you are able to leave your abusive ‘work’. But lately I find myself wondering if maybe you aren’t just a bit thick.


  63. Ren:

    My sister’s the tough one. She’s a Marine, et al. Now THERE’S a “cardio” workout. I’m just a gutterpunk. If you’d like to find out what I’m like in real life, come n git me. I live in Texas, a state replete with make-my-day laws. If you don’t know what those are, I’d be more than happy to acquaint you.


    I care probably a little less than Twisty Faster (Jill!) about being right. And probably a little less than Valerie Solanas about explaining myself or why I’m right. I do it because Texas is also replete with the death penalty, so I gotta get SOME kinda outlet. Thanks for asking!



  64. Jwoww looks like she’s a million years old, and I love her. I would party with every single one of those chicks, but I’d rather eat glass than go near the dudes.

    I was watching the Snookie episode, having seen the punch-including promo clip and being aware that MTV had decided not to air it come showtime. And when they flashed that little promo screen, I mentioned something to my friend. The conversation went as such:

    Me: Oh, they flashed a little “remember not to beat women!” sign at the end of the episode.

    Him: That was nice.

    Me: Yeah, I guess so

    Him: Did they follow that up with some music videos featuring teenagers gyrating in their underwear?

    Me: Touche.

    I saw those ads for Flirty Girl Fitness on Rock of Love Bus too. That might be the only show more appropriate for the ad than Jersey Shore. My ex used to make me pause and rewind when they demonstrated the “lasso” move because it is freaking hilarious.

    I do have to say though, if someone forced me to choose between Flirty Girl Fitness and conventional methods of working out, I’d personally probably go with the “dancing.” Honestly, as stupid as that shit is, it’s got to be more enjoyable than running or sharing a gym with a bunch of d-bags.


  65. Miss: I’m in VA via CO…same kind of laws as TX, just phrased differently. But hey, you are the one making decrees, so the need to enforce them is not on me. A Marine, eh? Respect for that in all truth.

    Iasal: okay, so You are Attempting to tell me otherwise. Blah blah blah. You know what? I have No Idea what it is like for a person, any person, to sky dive…so if one wrote about their experiences, even if they did not match up to my expectations of sky diving…I might be likely to believe what they had to say about how it was for them!

    Val M: You know, some folk have a called me an anti feminist, some folk have called me a feminist…I say I am a grim realist/nihilist…and hell, I have no plans to leave my work and I sure as heck do not want any of your help to do so. You can assume I am as thick as you like, it matters very little to me….. and I never attempted to talk on the greater point, or look at any of this through a feminist lense….I was merely speaking on a matter of physical fitness. Don’t like it, oh well, no one is demanding you read my comments.


  66. I had an hour long discussion with a self-described feminist the other day about Snookie getting hit. I was of the opinion they should have showed it. I think it would have started a dialogue and forced a lot of men (probably the right type of men, too) to think about what violence towards women meant, and whether or not they could ever justify it to themselves. She believed that it shouldn’t have been shown because it would have encouraged men to hit women even more than they already do.

    I am not sure she is wrong and I am not sure I’m right, but I think it’s an interesting question. I think MTV missed a great opportunity to get this question out in the open by just cutting it and airing a disclaimer, but then again maybe the Chris Brown debacle already went there. Thoughts?


  67. I think the only reason people are annoyed with Ren is because the comment about it being cardio is somewhat irrelevent to the entire post. I see why people are annoyed. That point has basically nothing to do with how the entire idea is completely ridiculous.
    Hey everyone – cuz it’s cardio, we can’t discuss how ridiculous it is! And how MALE-centered and anti-feminist it is!!! Personally – women whippin’ out the Michael Jackson moves is waaaaay hotter and it shows some real talent (I use to work out with REAL poles in gymnastics).


  68. So stripping can be cardio. Why is that fact such a distraction? How does it prevent any one from discussing the feminist ramifications of stripping? Where was it stated that one could not put forth one’s opinion that stripping might be “MALE-centered”? Indeed, did not ashleyspenser, Rachel, and Lizor, for example, express that very sentiment earlier in this thread?


  69. First of all I can’t believe we are arguing about this, but if a given activity gets your heart rate up for the prescribed amount of time then it is cardio.

    If you are hanging wallpaper, having your arms above your head will elevate your heart rate, but that is not cardio.

    If you ride a bike, and you are pedaling fast in a low gear, and you think you could go on forever, that is aerobic exercise (i.e. cardio). If you crank your bike up to a high gear, and your thighs are burning, that indicates a buildup of lactic acid in the muslce, which is an indicator of ANaerobic activity. In other words, that is NOT cardio. But your heart rate will be high. Heart rate is not a reliable indicator of aerobic activity.

    Don’t thank me; thank Charlene Prickett from “It Figures” which I did religiously back in the late 80’s. She always talked about health and fitness in every episode.


  70. Oops, I’m sorry, Miss Andrist, for misrepresenting you. It wasn’t my intention.

    I actually think wanting to be right is a fine and dandy thing. Look at Twisty/Jill. She is ALWAYS right, and the Internet is a slightly better place for it (in my opinion, anyway, and I am also always right).
    Ren sounds as though she would disagree — and other people have addressed her quite adequately, so I won’t do so again — but hey, we all like to be right. I personally don’t like to say anything if I think I’m wrong. So in no way was I trying to say a bad thing about you, and next time I will ask instead of just stepping into the fray like a drunken prize fighter.

    Also, I’m a gutter punk too, even though I dress kinda low-class-steampunk/vintage noir these days.


  71. PS — sneeky,

    I may be doing that very thing I said I wouldn’t — stepping into the ring without asking — but I think the problem, as others have stated, was that Ren is known to the bloggers here as one who inserts deliberately obtuse comments into the discussion to purposefully delay dialogue. As evidenced by much commentary on this thread, it worked yet again.

    And you put ”male-centered” in scare quotes like you don’t agree. May I ask how making oneself deliberately vulnerable, ie naked, and then performing over-the-top theatrical uncomfortable faux-sexual gyrations in front of drooling men can be anything other than MALE-centered?
    I mean … I’ve done it. I’ve prostituted myself too, because (to vastly oversimplify) I had to eat and I never had the money to go to college. Never once did I feel like any of those experiences had anything to do with me, or with any real live women, much less real live women’s real live sexualities (as they would exist outside of a patriarchy). Never once, not whatsoever.


  72. @Kristyn: Wouldn’t ignoring Ren, if it’s felt that a given comment is meant to derail, solve the problem of derailment? And I was using quotation marks in the traditional sense of quoting some one, specifically Michelle, who originally used the phrase. Sorry for the confusion.


  73. Ignoring her wouldn’t help because then OMFGGS HATE SEX WORKERS@!~!!@@ don’t respond to them OMFGFDFV like they’re NOT HUMAN!!!those HATEFUL BITCH radfems!!!!

    Wouldn’t the right, respectful thing be for Ren to stop tossing her verbal turds at the feminists who read and comment on Nine Deuce’s blog?


  74. Murph: I reread Ren’s comment on this thread and, as a long time reader of this blog am also familiar with her comments on other threads as well. Please point out where in this discussion Ren used
    1) All caps
    2)Name calling
    3)Excessive punctuation.

    One of the things I love about this blog is the variety of voices, which I think gives rise to great, if sometimes heated, debates. I have learned a lot from the many different points of view expressed here, and have been challenged in my assumptions, and made to examine my positions even if I don’t participate in a given thread. Sometimes my mind is changed and sometimes it is not, but I value the process. I don’t feel that an echo chamber would have been as useful to me as I come to a deeper understanding of my own feminism, and I respect 92 for resisting the temptation to silence those who disagree with her, or as you so delicately put it, “toss verbal turds”. I think Ren does respect 92, which is why she continues to post here and why, I suspect, 92 continues to engage her. Personally, I respect and enjoy them both.


  75. Ok. I’m going to solve the problem. I’m going to buy the flirty girl fitness DVD and see if I a)drop two dress sizes in 10 days or b)put my back out.

    I’d like to know first though if the manufacturers are financially stable enough to sue, in the event of a)not happening and b) happening.


  76. And if we are taking ‘cardio’ as any exercise that benefits the heart, according to the British heart foundation to benefit your heart:

    Set yourself a goal to build up to at least 30 minutes of moderate physical activity on five or more days a week. Moderate physical activity that makes you breathe more heavily than normal and makes you warmer.

    So there you have it, you just need to breather more heavily and be warmer. In other words you need to elevate the heart rate. So Flirty girl fitness probably does fit the bill, so does walking fast. I still don’t believe it makes you drop two dress sizes though.


  77. @Murph:
    Reaction from whom? As we have yet to see this feared invasion, (at 111 posts and counting) I think we can relax and discuss the topic at hand.


  78. OMFG, there are horrible trolls pretending to be radfems on this blog, they’re hardly HUMAN, they are ignoring Nine Deuce!! (Joke flag.)

    I’ve taken to pointing to the tabloid magazines while in line at grocery stores, and audibly giving one-liners for the messages they’re sending: “you’re too fat” “your sex life is too boring” “cook low-fat foods” and so on. I can’t decide whether the ridiculous celebrity tabloids should read “no-one cares about you, only about movie stars” or “you should be a jerk just like the movie stars!”. (Opinions?) It’s amazing how good it feels to do that. Nine Deuce, I love when you give “practical tips for dealing with misogynist things,” especially the ones I could actually do.


  79. @Murph:
    I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you. Is it your contention that ignoring a troll would result in an increase in trolling activity? If indeed that is your position, you will forgive me if I am dubious. I think the reverse would be the case. Perhaps if another occasion arises we can test your hypothesis.


  80. I think the point is that ignoring some particularly prominent individuals on the ‘net when they make obtuse/ irrelevent comments leads to others claiming that the reason for ignoring them lies in others’ inability to cope with the supposedly great and sacred truths they uttered. It also shifts the discussion to the preoccupations of the obtuse person, and makes it all about them.

    But also: quite frankly, the ‘why don’t you ignore him/her’ line is something that teachers tell victims of bullying at school, so that *they* won’t have to do anything about the behaviour of bullies.
    It shifts the blame, and evades the issue. It’s a bullshit tactic, quite frankly, and it doesn’t fly here any more than it did in the playground.

    (Obtuse remarks are *not* necessarily the same thing as bullying, of course. Duh)


  81. Ah yes, I do recall being told to ignore my tormentors in school, and wondering exactly how that was going to work, but in that case there was physical escalation. My experience with cyber bullying is much more limited. I have, of course, heard with horror, and anger, the stories where it has been taken to extremes leading to people, particularly women being driven off the net, or even to suicide. And I understand (again from my own limited experience) that it is hard not to read the negative comments, or to be unmoved by them. 92 has a moderation system in place, which I assume she would use to prevent any of the really vile or abusive comments from getting through, for which, I personally am grateful. It can’t be pleasant having to read all that so the rest of us don’t have to. So, it seems to me, that 92’s “playground” if you will, is as she would have it, and that it is incumbent on the rest of us to play nice to the best of our varying abilities as adults. Which I hope doesn’t sound obtuse. :)


  82. Sneeky bunny: That sounds pretty good to me. :)

    I would add, though, that (I think) it’s also a place for women to vent our oppressed frustrations (well, preferably on topic, but here I go anyway). Faith pointed out to me that it’s one of the few places we can call out particularly misogynist or obtuse (not you!) commenters, though, so it is not a bad thing if that happens. Personally, I put down misogynistic and willfully ignorant behaviors in real life too, but then, my situation is a pretty secure one for now.

    Also, about tormentors: I knew 9-2 would be insane not to moderate comments, but more recently it sank in just what psychologically damaging comments may not be making it through. I was badly disturbed by some misanthropic comments by “Me” and “Black Thirteen” on an entry a year and a half ago, where one used an insult so bad (against children) that I’d never heard it before, and the other went on and on towards a single mother about how she was poor due to having made a bad financial decision (i.e., having a child). So indeed, trying to ignore tormentors’ psychological effects is the only way to be sane, but it is preferable to keep them out when they can’t be civil. Nine Deuce, once again, I admire you for doing all of this and actually having to see those comments.


    1. They’re not so bad compared to the death and rape threats. And the constant “you cunt, you’re the reason we like to watch videos of women being raped” comments.


  83. Hello Integri-T,

    I called my mom yesterday to tell her to check out your blog. You’re awesome.

    I will not be watching “Jersey Shore,” since we’ve suspended our TV subscription, and I really don’t want to waste my time, but I found your synopsis of it thoroughly entertaining. I have no idea what or who a “guido” is either.

    As for your rant on the Flirty Girl Fitness video, more power to you! Women can find other ways to work out than to adopt a degrading form of dancing, if one can call it that, that was invented to feed the visual lust of men. Besides, I guarantee you that that constant hip motion is not good for the lumbar area of the spine. It could really hurt a body.


  84. “They’re not so bad compared to the death and rape threats. And the constant “you cunt, you’re the reason we like to watch videos of women being raped” comments.”

    My personal favorite that I ever received was from the man who told me that he was going to force-feed me aborted fetuses and fuck my eye socket.

    Or something.

    But the abusive comments from men, and the never-ending blog wars from the “pro-porn” women, played a big part in my decision to give up blogging.


  85. It’s that sort of thing that gives me pause every time I consider expanding my presence on the web. You are made stern stuff 92, and I admire your spine.


  86. So nine. What was it you said a year or so ago, when you first dipped your blog in shit and several of us left…you had to learn for yourself? How’s the learning thing going?


  87. Thanks for your courage nine deuce. I’ve lurked here for a while and learned alot.
    Take care of your psyche.
    Sis are you always this nasty?


  88. No. I think you’d probably still get rape threats. See when you use words like rape and fuck, it excites them.

    But maybe if they were blocked we wouldn’t have to read this shit. And we and our daughters wouldn’t have to see these people supporting each other in public and fear it, because of the way airing it multiplies exponentially. They feed off it, and each other. It may be on your blog, but it’s towards all women. And it’s on the internets. They don’t care whether it’s your blog or their own. All they care about is they get to publicize their viewpoint. You dignify it by giving it space.


  89. Sis, Andrea Dworkin used the word fuck all through her book Intercourse. She used it to make people think about what it means. What ND has done with great courage is show that men do not think about what it really means and the women here who responded and tried to say what it means to women
    were dismissed and ignored and threatened. It still goes on. Attacking ND shows your absolute ignorance of what young women have to deal with today. I know you are my age and we had a very different social atmosphere. You should be supporting ND instead of your diatribes. Whose side are you on?


  90. Wait, Sis, are you /really/ trying to tell someone else how to run her own blog? …

    If you don’t mind, could you clarify your position for the rest of us? That is, re you referring to ND’s policy of allowing dissenting views but mostly keeping away the worst trolls? Or her use of curse words? Or just posting about feminist issues in the first place? What is it about this blog that you think is making misogyny worse? (I cited the worst example I’d seen because it made me realize that ND must be blocking /much/ worse comments, as she said.) I’m sorry for the tone of this comment; most of us are not world-class hackers who can figure out that you are even female, let alone a feminist, so as you’re commenting where we can all read it, it’d be nice to know why you are sniping.


  91. I’m talking about, or rather NOT talking about, B*SM. The practitioners of that insanity, and their prediliction to sexual excitement over their confusion of sex with rape and violence.

    I’m tight with Nine. I think she knows where I’m coming from.

    No sorry Rhondda (that who you are?). You’re not anywhere near my age.


  92. You know, I’ve been thinking. If womin and girls didn’t spend so much time learning how to strip, there could be some really badass villians/heros out their like Harley Quinn (without the abusive boyfriend) or Poison Ivy. Don’t these selfish porn pushers think about anything besides themselves? We could have femail comic characters come to life! Whoo!


  93. I’m getting tired of this whole ‘stripping is cool’ thing… and HOW the F can females think it is cool?? I’ts draining to think about…


  94. If pole-dancing is such an awesome cardio workout, dood, why am I not surrounded by blokes in leotards doing it at the gym?

    There are pole-dancing ‘classes’ offered at some of my local gyms, and some of them seem to operate a women-only policy…is it because women might feel uncomfortable pole-dancing in front of men?! That sort of logic sort of melts my brain.

    On the general topic of being interfered with when trying to use *my* body for anything other than bonerproduction…it’s a habit of mine to run up and down the roads in streamlined lycra past the gauntlet of male spectators/drinkers/construction workers to give them their jollies while I get some cardio in….I believe it’s called jogging.

    Catcalls abound, and once I was actually CHASED a short distance by a hilarious chap, egged on by his vair amusing buddies. Seriously, does that scare anyone else, because IT FREAKIN SCARED ME! Woman run, man chase?! I thought I should ignore the guy (and continue running), but I really wish I’d just stopped smack in front of him and given him a piece of my mind.


  95. Wow this makes me glad I have a little extra poundage on my person – keeps me from being an easy target of male malevolence. But to be honest, I’d love to give those flirty girls a nice shiner, if only to balance out the crass, girly pinkness of their silly vanilla world.


  96. Ive spent about half and hour reading some of your blogs and i have to say that its awesome. i love the way you write and what you have to say. i love that you are just voicing your opinion and dont really give a fuck if it isnt what people what to hear. keep posting because what you have to say is true.


  97. Ok, as a feminist, and one who considers herself a radical feminist, I have to say this. Let’s talk about pole dancing for a second. I understand strippers dance on poles in strip clubs, and strip clubs are so obviously NOT feminist its ridic, but “pole dance” actually derives from chinese pole acrobatics, which is thousands of years old. And honestly, as an aerialist and pole enthusiast, it actually is an amazing workout. I never go to an actual gym and lift weights and run on a treadmill, but I’m in better shape than I ever was in high school, I’m incredibly strong and my body feels amazing. I can do more pull ups than my boyfriend. Flirty Girl Fitness and strip clubs aside, pole dance is an incredible art and sport. Yes, some women ( a lot) are in it cause they think its sexy, but it can be beautiful, artistic, and incredibly expressive. There is even talk of putting pole “gymnastics” in the summer olympics (no heels or sexy moves allowed)!


    1. “pole dance is an incredible art and sport”
      Then why don’t men do it…I wonder? No matter how hard you attempt to deny it, pole dancing of any kind is obnoxiously thrust onto women by men. Oh, and pole dancing will *never* be in the summer Olympics because there is no male team or male equivalent sport.


      1. Its really disappointing when feminists, who usually debate using facts and statistics and research, don’t do their homework. Look on youtube, honey, hundreds of guys are pole dancing. Straight guys, as a matter of fact. I’ve posted a link below to one of my favorite dude polers, please take a look and tell me what you think. He’s incredibly talented! Vladimir:
        I’m also an aerialist and aerial fitness instructor, so I’ve been in the industry for a while, and out of my three pole dance trainers, two were male, and not that it matters, but one was a straight, white, middle class male. So like I said in my comment before, yes, pole dancing is tied to strip clubs and degrading women, at least here in America. But in China they still perform Chinese pole, and its mostly men doing it over there. So while strip clubs did turn it into something else, you can’t deny its origins, and you also can’t deny that there was talk of putting it in the Olympics since I’m guessing you’re not a professional athlete, aerialist, or acrobat of any kind, you really wouldn’t know even who to ask if those rumors were true. So, while I love debating well educated people, please come at me after you’ve done some research :)


        1. That anyone would compare perusing youtube to “facts and statistics and research” is more than a little embarrassing. I understand your desire to convince others that your hobby (pole dancing) is not a by-product of the current sex trade industry, but that’s untrue. One straight man joining the fun just doesn’t cut it. Most straight men would refuse on principle because they know the sole purpose is arousal under the guise of ‘exercise’. Unfortunately, sexual orientation does matter when you’re living in a world where everything associated with femininity is considered inherently icky.
          Just out of curiosity, how many of these male Chinese acrobats perform nearly nude (topless doesn’t count for men, of course) or with the expectation that what they do will be titillating? Therein lies the difference between an ancient practice and its current misogynistic context. Western pole dancing and its variations are comprised of mostly women and that’s no coincidence. Even the International Pole Sports Founder is a man (Timothy Trautman). Are we seeing a pattern here?
          “Chinese pole”, apparently, is relegated to the circus and households (YouTube 2014 <<< *gasp* research!). There is absolutely no comparison to be made between flirty girl fitness or pole dancing (i.e., Western 'sexercise') and actual acrobatics. There never was and there never will be unless you count genital grinding or an upside-down-nearly-nude-spread-eagle, and for the record I don't. Any pole dancing videos I came across featuring Chinese women were of the Western pornorific variety…so there's that.
          Anyway, internet rumors and social circle gossip doesn't exactly count as research. Moreover, the Olympic Charter indicates that to be accepted, a sport must be widely practiced by *men* in at least 75 countries and on four continents, and by women in no fewer than 40 countries and on three continents. I never deny that things are 'talked about'…obviously…but the same principles explain why American football will never be an Olympic sport either. So yeah…never gonna happen.


        2. Lulz. ONE dude on youtube = HUNDREDS of men pole dancing.
          Honestly, who gives a damn? I think most of us are so fucking burnt out on the sex-pozzi fun-fem movement, we just cringe at the mere mention of “pole dancing”. Besides, what has any of this to do with the ORIGINAL TOPIC? You smell like a troll.


  98. Well, fuck. I give up. If this product is filling an actual demand, we’re hosed.

    I know that you may not have meant this literally, but after all I’ve read and learned, I really do think our species is damaged beyond repair. We’re the only species that has the capacity to decide our own trajectory of evolution; and the vast majority has decided that it’s best to keep subjugating women to the detriment of absolutely everyone.

    I found your blog around the time of this post, and dammit I should have listened. Or, perhaps if I had been well read in feminist theory in the first place, I would have. Goes to show that complacency about your own personhood paves the road to hell.

    I won’t be making that mistake again.


  99. This must be double post day. Sorry about that, fixed it:

    Well, fuck. I give up. If this product is filling an actual demand, we’re hosed.

    I know that you may not have meant this literally, but after all I’ve read and learned, I really do think our species is damaged beyond repair. We’re the only species that has the capacity to decide our own trajectory of evolution; and the vast majority has decided that it’s best to keep subjugating women to the detriment of absolutely everyone.

    I found your blog around the time of this post, and dammit I should have listened. Or, perhaps if I had been well read in feminist theory in the first place, I would have. Goes to show that complacency about your own personhood paves the road to hell.

    I won’t be making that mistake again.


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