I was hanging out here at Chez Deuce with Pisaquari the other night when we decided to do a little Google experimentin’. You see, despite having issued challenges in the past to my many porn-apologist readers requesting that they produce an example of “feminist” (or at least non-misogynistic) porn, I have yet to see one of these unicorns myself. I don’t particularly care whether I ever do see one, being as I don’t need other people to tell me what to think about in order to jack off, but I would like to see some evidence if people are going to keep making the claim that not all porn is necessarily laden with woman hatred. I also don’t really understand why people — especially feminists — spend so much time and energy discussing three feminist outliers that may or may not exist while ignoring the three billion or so misogynistic porn images that definitely do exist.
So we googled “feminist porn” to see what we’d find. What we got was 322,000 results, most of which were discussions by feminists of whether such a thing as feminist porn can or does exist, along with a very, very small number of sites claiming to offer “woman friendly” porn. On the first page of results, there were only two that contained any porn or links thereto, and there wasn’t another one until the fifth page of results. From there on out, I didn’t see any at all and eventually got tired of seeing the same summary results over and over: rehashings of the ol’ “is feminist porn an oxymoron” debate and interviews with women who claim to be both feminists and porn stars. Interesting.
We weren’t exactly shocked at the results, though I think we were both a bit surprised that there were only three sites within five pages professing to offer feminist porn. I mean, I know that most self-proclaimed feminist porn fails comically to live up to its name, but I still figured there’d be more than three sites in five pages claiming to make the grade. We decided to compare those results with other search terms for niche varieties of porn we assumed would garner a similar number of hits.
TRIGGER WARNING
We googled “rape porn.” We got 1,860,000 results, and the entire first page, a link to the Wikipedia article on tentacle rape porn notwithstanding, was made up of links to sites offering rape porn. On the first five pages, every single result save three was a rape porn site. Some quotes: “Crying young teen bitches in violent rape porn movies!,” “Weeping chicks getting their holes probed by countless men in a row or even at once – all without their approval, all at inimitable Gang Rape Videos!,” “Rape these bitches so hard they bleed from torn ass holes and abused pussies.”
We googled “brutal porn.” We got 2,810,000 results, and every single result in the first five pages except for one news story about a brutal child porn ring was a site offering things like “Brutal sex, throatfuck mixed up with brutal face fucking” and “some of the scariest porn on the net.”
We googled “dog porn.” We got 47,600,000 results, and aside from a few articles about a porn actor who killed a dog and some dumbass asking what would happen if his dog watched porn on Yahoo! Answers, the entirety of the first five pages were made up of sites offering things like “Dog fucks wet pussy. Huge horsecock in teen pussy” and “dog fucking girls, woman drink animal cum, beast cumshot.”
Sigh. For god’s sake. Can we face the fucking facts, PLEASE? There are nearly six times more hits for “rape porn” than there are for “feminist porn,” nearly nine times more results for “brutal porn,” and nearly one hundred forty-eight times as many results for “dog porn.” In all three instances, the top results were all for sites offering images of women being brutalized, raped, or fucked by animals, with nary a news article, blog post, or interview with anyone who might take issue with the existence of propaganda that teaches men and boys that women and girls are subhuman and available for raping. I know how search engine optimization works, but I also know that the number of times people click on a certain site in relation to a given search term plays a role in that site’s position in the results for future searches for that term.
Do you know what that means? No one clicks on sites that claim to offer feminist porn. Lots of people click on sites that offer rape porn. Were feminist porn to actually exist, it wouldn’t matter, because no one is looking for feminist porn and no one cares to see what it might look like because people don’t watch porn to see two equals going at it. While we waste our time arguing about whether feminist porn exists, whether a feminist can be into mainstream porn without getting kicked out of the club, whether women can participate in the production of mainstream porn and still claim to be feminists, etc., men are producing and consuming enough brutal porn to drown us all in a purulent swamp of misogyny. It ain’t men these sites are claiming we’ll get to see fucked by donkeys, anally gang raped, brutally throat fucked, and covered in jizz. It’s women, and it’s women who have to live in a world saturated with images of women being degraded, debased, dehumanized, and despised. Who gives a shit, in this context, if a couple of tattooed, 115 IQ havin’, zombie lovin’ drama club geeks think they’ve found a way to make a video of two people fucking that doesn’t involve the woman being called a whore?
We had to try to find something even more recherche than feminist porn. We tried “pizza porn” (3,190,000 results) and got a combo of photos foodies had taken of pizzas with ridiculous shit on them and sites about introducing “sluts” to “big sausages.” We tried “rodeo porn” (748,000 results) and were treated to sites featuring topless women riding bulls and being porked by rednecks. So, of course, we tried “redneck porn” (725,000 results) and found out there are thousands of sites that amalgamate cousin incest and deer hunting into one rompin’ good time. We checked out “homeless porn” (1,050,000 results), “cop porn” (2,730,000 results), “emo porn” (2,920,000 results), “fart porn” (1,680,000 results), “shit porn” (6,490,000 results), “fraternity porn” (387,000 results), and “puke porn” (1,620,000 results). It seemed we’d never find a porn genre that had generated less interest than feminist porn when at last we stumbled upon it. Janitor porn! Only 239,000 hits! But to be fair to janitors and lovers of janitor porn, there were quite a few actual porn sites with clips like “Janitor Pretends he Rich give SLUTS fake Vodka for Group Sex” within the first five pages of results, so even though “janitor porn” might generate fewer results than “feminist porn,” there might actually be more janitor porn than there is feminist porn (really, I’m sure there is, since I’ve now seen janitor porn and have yet to see feminist porn).
Let’s get some perspective here, huh? When someone spends 99% of their time defending .0000001% of an industry while avoiding confronting the 99.9999999% of the industry that has real effects on women’s lives, that person looks a bit delusional/defensive/dishonest. Let it go, dude. Admit that you know porn is bad for women and you use it, participate in it, or profit from it anyway. You aren’t fooling anyone here, and I doubt that you’re even fooling yourself.
This is so to the point, it blows me away. When you started listing those statistics ND, it was very visceral to me. The higher the numbers went, the more I could feel male hatred of women escalating.
We need more bloggers like you, but that may prove difficult, as you are clearly 1 in 7 billion… And that’s a statistic you should be well proud of.
Also wish to echo the THANK YOU.
Quick experiment:
1. Google “porn”
2. Click #1 result, porn hub dot com
3. See titles such as “Big tit Laura slammed in the ass” “Sunny Lane Gets Cunt Stretched” etc etc and see
4. Add for website “Brazzers”, advertisement features a womon in a “sex scene” that reminds me of one of my own rapes, in the add you see her slapped in the face, dragged by her hair and choked before being held down and penetrated.
5. Google “Brazzers” get following results:
‘Teens Like It Big
Big Tits at Work
Pornstars Punishment
Milfs Like it Big’
6. Realise you’re only proving Nine’s point and continue
7. Google “Brazzers + rating” and see that on average, this website scores 7+ by men.
8. Conclusion, porn = misogynist, end of story.
“men are producing and consuming enough brutal porn to drown us all in a purulent swamp of misogyny. It ain’t men these sites are claiming we’ll get to see fucked by donkeys, anally gang raped, brutally throat fucked, and covered in jizz. It’s women, and it’s women who have to live in a world saturated with images of women being degraded, debased, dehumanized, and despised. Who gives a shit, in this context, if a couple of tattooed, 115 IQ havin’, zombie lovin’ drama club geeks think they’ve found a way to make a video of two people fucking that doesn’t involve the woman being called a whore?”
Fucking word.
“Let’s get some perspective here, huh? When someone spends 99% of their time defending .0000001% of an industry while avoiding confronting the 99.9999999% of the industry that has real effects on women’s lives, that person looks a bit delusional/defensive/dishonest. Let it go, dude. Admit that you know porn is bad for women and you use it, participate in it, or profit from it anyway. You aren’t fooling anyone here, and I doubt that you’re even fooling yourself.”
SO TRUE.
holy shit.
I actually had a draft of almost exactly the same experiment waiting to be published. I find it ridiculous when people try to claim they watch feminist porn or non-violent porn. I had someone who claimed this actually link me to what they watched. This supposed non-violent porn consisted of a woman gagging on a penis (it wasn’t violent because she wasn’t crying) then taking it roughly up the butt (again not violent because she was pretending to smile) and then getting a cumshot to the face. Non-violent my ass. These defenders of non-violent feminist porn just have their head in the sand. It’s very hard to face a reality that you get turned on brutalizing and raping women. It’s much easier to just pretend it’s only everyone else and you’re so different. It’s especially easy to do if a) most others are doing it too and b) you’re reinforcing this with an orgasm.
In a study by Kaiser on the third-person effect, they found that although almost 3/4 of people thought sexual media affected others either a lot (~50%) or somewhat (~20%), over half of respondents felt that they weren’t affected at all by sexual media and the majority of the rest said very little. Less than 10% said a lot. So people can be really thick and stupid when it comes to things they are personally invested in.
Somehow feminists have come to believe making material that the rapists, misogynists and sexists *don’t want to watch* will undermine their rape-y desires.
What a great post elkballet. It’s a perfection description of the hypocritical world of the porn apologist. And I do feel that men have never, at any point in history, been honest about the fact that violence against women turns them on.
Great post, ND.
“These defenders of non-violent feminist porn just have their head in the sand.”
I’d disagree. I’d say they’d be more likely to be lying through their teeth, though I’m at a loss to explain why they bother when society is on their side.
The closest thing I would come to “feminist porn” would be I series of short videos I saw at a friend’s house. They were videos (professionally done, I think, but not “high-res”) of women making each other orgasm in different ways. There were no men, and it didn’t really look like it was made for men or by men. There wasn’t any violence that I recall (although I didn’t watch them all)–no rough fucking, no gagging on anything, and definitely no rape.
But even thought it was non-violent, I wouldn’t really call it “feminist” porn. I mean, does “not violent against women”=feminist? That sounds kind of like praising someone for NOT raping someone. I mean, do we have to lower our standards so much that everything that’s not anti-feminist is feminist?
I’m afraid, honestly. Because when someone says they’re “into porn,” I know that chances are, it’s violent porn (even like, as elkballet said, they don’t THINK it’s violent porn). I hate to even talk about porn to the men in my life.
It makes me sick that stuff like Max Hardcore is so popular. I despise that man more than any other non-murderer on earth, but I can’t even say “I wish he’d die,” because even if he did, someone else would take his place. Hell, even now, they’re trying to make porn more and more “edgy” and it terrifies me when I wonder how much further they’re going to go.
Let me be the first to say…THANK YOU.
‘Perfect,’ even! :D Sorry, had a long day!
Let me say THAnk you Girls for your work. Please I have been trying to email the writers of this website. I wish to say “all my life I felt like they do” and I want to say more not on this comment. please email me
at
sarah_falcone@yahoo.com
God bless you, I write too, and am writing a memoir..
@9/2:
Thank you for being able to do what I probably won’t ever. Another link in my arsenal of What (Exactly) Is Wrong With This Shit.
– et al –
So, YouPorn. It’s supposedly like YouTube except, porny. Of the most popular websites on teh interwebs, it’s #74.
An ex-Nigel told me about it – or rather, explained it while I was trying to cope with the reality of being a web developer. I have never gone there (let’s call avoidance of triggers with the potential to induce suicidal ideation a phobic aversion) so I have no idea. I can’t believe it is what he insisted it is: “what if people just enjoy showing off?”
We came up with a theoretical situation where the sexually explicit is just that – and not objectionable – on another thread. His premise (like so many of them who “don’t like ‘that’ kind of porn” or “only like amateur”) was that amateurs can be presumed to be there willingly.
Unfortunately for the state of the world and my peace of mind, I can’t accept these easy arguments, because I know that this (TRIGGER WARNING):
http://womensrights.change.org/blog/view/whos_getting_off_on_the_sexual_coercion_in_kendra_wilkinsons_sex_tape
even exists.
Has anybody else addressed the amateur-is-okay bullshit?
-Miss Andrist
Lover of Men
People love to tell me amateur is OK. They figure it absolves them of guilt if the people aren’t being paid and are just doing it because they want to. The problem is, how can anyone be sure that the women being taped a) know they’re being taped and b) agreed to have the video made public. And leaving that simple argument aside, there’s always the analysis of why a woman would allow herself to be taped and the difference in intent between the man and the woman in making amateur porn. People will grasp at anything before they’ll admit porn is a problem.
I recently came across some delusional/hopeful talking about the feminist porn awards. I watched their video of the awards and one performers got an award for the best “gonzo porn scene”. Feminist fail, in my opinion.
Pisaquari rocks!
‘Let’s get some perspective here, huh? When someone spends 99% of their time defending .0000001% of an industry while avoiding confronting the 99.9999999% of the industry that has real effects on women’s lives, that person looks a bit delusional/defensive/dishonest. Let it go, dude. Admit that you know porn is bad for women and you use it, participate in it, or profit from it anyway. You aren’t fooling anyone here, and I doubt that you’re even fooling yourself.’
This paragraph is fucking perfect.
I applaud your strength for carrying out this “experiment”. It is truly frightening.
I have lost all patience with the whole “feminist porn” argument long time ago.
Funnily enough, yesterday I came across this comment by someone on the David Icke forum (don’t ask), and though it doesn’t say anything particularly new, it’s interesting to think about this perspective,
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1059527502&postcount=99
It’s interesting, not to mention refreshing, to question the existence of porn on spiritual grounds.
Pisaquari rocks too! Thanks to you both. And where is she? I haven’t seen any new posts in her blog in ages!
I am giving out the link to this post to all the men I know who read English. Then, I am translating the text into Danish to give to the rest.
After that, if any of them so much as breathe a word other than
“I see now, and I am sickened that I have been blind to these horrifying facts. I apologise and will never watch porn again,”
I am shutting them out of my life.
Thank you, everyone, for the lovely compliments. Please also thank Pisaquari as she had to suffer through just as much as I did to make this post happen, and she came up with the idea to google janitor porn (because she’s hilarious).
IMHO, the fact that porn users can and do regularly increase their intake and the extremity of the pornography they watch contradicts their little bullshits like this.
The power play and violence in this one is that the camera’s taking the place of a phallic object, and the presumed audience (I am more than willing to bet) is still men, even if it’s not, that’s who the main audience is going to be.
Totally agree, not to mention, one must wonder how many womyn and girls were raped, filmed and had a video posted online under the guise of amateur porn?
This too.
That’s quite the telling experiment. And I totally agree about “amateur” porn being way problematic too. I’ve seen far too many of those kinds of videos posted as “revenge” against a girlfriend/wife/whoever to think that it’s all fine. There’s a lot of crap under that rock too. Ugg… just the thought of men wanting to watch porn because they know the woman didn’t agree to have the video be distributed. The world: it’s awful.
Porn is a brainwashing system you can use at home. I am truly afraid of what comes next. I found some of my step-dad’s porn (from the 70′s); it involved copious amounts of rape and incest. This was considered “soft core”. This has got to be stopped. Men need to know that there are consequences to abusing womin. We can’t just reason with them any more.
The power play and violence in this one is that the camera’s taking the place of a phallic object, and the presumed audience (I am more than willing to bet) is still men, even if it’s not, that’s who the main audience is going to be.
Are you suggesting that women wouldn’t be aroused by a visual depiction of sex, or that no woman would allow herself to be videotaped? I don’t mean to sound snarky or anything–I’m curious about the statement that the camera is taking the place of a phallic object. The tone of the video didn’t really “feel” like it was made for men. My friends told me it was made “by women, for women.”
Another question is (to anyone), is there some kind of distinguishing between “porn” and “visual depictions of people having sex that is meant to sexually arouse, but is not violent or degrading”? I mean, when I think of mainstream porn, I think of fake and unrealistic depictions of women, lack of respect for those women, “dirty” talk that sounds over-the-top even to those who like “dirty” talk (words like “dong” and “twat” come to mind), and often as much infantilization as is possible without straying into actual child pornography.
But is there any sort of visual erotica that’s not violent or degrading? Or does there always have to be some power game going on?
And I’m not talking about “woman as dominatrix” porn, either. I’ve never thought that was feminist, although I’ve heard of people misusing the word “feminist” to describe it.
Effing brilliant. The statistics really, really helped to create a mental image of the magnitude of this shit. I don’t think many people realize that A LOT of men watch the kinds of porn listed in the post. And it is scary to think that most of the men who search for things like “dog porn” probably have girlfriends, wives, children, etc. It is normal in our society to watch porn, because it is assumed that men need it. In reality, they don’t need it, they want it, because it sells them the all too real image of them being in total control. Even all woman, “non-violent”, “feminist” porn is made for men. The biggest con they ever pulled on us is making us think that we need it and want it, too.
Thank you for this post, ND. Some people continue to completely disregard the very obvious demand/supply mechanism here.
Well done 9/2. I would also add that the underlying assumption for those who think het porn could ever be “feminist” is that there’s nothing wrong with PIV itself. Which of course there is. Even anti porn activists, particularly perhaps MALE anti porn activists, seem to miss this point entirely, the result being to frame the problem as a “consent” problem (or an economic coersion problem or a trafficking problem) which of course it is. BUT. Its also a problem of men thinking its perfectly ok, even allegedly feminist men think this, to place women in harms way by sticking their dicks into them under a variety of circumstances. Even anti porn and anti prostitution work, as we currently know it, normalizes PIV, and piv-centric sexuality. Which obviously benefits men.
Anyway, my point is that het sexuality in its entirety, because its piv-centric and therefore uniquely and particularly harmful to women, is based on woman-hatred. Putting it on film doesn’t solve any of this. Noone is saying it does, not even the fucking piv-pozzies who think there’s any such thing as feminist het porn. But that’s only because they have swallowed woman-hating het sexuality in its entirety, and can’t see the forest for the trees.
factcheckme- your PIV obsession weirds me out, and I have tried repeatedly to read your blog and understand what your deal is but I can’t. It doesn’t make any friggin sense. You don’t have to have ANY position on PIV to be anti-porn.
Everytime I hear that there’s “woman” porn and “feminist” porn I start to laugh. The only female porn is in those dumb romance novels, and even that’s training women to be dickminded. I laugh at those novels. Anyway, about the pornyponies..
You’d think they would be foaming at the mouth at the people who actually like having the foulest,most degrading shit in their porn, but nope. As usual,it’s the woman’s fault for pointing out the ugliness of porn . I mean women need to just get that, they like freaky deeky sick shit, and “STOP SEEING ALL THE NEGATIVES AND LOOK AT THE POSITIVES”!
I like that word, “dickminded.”
Also great post, I forgot to mention. Many of your posts are great,to be honest. Been lurking around some feminist blogs for a tidbit.
And it sickens me so how people are abusing animals and women in porn. I don’t even want to ever encounter someone who actually likes that. It kind of creeps me out-one of those sickos could be in your house-you could be dating them.
Anyway “Feminist” porn is a Lochness Monster -I keep hearing about it,but no one’s ever shown me it. It all just like a giant pile of male-centered sickfuckery.
Porn will never be female-centric,or be pro-female because its foundation was BUILT ON MISOGYNY, funfems. You can have a small little apartment, but the men have the entire building. The.Entire.Building. And you’re defending your wee little apartment, the apartment they ALLOWED you to have. Don’t get too “open-minded”,though,they’ll kick you out and just stop pretending altogether they are feminist men.
Every porn post you make is so on point. It baffles me how anyone can read this and not understand.
@factcheckme – Saying that heterosexuality in its entirety is misogynist is a bold statement. I’m not challenging it, but I am confused as to how you came to this conclusion. It would be difficult to normalize PIV sexuality as it is already the most normal, natural sex act there is. It is our sexual reproduction. You could say that many, or even the vast majority of men see PIV as a way to degrade a woman, but how can PIV itself be inherently degrading when it is actually instinctual for a women to desire it and required for the survival of any animal species? Does this not also deny that the vagina is a sex organ designed to give women pleasure? Do you have a specific blog post that would answer these questions? This is probably something you get asked a lot.
I completely respect the desire for less emphasizing on sex = penetration, because it is male-centric, but the vagina is a sex organ, unlike the mouth, anus, etc. No one can claim that the desire for vaginal sex is cultural.
You forgot one. Or maybe you didn’t. I had to squint and scroll really fast so as not to get sick(er).
Elderly/senior porn. Women in their 80s, seemingly drugged, being raped while in beds. Nursing homes, chronic care, retirement homes, I assume. Pictures of anal, vaginal and oral pentration, cum-shots to the face, and in all, the women (of course it’s women) have their eyes closed and their bodies are slack, and being held in position. In some cases they are painful looking positions no woman of that age could achieve, with the preponderance of joint and arthritis damage many of them might have.
I saw this first about six years ago, and similar, a few months ago when googling “women’s sexuality” “aging women and sexuality” and “mature women and sexuality”. I was looking for information on STD prevalence and condom use in older women.
We did look up “granny porn” (6,330,000 results) but didn’t think to do “senior.” Jesus fucking Christ, dude.
I second Skeptifem. I too have gone over to your blog and have had similar difficulty. If PIV is not for you, then I say good for you, but I am uncomfortable with it becoming a feminist litmus test; to wit: if one has heterosexual PIV sex, then one is not a feminist. That is too narrow a definition and I’m kind of afraid that’s where you’re heading.
All forms of “visual erotica” are morally questionable. Period. I always found it particularly fascinating how people, well, men, feel “entitled” to have “visual stimulation” for their sexual desire. Why should other people have to copulate in front of a camera for other people to watch? Seen from this angle, it’s pretty obvious that unless there’s a class hierarchy or a power hierarchy, there is no incentive for people to effectively sell a part of their sexual lives for money. That is what makes it immoral. If everyone was equal, nobody would actually take part in erotica for anyone else’s benefit.
The commodification of human sexuality, which is what takes place for “erotica” to be produced and sold, is morally wrong. Sexuality is a part of people’s lives, and it can never be either bought or sold.
Sorry, didn’t mean to be redundant. PIV, of course, implies hetero sex.
Mary Tracey – Thanks a lot for explaining.
Oh I have a question! ND I am assuming in your research you came across the site Crashpad, and I am curious what your thoughts might be about it since it’s a by dyke for dyke operation. I think I have preeeeetty good idea where you come down on main stream hetero porn made by and for those in possession of The Penis(tm) by this time :) and I want to be clear that I am not asking this question as a segue to a defense of horse fucking or any of the other truly appalling examples of main stream porn you have brought to our attention.
Personally I would be interested in a feminist critique of sites like Crashpad and to discuss where it might fall with in the porn continuum.
I don’t usually discuss anything but mainstream het porn (and the more egregious excesses of het porn niche genres). I’m familiar with the problem of gender roles and hierarchy being recreated in lesbian and gay porn, but I don’t tend to discuss it a lot as I’m trying to stick to the 99% rather than the outliers. I suppose I may need to check it out and come up with a real stance, but I kind of feel like that might better be done by a lesbian feminist.
Fair enough, thanks! :)
re: amateur porn
A poster on my blog said their rape was taped and put on amateur sites.
I think I may be different than a lot of radical feminists because before I came to be one I watched a shitload of porn. I had a boyfriend who worked in a porn store, and I would hang out there with him, and we would rent a lot of it and watch it for non-sexual purposes. We would rent the weird stuff to laugh at it and whatnot. I saw a lot of shit that I wish I could unsee. A lot of amateur porn is about emulating mainstream pornography, its like an endless depressing loop of how many people do not understand how to fuck outside of the pornography model of it. I don’t know why people tell me that is better somehow, it looks exactly the same as far as content goes. There are some amateur porn videos out there that are very obviously of women trafficked for sex tourism (sometimes the women don’t speak any english), where the johns paid to tape it. Amateur porn is also exempt from the small amount of laws that apply to pornography- the possibility of someone being underaged goes wayyyyy up considering that. Even in porn that is just photos of naked people there are models who show up for “test shoots” of photos and then don’t get officially hired or paid, and the shots get distributed out on the internet anyway. Its just completely fucked, all of it.
A lot of dudes are willing to admit the inherent humiliation present in capitalism ( tons of em seem to like Office Space), but couldn’t possibly see how sex work could make the problems more egregious. Its “just a job” because they aren’t doing it, I guess.
“(…) but the vagina is a sex organ, unlike the mouth, anus, etc. No one can claim that the desire for vaginal sex is cultural.”
One could argue that it’s not the vagina which is the female sex organ, but the clitoris, with most of it arcing around the whole of the vulvar area.
but how can PIV itself be inherently degrading when it is actually instinctual for a women to desire it and required for the survival of any animal species?
Uhhh, because heterosexuality is COMPULSORY. We no longer have instincts, save survival. And even so, I do not have to restrain myself from killing-to-eat my little doggie when I’m really, really hungry and have nothing in the house to eat. Heterosexuality is coerced and forced upon all of us under the threat of social ostracization, and in some places, even DEATH. And hetero-normativity is, clearly, about male supremacy. FCM has PIV on LOCK DOWN and if y’all don’t get it already– how dangerous it is EVERY.FUCKING.TIME.– it’s because you don’t WANT to get it. The moment that humans figured out that PIV = baby, it should’ve STOPPED except for the specific purpose of procreation. As we can see, this has YET to happen, despite overpopulation that threatens our species’ very survival!
Give me a fucking break! The CLITORIS exists SOLELY for female pleasure. It is the ONLY body part, male or female, that does. It also has 2x as many nerve endings in that tiny little space as the entire penis does. Sure, penetration is pleasurable *for some women.* But ffs. Get a grip on your anatomy. The vaginal canal is not the end all, be all. And the costs/risks outweigh the benefits 10 to 1. Face it.
CrashPad is a fucking Kink Fest that glorifies power-plays and sexualized violence. Enough said.
omg. you may as well say that wanting/needing to please men isnt cultural, since historically, male-pleasing has been more causative of womens participation in PIV than anything even approaching womens “desire” for it.
but anyway. what if i am actually right about PIV, and het sexuality (PIV = sex = PIV) being woman-hating because it is harmful to women, but not to men? i think this conclusion is pretty self-evident actually, if its harmful ONLY to women, whats the purpose and effect of engaging in it?
but even if its not evident to you, ASSUME that its true for a second. doesnt everything kind of fall into place after that? i mean really. it explains alot. all PIV-centric sexuality existing on a continuum of woman-hatred explains why even the united states supreme court cant tell the difference between “mere” porn and illegal “obscenity”. it explains why allegedly “feminist” porn is so elusive. it explains why porn and in fact just run-of-the-mill “fucking” is getting more and more degrading to women, and more violent, but it still considered “just sex.” its why rape and heterosexual fucking are nearly indistinguishable, in so many instances. its why marriage resembles prostitution, and why framing all of these issues as issues of “consent” and “agency” seem like chasing your tail, and smack of doublethink.
since someone asked for a link, i will provide one. i hope this isnt derailing 9/2. i personally dont think it is, and that the idea of the woman-hating continuum explains exactly WHY what you say is so elusive, IS so elusive. but the idea that SO MANY MEN are watching even the extreme stuff says a lot too, and i am mindful that the “extreme stuff” and how common it really is, was really the point of this post.
http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/the-intercourse-series/
@ Undercover Punk: That’s not *quite* what I had in mind when I said I’d be interested in a discussion on the subject. :) Could you perhaps elaborate?
“All forms of “visual erotica” are morally questionable. Period. I always found it particularly fascinating how people, well, men, feel “entitled” to have “visual stimulation” for their sexual desire. ”
Yeah, I think so too. As a het female, I like to look at a good looking guy, but it very rarely enters my mind (unless I am with some of my gay male friends). It certainly is not a need, let alone a “right”. There is always a reductive element to act of sexual looking and it is always the object that is reduced.
Now supposing that gender inequality was reversed and I was taught and encouraged to and rewarded for viewing all men as less than myself, I would think that somewhere deep inside, I’d be a bit nervous about losing my unearned privilege and I may manifest that anxiety in a number of ways that may include insisting that I have “stimulating” men to ogle. It may distract me from my moral quandary, by boosting and reinforcing my sense of power over half the planet, and reward me for that distraction.
I steeled myself and had a little look at “feminist” porn on the web and what I could find looked just like bog-standard male produced porn – particularly in that the camera is always trained on the woman who is being penetrated. So what’s the deal? Why is none of this feminist porn concerned with looking at men having sex or acting sexual? Is it because a prerequisite to wanting to make porn is assimilating the cultural construct of the male gaze?* If I decide to wank to other women (who, BTW have the factory-produced mono-look of all women mainstream porn) this is supposed to advance gender equity??
I also think Mary Tracy’s proposition that porn be considered from a spiritual point of view pretty compelling. I have always felt that porn and pornified sex play are a desecration of the [female] body and of what for me can be a joyful sacred celebration of the soul (if you take soul to mean embodied spirit). Porn is in it’s essence anti-sex and it hates the female body it pretends to value, even to the extent that the vagina is always, always secondary to the anus and the throat. “Feminist” pornographer Tristan Taormino has made a living instructing women on how to take it up the bum and down the throat. So according to her brand of “feminist” porn, the vagina as entry is a poor third-runner to those other orifices. Woman-centred pleasure, my arse. (pun not intended)
*The old chestnut about men being more “visual” is a huge crock. They are only more visual when it comes to ogling and using women. In everything else, the cultural standard is that men are visually retarded.
I’m not interested in discussing the harms of BDSM content–I believe 92 has THAT on lock down– which is overwhelmingly present in Crash Pad Series porn (as far as what I’ve seen). Yes, the dykes are hot. But the narrative is the same, including penetration as the primary sex act. Application different, reason the same.
I checked out this Crash Pad business. Strap-ons are a little too prominently featured in the intro clips to give me the impression that we’re moving away from phallocentrism and the recreation of hierarchical gender roles. Still, I’ll leave that discussion to practicing lesbians.
Well elkballet, just what did they use for visual arousal? I recall reading about that study, and thinking they had used what arouses men, with, as Nine points out, the focus (the viewer) always on the woman. Women just do not get off on objectifying their desire, unless their view point has been perverted, such as the crshpd site. That’s just not normal.
Pornography only exists to degrade women. Visual doesn’t enter into it. Unless of course, we’re talking how good some gay men are at fabric and clothing design? Oh. Not the example you had in mind?
I am speaking from the experience of 40+ years of being told that men ogle women and jack off to Playboy because they have this enhanced visual acuity/appreciation of “beauty”.
When I say “cultural standard”, I mean standard male behaviour as described by our culture. I am talking about the array of supposed ineptitudes – TV hubbies who can’t operate a vacuum and dudes who supposedly don’t know what tie goes with what shirt so Mommy/Wifey has to lay out his clothes for him vs. this supposed visual orientation. I am saying that our in culture, what we state as “fact” about men’s aesthetic sense is packed with contradictions that are convenient, if lame, excuses for selfish infantile behaviour including, as ND says, the mass exploitation of women by the porn industry.
I’d apologize for my less-than-precise choice of words, but your knickers are so obviously in such a big fat twist you’re trying to nitpick in order to dodge anyone calling bullshit on this.
However, I am speaking in generalizations, so don’t worry, no one is saying you aren’t a Very Visual boy. OK?
“Porn will never be female-centric,or be pro-female because its foundation was BUILT ON MISOGYNY, funfems. You can have a small little apartment, but the men have the entire building. The.Entire.Building. And you’re defending your wee little apartment, the apartment they ALLOWED you to have.”
Exactly Nelle! FunFeminists think being a stripper/porn actress/prostitute is some kind of act of ‘rebellion’ when in reality it’s just one of the two patriarchally correct female roles women are allowed: the homemaker or hooker, madonna or whore. That’s not rebellion, that’s total submission to the male-supremacist system.
When women in those professions are abused or killed, listen to what most men say about them…they are dirty sluts/whores/bitches and deserved it. This is your clientelle as a sex worker…people who despise you so much that they gloat when you are inured, raped or murdered.
When I was a kid I remember there was a a billboard campaign by started by families of murdered prostitutes. They would have a childhood photo of their daughter/sister/loved one with just the initials NHI under it. I found out later that NHI is police slang for “No Humans Involved”, which is what they would put on police reports when a woman or girl in prostitution was murdered.
That sums up how most men feel about the women in porn and prostition. Any atrocity can be committed against them because there are no humans involved.
“*The old chestnut about men being more “visual” is a huge crock. They are only more visual when it comes to ogling and using women. In everything else, the cultural standard is that men are visually retarded.”
Why is it so important to you that males are not the more visual of the sexes? What bone do you have to pick in saying that males are not more visual? The fact is that men have been shown to have significantly higher visual-spatial aptitudes than women. This would explain the heavily male preponderance in visual-oriented preoccupations such as video games and sports, as well as – yes, I’m going there – pornography. That isn’t to defend pornography as it is today, but it would explain how it would appeal to the more visual-oriented of the sexes. But I would go back to the question of why it is so important for your worldview that you deny that males are more visual-oriented than women. Surely you can oppose pornography without making up patently false claims? And why do “cultural standards” – of which I am sure you have misrepresented, but that’s irrelevant – have any necessary truth value to them? I thought you womyn were big on your opposition to cultural standards.
inb4 mansplaining, you’re-just-trying-to-get-laid, etc.
Let’s see where you’ve gotten the idea that men have better spatial reasoning. Video game, sports, and porn obsession are much better explained by cultural ideas about masculinity that emphasize violence, competition, dominance, etc. We can recognize what you call “cultural standards” without subscribing to the idea that they ought to direct our actions, thoughts, etc.
We can argue about the respective roles played by cultural influences and biological influences all day, but the fact is that there is no good way to resolve these arguments such that everybody could agree. I have my experience with my male body that you don’t know about, and you have your experiences that I don’t know about. But I would ask you again, why is it important at all to your arguments against porn that you deny any biological role? Porn is degrading to women if it is culturally influenced or not. Wouldn’t you agree?
Of course. Duh. But “men are visual” is often used as an excuse for the existence of an industry that banks on cultural and social dominance.
As for the biological role, I have spent quite a bit of time researching this. The general “gist” of the research is that basically it has long been acknowledged men are more visual. This is because most of the research used self-reporting. They would show men and women videos and have them report whether or not they were aroused. This resulted in reporting that men were visual and women were not.
However, what they realized was that women just weren’t, for whatever reason, aware they were aroused. When they tested physical response to visual stimuli, they found that women not only were just as aroused as men, they were aroused by a wider range of things.
Basically, men have a larger part of their brain devoted to visual stimuli, but it has no impact on how visually aroused they are. The only real difference is men are more aware/in touch with their visual arousal than women. Women are visually aroused just like men, men can also be mentally aroused just like only women are supposed to be.
Hmmm…This is not terribly important, but there’s something funny going on with the chronology of the posts. I posted a response to Male O. and it now appears to have been written 2.5 hours before his comment. Maybe it’s a timezone thing?
well thats one explanation. now lets get down to brass tacks: this was PIV-centric porn they were using as (and calling) “visual stimuli” right? as jilla suggests above.
if this is the case, another explanation for this “difference” would of course be that women were involuntarily physically aroused, which is the “human” response to the material. its designed to involuntarily physically arouse, which is why as laurelin says repeatedly on her own blog, feeling any “guilt” or self-disgust at ones physical response to porn is counterproductive (and why using “arousal” to justify its use is actually irrelevant, and doesnt justify it or really mean anything at all).
feeling mentally aroused, or sexxxay about watching the material is another thing entirely. men are aroused mentally at watching women be abused, and it makes them want to abuse a woman of their own (aka. it makes them want to fuck) and women (not surprisingly) dont feel the same way about watching, as jilla says, glorified images of their own destruction. about watching another woman be put at risk for pregnancy. about watching another woman engaging in the “sex-act” thats the least pleasurable and most dangerous to women as a sexual class. about having dangerous male sexuality both literally and physically shoved down her throat every single fucking minute of every single fucking day, and being expected to “like it” and having everyone call it “sex” when she knows better.
are people ever going to admit that porn induces action and actual abuse of actual women, on the part of men? and that the images are abusive? nope, prolly not. instead, we will cling desperately to the idiotic notion that “men are more visual.” even though as mentioned above, they dont seem to notice when there are clothes or toys or cereal all over the floor, and cant seem to accurately aim their urine stream after decades of trying.
FAIL.
Since we know now how plastic the brain is, I think what you describe is because well…can’t think of a better way of putting it…”practice makes perfect”.
And how are women mentally aroused? By visual imagining.
Did I actually say that? No. By the way, do you really think that womyn can’t internalise misogyny and act in misogynistic ways?
Where there is money to be made, there is power to be made. You’re watching them, does that not strike you as a power (seeing as the womyn and girls will have no idea who is and who isn’t getting off on them?)
Ready for Aileen’s handy rad fem analysis? Same shit, different toilet.
Because men aren’t the “fuckhole” class. They are the “fucker” class. All porn, even “feminist” porn is focused on men and men’s sexuality and their warped interpretation of it.
Male Observer,
If men are *so* visually inclined, why do they never notice if womyn get hair cuts or alter their appearance to increase fuckability status? Oh wait, cos they’re not visually inclined at all, and that’s a bunch of evo-psych buttshit.
what follows is a repost of a comment/reply i made on imdb in the terry zwigoff board:
(somebody else): How many guys aren’t superficial? By nature, guys are visually oriented. It’s the way male genes typically work.
(me): you are absolutely right –that’s why women are well adapted to living in caves and deep sea vents like anaerobic amoebae, blind and completely devoid of any visual acuity!
doubt me? HOW DARE YOU!?! why, it’s in the genes doncha know!
DUR-DUR-DUR-DUR-DUR-DUR…..DURHEYYYYY…..
Slightly OT: Why women don’t make good photographers/videographers. Nothing to do with being handicapped visually.
See the third photo down? See? You are never going to look like that. And THIS is why you are not making porn. You WOULDN’T WANT to look like this, first. And second? This look? This is his major talent. Strike out. ONLY talent.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/multimedia/camera-club/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/multimedia/camera-club/
Thanks Aileen Wuornos. The points about money as power and men being the ‘fucker class’ are spot on. Too bad men never considered respect to be the real currency. They never will, either. Too much is at stake for them to behave like human beings…
And so true about men never noticing anything outside of themselves! The day a man notices a woman’s haircut, will be the day I hand him $1,000. Even that will not suffice, as they get paid so much more to continue being a$$holes.
The camera is the porn consumer. Always. The camera is the viewer, always. Film is THE voyeur medium. Men are better at (sic) visual because it primarily requires consumption, capture, and owning. At some point, realizing what tools they are, men try to create arty photos or film, thinking that’s going to change what’s going on. Nah.
I have much to say on this subject, being intimately acquainted with it, but I just wanted to take a minute to say thank you for this marvelous post. This one goes into my porn re-education file for sharing with those who express an interest in porn critiques.
@Male Observer:
I always wonder why men are so heavily invested in believing that there are immutable gender differences in the brain. (Yeah, that was sarcasm.) Current research says the opposite, that men and women’s brains are 97% identical, and that 3% is highly amenable to external influences, so it’s rendered statistically negligible. What we know for certain is that social conditioning alters brain structure, it literally changes how we perceive and think about the world around us. As a recovering porn addict (female porn addict, that is) I can tell you point blank that habitual porn viewing heightens the visual stimuli/sexual arousal connection, it creates a dependency on it, it alters how you view the opposite sex (or the sex you’re attracted to), it creates new demands in the mind of the viewer for more, more, more visual material (ogling is a natural outcome of these demands). Everything men believe about their “natural” inclination to view porn/objectify women is wrong, wrong, so extraordinarily wrong that it would be amusing if it weren’t so tragic.
My brain is never going to be the same. I was perfectly content without porn several years ago, I had no interest in it, thought most of it was too ridiculous to be arousing. I developed a curiosity about it, eased myself into it with softcore, quickly became desensitized and dependent on it for arousal, needed more explicit porn to create the “porn high” I’d become accustomed to, got into hardcore stuff, used it more often, got even more dependent on it. When I decided to give it up, I’d succeeded in altering brain chemistry, succeeded in molding myself into a first-rate objectifier who “needed” porn.
I became a porn addict in my 30′s, much later in life than most men, who become dependent on it before they even reach 20, so I’m in an excellent position to tell you exactly what porn does to the brain. Most men think it’s a natural inclination because they begin using fairly early in life, they don’t have the same perspective.
Oh, and about the visual/spatial abilities. I don’t know where you got your data, but current research has shown that if you remove stereotype threat and provide education to compensate for women’s lack of experience early in life (boy toys provide more practice in these areas), women perform equally to men on tests of visual/spatial abilities.
“One could argue that it’s not the vagina which is the female sex organ, but the clitoris, with most of it arcing around the whole of the vulvar area.” This is a great point. Although now we may be operating on two different definitions. Is a sex organ the organ used for reproduction or sexual pleasure? Or both?
“We no longer have instincts, save survival…. Heterosexuality is coerced and forced upon all of us under the threat of social ostracization, and in some places, even DEATH. And hetero-normativity is, clearly, about male supremacy. FCM has PIV on LOCK DOWN and if y’all don’t get it already– how dangerous it is EVERY.FUCKING.TIME.– it’s because you don’t WANT to get it. The moment that humans figured out that PIV = baby..”
Do instincts fade over time? Also, reproduction is a form of survival instinct, isn’t it? Anyways, I actually sort of forget PIV = baby. With that in mind, it is true that PIV is always a risk for women. I’m so used to the messages that sex does not need to = procreation, that I was thinking without that benchmark. I also don’t want children, so I assumed any PIV intercourse that may take place in my future would be with condoms. (Or perhaps male birth control, if they would ever get around to inventing it…)
“Give me a fucking break! The CLITORIS exists SOLELY for female pleasure….Sure, penetration is pleasurable *for some women.* But ffs. Get a grip on your anatomy. The vaginal canal is not the end all, be all. And the costs/risks outweigh the benefits 10 to 1. Face it.”
I know that the vast majority of women cannot orgasm from vaginal penetration and many don’t find it pleasurable at all, but I always thought this was (or rather, could be) less of a design flaw with the vaginal canal and more a problem with how men use their penis. In the context of a male supremacist society, it would benefit men to believe that the woman’s lack of pleasure had nothing to do with them, but rather was just an inherent flaw in the vagina. Wouldn’t it? It’s the ultimate ego soother. It would also feed into their belief that vaginas were made for the man’s pleasure – not the woman’s. I’m giving the vaginal canal the benefit of the doubt, basically. Have there even been studies of how women react to vaginal penetration without a penis?
@factcheckme
I don’t think that really applies to what I was saying. Instinct is separate from society and culture. Culture defies instincts all the time. Modesty? Abstinence? Birth control? Also, wouldn’t that mean men have the instinct to please women in order to get the PIV they so desire?
I didn’t mean to insinuate that your beliefs were ridiculous or far reaching. I just didn’t really understand. It may be true that PIV is on the continuum of woman-hating, especially if you acknowledge that it is uniquely harmful to only women. I’m just so used to PIV-bashing among pornified men that it’s become hard for me to even see it that way. It’s like some of us are relishing the scraps we’re thrown under the table. When I look at mainstream pornography, it’s hard to believe that anyone could find PIV so objectionable. I’m just so used to the extreme misogyny in porn, that PIV seems…harmless. :/ But it’s not. I get that. I’m just desensitized.
well, thanks for acknowledging it i guess? but, to clarify, i didnt say that “PIV is on the continuum of woman-hating.” my point was (and i diagrammed it over at my place for claritys sake) is that theres a continuum of penis-in-vagina that starts with “vanilla” and ends with rape-murder and death from pregnancy-related complications. and that this continum represents the whole of het sexuality, and that its all on this continuum somewhere, and that EVEN what we call “vanilla” and therefore everything “more extreme” too (which everything is, duh. vanilla…then strawberry then chocolate right?) appears to be a direct line to the ultimate destruction of woman. and this is a problem.
as much as some more modern porn might be “other-orifices” oriented, heterosexuality isnt. most porn involves PIV at some point, and ALL heterosexuality includes PIV at some point too (or its not considered “sexual” or consummated at all). i would like to know though from the saturated and desensitized out there…how much modern porn doesnt involve PIV *at all*? 10%? 25%? all of it? none of it? i dont even know anymore. when i stopped watching porn, it all still included PIV but there was of course “other stuff too”.
About vaginal penetration: because we evolved to standing creatures after our basic anatomy was ‘designed’, we won’t have much vaginal stimulation when we are not on all fours. The head of the penis needs to stroke and hit the underside of the clitoris and urethra (? name) which are on the top of the vagina, not the bottom which is stroked with missionary and just about any other penetration.
The vagina isn’t a sex organ. It’s a means to an end.
So, a wife who previously had waist-length hair goes and gets a buzz cut. When her husband gets home from work, he says nothing. When she says, “Do you notice anything different about me?”, he follows with, “Oh, is that a new blouse?” Tell me more about how visual men are.
BOYCOTT AMERICAN WOMEN
Why American men should boycott American women
I am an American man, and I have decided to boycott American women. In a nutshell, American women are the most likely to cheat on you, to divorce you, to get fat, to steal half of your money in the divorce courts, don’t know how to cook or clean, don’t want to have children, etc. Therefore, what intelligent man would want to get involved with American women?
American women are generally immature, selfish, extremely arrogant and self-centered, mentally unstable, irresponsible, and highly unchaste. The behavior of most American women is utterly disgusting, to say the least.
This blog is my attempt to explain why I feel American women are inferior to foreign women (non-American women), and why American men should boycott American women, and date/marry only foreign (non-American) women.
BOYCOTT AMERICAN WOMEN!
I approve of your plan, dude. But I think you should take it a few steps further. How about you boycott all women? I don’t think it’s fair for American women to get to outsource having to deal with you to other, less privileged women. If that doesn’t sound doable for you, consider suicide. Merry Christmas.
“…but how can PIV itself be inherently degrading when it is actually instinctual for a women to desire it and required for the survival of any animal species?” – No Sugarcoating
Doesn’t this part especially, “when it is actually instinctual for a women to desire it”, imply then that lesbians and spinsters are somehow unnatural or Darwinian failures because they DO NOT instinctually “desire“ (not to mention the oxymoronic nature of having those two words in the same sentence) PIV?
Holy cow.
Great post ND. Thank you. And great responses from everyone.
The thing that makes me laugh/cry about people defending porn is that they actually think they are the ‘David’ of the story, not the Golith (sp?). They fancy themselves the underdog. They refuse to see the influence and the money that is being spent on and made from porn. Its’ absurd.
Male observer asks, because he obviously cannot see the questions as anything than purely theoretical;
“Why is it so important to you that males are not the more visual of the sexes?”
Why, I’ll tell you the exact reason for that, MO: we find that point terribly important for YOUR sake; your sake and the sake of every male on the planet. Because if it is really true that you lot are biologically hardwired to despise and mistreat us, then we obviously cannot allow you to exist any longer. And we (most of us, despite everything) truly hope it doesn’t have to come to that.
Ah Hectate, anyone who uses that as a screen name is more than welcome! She is one of my favourite goddesses :)
Oh hell yeah Jilla, I hadn’t even thought of it in that aspect before, that’s brilliant.
No Sugarcoating,
No, I don’t think there have been, but from every thing I’ve read, only about 27% of womyn can orgasm from penetration alone. There are little to no nerve endings inside the vagina (because how much would that fucking hurt when giving birth?) = very unlikely that pleasure comes from penetration of any sort. Not to mention, that it’s still dangerous because of the tears it cause in the vaginal tissues, if the object being used to penetrate is not clean & the risk of UTIs.
Actually, an increasing amount of pornography features no vaginal penetration at all and instead focuses soley on anal and oral penetration.
Yeah I’ve often wondered about this myself, advertising is a billion dollar industry that influences everyone (including me!) so why do so many men and colluding women want to believe that pornography is any different?
Suicide jokes aren’t cool. Your blog is though.
“Yeah I’ve often wondered about this myself, advertising is a billion dollar industry that influences everyone (including me!) so why do so many men and colluding women want to believe that pornography is any different?”
People don’t like to admit that they are influenced by advertising et al to begin with.
Admitting that porn is bad would tend to lead to the idea that not using it would be a good thing, and that’s not going to go down so well. Personally, I’m surprised so many people bother with the pretence, rather than coming out and telling everyone that they think hurting women is sexy. After all, that’s hardly an unpopular point of view.
That should be “Wheelock College” porn conference: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5003155114018800220&q=gail+dines&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0#docid=-4489853897776743667
Actually, an increasing amount of pornography features no vaginal penetration at all and instead focuses soley on anal and oral penetration.
##
If what I saw recently (senior, elderly, mature women search) is any indication, vaginal penetration hasn’t lost its cachet for men. Now they’re using double and triple penetration, animals, fists, arms, knives, broken bottles, anything which will hurt and harm. Followed by cum shots to the face.
I remind everyone of the study done at the Wheeler porn conference, where they proved dangerous, abusive porn is the most rented at your neighbourhood vid store. That’s the other thing men want to tell us: It’s just sex. Obviously we don’t like sex. We have pesonal issues.
A 1974 review by Angela Carter Of “Inside Linda Lovelace”, a fictional (her horrifying factual tell-all came later) autobiography of a porn star’s “desire” as dictated by industry.
–
“Some people”, our Lady of Hard-Core Porn reflectively begins her memoirs, “are born to greatness, others have greatness thrust upon them.” Her own fame devolves partly upon her own sexual virtuosity but, more, upon the demands of a society that utilises limited libidinal gratification as a soporific in a time of potential social disruption. She, the archetypal swinger, is the product of the “permissive” society she eulogises; but the notion of “permissiveness” can only arise in a society in which authoritarianism is deeply implicit. Now I am permitted as much libidinal gratification as I want. Yippee! But who is it who permits me? Why, the self-same institutions that hitherto forbade me! So, I am still in the same boat, though it has been painted a
different colour. I am still denied authentic sexual autonomy, perhaps even more cruelly than before, since now I have received permission to perform hitherto forbidden acts and so I have acquired an illusory sense of freedom that blinds me more than ever to the true nature of freedom itself.
With no surprise, one learns from the preface that Ms Lovelace is “no adherent of
Women’s Lib”. She preaches sexual freedom divorced from social or spiritual emancipation: “the only place she wants to be equal is in bed”. Nevertheless, she exemplifies what could be called “porn pride” when she states: “I have learned to do things with my mouth and vagina that few women anywhere can hope to achieve.” However, she gives credit for her training to Chuck, the “sexual engineer”, a libidinal Svengali who launched her in blue movies; she didn’t even invent it for herself, or learn it from her mother (which, I suppose, would be the natural way in a
less repressed society). In an interview published in the afterword, she claims always to achieve orgasm herself in the act of fellatio which is physiologically impossible. Therefore I suggest her relation to men and to her own sexuality is ambiguous, and, coloured by either a degree of self-deceit, or the desire to deceive.
Nevertheless, she can ingest an entire foot inside her vagina; we know not only because she tells us so (which wouldn’t be the strongest evidence of veracity) but because she has been filmed doing it. Fame, however, came with Deep Throat, since when her name has become synonymous with a fellatory technique that looks, to the cold eye, uncommonly like a sublimation of a suppressed castratory urge of immense proportions. If my sexuality had been as systematically exploited by men as Ms Lovelace’s has been, no doubt I, too, would want to swallow men’s cocks whole; it is a happy irony she should have found fame and fortune by doing so.
Now, in spite of the respect she has for her achievements as a unique phoenix of fuckery, Ms Lovelace does only what any accomplished whore is expected to do in a society where the profession of prostitution demands specific sexual virtuosities. Any Bangkok prostitute can blow smoke rings through her labia minor and be certain of applause and thanks. Her own fellatory technique is derived from that of a Japanese geisha (via, of course, Chuck. You wouldn’t find Ms Lovelace in a Japanese whore house, learning her trade the hard way.)
Not every girl can insert a foot inside her vagina and those with this talent are surely entitled to public recognition; but our society generally denies the prostitute both appreciation of and the opportunity to exercise particular sexual virtuosity and, besides, Ms Lovelace is no prostitute. Perish the thought. All is done for love. The pay in porno movies is “lousy” until she hits the big time — that is, until the porno movies become respectable. Sometimes, in her movies, she plays the role of a whore, but she is not a whore herself. Her attitude to sex is not commercial. It is sacramental.
“My God is now sex. Without sex, I’d die. Sex is everything.”
In the service of the god, she has taken the repertoire of sexual display from the commerce and intimacy of the brothel and allowed her performance to be frozen upon celluloid, condemned to a sequence of endless repetitions. In doing so, she has removed any element of tactile immediacy from her exposition of the potentialities of the body and therefore completely defused the sexual menace implicit in her own person and her polymorphously perverse talents. And that menace is enormous. If she can engulf a foot, what else could she not engulf? The owner of the foot in his entirety? The world itself?
But, though the cinema has become an imaginary brothel, it is not one in which the flesh on display is for sale. Hence it can never be handled. On the screen, she is safe from real contact with the impulses she arouses. (She constantly reiterates her own sexual exclusivity; she does not fuck with anybody. They must be special. They must be “swingers”.)
These defunct images of her sexual virtuosity do not involve nor implicitly challenge the potency of the spectator.
And, in the eternity of the celluloid, the cock exists as a thing in itself. The exigencies of porno-movie making means that: “Many of the cocks seen in the nitty-gritty close-ups don’t belong to the guys that are seen leading up to the action.” Because those who can act can’t fuck, and vice versa. Indeed, she reveals, many of the actors are homosexual; and the faces of the owners of the most active organs never appear on the screen. Dispossessed, then, of all human attributes but the anonymity of the genital organs, nothing is generated. Nothing will come of nothing.
Like a postulant, Ms Lovelace shaves herself before she engages in these primal yet abstract confrontations. She has removed all traces of the animal from her body, so that it has the cool sheen, not of flesh, but of a mineral substance. She is not an embodiment but a crystallisation, even a reification, of libido; her art or craft, the public exposition of sexual activity reduced to a geometric intersection of parts, her queasily kitsch prose style, her leer, her simper, her naïvety, her schoolgirl humour, effectively antiseptises all the danger from that most subversive and ambivalent aspect of our selves.
No more terror, no more magic. Sex utterly divorced from its reproductive function, its function as language and its function as warfare.
She is a shaven prisoner in a cage whose bars are composed of cocks. And she has been so thoroughly duped she seems quite happy there.
Each age gets the heroines it deserves and, by God, we deserve Linda Lovelace.
Boycott Boy seems to have lifted his rhetoric from “mail-order bride” adverts. I have seen these ads (in Men’s HEALTH magazine no less – I guess owning domestic slaves is considered good for a man’s health). That’s why he’s talking about “spoiled” non-subervient North American dogs – oops, I mean Women.
I thought the suicide joke quite appropriate.
While I’m on the topic of patriarchally-inappropriate comments, I watched the film Hard Candy last night. When the 14-year-old girl that the pedophile has lured into his house is about to castrate him, she says; “This really is one of the simplest operations you could imagine. Makes me wonder why they teach Girl Scouts things like camping and selling cookies when they could teach them something really useful like this.”
Word.
Jilla – Thanks for the link. I am passing this around.
Werent you just looking for something with ‘feminist’ in the title though? I think they define FP as something that meets certain criteria, like the Bechtel test or whatever.
You may think suicide is funny but if you were a survivor of suicide you wouldn’t.
I don’t think suicide is funny.
How exactly can one survive suicide?
If you survived it, it’s not suicide.
Jilla, don’t doubt that for a minute, but from a cursory glance at porn review sites it seems like vaginal penetration is meant to just be. ‘foreplay’ for anything more degrading, if that makes sense.
Gare’s comment made me chortle. Bechedel test for porn. Hah!
I hate the way feminist threads devolve into people finding the one thing they can hold the writer hostage with, and riding it.
Better you went to the Suicide Girls forum and pointed out the error there. It takes no courage at all to do it here. It’s just a way of shutting everything down.
I think pornography is inherently exploitative (like most industries) and serves to recast societal gender-roles in ways that disadvantage (or harm) women. I also use it.
Despite that confession, the “why” of it all still remains, but I think FactCheckMe’s assertion that PIV anything, including porn, is inherently problematic hits the right note. At one point does a pelvic thrust become anti-feminist? How can we tell the difference, upon insertion, between a gasp in pleasure and a gasp in pain? Does a woman’s desire to be stimulated with “harder” sex increase the incidence of rape, or make her a misogynist? If these questions sound stupid, it’s because sex and “anti-feminist sex” are largely indistinguishable once we move away from easy cases like “dog fucking,” Max Hardcore, and “puke porn.” With no easy distinctions it seems that if liking porn makes someone a bad feminist, liking any sort of phallic intercourse may as well.
Feminizing porn thus seems to really be about feminizing sex, especially since most fetishes seem to grow out of the inherent power differential between the various parties to a sexual encounter. That’s not to say it couldn’t (or shouldn’t) be changed, but to do requires a much more critical examination of our biological processes and the values surrounding them than a simple castigation of the porn industry can provide.
During 92′s previous multi part porn series, she made the statement ‘womens real sexuality far surpasses anything on a screen’. Maybe the word just hasnt got out
Don’t misquote me.
You should have googled survivor of suicide before you joked about it, Aileen. It means that I have lost someone close to suicide. My mother. I love this blog and I’ve been reading it for over a year. I read your blog, too, Aileen. I am a feminist and I’m majoring in women’s studies and I agree with everything Nine Deuce has ever posted. I ask that people not make suicide jokes or suggest people commit suicide because it is a trigger for me. It instantly makes me think of my mom shooting herself. Okay? Thanks.
I apologize, crucial d. I have only done so twice on the site with reference to men that I think the world would be better without. I definitely did not intend to trigger you or anyone else who has personally dealt with this issue.
andrew, i insist that you stop agreeing with me. cease and desist immediately!
Andrew makes me want to vomit just like porn, how weird!
Thanks for the post Nine Deuce – your writing on pornography is always brilliant.
Thank you; I accept and appreciate your apology.
I apologize too crucial d. I have also lost a very beloved friend to suicide and it is not funny at all.
In the context of the posts, I did not think that ND’s words were inappropriate – given that so many of us posters here make reference to feeling suicidal when we consider the depth and vastness of women-hating. This guy seemed to be despairing of some fantasy of being victimized by uppity North American Women, so calling his bluff in harsh terms did not seem out there to me, but I have the luxury of not carrying the same harrowing trauma that you do.
I do sincerely apologize for the pain this caused you.
@ fcm – “cease and desist immediately”? are you joking or do you actually want andrew to stop agreeing with you?
if you do i totally agree – he is an absolute jerkoff who can’t stop rubbing his male privilege in everyone’s face. (if you’ve read his comments on other threads re porn you’ll understand why i am so irked by him.)
he’s a privileged jerkoff enjoying a Privileged Jerkoff every night at women’s expense and he KNOWS how much it harms/damages the women in porn (and indirectly ALL women) but has said quite blatantly he just doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass.
all he’s done on this thread is regurgitate what you said in a vague, roundabout way and then diss nine deuce’s post in a vague, roundabout way.
i don’t think it (or ANY of what he says) is at all worth having my face rubbed in his godawful godbaggery. what an insufferably arrogant, BORING and VALUELESS little prick he is.
Thank you, Lizor. It’s been five years and some people think that’s long enough to be “over it” but I can’t get past it, I don’t think I ever will. Her death inspired me to return to school after a ten+ year hiatus and focus on women’s studies and I ultimately hope to help women affected by domestic abuse, as she was. I really didn’t mean to derail your comments section, Nine. I love your work. I’ve always been made to feel like a prude for hating porn. It’s good to know that there are others out there that feel the same way that I do about it and are able to express themselves eloquently on the subject. Thanks for that!
About the PIV in porn questions – I’ve watched a loooot of porn. Lately, I have been staying away from porn websites because I found some great feminist blogs like this that eloquently summarize everything that’s wrong with it instead of me having to watch it. So, I will tell you, yes – PIV is becoming increasingly absent in porn. Besides the obvious misogynistic aspects of many other sex acts in porn, the absence of PIV probably has its own meaning. While PIV can be painful and unpleasant, especially in porn, it is a sex act that can only be done with a woman. That’s important.
It’s my theory that the absence of PIV in porn is the denial of everything female, denial of female genitalia. It’s a denial of female sexuality. You said PIV is uniquely harmful to women, perhaps the opposite is also true. There was a website where people left comments about the porn, customer feedback, and one of the men complained that there was a double penetration and when the penis was in her vagina she looked like she might be enjoying it. He thought PIV should be banned from the website, actually. So delusional on so many levels, but from a man’s POV, PIV = female POSITIVE sexuality and therefore bad. I also saw a comment recently that “Why do pornstars even bother being in porn if they don’t do anal? They might as well be models.” Those are two of the most extreme examples I can think of.*
The first one was only unusual because a guy who acknowledged that anal was extremely “unpopular” with the vast majority of women thought double penetration would be pleasurable, for some reason. I kind of want to start a blog that just lists examples of this kind of attitude and how pervasive it is. Each post could be a response to one of the myths about porn and the men who use porn. It would definitely be triggering and graphic though, so I’m not sure anybody would want to read that. I’m not sure I’d want to write that. But I feel that it HAS to be exposed for what it is.
I know many anti-porn feminists stop watching porn, but when the proporn people start with their, “Oh, it’s a small amount of porn that’s degrading/You haven’t seen much, so you’re not qualified to talk about it..” I want to shout YES I HAVE! I wish I hadn’t, because I liked men a lot more before watching that shit! When someone asks me why I hate porn, I say “Because I’ve seen it.” Before I watched hardcore porn, I thought anti-porn feminists were just prudes or manhaters. I wasn’t even a funfem, I was “one of the boys”. Although after finding feminism I realized I was born this way. There have always been feminist instincts inside me. I just didn’t know what they were yet. I’m 17, soon to be 18. Most people would be excited, but all I can think of is how old guys on the street can fantasize about choking me on their penis without feeling guilty because I’m not a “child” anymore. What’s a pornier age than 18?
Andrew you sound unbelievably creepy. If you really want to help change things (which is why I assume you are here) you could go to sites like this:
National Organization for Men Against Sexism http://www.nomas.org/
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/ (you can join their STRENGTH TRAININGS & WORKSHOPS or
join Men Creating Change)
Also, there’s The Mentors in Violence Prevention http://www.jacksonkatz.com/mvp.html
Good Luck!
Oh my goddess Andrew, don’t you get tired of the taste of your foot in your mouth?
Crucial d:
I didn’t joke about it dude. I have known well, hm, let me count (P.S I am NOT trying to turn this into a pissing contest, I am just saying!):
1. One of my good friends little sisters killed herself when she was 14 and I was 15
2. *My* best friend killed herself when she was 16 and I was 15
3. The next year, the TWO friends I’d introduced the above to killed themselves six months apart.
4. Another six months down the track from that, my bf at the time killed himself in a car accident
5. This year, one of my good friends killed himself with an o/d.
And I have attempted suicide MANY times, although, thankfully not for at least a few years. I really am genuinely sorry for your loss, because it is a fucking shitty thing to deal with.
I am fairly desensitised to death though (those are just the people I know who have had a hand in their own death, not those who have died of illness, disease and old age, which makes the list bigger) and firmly believe that those around the person who committed suicide aren’t “survivors” because they’re not the ones who attempted/succeeded on their lives. One of the above friends who did kill herself has said the same thing, I remember the conversation that we had about it very clearly. If it seems like I am being callous to you, fair enough, but, I’m not apologising for my way of dealing with all the suicides in my life.
Believe me, I don’t think that suicide is funny, at all, so please don’t accuse me of making jokes were I wasn’t.
*where
you should try looking at queer porn from directors like courtney trouble (nofauxxx.com) and shine louise houston (crashpadseries.com) for “feminist” porn. also, look at the feminist porn awards. and also, there is porn that is technically feminist, but do not like to label themselves as feminist porn because “feminist” has a lot of complicated political implications that some people like to avoid. see cocksexual.com.
j – I’m aware of the existence of the Feminist Porn Awards. I’m sure that George Orwell, if he were alive, would write an essay about them. All of these sites completely fail, but that isn’t the point here at all. As I stated in the opening (and closing), I don’t care whether feminist porn does or does not exist, and I’m not going to spend all day seeking it out when there are millions of RAPE PORN sites out there and my time might be better spent attempting to bring awareness to/do something about that, as it is a far bigger problem than the fact that “feminist” porn is hard to find.
‘When someone asks me why I hate porn, I say “Because I’ve seen it.”’
Goddamn right, No Sugarcoating!
I think you might be right that in porn, woman-hating and woman-negating is actually far-reaching enough that PiV becomes the lesser evil, or even to some extent a symbol of acceptance of the female, which is why PiV is now being suppressed in favour of anal.
I used to be ‘one of the boys’, too. (I was never a funfem, because I always hated performing femininity.) Once or twice, I was told I had bigger balls than all the males in the room. It was intended as a compliment and I took it as such. But not today. Today I know that to be ‘one of the boys’ is to be a worthless creep, and to be ‘one of the girls’ means to be a slavish admirer of said worthless creeps. I’m one of the women.
‘I kind of want to start a blog that just lists examples of this kind of attitude and how pervasive it is. Each post could be a response to one of the myths about porn and the men who use porn. It would definitely be triggering and graphic though, so I’m not sure anybody would want to read that. I’m not sure I’d want to write that. But I feel that it HAS to be exposed for what it is.’
I’d read it. You’re right, it must be exposed. You fear it would all be triggering and depressing, but I think it would be balanced out by how elating it is to see someone stand up for truth and human decency.
Crucial D:
Again, I apologise if it seemed like I was joking, but I wasn’t. I am very sorry if my comments seem callous, because I forget that not every one is as desensitised to death as me, and it’s good to hear/read that you’ve still managed to honour her memory by doing well in your life.
No Sugarcoating:
I too used to be an avid porn consumer/pirater (seeing as I never *paid* for it, but I was encouraging it) and when I first came to Nine’s blog I was defending it and BDSM and a whole bunch of other shit I despise now.
‘So delusional on so many levels, but from a man’s POV, PIV = female POSITIVE sexuality and therefore bad. I also saw a comment recently that “Why do pornstars even bother being in porn if they don’t do anal? They might as well be models.” Those are two of the most extreme examples I can think of.*’
This doesn’t surprise me either, I’ve seen porn users talk about how “weak” female pornstituted womyn and girls are because after they are anally raped on camera for the first time, many of them quit because of the damage they sustain. Dana DeArmond, who does do anal scenes, still cops nothing but shit from her “fans” either way. The fact that 18 is the age for ‘legal’ porn is very telling too, we are still children at that age (despite us thinking that we are not!) and hell, we’re still children really even into our twenties.
I first saw porn at age 11 and watched it for many years, it has dangerously warped my sexuality and it’s taken so much work for me to de-condition myself from accepting womon-hatred and making hate (Gail Dines) to girls and womyns bodies.
‘The first one was only unusual because a guy who acknowledged that anal was extremely “unpopular” with the vast majority of women thought double penetration would be pleasurable, for some reason. I kind of want to start a blog that just lists examples of this kind of attitude and how pervasive it is. Each post could be a response to one of the myths about porn and the men who use porn. It would definitely be triggering and graphic though, so I’m not sure anybody would want to read that. I’m not sure I’d want to write that. But I feel that it HAS to be exposed for what it is.’
This is a really fantastic idea, if you’d be willing, I would love to help with something like that, it needs to be done. This shit needs to be exposed for the vile, anti-womon junk that it is.
This isn’t my blog, but thank you for sharing that No Sugarcoating.
I am so goddammed triggered by manipulative people.
The reason I openedwhy admitting I use porn, besides that ND asked “me” to, is because I didnt want anything I said to be misinterpreted as some sort of defense.
This, however, is an anti-porn post, and I am wondering if that goes far enough, since it seems that the same problems present in porn are present in most phallic sex as well. Like I already said, Max Hardcore is an easy case as that kind of behavior is offensive in both contexts, but what about the more “vanilla” porn? Some aren’t remarkable at all, but if they are still degrading to women then I fail to see how the sex lives of an overwhelming majority of people aren’t as well.
If I am right then there should be a conversation about what types of sexual behavior are inherently coercive or degrading. Whether or not a camera is present seems irrelevant.
Personally, I couldn’t think of a more perfect illustration of male domination than jumping on top of something, sticking my penis in it, pumping until it stopped feeling good, and then withdrawing.
The presence of the camera is very goddamned significant. I won’t pretend that people — even smart ones — come away from a lifetime of social conditioning without recreating patriarchal rituals in their sex lives, but that’s a far cry from purposely exaggerating them for the purpose of making a profit on anti-woman propaganda and pushing that anti-woman propaganda out into a world which could definitely do without it, thereby making life harder for women and increasing the chances that their real-life sexual encounters will be abusive and male-supremacist.
i just want to say thanx to everyone for the comments. this has opened up a dialogue about a subject that i wanted nine deuce to write about, guys being visually stimulated and all. as a male feminist, i have been told that the best way to help other feminists is to talk about feminism to men… and let me tell you this is not a walk in the park. men do pass off porn consumption as totally natural excluding the role/ways their socialization plays on their consciousness.
No Sugar Coating:
I feel for you! Being 17/18 was tough for me, and it wasn’t made any easier by the douchebags who kept mentioning my age during sex.
“Tell me how old you are!” Ugh.. As if I needed more reasons to feel icked out about their sexual intrest in me in the first place (seeing as I was clearly disturbed and a borderline addict).
I turned 20 a month ago and it was SO NICE to just be out of that late teens age bracket. I hope you do go through with that blog. It would be really awful to read, but I think it would be important too. Let me know if you want any help.
j – why don’t you read the thread?
The “feminist porn awards” and “crashpad” have already been linked and a discussion of the content there has already been started. If you took the time to get up to speed, you could contribute by telling us why you think this content IS feminist.
Also, maybe you could elaborate a bit as to why, as you say ““feminist” has a lot of complicated political implications that some people like to avoid”. Could it be that the central tenet of porn is that, sexually speaking, men are above and do the shitting and women are below and get shat upon, so “feminist” in the language of porn, is anti-sexual?
FTR, I propose that feminism is one of the very few pro-sexuality areas of discourse out there right now, what with porn being so anti-sex and so ubiquitous.
Nine Deuce– I don’t disagree with your goal of raising awareness about stuff like rape porn, and in fact, I applaud you for it, but I’m just wary of the way you’re talking about the subject. Yes, you’re right, there are people who are full-on defensive about porn without considering the problems of most porn out there. It’s total denial and essentially saying, “[ALL] PORN IS GOOD!” (Likewise, it doesn’t do any good to say that all porn is evil, either). My concern is that it’s a little condescending the way you are disregarding feminist porn and generalizing about people who produce or work with ethical porn as only talking about how awesome porn is and ignoring the bad stuff. Maybe that’s what you’ve noticed, but I’ve noticed the opposite. Whether or not you agree with the existence of feminist porn (I prefer “ethical porn”—ethical in production, conscious about issues of agency and self-representation in marketing), there are plenty of people in the industry who do enjoy their work, have the sense that the personal is political and have perfectly valid reasons for wanting to be in the porn industry. To imply that their work is unimportant simply because they’re a minority within the larger porn industry denies them the ability to speak for themselves and fails to recognize the good things that they do. And it’s also generalizing A LOT to say that “no one” wants to see feminist porn. There are a lot of people who do want to see ethical porn that isn’t oppressive with stuff like rape porn or all that racist “ORIENTAL PORN” or whatever (which is why I brought up queer porn– I’m not sure why you think they are “fail”, but these people are representing themselves in ways they wish to be, and this is a HUGE deal for the queer community because queer sex has a history of being legally defined as obscene— again, kind of denying agency, yeah?). And for people participating in the production of that kind of porn, it is doing some kind of good in the industry because it recognizes the possibility for porn to NOT be disgusting and degrading. Maybe you don’t care, but I think one effect of ethical/feminist/queer porn is to make people think about ways in which porn can be positive and still be attractive for consumers and performers. Porn producers don’t have to treat porn performers like shit and exploit them. Good working conditions can exist and I’d like to believe that if people knew that and that they are already planning on entering this industry, they’d rather choose to work for companies that aren’t producing exploitative stuff. Point is, the reason why a small minority of people are talking so much about this stuff is because this small percentage of the industry is actually trying to NOT be exploitative. It’s entirely possible to be pro-ethical porn and ACTIVELY anti-unethical porn at the same time.
Again, here you are taking the focus off the problem/the vast majority and placing it on unicorns.
@Andrew
After your last post, I think you might be a troll but I write this in ernest hoping that some of it starts to make sense to you.
People behave differently in front of an audience. Whether it be in person or on camera. It’s called ‘the observer effect’. Many different studies have been done on this. An easy to understand example would be that people are more likely to wash their hands in a bathroom if someone else is there.
Also, humans, whether by nature or nurture, are prone to conformity. There are also numerous studies done on that subject too. And women, who are smaller in size have an extra incentive to conform.
In short, I think you need to do some more homework. The observer effect is fairly common knowledge for most adults. Please look into it and try to understand.
I did find your words callous and I cried when I read them. Her suicide has left me with the pesky side effect of being sensitive. SOS support groups acknowledge that their loved one’s pain is over but we are left with the pain of blaming ourselves and wondering what we could have and should have done differently. It’s different than losing a friend. She was the only mother I’ll ever have and knowing that she felt so horrible about life that she put a bullet in her chest rips me open. I think about her everyday and any mention of suicide puts me in a very dark place. I was watching an episode of House and a woman put a gun to her mouth and I couldn’t get the remote fast enough. I was shaking and weeping because it was just too real to me.
I have worked as a professional photographer, and “ambulance chaser”, a “shooter”. When beginning, and being sent out to cover events, I was told “find some young woman, blonde preferably and keep it on her.” That’s your money shot.
Apart from the fact that I was told that, clearly, and it worked to bring me A1 and a day’s wages, I can see that being used in porn. Even in so-called feminist porn, the camera is on the woman, her reaction, her moaning, her pain, her fear, the disgusting look of cum and mascara mixed drizzling down her face. The camera is NEVER anywhere else, or no-one would watch it and buy it.
“s that theres a continuum of penis-in-vagina that starts with “vanilla” and ends with rape-murder and death from pregnancy-related complications. and that this continum represents the whole of het sexuality, and that its all on this continuum somewhere, and that EVEN what we call “vanilla” and therefore everything “more extreme” too (which everything is, duh. vanilla…then strawberry then chocolate right?) appears to be a direct line to the ultimate destruction of woman. and this is a problem.”
PIV does not represent the whole of heterosexuality. Your critique works from the point of view of porn, but fortunately private sexual happenings do not have to be like pornography. The culture of porn is something that has to be fought against, and that is completely horrible and damaging, but it doesn’t have to rule the sex lives of straight people.
Feminist dudes (like the guy from “masculine mystique”) and ones I know IRL acknowledge that women liking/not liking PIV should be about as controversial as women liking/not liking mustard on their sandwiches. Its only a big deal to dudes like andrew who see it as a conquest. I am almost certain thats why he agrees with ya. PIV can be treated as something other than the pinnacle of sex for heterosexual couples. Ones that do have a reasonable attitude towards sexuality and are open about it can change the way other porn indoctrinated people see their own sexual potential. Even in “intercourse” andrea dworkin discusses the possibilities of PIV looking very different than what most people conventionally conceive of it (with female orgasm providing most of the stimulation instead of it being all about thrusting and friction)- that had a powerful effect on me. The idea that sex can be rethought to such an extent was pretty spiffy, made me a lot more optimistic about dudes. Relationships can be a place to team up and work together against oppressive forces like pornography style sexuality. Knowing people who are perfectly happy not fitting the mold of gender roles is something that has had a real effect in the world. Acceptance of gays and being pro-gay rights was a really recent shift, and the number one determinant of changing from an anti-gay to pro-gay stance was simply knowing a homosexual. Coming out did something powerful to society, especially the younger generations. Being fat and happy and not ashamed of it helps many people. The Out project for atheists has made me feel less alienated in the borderline theocracy I live in-it matters to me, a lot. We are all connected; honesty and integrity in action does improve the world for other people who share an oppressive situation. It is one of those small things that can really make a difference over time.
Okay the rest of my comment is towards several other posters. They are talking about evolution in a truly uninformed manner, talking about how much women inherently do/do not like PIV, or how many nerve endings are in the vagina, etc. Its completely besides the point. We don’t have the needed information to understand how complex human behavior has evolved, period. Any of it. We don’t have a recent ancestor to work off of or the mechanism of the behavior-those are two things that developmental biologists NEED to make a claim on the evolution of anything. Its crap. Also, human sexual is really fucking diverse. It cannot be put into a box or generalized in any real way, and it is highly subject to social conditioning. The limits of what can be changed over a lifetime within an individual’s sexuality is pretty wide ranging, not to say that it is something that we all have under our conscious control all the time or something (obviously). For an extreme example: there are whole groups of people who like to fuck cars, exclusively. There were enough for a conference and a BBC documentary. There are countless things like that within human sexuality that occur repeatedly (which rules out their existence being some kind of fluke), and there aren’t any real answers at this point. Things like the 1000 year obsession with bound feet are an example of a weird fetish being imposed on the general population with great success.
Human sexuality has fuckall to do with “natural”, I think the goal should be more about being authentic than natural.
Poor Janitors.
All these stats tell me is that it’s about time feminists liberate janitors. We haven’t inflated this movement enough. We need MORE people OTHER THAN WOMEN to save.
…what with all the time we’ll have left over now that we’ve saved porn by making “feminist porn” for approximately 15 people across the globe–we can now focus on making sure janitors feel sexy.
Now that our husbands, significant others, brothers, uncles, friends, coworkers, fellow apartment dwellers, MEN–now that they finally have all this ethical stuff to watch I bet they will stop raping us and beating us and verbally abusing us and doing all that other stuff they do in 90% of the porn out there. Right?
Riiiigght.
Oh and men aren’t visual. I know this because I know it. Jacking off to 4 square inches of female genitalia is *not* visual. Jacking off to the same body parts over and over-all looking approximately the same (I mean, come on)-is NOT visual. If they’re so fricking visually wired, why aren’t they delighting in ALL SORTS of images? What about the gold finches or the sistine chapel or greek statues? What about all that *brilliant art* they’ve been shoving down our throats as “masterpieces” for centuries? They claim they have designed and “erected” (ahem) all the great buildings and paintings and monuments. Of course you have.
Now splooge on it.
Men aren’t visual.
@Skeptifem,
I suppose PIV does not have to engender much “thrusting and friction,” but you acknowledge at least that that type of intercourse (the overwhelming majority) is problematic. I said, based on FCM’s observation, that there should be a conversation about whether even “vanilla” sex (as opposed to just porn) could be particularly offensive, abrasive, or degrading. It looks like Dworkin had the same idea.
@Valerie,
The observer effect does not illustrate why porn is particularly problematic. These women are certainly acting differently than they would in a private setting, and that may create an additional set of problems regarding the expectations it creates in viewers, but it is only when these acts are intertwined with ideas of male domination that they become feminist issues. That, at least to me, seems to make the substance more problematic than the fact there is a camera in the room. Moreover, the observer effect would not contemplate situations wherein the “actors” (both) do not realize they are being taped. I doubt that kind of pornography would necessarily be okay.
Anyway, this point is straightforward, the criticisms directed at porn could and should likely be directed at the way normal intercourse takes place off-camera as well. As for “trolling,” I wouldn’t have said anything if FCM’s idea wasn’t dismissively cast aside by the majority of readers. I would much rather be a troll than someone who refused to treat the subject seriously.
i am sorry, but this is just a baldfaced fucking lie. either you are lying, or the “feminist doods” you know are lying. there is JUST NO WAY that this is true.
no PIV = abstinence. everyone knows this. now, i am not talking about each and every encounter NECESSARILY, because there are those alt couples who do “other stuff too!!!!111!1!” and pat themselves on the back for being so sexually diverse, and stuff, and things. i am talking about het sexuality in its entirety, AS a sexuality. its PIV-based. meaning, if you are straight and partnered with someone who is NEVER, and i mean NEVER going to have PIV with you, especially by choice, this relationship is unconsummated, that person is prudish, or there are hangups or issues etc etc. you know its true, and so do i.
also, as i say repeatedly on my blog, i am talking about the way things ARE. not the way they SHOULD be or COULD be or the way i wish it were. IF there are a tiny handful of people who this does not apply to, they are as elusive as “feminist porn” and you are being completely disingenuous if you are spending any time at all discussing them, instead of acknowledging my point.
and PS. those doods are so totally lying.
This is not going to be a popular comment, but girls, I feel it needs to be said.
I am a 22-year-old woman who is bisexual and enjoys watching pornography. I have been raped, and I have witnessed violence against women first-hand. However, I do object to your article, not only because I do not believe /all/ porn is bad, but also because I think your experiment fails intellectually. Here is why.
First off – I do not doubt that some men (and indeed women) do enjoy the subjugation of women, even in a sexual manner. However, in saying that “all men who enjoy porn” also enjoy being violent towards women, you are condemning millions, if not billions, of decent fathers, husbands, grandfathers, uncles and brothers, (most likely some of them your own), and in fact, your analogy falls apart almost at first glance.
Let’s look at in detail.
Essentially, your argument goes, that if we enjoy watching something violent, and it inspires in us certain emotions (e.g. it turns us on), then we must, necessarily, enjoy what we are seeing, in the manner of the emotion (e.g. sexually). Now, whilst this appears to make logical sense, it is in fact erroneous. Take those who watch musicals. Whilst they enjoy watching people singing about something (e.g. singing in the rain), it inspires in them a certain emotion (e.g. happiness), it does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they enjoy the rain, by the association with singing they have enjoyed; many will in fact be averse to it, and some may even be scared of thunderstorms.
Let us now look at porn. Whilst some people may indeed enjoy sadism, the majority are unlikely to find the sadistic act itself a turn-on. Porn is not about violence; porn is about watching graphic, visceral sex; the images are explicit and often demeaning to the women involved, but simply put, they hardly put the men in a particularly dignified light either. Often, it is true, men are exaggeratedly dominant in these roles; but I would argue that this is often just a hyperbolic representation of the feeling of sexualised masculinity, of dominance or “machismo”, that does not neccessitate men getting off at the sight of women in pain.
Secondly, I think the nature of watching porn needs to be taken into account. Porn is simply sex, no strings, no fuss, just something to jack off to briefly. Porn is not the sort of movie short wherein you carefully consider the title before watching. Yes, frequently words such as “slut”, “whore” and “cunt” are used, and it is very easy to perceive this as a demeaning insult to women. However, porn isn’t about women – it is just about sex, which is exactly what these titles convey. Porn is a fantasy – not to say that men fantasize about brutalising women, but rather that they are able to briefly suspend their concept of “women” from the sex act. What is being depicted, at that time, is not a “woman” – it is a “slut”, “whore” or “cunt”, that is to say, it is a fictious construct of an object whose purpose is entirely for sex. This is precisely because the majority of men do not want to see “women” being used for sex acts, hardcore or otherwise – rather, they want to see the stimulus (a body) in a ficticious vacuum, aside from the emotional or intellectual considerations which sex with a “woman” innately connotes. Similarly, the men themselves in porn are objectified – most do not show their faces, and in fact are reduced to nothing more than a disconnected groin section, in affect, a floating penis, detached from any real person or “man”.
Thirdly – some women have argued that porn’s focus on the woman in the film is objectifying, and further proves the violent intent, by focussing on her reactions, without which, the film would not be sold. To this, I can but be shocked that anyone could miss the point, that the female body is of *course* the centre of attention in pornography aimed at heterosexual males, simply because this market, which is the largest target audience of pornography, does not find the male anatomy attractive. To put it another way, if they wanted to watch naked men romping, there’s plenty of gay porn out there, which focusses on the men involved (Google it – I got 21,800,000 results – way above the number for “rape”, “brutal” or “dog” porn). The lack of male presence in porn aimed at heterosexual men is nothing to do with inequality, simply that the man’s presence, beyond functioning as desired, is a turn-off. Lesbian and gay porn, however, focusses equally on both partners, as both are viable attractions for the audience.
Finally, I did my own googling experiment on different types of porn, just to show where it fails. The problem is, the act of masturbation is uniquely isolated from man’s other faculties, that is to say, it is completely separate from any emotional or intellectual interference. The desire for sex with a specific partner carries with it emotional and intellectual desires, understandings and consequences; the desire to masturbate (ignoring any debate as to the ethical value of the act itself, which, I will add, I believe to not only be harmless, but in fact healthy) does not. Therefore, the unpopularity of the term “feminist porn”, I would suggest, has nothing to do with the objection to the concept of sexual equality, but merely the fact that “feminist” is a term of intellectual concern, and as I just stated, the desire for masturbation refrains from intellectual consideration. Furthermore, I’d argue that the overwhelming popularity of such searches as “dog porn”, and the graphic nature of the terms used to describe it, have less to do with degradation of women, and are more inspired by man’s obsession with witnessing brutality and extremity in any human behaviour.
Let’s put it to the test.
First, let’s get the nasty stuff out of the way. How much of the popularity of searches such as “dog porn”, and, indeed “rape porn” is because of our obsession with disgusting spectacle, extremity and ugliness?
Not to start too extreme, I googled “Ugly porn.” Even I was surprised with the overwhelming popularity: 3,760,000 results – far more than either “rape porn” (1,860,000) or “brutal porn” (2,810,000 results).
Next I tried something more extreme. I googled “Extreme porn” – which came up with a whopping 69,900,000 results. I narrowed it down a bit, trying to think of strange catergories of porn that had been missed off the list, including:
- Weird porn – 4,380,000 results, showing how fascinated we are by bizarre acts.
– Funny porn – 70,600,000 results makes it laughably more popular than “dog porn”, at 47,600,000 results.
– Feet porn – 5,800,000 results, making it more popular than “rape porn” and “brutal porn” combined (4,670,000).
– Vegetable porn – 901,000 results (getting your five-a-day in a more unique fashion proved far more popular than violent “redneck porn”).
Removing women from the equation altogether, I decided a new tactic. I googled “brutal gay porn”, to see if it was true that all degradation in porn is directed towards women. The result? 33,100,000 results, or 11x the amount of heterosexual “brutal porn”.
I also had a look for anything that would back up my argument that porn is about fantasy, and does not in fact concern the concept of “woman” or indeed “man”, so much as it does “anatomy of the desired sex”. Cartoon porn, which involves no real humans whatsoever, proved overwhelmingly popular, with 3,260,000 results; hentai (a form of Japanese animated pornography) came in at 73,000,000 results.
Finally,I googled the following, to try to prove that an intellectual term such as “feminist” will not work in a search engine when combined with “porn” because porn’s function in masturbation is disassociated from any intellectual concern:
Republican Porn – 1,450,000 results, none of which involved any actual porn (most were news articles related to Republicans’ scandalous involvement in porn or their stances on porn).
Socialist porn – 474,000 results. Surprisingly, the liberals have less internet association with pornography than the right-wing. Once again, no actual porn involved.
Marxist porn – 152,000 results – yes, a porn that is actually far less popular than “feminist porn”, which comparatively has a whopping 322,000 results.
Post-modernist porn – only slightly more popular than the feminists, with 351,000 results.
Dadaist porn – 510,000 results.
For my last google of the evening, I decided to look for an atonym to “feminist” that would still have the same intellectual distancing effect when googled in conjunction with “porn”. “Mysogynistic porn” comes up with 1,630,000 results – however, after 34 pages, I have not seen one single pornographic entry, merely a very long list of articles. Even if men are looking for degrading pornography (and I am not denying it exists), using an intellectual concept in a search engine clearly does not work for finding actual porn.
My apologies that this post is around the same length as the article itself; I just felt this needed saying. I’m not saying violence against women doesn’t exist, in porn and elsewhere, and I’m certainly not saying it’s something we should take a blase “shit happens, you can’t do anything to stop it” attitude towards. However, I am saying that pornography is not by any means synonymous with sexual violence, and that it is possible to enjoy this sort of media without enjoying the subjugation of women.
Someone else please respond to this. I’m tired.
To quote an interview with Audre Lorde by Susan Leigh Star:
“The s/m concept of “vanilla” sex is sex devoid of passion. They are saying that there can be no passion without unequal power. That feels very sad and lonely to me, and destructive. The linkage of passion to dominance/subordination is the prototype of the heterosexual image of male-female relationships, one which justifies pornography. Women are supposed to love being brutalized. This is also the prototypical justification of all relationships of oppression—that the subordinate one who is “different” enjoys the inferior position.”
There is no such thing as “Vanilla” pornography. Maybe if you get a time machine and go back to the seventies, or sixties, but in this day and age, no pornographic film is complete without calling a womon a cunt, or a whore, or a slut at some point. Or choking her. Or ejaculating on her face.
Feminist porn is an oxymoron, like Microsoft Works or Vegan Butcher. Let’s take the “feminist” porn awards for example, one of their winners was the Rock River Prison “movie” which was about a womon going into prison and being raped by prison guards (no consent can exist where one is in a position of authority over another) and raped into initiated of “prison gangs”. Not to mention that this whole concept is so classist, and racist but the idea that fucking between people who aren’t equal is romanticised pretty much nulls and voids your “point” IMHO.
Something that has the literal meaning of “The Graphic Depiction of the Lowest Whores” is never going to be ethical, and will always be misogynist. One can not polish a turd.
Crucial D: I am sorry for your loss. I am not sorry for my choice of words though, I realise that losing friends and non-direct relatives is very different to losing your mother. However, my point remains the same.
No it doesn’t, but it is certainly the first thing that springs to het minds when you mention the word “fucking”.
Skeptifem, I am also noticing that you are not mentioning lesbians at all, I find that significant, although I can’t quite articulate why.
That’s still phallocentric/penetration centric.
Bound feet was not imposed on “the general population” – it was imposed and forced upon womyn and girls, by men and by turning womyn into token torturers. I really recommend you read Gyn/Ecology by Dr. Mary Daly.
Ask yourself this. WHY. WHY. WHY. WHY do some womyn “enjoy” being turned into sexual beasts of burden?
Do you not know that the majority of rapes and sexual abuse are perpertrated on girls and womyn by their fathers, husbands, grand fathers, uncles and brothers?
Seeing womyn and girls being raped for cash is very different from singing. Orgasm is a very powerful conditioning tool.
Oh noez! Patriarhy hurtz men too?!!!11! Porn is the graphic depiction of the lowest whores. Porn is the graphic depiction of the lowest whores. Porn is the graphic depiction of the lowest whores. Porn is the graphic depiction of the lowest whores. Porn is the graphic depiction of the lowest whores.
Especially if you consider that penises are still meant to be a symbol of power, the “seat” of masculinity, the symbol of domination and male conquest. The word vagina literally means “Sheath” – it is a void, it is an empty, it is a hole. While men in pornography may be just penises, they are penis with power. Womyn and girls do not have that “luxury”.
Porn is not just sex. Penis + perceived orifice =\= sex. Do you not see how you’ve just confirmed what many of us have written in that one sentence? There are human womyn and girls in that who do have strings attached to their “scenes” who do have to deal with a lot of shit and have no idea who is jacking off to their image, where or when. Also, they don’t get royalties.
Porn is not just fantasy. What you are witnessing is a womon/girl’s reality. For every double penetration, every cum shot, every “br00tal anal fucking” there is actual a human being, living it IN REALITY. And the fact that men and yourself have managed to schism the fact that there is a live human being being pay-per-raped to “it’s just fantasy” is very telling.
(emphasis mine) And you have no problem with womyn and girls being objectified? Being shown as just an object to penetrate? There is no vacuum by the way. That womyn/girl that you are watching being pay-per-raped is someone’s daughter, or someone’s sister, or someone’s mother. The men who watch this material rapidly forget/ignore this, but then when in their own bedroom, forget that the womon/girl they are with is also someone’s daughter, someone’s sister and possibly someone’s mother.
Gay male pornography also does not feature many of the degrading and dehumanising acts that one will witness in heterosexual pornography. How do I know? Oh right, I’ve seen it.
Lesbian porn is an even bigger oxymoron than feminist porn. “Lesbian” porn is a male constructed, male-identified wishful thinking of what lesbianism is (and it is nothing like it) and the target audience for “lesbian” pornography is of course, still heterosexual men, not lesbian womyn.
This is ridiculous. Cartoon porn still involves the graphic depiction of womyn as the vilest whores, often it is more violent than non-cartoon pornography because the makers feel like they can “get away with” much more. Most of the hentai I’ve ever seen, even the “vanilla” shit, is depictions of rape.
Pornography is sexual violence. You are enjoying the subjugation of womyn by watching it, you are participating in violence against womyn by watching and therefore, supporting it. By the way, you still have no idea if the womon or girl involved in it is a) of legal age, b) actually consenting for real c) only consenting under duress and c) has been a survivor of rape or sexual assault herself.
This is coming from someone who used to have the exact same attitude as you by the way. Nine has written extensively on why she hates pornography, and spring boarded me to write my own.
As Nine said:
*emphasis in the Lorde quote is my own.
Nine, what response is there to someone who says the same thing as any sexual abuser, but takes 800 words to say it and thereby thinks they’ve said something original?
You know me. This is where I left, last time.
And as I said then too, I believe, they’re just using these conversations as a kind of foreplay for whacking off later, or while. This thread turns them on, and finally, achieves nothing for us.
I hear you, Jilla — and I waffled about approving the comment — but I thought it needed a response. I’m just too busy/tired of repeating myself today (maybe I’ll be up to it tomorrow).
“you are condemning millions, if not billions, of decent fathers, husbands, grandfathers, uncles and brothers,”
Yes, I think condemning most members of the male gender is a recurring theme of the blog. Though, “not my Nigel”, except when it is.
“the images are explicit and often demeaning to the women involved, but simply put, they hardly put the men in a particularly dignified light either.”
Oh noes! What about the menz! Who are clearly being demeaned to some small extent so we can ignore what’s happening to the woman.
“Often, it is true, men are exaggeratedly dominant in these roles; but I would argue that this is often just a hyperbolic representation of the feeling of sexualised masculinity, of dominance or “machismo”, that does not neccessitate men getting off at the sight of women in pain.”
So…they don’t want to hurt women, they just want to dominate them? Well, that’s slightly reassuring, I guess.
“Yes, frequently words such as “slut”, “whore” and “cunt” are used, and it is very easy to perceive this as a demeaning insult to women”
It is very easy, yes. What do you imagine would happen if you went round calling people that outside of porn? Those words (attempts at reclaiming aside) are flat out insults.
“What is being depicted, at that time, is not a “woman” – it is a “slut”, “whore” or “cunt”, that is to say, it is a fictious construct of an object whose purpose is entirely for sex”
You don’t see the reduction of women to literal sex objects to be a teensy bit worrying?
“aside from the emotional or intellectual considerations which sex with a “woman” innately connotes.”
Occasionally, perhaps, but not that often. The woman is there to pretend to enjoy what’s going on (which isn’t that alarming, excepting when she’s pretending to enjoy something rather alarming, which isn’t that rare), or fear/disgust/pain at the approach of the mighty phallus.
“Similarly, the men themselves in porn are objectified – most do not show their faces, and in fact are reduced to nothing more than a disconnected groin section, in affect, a floating penis, detached from any real person or “man”.”
Why then have there not been constructed a list of not-insults like cunt, whore, slut used to label this other mere object then?
“To this, I can but be shocked that anyone could miss the point, that the female body is of *course* the centre of attention in pornography aimed at heterosexual males, simply because this market, which is the largest target audience of pornography, does not find the male anatomy attractive.”
That’s the usual response given by heterosexual porn users…endless complaining about switching to shots of the man’s face while they’re enjoying videos of bits going in othe rbits.
“How much of the popularity of searches such as “dog porn”, and, indeed “rape porn” is because of our obsession with disgusting spectacle, extremity and ugliness?”
So, you are saying that such things do not constitute porn, because they are not used for sexual gratification? I have a hard time believing that.
“I also had a look for anything that would back up my argument that porn is about fantasy, and does not in fact concern the concept of “woman” or indeed “man”, so much as it does “anatomy of the desired sex”.”
So? The images weren’t created digitally using live humans, but surely the intent is the same (albeit most cartoon porn tends to feature characters from cartoons (seemingly usually kids ones) in sexual situations (seemignly usually rape, incest, or something along those lines).
“However, I am saying that pornography is not by any means synonymous with sexual violence, and that it is possible to enjoy this sort of media without enjoying the subjugation of women.”
Theoretically, maybe, in practice, no. Pornography reflects a wide range of extremely misogynist viewpoints and actions (ok, yes, except that one time when it didn’t). It is also a large part of mainstream culture. As such, it very obviously has a large, negative impact upon the real world.
I am going to be totally honest and say that I really wanted to stay hidden reading but Porserpina’s comment kind of changed my feelings on that.
All right, so I am going to take this comment piece by piece because it is a rather long comment and my is probably going to be an even longer one.
Porserpina says “First off – I do not doubt that some men (and indeed women) do enjoy the subjugation of women, even in a sexual manner. However, in saying that “all men who enjoy porn” also enjoy being violent towards women, you are condemning millions, if not billions, of decent fathers, husbands, grandfathers, uncles and brothers, (most likely some of them your own), and in fact, your analogy falls apart almost at first glance. ”
A lot of women participate in the misogynistic nature of the world around them. It is inevitable as we are taught this from a young age. Women will watch porn for various reasons and will try to fit in and be one of the guys for the privilege they think it will net them. Yes men can be good guys outside of their porn habits, but deep down if they are watching this sort of porn they may well want to be violent towards women and have been just not to the women who know them well. A one time date, someone not in their inner circle. On the other hand it is possible they may never act on their fantasies but it doesn’t change them.
Porserpina then goes on to say “Secondly, I think the nature of watching porn needs to be taken into account. Porn is simply sex, no strings, no fuss, just something to jack off to briefly. Porn is not the sort of movie short wherein you carefully consider the title before watching. Yes, frequently words such as “slut”, “whore” and “cunt” are used, and it is very easy to perceive this as a demeaning insult to women. However, porn isn’t about women – it is just about sex, which is exactly what these titles convey. Porn is a fantasy – not to say that men fantasize about brutalising women, but rather that they are able to briefly suspend their concept of “women” from the sex act. What is being depicted, at that time, is not a “woman” – it is a “slut”, “whore” or “cunt”, that is to say, it is a fictious construct of an object whose purpose is entirely for sex. This is precisely because the majority of men do not want to see “women” being used for sex acts, hardcore or otherwise – rather, they want to see the stimulus (a body) in a ficticious vacuum, aside from the emotional or intellectual considerations which sex with a “woman” innately connotes. Similarly, the men themselves in porn are objectified – most do not show their faces, and in fact are reduced to nothing more than a disconnected groin section, in affect, a floating penis, detached from any real person or “man”. ”
Okay and this personally creeps me out just a touch. Here you are actually illustrating why porn can be so *bleeping* problematic. By breaking a person down to their parts it becomes easier to seem them as not a person but an OBJECT. When a person becomes an OBJECT you feel less guilt if something bad happens. By defining women as a sexual object (and porn is saying that women more than men are the sexual object) you are instilling in men that it is okay to view all WOMEN as sexual objects. Now you might say that most men will be taught this isn’t the case but with our sexual education in the schools almost non-existent and parents too wrapped up in religion to explain this-you would most likely be wrong. Now a days most men are getting their sexual education from porn which is scary in and of itself. So if men are getting their education from porn and the porn they are watching objectifies women into body parts can we be surprised if rape does increase because can you really rape an object? Not to mention if it was only the sexual acts they were interested in then why are their so many categories? Colors of skin? Fake breasts and bleached blonde hair? The fact is they are view the whole woman in the sexual act, not just her parts. As for men, they do often show all of them, but for the ones that don’t it is to enhance the viewer’s feeling of being in the porn by using what they call POV (point of view).
But really, there is a whole woman in porn, and the whole woman is being masturbated too, not just the sexual act.
You go on to point out what you must feel is the fatal flaw in Nine Deuce’s argument-the porn results. You state that to search for an ideal (feminist porn) versus an objective (rape porn) slews the results in fave of the objective. You also state that really these might have to do with people enjoying the weird or the disturbing (kind of horror movie like).
Yet this actually doesn’t break Nine Deuce’s argument as much as you say. Most men do tend to start with the comfortable when they are watching porn-porn that is close to what they already do in the bedroom. PIV and oral with a man and a woman. But as their brains become saturated with these images they find they are not as stimulating as they once were and they begin to use other porn such as threesomes or BDSM inspired porn to get the same emotional high. Eventually even this becomes not enough so they start to look for more extreme porn to get the feeling because they are desensitized to the other more common stuff. So your searches actually tie into the fact as men get used to it they need to take it to that next level. So you are not disproving her point or at least not in the way that you had hoped.
As for brutal gay porn, when I was on the dating scene one of my ex’s mentioned that he was very into that type of thing because it featured a male who was feminized and brought a new level of danger to the proceedings. Now this is anecdotal but I think it prove my point. The reason that gay porn and brutal gay porn is popular may have less to do with it being gay and more to do with men wanting to kick it up the last notch going into the taboo area for them.
For the record, yes I have used porn. I do not use it anymore because I find that I am too torn up by the problems that exist inside of the porn industry and the women who work to be able to blindly and blithely go on my merry porn using way. I also read way too many stories of porn addiction and I get nervous around anything that I feel I MUST have.
And I will also state for the record this is my hardest post because of the fact that I have used porn in the past and it makes me feel weird picking apart Porserpina’s statement. I hope I was somewhat coherent.
Valley
>>>> about the supposed “discrimination” of men in pornography through reducing them to their penises
In the 80s anti-prostitution activists in Sweden found out that prostitutes were often asked to “compliment” the men on their penis size. You know: “Ooooh, your cock is sooo big. I love how it feels inside my pussy!” etc. etc. It was in my opinion rightfully assumed that the reason for this is that men have no sense of themselves as being physically desirable. They are supposed to be ratio, women are supposed to be nature, they are supposed to be loved for their ability to be provider/protector/master, women are supposed to be different service functions. This is usually the way patriarchies work, from what I can make out. A man has probably never learned to present himself as desirable, as sexually exciting to a woman- however, he has learned that his penis is desirable. There is propaganda spanning centuries emphasizing the potency and power of the phallus: uteri were seen as empty flower pots to be filled, from the phallus alone springs forth life.
And not to forget: if you concentrate on the penis, the man attached to it loses his shape and through this also any potential attractiveness. This helps to keep the male viewers of porn from developing jealousy and more importantly icky gay feelings. Gay feelings are assumed to de-masculize a man. Therefore, making a man’s physicality less visible doesn’t exist because it’s a simple “turn-off”- there’s much more to it.
there are maybe a few dozen who call themselves “radical feminist” in this world and who do in fact “condemn” billions of teh menz worldwide for the atrocities they commit against women. they do so IN RESPONSE TO AGGREGATE MALE BEHAVIOR, whereby billions of men across time and place have, in fact, sexually brutalized girls and women. we condemn men as a sexual class BASED ON THE DEMONSTRABLE PROOF THAT THEY DESERVE IT. the fact that this applies to SO MANY MANY MEN is evidence that this is a widespread problem, that its more common than not, that there is something seriously, seriously wrong. yet the fucking fun-fems and other rape apologists erroneously believe (or assert anyway, who knows what they actually manage to BELIEVE) that the FACT that this is so widespread is actually evidence of some kind of misunderstanding, or that radical feminists just take everything *the wrong way*. ie. its a problem with *perspective.* OUR perspective. dont believe your lying eyes etc. just be more “sexually open” and then the problem of rape goes away. yes, isnt that fascinating? it actually DOES go away, once you accept that anything that involves male sexual pleasure is *sex* and sex is good, inconditionally. poof! gone. its easier than actually getting men to stop raping, in fact, so i do credit them with coming up with a very creative “solution” to the problem. its kinda ingenious actually. as long as you drink the delicious kool aid all the way and keep drinking it.
women are dependant on men individually, financially, once they are partnered with them, almost always. and to the extent that women desire marriage and motherhood, women are dependent on “men” as a sexual class, to make their dreams come true. women literally CANNOT AFFORD to see the truth about men, the truth about AGGREGATE MALE BEHAVIOR, the atrocities that men, as a sexual class, or individiual men, commit. but yes, in fact, BILLIONS OF MEN are rapists and abusers of women. let it sink in.
@ Andrew
There IS a conversation happening about piv, at my place. It’s pretty much all I blog about anymore. Click on the piv category in the drop-down menu, and commence reading.
Another amazing deconstruction of porn from you, Aileen Wuornos. Thank you! Thank you also for complimenting me on my handle :)
“Do you not know that the majority of rapes and sexual abuse are perpertrated on girls and womyn by their fathers, husbands, grand fathers, uncles and brothers?”
This resonated with me, having been a victim of sexual abuse as a child myself. My grandfather raped several generations of girls in our family with impunity. I still don’t know how to handle having been a victim of such an extreme crime committed against me before I was even 10. I now perceive the world as irredeemably evil and have never been able to see it differently.
As an adult, I have seen further evidence of said male-induced evil at work, in the form of miserable sexist pigs and wish I could somehow escape it. Maybe if I were to work in a non-profit, there would be a higher ratio of women?
I don’t know how some posters here live with themselves. I’d rather be a cynic than have such blinders on. If you’re a goofy Pollyanna type, this really, really isn’t the board for you… Just because you deny all of these acts so vehemently, does not mean they don’t exist. Get it?
Whoops, I forgot to add that screenname.
Niley4never
Porserpina’s comment was so counter productive to her viewpoint that I was actually considering that a feminist might be making that post just to reveal the skewed mind of the pro-porn woman. I mean…I just can’t even. She thinks she’s making an argument, but she is literally proving everything these feminists are saying to be true. Porn users don’t see the actors as human or even alive, they see them as LITERAL SEX OBJECTS. This is one of the common arguments against pornography, so I don’t even know what she was hoping to achieve by giving us this point. If you don’t see the woman in porn as a person, you can justify ANY brutal act or rape against that woman. DERP DERP DERP.
She confirms several other problems with porn. People who watch porn think porn = sex. Sex = porn. Thus, sex that doesn’t look like porn = bad/boring. Then she goes on to say that porn is just a fantasy..it’s not what people really enjoy. So which is it? Is porn sex or is it something that’s not real? If porn is sex, why would you not want to do the acts you see in porn in real life? Also, how can you fantasize about raping a woman, jack off to it, but not “enjoy” the depicted rape of the woman? That statement about men not actually fantasizing about brutally raping women when they watch a brutal rape fantasy has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard to date. Porsepina, what is your reasoning for that? Are you aware that the statement sounded incredibly redundant? What kind of logic is that?
This was the first and only post to try and argue with 9D’s wonderful post because the truth is staring at you right in the face. The evidence is damning. The only one that that tried to argue with it ended up proving anti-pornography feminists’ points and suspicions. No sex positive feminist could come in here and try to argue with that because she would immediately out herself as a non-feminist.
Everybody who wanted to help with the blog – thank you. I decided that it has to be done, and I created a temporary AIM screen name that you can contact me at. If we can establish that you’re one of these fine ladies and not a troll, I’ll give you some real contact information, so we can brainstorm.
Porserpina’s comment boils down to this:
Porn users can compartmentalise! What they use to fap to says nothing about what they think of women. It’s just that they don’t mind (in fact they seek out) obvious and often fairly brutal rape happening to some woman on camera who could be anybody. Any BODY, get it? If billions of men are doing it, it can’t be wrong.
Damn I love u ladies!!! My pc is down and has been for awhile, my depression has reached epic proportions being a stay at home mom and married to a hopefully former porn addict…(they get real sneaky and upset when you don’t trust them) but the responses from our usual female visitors have made my day…thank god for my cell phone!
Ooh, I love the “compartmentalization” argument. It’s A-OK to segregate some women into a Fuck Objects To Be Used & Abused compartment of the brain because why exactly? Compartmentalization is a learned skill, it’s the product of a society that accords full human status to a percentage of members (men), who then get to choose to what degree any given member of the second, lesser-human class (women) gets to be human.
It cracks me up whenever men proudly proclaim the ability to “compartmentalize”, completely oblivious that they’re announcing their status as a member of the dominant, fully human class that gets to decide whether or not women get to be human, and to what extent. Hey, yeah, good for you, buddy. Just keep on informing the world that you revel in your male superiority. It serves as a warning signal for those of us enlightened enough to know better that Here Thar Be Misogynists.
In fact, I would argue that any person capable of “compartmentalization” is borderline sociopathic and should be avoided at all costs. Compartmentalizing people is how genocide happens, it’s how war is justified, it’s how the rich get away with marginalizing the poor – it’s at the root of every rationalization for one group being more human/deserving than another.
“My apologies that this post is around the same length as the article itself; I just felt this needed saying.”
Yes, it’s a good thing that the porn users has Porserpina to stand up for them! If she hadna stepped in, billions of decent fathers woulda been defenseless against the hordes of radical feminists.
You make a point of mentioning that you yourself were raped, Porserpina; I suppose to make you appear to be someone who should know if porn was inherently evil, right? Here’s a woman who’s been raped and still does not condemn porn. So porn must not be so bad.
Another way of seeing it is that billions of decent fathers all over the world are fapping to the stylised representation of what your rapist(s) did to you – and what innumerable male rapists have done to innumerable women – and you don’t mind, because it’s all purportedly nothing to do with reality.
I suggest that you *want* it to be isolated from reality because the enormity of this humanitarian crisis is too much for you to bear, and I wouldn’t blame you, because I used to be in the exact same position. Wanting to believe that porn is benign, or all in good fun, or even just neutral, however, does not make it so.
When I say that your comment, Porserpina, is the perfect tool of the patriarchy, I hope you will not take it the wrong way. You know, the way we hysterical feminists take words like ‘slut’ and ‘whore’, and **TRIGGER WARNING** ‘Rape these bitches so hard they bleed from torn ass holes and abused pussies.’
Abre los ojos, Porserpina.
I will say this, though, you are welcome in my house any day for a cup of coffee and a talk. Your rapist is not. Nor is any man who faps to representations of rape, compartmentalised or not, adoring father or not. Therefore, you will not see many men around, if you decide to take me up on my offer.
Ad Hominem tangent to follow…
Andrew…dear old Andrew. He comes here, time and time again, states something to the effect of “SEXISM/MISOGYNY = BAD”, then turns around in a heartbeat and says, “ANDREW LUV PORN. ANDREW BIG FAPPER TO GRAPHIC REPRESENTATION OF MISOGYNY.” (Not his words, verbatim, of course. I hope he won’t mind if I exploit his sentiments a wee bit.)
Just imagine for a second, Andrew, walking into a Black Panther meeting and announcing: “RACISM BAD! ANDREW HATE RACISM!” You smile at the congregants, shake a few hands, and then you tell them about your frequent visits to the KKK site and how much you looooooove watching reenactments of lynchings.
Gosh, that makes a ton of sense, doesn’t it?
Big fapper and reenactments of lynchings. Those were mental images I did not need, particularly not in the same sentence. And yet, the comparison is apt.
Amazing Bluecat – I lost my tea out of my nose.
bluecat made me spit on my screen, then depressed me with the lynching reference. it is analogous though. the congnitive dissonance there must be absolutely disabling. seriously.
Bluecat, I never actually thought about compartmentalizing that way. The idea of it had always bothered me, but I was never quite sure how to put it into words. You just made all my arguments with porn lovers a million times better.
Someone asked a LOOONG time ago what they used for visual arousal in women and it varied from study to study, but all used some form of penetrative porn, probably mainstream. They deemed it non-violent heterosexual in most. Some studies branched out including woman on woman, man on man, and even showed some people images of monkeys and the like having sex. What they found was that women were aroused by a wider variety of images than the men. I don’t know if they showed them images of degradation, but I can tell you that many women are aroused by mainstream porn, despite rough anal, cumshots to the face, etc… I’m working on a post now where I examine the effects of regularly watching porn, to a woman.
Bluecat,
I think the question of whether some acts are exploitive, coercive, degrading etc. is a much different question than whether I should be affected by it. I don’t see the tension.
elkballet– excellent; side note on arousal studies–i recall angrily calling in to dr. drew on “love lines” (the tv show, i think– it was so long ago) and protesting his ridiculous pronouncement that women require elaborate stories and emotionally-driven fantasy in order to climax when masturbating. i didn’t get on the air, but the next night, he made an on-air reference to there being exceptions. i took pains in the screening conv. to reference the even-then ancient hite report and the fact that his sweeping generalizations about women’s sexuality would do a butt-load of harm to young women who watched his show especially. but what does it take for men to understand/care that what may work for one woman does not work for all? i know, this is a great spot for a joke, but ffs, this guy was supposed to be a credentialed person–and evidently he was/is not alone in being an oblivious puke…
…which leads me to andrew: YOU SHOULD CARE BECAUSE IT KEEPS YOU FROM BEING A FUCKING SERIAL KILLER, YOU WRETCHED SOCIOPATH
Great point, cub, about our pal Andrew. Why on earth is he posting on a feminist blog in the first place? I’m not saying men shouldn’t contribute here, but I don’t see the purpose of Andrew’s posts, honestly. What does he hope to accomplish if not to rub his ‘superiority’/male privilege in our faces, either consciously or unconsciously?
I recommend reading The Sociopath Nextdoor by Martha Stout, Andrew. It may give you some insight as to why you don’t give a flying fuck about acts that are exploitive, coercive, and degrading to others.
Thank you and you’re welcome Hecate!
Bluecats comment is the best one I’ve read all year.
Andrew,
You sir, are a dickhead.
Porsepina’s comment makes my head hurt. I am so sick of people comparing voyeuristic jerking off to simply watching entertainment. And the implicit assertion that masturbation to human degradation can be PRACTICED and then, like a machine with different modes, loving connected sex just “happens” because it’s an actual human that the guy is porking, well, it’s just insulting to the intelligence.
It sound’s like she’s been reading up on her Michael Bader and it’s a wonder that she didn’t explain, like he does, that men watch porn because their mothers were too busy working to meet their every need and too “emotionally cold” too keep a Dad around the house and there fore they want to act out hateful degrading scenarios – but, ya know, LOVINGLY.
FTR, I checked out a bunch of the women involved in the Feminist Porn awards and I sure as shit did not feel welcome or safe in the environments created by their work.
Candida Royale flat out dismisses any women’s concerns about porn as “hatred” for both women in porn and of SEX itself. Tristan Taormino, who took the award for “Best Gonzo” and who directed a series called “rough sex” – (which I’m sure is consensual and all that. Too bad they are compelled to exploit and distribute, rather than simply enjoying all that slapping and choking and degrading language, but anyway) – advises a couple who wrote to her about their problems with anal sex (man penetrating women, duh). The woman enjoys anal stimulation, but when her husband forces his cock into her ass, it hurts. Taormino’s advice is to keep trying to get her to “open up”. Because apparently it could not be possible that a woman could simply NOT LIKE anal penetration. And ya know, with enough practice she’ll discover that feeling pain is an integral part of getting off.
Feminist? Please.
We form and transform our sexualities though our practices. Out bodies are not fixed machines but as responsive and mutable as out brains. I’m sure with the right “conditioning” , those of us who refuse to admit that this is our essential feminine sexuality, could eventually learn to orgasm to pain and humiliation. This seems to be a central trope of “feminist” porn.
We know where the children are getting it from. I used to belong to a listserv with some of those people. I was banned. Before I went I heard all of that lizor. And guess what? This listserv was funded by a women’s studies department in a north eastern university. Run on the university’s server. Paid for with the stipend of one of the pomo professors. A woman. (Ostensibly.) The list, still going on as far as i know, was chock-a-block with male “sex therapists” with their own websites titled such as “Dr. Sex”.
Just seeing the words Tristan Taormino makes me want to vomit. I wanted to give the Feminist Porn Awards a chance, but seeing that they worship Taormino was all I needed to know that they were indeed, full of shit. She is the shittiest of the shits. I know we’re not supposed to blame patriarchy tools for harming other women, but she actively encourages coercion and rape of women. I can’t with her. I really can’t. I though she was one of those women that believed anal could be a ~sensual~ experience for women, and porn just fives it a bad name. That was from seeing the cover, title, and several reviews of her book. Actually going to her website and hearing her talk reveals that she’s the opposite. It’s AMAZING that she gets away with the shit she does. I want some statistics on how many of the purchases of her book “for women”, were by men. I’m going to be generous and say almost half. It’s probably more though.
About “compartmentalizing”: it has long been men’s excuse to uphold the virgin/whore dichotomy.
“Oh, honey, don’t you worry! I can COMPARTMENTALIZE, so when I watch porn, obviously, THOSE women are nothing like YOU, or our daughter, or our mothers. THOSE women probably choose to do that anyway, it’s what THOSE women do! You are far too CLASSY to be in porn, and I like my wife CLASSY because I don’t want people judging me for having a whore as a wife. But do you think we could try some new stuff in the bedroom, sweetie? Don’t fret, you’ll still be classy, but I just feel that we could use some spicing up. You don’t want to do these things? Oh, honey you are just INSECURE and JEALOUS, but you don’t need to be. Just be a little more OPENMINDED. After all, this is what good, healthy sexuality is! Your INSECURITY makes you prudish, but we’ll fix that. So…now you do all that kinky stuff. I’m concerned because I don’t think you’re as CLASSY as you used to be, honey! You know, maybe you never really were all that classy. Maybe no woman is. Except my mother.”
Pretty good one, J.
Second at the rage at Candidia Royale (who has been called a pimp before, because that’s what she is IMHO) and Taoramo or whatever the fuck her name is who’s favourite film subject is grooming womyn into activities that they are not comfortable with. Same shit with Violet Blue.
On the same site as the Feminist Porn Awards, they sell movies by Belladonna, who was raped on camera the first time she was involved in porn and has tried to leave the industry many times. One of Belladonna’s films is called “Dark Meat” which invokes racist, white supremacist stereotypes of Black men and features images of womyn being gagged on penises and having their faces pulled on, often from the mouth – none of these “actresses” even remotely look like they are enjoying it. By the way, Belladonna is a choosey choose my choice pornographic ‘actress’. Also observe the following description from Belladonna (Remember, this woman is featured on the feminist porn awards website, even though she is not awarded, they still sell her products, this shit exists on a continuum yo)
All this crap about the story they did on her to portray her in a “negative” light is a load of dogs bollocks too. If you’re in a bad place, you’re in a bad place.
A turd – it can not be polished.
I found female friendly porn
from the show 30 rock
BAM!
Yeah, that’s totally the same thing as porn. Women wishing men would behave like human beings = men treating women like toilet paper.
Kanye West shows how it’s done: Kanye West and his sexy, dead bitches in his new “Monster” music video: http://fb.me/JF0yLpzw **TRIGGER WARNING**
Quote from About Face describing video (I don’t have the stomach to watch it):
“video opens by slowly panning down a dead, hanged body of a woman decked in lingerie and heels while Bon Iver warbles on in the background.
“SEXY, YEAH?
“It pans down and there’s Rick Ross sitting in a chair, smoking a cigar menacingly, surrounded by these hanging corpses.
“EVEN SEXIER, RIGHT?
“It goes on to show Kanye sitting in a bed with two young women who are either dead or extremely drugged. Neither is moving but one appears to be breathing, and Kanye picks up their arms and hands and makes them touch themselves and each other.
“Let’s just be absolutely clear about what’s going on here: Kanye West is sexually assaulting two drugged women, or sexually violating two corpses.”
(there’s more, it gets worse if you can believe that)
Very original Kanye! Violent porn becomes mainstream pop video, I’m not psychic but I forsee people not giving shit or defend this as art. No irony in women being hung in a video by an African-American music artist. Someone mention lynch porn or something earlier, well here it is!
“Yeah, that’s totally the same thing as porn. Women wishing men would behave like human beings = men treating women like toilet paper.”
Argh…the whole “girl porn” thing. Because if people make movies that women want to watch, it negates anything made for a male audience, no matter how fucked up.
More annoyingly, one common example of this magical counterweight of “girl porn” is Twilight. Admittedly, it was aimed at a female audience, and is about male dominance and possession of women, so there is some logic behind the label of “girl porn”, but I think an important step has been missed somewhere in the thought process.
Nine Deuce, have you seen this?
Kink.com First To Stream Deflowering of Young Virgin Live (NSFW)
The industry needs to deliver.
I do not even want to think about this, it literally made me sick to my stomach and that hasn’t happened in a really long time.
For fuck’s sake. Did you see the quote from Acworth? I may have to ditch my plans and write about this.
“Kink.com First To Stream Deflowering of Young Virgin Live (NSFW)”
Yeah – and everything they do is respectful and consensual, hunh???????
Some days I just hate this world.
When I tried to search for feminist porn – theonly site I saw was Abby Winters (I think that was the name) and it looked like the same tired cliche – all the women were white, all making the dumb cliche “come fuck me face” found in playboy magazines. It’s a joke. I’ve seen some asshole recomment Adam and Eve videos as being “woman friendly” porn – yet I’ve seen those pornos, ALL the women have big fake boobs, are being fucked in ways that don’t stimulate woman, scenes of throat fucking, and seriously – this is how fucking brainwashed people are – they see these images and they can’t even see the fucking difference between how women and men are treated. Don’t even see it. They got their “O” blinders on. It’s really sickening. And yeah – no feminist porn exists. I have not seen ONE porn that treated women with ANY sort of equality – not ONE.
“I do not even want to think about this, it literally made me sick to my stomach and that hasn’t happened in a really long time.”
I’d assumed that was hyperbole, and that the porn industry had nothing left to shock me with. I was wrong.
I have — only sort of jokingly — been asking people lately when they think we’ll see porn in which women’s nostrils are penetrated. I guess this had to happen first.
rebecca mott details in her archives that prostituted women ARE fucked in literally every orifice, and that includes eyes, ears and nose. as she says, all whores are fucked in every hole; no hole is off limits if you are a member of the whore class. i didnt exactly fall out of my chair at the news, but at the same time, i do still occasionally hear things that i had never considered before, and that was one of them.
Jesus Christ I hate men.
Fortunately, there IS a form of sexual intercourse where women aren’t treated like fucktoys.
It’s called necrophilia.
Dead men are the only ones that don’t hate women.
Hardy har har.
Re: nostrils, etc – I hesitate to tell this as it is so horrific, but its true so why should I cover this man’s brutality? I know a woman from my city who was beaten so badly by her husband that she had a colostomy and the colostomy, being a new orifice…
She charged him and he got a slap on the wrist, it being HIS wife and all.
Yes, I truly fucking hate men.
Oh, yes, I read that quote. Pornographers are pure-bred capitalists- that’s what you get when you let an industry run wild under the guise of free speech. No producer or director who doesn’t have an ideology to sell will talk differently about the prostitutes he’s exploiting. Because the customers just don’t care- wait, they do care but only about their gratification and Acworth knows.
We should also remember the names of the guys who are participating, especially James Deen. He’s popular with the ladies as it seems. Turns out he’s just another asshole.
“Fortunately, there IS a form of sexual intercourse where women aren’t treated like fucktoys.
It’s called necrophilia.
Dead men are the only ones that don’t hate women.”
Ok, I laughed at that.
That statement is so disgustingly heterosexist and misogynist I don’t even know where to begin. I can’t even pretend to laugh at that.
That’s just brought kink.com to a whole new low, I can not believe I used to be self-loathing enough to support that kind of shit.
BTW I have seen images of women with dick in their nostril. And women being fucked in their bleeding guts and in their skull.
They were drawings. When men can’t come up with ways to degenerate women enough with real videos, they turn to “art”.
Google “guro porn” if you really want to see how far this hatred goes. You probably don’t.
Don’t mean to change the topic here, but I wanted to share a favorite composer of mine with you lovely ladies. Yes, many males are consumed by hatred. I believe there are a very select few who transcend their gender, and societal conformist bullshit. Arvo Part is definitely one of them in my humble opinion.
“Google “guro porn” if you really want to see how far this hatred goes. You probably don’t.”
You really, really, really don’t. Although, that sort of thing often comes up alongside mainstream porn, and inevitably with BDSM, you are likely to have it pop up sooner or later regardless of going looking for it.
Re: The violently misogynist Kanye West video – here is a petition to not have it released:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/prevent-official-release-of-kanye-wests-women-hating-monster-video/
Please sign it folks. There must be a limit to the woman hating allowed in media.
Why do men hate wimmin? Seriously, I want to know why.
Inquiring minds want to know what’s antifeminist about millions of films calling millions of women cumguzzling fleabitten hoebags who beg to be fucked raw til they bleed.
http://feministing.com/2011/01/12/what-makes-feminist-porn-feminist/
Thanks for that link, j. I signed it, asking if he’d want to see the same things done to his dead mother. Sadly, he probably wouldn’t care. I think videos like this are proof that the backlash against womyn is getting worse, not better. We’d do well to watch our backs. It seems like the womyn of this blog are very savvy and know enough to protect their interests. But I’m worried about womyn who refuse to pay heed to these deeply disturbing messages. They may be avoiding them out of fear, but bullies must be confronted, or there will only be an escalation of this foul behavior.
“Sadly, he probably wouldn’t care.”
I doubt that. Being shocking instead of utilising any sort of talent has been very successful in the past, and attempts to stop this sort of thing, or even to express disgust only serve to give it the publicity he wants. If nothing else, everyone will want to see the video to find out why they should oppose letting people see it.
I certainly see your point isme. It’s a sad commentary on the music industry, and the entertainment industry in general when shock value replaces talent. Maybe Kanye is trying to shock us into forgetting his mean-spirited antics with Taylor Swift?
At any rate, the idea of his new video still repulses me.
Unreal. Kanye’s video is being called “a defense of blackness”.
http://bit.ly/gnmrjK
“The first image that caught my attention was one of the first shots in the video–hanging bodies of white women. Historically speaking, the image reminded me immediately of the lynchings of black men in the South. Often black men were beaten, castrated and/or lynched for doing anything with a white woman: having sex with her, making a pass at her, flirting with her, maybe even staring at her. All one needs to do is look up the story of Emmett Till to know what I am talking about.
“So, when I saw that image, two thoughts came to mind: To have that image in 2010 shows how far we come and how much of a risk-taker Kanye is, but also what it could subconsciously mean racially. Black men have been labeled as hyper-sexual and lusting after white women, even willing to rape and kidnap them, and as a result many were lynched for it. Sometimes in those lynching incidents, the white woman did have consensual contact with the black man but once she was caught, she would cry “rape” (think of the Scottsboro Boys).”
If you want to make a ‘statement’ Kanye, why not go after white male supremacism? Targeting a vilified and oppressed group doesn’t heal or defend another vilified and oppressed group.
Such a risk-taker, that Kanye.
I like this quote, but probably not for reasons the author had in mind:
“”Monster” is just reflecting what is going on in our culture as whole. Violence, whether racial, gender or any other social issue, has been part of fabric of American culture. As American as apple pie.”
Ah yes, I was wondering how long it would take before the first twat explicated how the lynchings of black men was all white women’s fault.
Never mind that the lynchings were quite predominantly perpetrated by white men, or that a black man sleeping with a white woman was such a taboo because white women were the property of white men!
Rather than being a risk-taker, you are a cowardly turncoat, Kanye.
Very true Fede! Also, it’s fairly common for most people to deem sexism ‘less offensive’ than racism, which is cowardly and short-sighted in itself. No one wants to see the elephant in the room when it comes to sexism. I have been seeing some encouraging women writers come forward, saying it like it is, as in this article:
http://www.alternet.org/world/149527/why_men_push_war%2C_and_how_women_leaders_can_lead_us_to_peace/
There are suprisingly few comments on it, perhaps because people are finally acknowledging that the author is spot-on.
I really love how you cut through the bullshit and make things perfectly clear and inescapable. Truth is great…even when it sucks at the same time? Hmm. Yeah I just find myself wondering what knowing the truth about porn/men/society in general is going to accomplish. I’m new to this radical feminist thing. Are we trying to change the world? Or just raise awareness…by changing our OWN behavior, and the things we will or won’t tolerate? I guess I’m clueless.
I’m more of a closet feminist I guess…because if I said what I thought EVERY time an issue came up, I would be fighting constantly, and I’m not a confrontational person. I also lack the tools necessary for debate, as I’ m a total newbie (was a fundie xian, then played role of porn-loving “one of the boys” chick) So…if anyone would be so kind as to steer me in the right direction?
I mean what the hell can I DO about porn, besides get majorly pissed and offended, and not watch it myself? Do I have to alienate all my guy friends by becoming “bitchy” and “prudish” whenever they are joking around? Yes, they joke about all things porn related and juvenile. I brush it off and don’t take it personally. They ARE creepy perverts…but what role am I supposed to play here? It’s not in my nature to speak out, unless I’ve had a few drinks in me…so I just sit there, even laughing along…at the degradation and oppression of women. Fun.
This is why I question if I can even BE a radical feminist. If I even have it IN me.
Sorry if this post was too self-obsessed. I’m a lurker, I always get pumped to read your blog, but at the same time I’m left feeling so goddamn helpless.
Hi littledozzie, I can totally relate to your post. A lot of times I wish I could UN-know the things I know now. I actually took a break from all things feminist for a few years, it just got to be too overwhelming for me. I’ve learned to pick my battles because like you said, if you always have to point out sexism/misogyny you’d be constantly fighting, because it’s everywhere. I’m a pretty shy and chill person, so it’s uncomfortable for me to be confrontational too.
I think you can change the world by raising awareness, they aren’t two separate things. Actions and behavior are the result belief systems. Getting people to examine their beliefs and assumptions about gender is a big way to change things. Actually I think it’s the only way to change things. The porn question is difficult because people will accuse you of being a prude or anti-free speech if you question the violence and hate that magically becomes invisible when it’s labeled “sex”. It’s really stupid.
I do feel helpless a lot of the time but reading this blog and experiencing the sense of sisterhood here has really given me more confidence in dealing with situations that call for speaking out.
Littledozzie… I feel your plight, i’ve been there… Think of it this way…would u want to hang out with possible rapists? I know I wouldn’t.. Start small, when they say something offensive, say that’s disrespectful and i’ve kept quiet in the past, but not anymore…and walk away before u blow ur top and lose an argument out of anger… The guys who really enjoy ur company won’t give u a hard time and might be interested in how they hurt u and want to resolve it… There is no real guideline on how to be a feminist, arm yourself with knowledge and stay true to yourself, but don’t let that behavior slide…if it’s offensive call them on it, and if you can’t do that walk away until you can be outspoken… I regret all the years I stayed silent and find it invigorating and liberating to call out sexist attitudes…start on the internet to argue, but look up logical fallacies to really be equipped in the art of arguing with “men”…they use them as much as they do porn…supposedly its a sign of intelligence… I personally think its common sense..but whatever… The change starts with awareness and you wont bring about change staying silent or joining in… I’ve had several arguments with men in my family and my husband about sexist issues, and its appalling at how they just don’t care…i’ve had to walk away to avoid screaming or even crying (if a subject was triggering..one of those subjects for me is porn).. Once u get used to arguing online u won’t want to stay silent in your life…i’d say this blog is the best place to start in an argument…the users here are supportive and polite if you don’t understand something…well most of them…some are a little highly charged for me, but the internet isnt good for conveying the tone of a conversation either..lol
I relate too Littledozzie, and I guess getting comfortable with feminism is, in many ways, getting comfortable with yourself. And asking yourself why you worry about displeasing guys who are insulting you regularly with their porn use and jokes about it, who assert on a regular basis their unearned privilege at your expense; guys who you yourself say “ARE creepy perverts”.
The very best way to find out which actually are creepy perverts and which are your friends is to speak your mind without apology. You may be surprised that some guys will actually agree with you. The others are vampires that you are much better off without.
All my best to you. You are not alone.
There’s a ridiculous article by Tracy Clark Flory over on Salon about “The Modesty of the Porn Generation” that posits that women don’t look at porn, don’t know much about porn, but fully expect their partners to use it. One even said she would be wary of a guy who didn’t.
The only thing more depressing than the article are the comments.
I think the question of whether some acts are exploitive, coercive, degrading etc. is a much different question than whether I should be affected by it. I don’t see the tension.
Ah, but, Andrew, admitting that porn is degrading to women – which you have unequivocally done, though not in this thread AFAIK – and continuing to use it creates quite the ethical dilemma, does it not? You can’t kick puppies and call yourself an animal lover. You can’t eat meat and call yourself a vegetarian. And you can’t use porn and call yourself a feminist ally, or make the heady assumption that you’re not a sexist, which I thought you were trying hard to be – not a sexist. I’d gotten the impression from recent posts that you were attempting to turn over a new leaf. I guess I was wrong.
And you’re questioning whether or not you’re affecting by porn? The negative, mind-altering effects of pornography are well-documented and *you* are not a special snowflake with a preternatural immunity to it. What you are is an addict. It takes one to know one. I remember all too well the convoluted, logically bankrupt justifications I would invent in order to continue using porn well after I’d acknowledged its detrimental impact on my life and society in general.
Goodness knows there are myriad support groups for men trying to quit porn. You’ve at least got that.
Oops. …affected by porn…
Why do men hate wimmin? Seriously, I want to know why.
I’m sorry, M, that no one picked up the gauntlet on this one. I think it got lost in the midst of an on-going dialogue up-thread. While there are others here who could offer a more eloquent, incisive answer, I can’t resist offering my perspective. I hope it helps somewhat.
Misogyny is culturally hereditary. Boys and girls are socially groomed to believe very different things about their sex and the world around them. From an early age we teach boys to suppress their emotions, that hyper-competitiveness and social hierarchy are everything, and that self-confidence and mental fortitude are absolutely necessary if you want to get ahead in life, even if you have to fake it (you can see how the seeds of sociopathy and narcissism are planted in childhood, fruiting to varying degrees through the cultivation of masculinity).
So what happens when a kid grows up partially cut off from his feelings, bonding with his peers through domination play and aggression saturated pastimes (i.e., a steady diet of violent video games and sporting events), learns that the male sex essentially rules the world, is catered to by the entertainment industry, has the power to change the geopolitical landscape in the bat of an eye, and is barraged through popular culture/media with the ceaseless message that there is a plethora of gorgeous women in the world – the apex of female achievement – sexually available 24/7 to men, that men are the natural consumers of women – mysterious and dangerous creatures that ensnare men with their sexual wiles – and that this is the Natural Order of Things? And then they grow up and find out that some of these women aren’t content to sit back and allow men to continue ruling the world and hogging the pie, so to speak, they want the same level of respect given to male peers (which is impossible, of course, because men and women are just too different), and, to add insult to injury, they have a problem with male consumption of women as sex objects? The nasty bitches, amirite?
Oh yeah. Let’s not forget the ubiquity of anti-woman, anti-feminist propaganda…it’s a beam of life-affirming sunshine direct from heaven for angry men clinging to their male privilege like it’s the very essence of their soul, without which they would be nothing. Seriously, I get the impression that porn isn’t the only highly addictive substance many men indulge in; male privilege is pretty addictive, too. Wouldn’t you want to annihilate the people trying to take away your drug of choice?
I forgot to add that we aren’t that far removed from a time in history when women had severely limited life choices – their best shot at financial stability was to attach themselves to a man (and for many it still is) – and were widely considered the mentally/physically inferior sex. Men from a different age remember and pine for those times, the younger generations wonder if we’re moving in the wrong direction – some of them adamantly believe we are and won’t be satisfied until the Natural Order is fully restored (hence the advent of MRA groups). When domination/subjugation is the preeminent cultural paradigm, as it is in patriarchal society, the dominant group is always going to try to keep the subjugated group down. The more power gained by the subjugated group, the greater the backlash (e.g., modern porn).
@Andrew: Consuming – and presumably being turned on by – the depiction of acts that are “exploitive, coercive, degrading etc.” is in and of itself proof positive that you have already been quite heavily affected by porn and by its underlying ideology. I’m amazed you don’t see that. If you were not already damaged, where would the incentive be for you to watch something that you yourself would describe in those terms?
Fede,
I think you are mostly correct, and being a consumer of porn is not necessarily a badge I wear proudly. To be honest, I would prefer I wasn’t. Conversely though, I am not sure that if I wasn’t I wouldn’t exploit women in some other fashion and so still be somewhat culpable.
The reason I made it a point here is because I believe one can admit his consumption of porn (as 9-2 asked such men to, as a starting point) and still discuss these topics seriously.
It is not as if I come here just to point out that I don’t care about the thoughts, feelings, and ideas expressed here. There is a lot I agree with and share perspective on, there are also some conclusions I take issue with that don’t necessarily add up to me.
In short, I enjoy the topics discussed here and try my best not to personally offend any of the commenters here when I share my opinion. If I did with my earlier statement I am sorry.
“being a consumer of porn is not necessarily a badge I wear proudly. To be honest, I would prefer I wasn’t.”
OK, that gives us somewhere to start from, I suppose.
“Conversely though, I am not sure that if I wasn’t I wouldn’t exploit women in some other fashion and so still be somewhat culpable.”
I disagree with your use of the word ‘conversely,’ here. Because unless you are saying that your addiction to consuming women is such that you would ‘have to’ start raping prostituted women for cash if you gave up porn, I really don’t see how overcoming the porn addiction can be anything but a great big positive plus. You are correct, of course, that there might still be issues of exploitation in your relationship with women, but getting rid of a major one can only be good.
“I [...] try my best not to personally offend any of the commenters here when I share my opinion. If I did with my earlier statement I am sorry.”
I think there’s a very important distinction to be made here: when you identify as a porn consumer, you do not offend me personally. I am not in the videos or whatever it is you consume, nor is any woman I know personally, to the best of my knowledge. What is more, I get the distinct feeling that you are able to compartmentalise in such a fashion that you can communicate with me without simultaneously imagining me in terms of pornography. Being a consumer of porn you are, however, offending my ethical principles; i.e. my firm belief that enjoying another person’s degradation is despicable, no matter what the excuse. And insofar as I can identify with women everywhere who end up being degraded because they are women, I am obviously offended by proxy, if you will, that you would not make more of an effort to live a life as low on women’s degradation as humanly possible. So you see how you can offend me even though you are careful not to offend me personally.
Andrew, while I have numerous problems with the traditional 12 step program of recovery, the one thing it gets absolutely right is that recovery is 100% possible through support, willpower, patience and behavior modification. It takes 90 days of uninterrupted abstinence from your drug of choice to affect an initial rewiring of your brain; once you’re over that hurdle, it gets increasingly easier to refrain from using. That 90 days won’t happen initially because relapse is inevitable, but every time you relapse and jump back on the wagon, it gets easier to stay on the wagon.
Because porn addiction isn’t a chemical addiction like alcoholism or heroin addiction, it responds exceptionally well to behavior modification. There is simply no excuse for not quitting and what is offensive here – rage-inducingly offensive – is that you are choosing to continue using porn. You say you would “prefer” not to use it. Well, guess what. You aren’t getting any sympathy from this recovered addict because I know from personal experience that you’re bullshitting us. You’re bullshitting yourself. No one said recovery was easy. Being a decent human being isn’t easy. Do you think every person posting to this blog hasn’t made sacrifices, do you think they don’t experience hardship on a on-going basis because of their decision to pursue a radical feminist lifestyle?
What is offensive is your cowardice. What is offensive is your apathy. What is offensive is your weak, morally inferior character and lack of desire to do anything about it. I torment you because I think you have the potential to be a decent human being. It’s a shame you don’t have the courage to try.
@ Fede & Bluecat,
I am not sure what to write here in response other than to say that the reasons I’d like to quit using pornography have a lot to do with the way it affects me personally and not the way it affects the women in it; or even women generally.
My sexual psyche has been warped by pornography to a great extent, I’m sure, but that has little to do with the discussion of what about porn, sex, or the differences between the two gives rise to female subjugation and degradation.
On the morality issue:
Morality is subjective and different moralities can’t really be “inferior” to one another. I would first have to accept one’s moral premises before I could be shown to be morally inferior to them, and I haven’t done that.
I don’t doubt that the fact I choose to use porn enrages you and others here, but that fact is really neither here nor there. I commented on this thread because I am interested in what about certain sexual acts or the contexts they occur in makes them harmful. The moral ramifications of my realizing that harm aren’t really relevant.
“that the reasons I’d like to quit using pornography have a lot to do with the way it affects me personally and not the way it affects the women in it; or even women generally.”
Andrew why do you want to quit if you don’t care about harm done to the victims of porn? What exactly is the problem, then? It takes up too much of your time? It’s expensive? I’m not kidding when I say Andrew sounds like a textbook sociopath. Not all sociopaths are violent, that’s why it may sound extreme for me to use the term, but it fits.
“Morality is subjective and different moralities can’t really be “inferior” to one another. I would first have to accept one’s moral premises before I could be shown to be morally inferior to them, and I haven’t done that.”
Moral nihilism is a classic characteristic of sociopathy. And he seems to be upset that someone said they don’t get personally offended by his porn use, insisting that it really does ‘enrage’ people here. It’s sounds like that’s exactly what he’s after. But before that he makes some bizzare apology.
Why does Andrew get a free pass on all his gloating narcissitic/sociopathic BS? Is it for the entertainment value?
Just wondering.
Is he perhaps an elaborate puppet-troll?
Gracemargaret,
I didn’t really want to respond to their comments as its somewhat awkward, but they asked me and so I answered. I also don’t really understand your assertion that people not being offended by my porn use makes me upset. If anything I feel like I understand their anger quite well. In any event, unless 9-2 wants to write a post about my porn use and general world outlook, I won’t be discussing it anymore.
I do like your efforts to paints me as a sociopath though. I almost want to go out and torture a small animal just to see if I’d be good at it. Instead, I’ll probably just settle for making myself a sandwich. Interestingly enough, since severe emotional/physical harm is a large part of both torturing animals and using them for meat products, my “moral nihilism” blinds me to the difference.
I agree Gracemargaret. I get the feeling Andrew is possibly beating off at his own incoherent posts and to the fact that he is still being indulged here. I don’t see any hope in what he has to say and I find his words make me feel sick to my core – probably because he reminds me of other pompous narcissists I have had the misfortune to be exposed to. You are probably right about his being a sociopath -reading the hollow dissonance of his mockery of reason is like looking at porn. It’s poisonous.
If men’s psyches weren’t warped, there would be no subjugation of women, Andrew. You never cease to amaze me with with your complete lack of capacity for logical reasoning. I can only speculate that you have some fantastical idea that as long as your propensity for women’s suffering is all in your mind, those women getting raped in front of a camera are not getting hurt. You do realise that by creating a market for taped rape you are making sure that a new generation of young women will also be raped on film, do you not? Or do you just not grasp the fact that your choices as a consumer have consequences in the real world?
I agree with your assessment, gracemargaret. I actually laughed out loud at Andrew’s contention that there’s no such thing as someone being morally inferior to someone else. You just keep telling yourself that, Andrew! Oh, mama. The loops of abstactatiolicious contortionism these guys will jump through. Anything not to have to examine their own actions in the light of actual humanist values.
So basically Deuce, you’ve proven the relative unpopularity of porn with specific themes of rape/violation.
See the image I’m using as a gravatar? The glasses? Those are actually the frames I wear. If I run a search for them, wanna know how many results I get?
1, 860, 000. Hilariously.
Everything on the first page is actually specs, too.
@Bluecat
Along with many mentions of porn “rewiring” your brain, I noted you said this to Andrew:
The negative, mind-altering effects of pornography are well-documented and *you* are not a special snowflake with a preternatural immunity to it.
Studies say that watching porn “rewires” your brain, eh? I’d sure like to know what studies those were. Because to the best of my knowledge, scientists are currently unable to demonstrate that ANY visual media has ANY effect on our brains that last more than a few hours at best. Am I behind on the latest research? Do tell.
I first starting watching porn videos some years back. I couldn’t find what I was looking for in the geeky fanfiction my geeky friends and I had been writing for each other since I was in high school, so I (with trepidation – there were a lot of things I thought I “knew” about porn that made me very nervous and almost too self-conscious to even load a porn site) started watching porn videos people were linking on a kink-themed website I sometimes visit.
Once I got over my initial nerves, I found [video] porn to be quite novel (in comparison to the erotic fiction I was used to) and therefore quite exciting. I probably watched it most days out of the week for months, for many hours at a time. And I escalated too.
I got increasingly bored with it.
I am very glad I’ve seen some of the porn I have. Some of it was very affirmative and joyful to watch. Some of it made me understand things about my sexuality that nothing else ever had. Some of it made me like things I hadn’t found hot before. (Oh no, escalation!) Some of it taught me things about myself which disturbed me – but I’m glad to know them. Some of it made me more understanding and less judgmental about other people’s sexual turn-ons that I hadn’t been gracious about before. Some of it amazed me with the breadth and depth of human sexual imagination. Some of it gave me a bit of an idea what kind of potential even porn videos (which have narrative restrictions that written stories do not) have to be great commentaries on how and why sex is important to people (and be hot, too). All of those things are reasons why I’m fundamentally pro-porn, even if I despise a lot of the porn I’ve seen.
Because, you know, the overwhelming majority of what I’ve seen is dreck. That’s one point I won’t disagree with. (Being “pro-porn” doesn’t mean that I think all porn is totally awesome; it means that I think porn has positives and isn’t inherently evil.) But much of it is tiring, angering and boring. It got to the point where I realized that if I spent a few hours on a free-streaming porn site, I felt more like I’d signed up for a few hours of getting punched in the face. Particularly within the niche fetish I’d originally set out looking for, it seemed that I’d already found – and saved, and re-watched – every single damn video that was any good.
I guess your argument here might be that I’d exhausted the initial “high” of porn videos and needed “more” to get the same high; but the idea of getting punched in the face harder or more often never had any appeal, so I’m not sure how that’s supposed to work.
So at that point I largely gave up on porn videos, and went back to geeky Whoporn. (Better written than the stuff in that first linked video, mind you.) Nearly every video I’d saved I’ve since deleted (since I realized I wasn’t re-watching it anymore, and it was taking up space).
But I think I watched MORE than enough porn to have passed whatever tipping point ex-porn addicts are always ominously warning about (as though porn addiction is a completely inevitable side effect of watching porn, particularly “too much” porn) and yet am unequivocally not addicted to watching it.
So pardon me if I’m skeptical of this “rewiring” business. Again, if you have those studies, please link ‘em.
Bean still thinks porn is creative and good for the soul. How surprising
Gag me with a spoon. The more and more I read this shit, the less I want to be carried out of here alive.
Or at least, the less and less I ever want to touch a living man again. Which is a good thing, actually, if this is the best we can get out of it.
So Andrew, you can totally get the harm done to animals is actual harm but not to women in the creation of violent porn? And openly say that you don’t care? It’s not unusual for misogyinists to treat animals better than women, if even half the stuff done to women in porn was done to animals, there would be a massive public outcry.
But women in porn and prostitution are so vile and filthy it doesn’t matter, they just deserve whatever happens to them, at least that’s what dudes tell me. They even laugh if you suggest porn actresses and prostitutes are human beings. Try it. I have.
They LAUGH.
I remember seeing a photo once of a wholesome family at a picnic with a mom and dad and adorable son and daughter with a cute blonde curls in her Sunday best sitting and smiling next to a tree where a black man was hanging, his tongue protruding from his mouth from the noose around his neck, clearly dead. Some at the picnic were posing by the tree the way people do when they catch a really big fish and want to show off. They were probably nice to their dog, too.
Like I said, you don’t have to be a violent nutcase or someone who abuses animals to be a sociopath. Just someone who’s completely indifferent to the suffering and pain of others and sees them as mere objects for your use.
@ bean
“Studies say that watching porn “rewires” your brain, eh? I’d sure like to know what studies those were. Because to the best of my knowledge, scientists are currently unable to demonstrate that ANY visual media has ANY effect on our brains that last more than a few hours at best. Am I behind on the latest research? Do tell.”
The Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doidge, MD has an entire chapter on pornography and brain structure.
Now could you please tell me where you saw the porn that made you write “Some of it amazed me with the breadth and depth of human sexual imagination.”
I have been looking and can’t find a damn thing that is not anti-inimacy, anti-creative and completely lacking in imagination. Those things I find when I sexually interact with humans, but never with porn. Please advise.
Seriously, how many times are porn fanatics going to spout this tired “no studies” “biased studies” crap? My area of expertise on this is in scientific studies and I can assure you there are THOUSANDS of well-conducted studies showing a correlation/causation between porn use and aggression, sexual dissatisfaction, emotional dissatisfaction, increased likelihood to engage in risky sexual behavior, higher likelihood to believe rape myths (like that all women secretly want to be raped), higher likelihood of seeing women as object or things, decrease in the desire to remain committed, decrease in the desire to have children especially if they are female, lower empathy for women, lower empathy for rape victims, lower likelihood of wanting to support “women’s programs” like cancer research women’s shelters and medical care, lower likelihood of believing a woman when she says she was raped, etc… or should I go on? Before you come in here spouting crap about there being no studies why not try actually looking.
I have yet to see a real study (well-conducted) that shows anything actually positive from porn use (the only ones were poorly done correlations between child porn use and lower child rape, but they have all been dismissed across the board for failing to show causation or take other factors into account). I have seen several that report neutral effect, but most of those rely on self-reporting (questions like, do you think porn has a negative effect on you? A negative effect on others? etc…).
Furthermore when dealing with a social science that deals so heavily with mental well-being anecdotal cannot be dismissed and should be included as valid evidence. There are immense numbers of women who are being harmed by porn, frequently by a partner who watches degrading porn and lies about it. Many women report being pressured into painful and degrading sex acts by porn-watching partners. Ejaculating on a woman’s face without asking, anal sex the first time, and bondage are all becoming regular acts that have been shown to be popular as a result of porn use. Interviews with men show this quite clearly, they’re not too shy about admitting that’s why they want it. Magazines nowadays share coping mechanisms for women, just like back in the 60′s, for how to have things hurt less, how to tolerate accommodating every sexual desire the porn-viewer wants, threatening that if she doesn’t she WILL be cheated on or dumped. How is that not a direct admission of male entitlement?
In fact the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers found that in 2004 over half of all divorces the internet (i.e. porn) was one of the major contributions for the divorce. What is happening there? Women are being told that simply on the basis of the fact that they are women, they have to put up with being hurt over and over. This is a result of sexism and male entitlement.
Don’t even bother responding to my message until you look up studies by:
Donnerstein, Zillman, Bryant, Violato, Malamuth, and (Peter Jochen and Patti M Valkenburg) for a start.
Thank you, elkballet, that was to the point and hugely informative.
The porn-sick dude is not convinced that watching a slut getting used and abused in all holes is necessarily bad for him. No surprises there. Also not surprising is his insolent assumption that his well-being is the issue here. Twat.
Damn, my linkage didn’t work. Can you fix it, ND?
elkballet, your comment rocks.
This is so true:
Magazines nowadays share coping mechanisms for women, just like back in the 60′s, for how to have things hurt less, how to tolerate accommodating every sexual desire the porn-viewer wants, threatening that if she doesn’t she WILL be cheated on or dumped. How is that not a direct admission of male entitlement?
Patriarchal oppression has shifted to the personal level like never before. It’s no coincidence that nowadays many women’s major troubles center around making work and childrearing compatible. And that we see a new emphasis on women’ sexual servitude. Sexuality is a social relation like any other and has long ago become an institution to enforce the social structure.
For better reference:
Peter, Jochen. and Valkenburg, Patti. Adolescents’ Exposure to Online Sexually Explicit Material and Recreational Attitudes Towards Sex
E. Oddone-Paolucci, M. Genius, C. Violato: A meta-analysis of the published research on the effects of pornography
Repeated Exposure to Violent and Nonviolent Pornography: Likelihood of Raping Ratings and Laboratory Aggression Against Women
Pornography and Attitudes Supporting Violence Against Women: Revisiting the Relationship in Nonexperimental Studies (Malamuth, Hald, Yuen)
The Importance of Individual Differences in Pornography Use: Theoretical Perspectives and Implications for Treating Sexual Offenders (Kingston, Malamuth, Fedoroff, Marshall)
Self-Perceived Effects of Pornography Consumption (Hald, Malamuth)
Predicting sexual aggression: the role of pornography in the context of general and specific risk factors (Malamuth, Vega)
Pornography and teenagers: the importance of individual differences. (Huppin, Malamuth) (I can already expect that this will be descended upon by eager defenders of pornography.)
Malamuth has done much more.
SHIFTING PREFERENCES IN PORNOGRAPHY CONSUMPTION (Bryant, Zillmann) (library registration needed?)
Pornography and Sexual Callousness, and the Trivialization of Rape (Bryant, Zillmann)
Pornography’s Impact on Sexual Satisfaction (Bryant, Zillmann)
The Methods and Merits of Pornography Research (Bryant, Zillmann)
Oh, let me quote from the first page (of this discussion which is obviously not inherently biased towards anti-porn):
The controversy over effects of violent and nonviolent pornography alike has been unnecessarily harsh and laden with false accusations (e.g., 3, 11, 18). It has the emotional overtones that characterize the defense of highly valued, precious commodities.
No shit.
Zillmann and Bryant have also done more.
This was accumulated by yours truly who is the mistress of procrastination!
Between this and the “why, yes, in fact, multiple people you encounter in your daily life ARE fantasizing about your violent denoument (but at the same time, they don’t really mean it, silly, your pain and suffering is just all mental fun and games for them!)” comment elsewhere —
bean has really iced the cake on my voluntary permanent celibacy, twice. Or maybe this is just the cherry on top.
Really, I dunno what y’all are doing or who you’re doing it with — 25+ sex partners in my past and I don’t know any live humans who can “amaze me with the breadth and depth of human sexual imagination.” (Just offer a gradient scale of “boring”, from “this is frightening and painful” to “okay, I could reach orgasm, now what?”)
So those who have met these sexual artistes, here’s your I’ve-seen-a-unicorn pass?
[For the record, I tend to go with Twisty's idea: that there are perhaps loftier goals and better ways to enrich the soul than sex. And definitely better ways and goals than porn (which has become unfortunately indistinguishable from sex). So while I'd love to be optimistic here, color me skeptical.]
You know, I’m pretty convinced that Bean and Andrew actively hate womeyn. And women. And girls.
Thanks for being a voice of reason elkballet and for the links kurukurushoujo. I find it bizaare that anyone would think watching child porn would prevent the abuse of children when they need actual children to, um, ACT in child porn to supposedly stop them from molesting/raping kids. Makes sense.
Just to reiterate to the pro-exploitation folks, men LAUGH their ASSES OFF when you suggest prostitutes and women in porn are human.
If you’re a guy you know exactly what I mean.
Even the nice guys, guys who I had respect for and liked, guys who get teary-eyed at the mention of Nelson Mandela and Ghandi and the Dalai Lama and MLK find it absolutely hilarious to suggest such a thing. The way they snicker and giggle makes me want global warming to speed up and take us all out permanently.
“I have been looking and can’t find a damn thing that is not anti-inimacy, anti-creative and completely lacking in imagination. Those things I find when I sexually interact with humans, but never with porn. Please advise.”
Well…there is alot of creative and imaginative stuff out there. Some people put alot of work into making *really* disturbing porn.
@isme –
Yeah, I guess you are right. I tend to equate creativity with embodiment and connection, but that’s just based on my experience.
I guess you could argue that the little boys I grew up with who would come up with new ways to torture animals and Dr. Mengele were also “creative” in their own way. Maybe that’s what Bean meant.
kurukurushoujo – Whoa, thanks for all the links. They went into a notepad file immediately.
elkballet – Just chiming in with “great comments.”
My thanks to lizor, for attempting to answer the question I was actually asking. I thought it was a clear enough question, but obviously it wasn’t.
Unfortunately, my library does not have that book. I think my local bookstore has it, so I will have to track it down.
Now could you please tell me where you saw the porn that made you write “Some of it amazed me with the breadth and depth of human sexual imagination.”
I have been looking and can’t find a damn thing that is not anti-inimacy, anti-creative and completely lacking in imagination.
Lacking in imagination?! What are you doing, reading Robert Jensen’s descriptions of the porn he’s watched over and over? (Bad idea, by the way. He’s a pretty twisted dude.)
Note that my statement shouldn’t be combined with any other – some of that “breadth and depth” disturbed the shit out of me. But I’m amazed by anyone claiming it’s not there. I have a really, really, really, REALLY long list in my head of things that turn people on…and every time I make the idiotic mistake of thinking it’s as long as it’s going to get, something alerts me to the fact that I’m wrong (again). And for everything on that list, there’s probably dozens of variations I’d never be able to come up with on my own.
Human sexualities, I’m convinced, share many commonalities and yet are practically as individual as fingerprints. Evidence of that in erotic media is there if you actually look for it. And even the disturbing parts fascinate me, as it’s still evidence of our collective ability to be very, very imaginative, even when you would think conditions would be such (i.e. hegemony) that we wouldn’t be. Sorry, but I see even “disturbing” stuff (which is not necessarily disturbing because it’s misogynistic, mind – it may be disturbing for entirely different reasons) as potential sites of resistance.
I know you’re going to disagree with me on that one, but the argument continues to be (or seems to be), “I don’t watch porn; but when I do, it’s all the same plastic stuff. So I don’t watch more because I know it’s all the same. So if you say otherwise you’re wrong/crazy.” Uh, okay. But that’s not convincing, and I hope you can see why that argument does not look convincing.
Maybe we don’t mean it all LOOKS the same — maybe we think it’s all the same because it’s all objectification.
No Bean, I am not “reading Robert Jensen’s descriptions of the porn he’s watched over and over”.
But I have read Jensen’s book on the function of the church in contemporary western communities and it was great; clear-eyed, articulate and honest – nothing “twisted” at all. I have also watched his lectures on porn and masculinity and I fail to see anything “twisted” there either. Do you actually have an articulate critique of Jensen’s work, or are you going to stick with the ad hominem mud-slinging?
Your patronizing and presumptive response is really offensive, lecturing me on human sexuality and then telling me what my response is sure to be (because of course you’ve heard it all before with my “type”). Where the fuck do you get off?
What I’ve seen on the [het] pages on Redtube and Youporn, etc and of these myriad pop-ups that you have to swat every time you go to one of these places are so cock/penetration-centred, so preoccupied with ogling a single female body type, use the same degrading language, the same anal/face shot finish, etc. I have seen far more variety in erotic art anthologies of pre-20th century and non-western imagery, but we are talking about the modern, western, profit-driven porn industry.
I have looked for this wonderful celebration of the spectrum of human physical pleasure which you imply I am too ignorant or incompetent to find and I am not seeing it. Internet porn appears to mirror to the same narrow fascistic picture of humanity that Hollywood film execs manufacture to feed our “content” addition. I see no more reflection of my experience of sex – well, not counting the rape, that is there for sure – but none of the experiences I have had in the latter part of my healing. Perhaps it’s because I love my lover and contemporary porn, as Annie Sprinkle said in a recent lecture I attended, marginalizes love altogether.
I ask you again, if there is some internet pornography out there that is not all about looking at the women getting penetrated by cocks, toys or foreign objects, cum, pissed and or shit upon, that does not use the same old dumb-to-degrading language, the same old predictable “pounding”, “banging” and “slamming”, that does not presume power-over (“play” or real) is a prerequisite to arousal, please tell me where this stuff is. It most certainly is not showing up in the “most-watched” lists.
Lacking in imagination?! What are you doing, reading Robert Jensen’s descriptions of the porn he’s watched over and over? (Bad idea, by the way. He’s a pretty twisted dude.)
What’s wrong with Jensen? I already heard about his creepiness a couple of times without actually seeing evidence for it.
potential sites of resistance
In a strictly individual sense. You cannot fuck yourself to freedom as a group. Didn’t work in the 70s, doesn’t work now and won’t work in the future- at least if people go on pretending that all forms of sexuality are equally good and valid. Because they see themselves as a typical representative of society although being anything but. This is why, Bean, you having invested a lot of time into finding creative porn- at least according to your standards, nobody here knows what you think is creative- doesn’t mean that the potential existence of your preferred category of porn is actually significant enough to count as an argument.
When people want to have a quick jack-off (and porn is predominantly about having a quick jack-off) they visit sites like YouPorn or Pornhub- and the stuff over there is repetitive as hell. Most obviously wouldn’t want to have it any other way- this is the reason those sites are so successful.
If people are basing their sexualities off things they see on film or in pictures, how is that “creative”?
gracemargaret
Oh, PLEASE. White women DID say they were raped when they were found having sex with black men. And that resulted in the lynching of said black man. I’m not saying for every lynching ever but it did happen.
White folks would gather around and treat the lynching a entertainment/picnic. Some of the old photos show white children and women sitting around. So don’t say, ‘Oh, innocent white women never, ever, ever perpetuated racism, no sir, that’s only white MEN.”
Watching white feminists talk about race (see a thread at Twisty’s that degenerated into white feminists telling women of color that their experiences didn’t matter and the PINNACLE of oppression is being a white attractive female and in fact they’re less oppressed because they are non-white) is like watching MRAs talk about women: puke inducing.
Zas, what comment of mine are you addressing? The one where I talked about a white family, where mom, dad, son and daughter are having a picnic while a black man is hanging from a tree? The mom and daughter would be female racists, wouldn’t they?
Where did I say ‘Oh, innocent white women never, ever, ever perpetuated racism, no sir, that’s only white MEN”?
Please point it out to me. Why not address what I ACTUALLY said and not your strawmen arguments.
Yeah and I’m sure Twisty, who’s a lesbian and not into sexiness much, thinks the PINNACLE of oppression is being a white attractive female and that women of color aren’t important. Do you have anything to actually back up your accusations or are you twisting her words around (no pun intended) like you just did mine.
http://www.ukfeminista.org.uk/blog/2010/12/30/91-losingheadsoverpornblock.html
http://www.antipornmen.org/
Wait, is the porn position you guys are holding criminalization of production or is it possession?
Heres what I don’t get though, and that is your opposition about cartoon porn/hentai. I mean, there are no real performers to be abused (such as in Western Porn and Possibly JAV). I mean, some very famous seiyuus do Eroge (aka. H-Games) and Hentai anime. For example, Norio Wakomoto (from Code Geass, Koihime Musou), Shizuka Itou (Amagami SS, Beelzebub), and Yukou Gotou (Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Shuffle) so you won’t find much abuse in this industry.
In addition, I really don’t buy that these “images” are harmful. First of all because one would have to actively look for the more extreme hentai, if you are not aroused by some of the more extreme stuff, you won’t watch it.
In addition, those who seek the more niche videos (such as scat, rape, bondage as in Night Shift Nurses or Bondage Games) are already aroused by this kinda of stuff, so taking away this stuff isn’t going to change the fact those guys are aroused by rape and etc.
Also, what about the vanilla hentai stuff. And by that I mean the scenes you will see in your typical high-school romance/comedy escapist eroge. Where the only sex scenes are those of the main character and the heroine cosummating their relationship. This also applies to well written eroge such as Ef- A Fairy Tale of the Two and Muv Luv Alternative. I mean, what is the harm of letting people who have virtually no chance of successfully interacting with women in real life from escaping into a “safe” social environment where they are actually “desireable” or in some of the more extreme cases “powerful” in the sense that they would never have that kind of control in real life, (much like a person gunning down civilians in GTA4 or in the No Russian lvl in Modern Warfare 2).
gracemargaret, sorry that comment wasn’t addressed towards you but to the person talking about Kayne’s video as a defense of blackness and how it was the white men doing the oppressing.
Twisty herself didn’t say anything but the people who comment there. Here’s an example:
“‘this kind of white-girl objectification..would actually be a step up for women of color.’
Understood, but in disagreement and believing that this is a myth that has benefited the patriarchy. Given the choice between being a beauty compliant, slender white girl or a woman who is viewed as scary and sub human and unworthy of protection, I would deliberately choose the scary and subhuman role. Being the desirable commodity causes you to go nuts, shave your head, attempt suicide, etc, like we see the young girls in Hollywood do.”
I understand Zas, that is a messed up and ridiculous comment by the poster on Twisty’s blog. I don’t see how being expected to be slim and beautiful is worse than being seen as subhuman and scary and not worthy of protection. Then violence towards you is considered all the more acceptable.
As a former practicing anorexic, now a purposefully “scary” woman, I think it might be a “grass is always greener” situation.
Though anyone saying, “Gee, I wish I was MORE oppressed!” is clearly myopic.
mstrchef117,
I am getting a bit tired of the Hentai argument. This article doesn’t even mention how women in porn are treated, it is entirely about the portrayal of women. From ALL hentai I’ve seen, the portrayal of women is often worse than in “real” porn. I’ve seen things that were described as a loving relationship that involved violently (extremely violently) raping young girls. The way women are shown in hentai porn is extremely harmful and negative, and focuses more on rape than any other genre of porn I’ve heard of (except of course rape porn). The women in it are usually portrayed as helpless teases, just asking to be abused. They are usually drawn so unrealistically Barbie-like that it makes me wonder about the sanity of people who can get off to those mutants. Let alone watching mutants, who are clearly supposed to be young, being violently raped. And don’t tell me this doesn’t impact the way people view women, I read this quote:
The only “redeeming” quality about hentai is that it doesn’t contribute to the trafficking of women. But other than that, the portrayal of women in hentai is horrendous.
To clarify, Hentai genre spans videos, doujinshi(fan-made comics) and H-Games/VN
I’m apologize that all the hentai you have seen is all rape (which I do concede is probably 50%+ of the videos are dark shit, its much harder to sell a non-rape/story heavy hentai when the viewer has little interaction). There are definitely non-rape hentai out there. These are however most often non-rape, story heavy Eroge/VN (AIR, Kanon, Ef-Fairy Tale, Rumbling Hearts, Canvas 2 etc.). These games have been adapted to all-ages games (aka. sex scenes removed)and popular anime. You can hardly call those images harmful. If you were to ban all porn or “criminalize” it, you would scoop up some genuine work with some literary value in it. You are blanket labeling an entire genre although it probably not that hard for someone to think that all hentai is rape as most of the stuff that reaches the US is that…..
The relative amount of “dog porn” to ANY other porn is enough to make me feel physically sick. That’s all I needed to open my eyes.
http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_181_if-every-excuse-turned-out-to-be-true_p20
I am “AlinaRockss” on there….I know I shouldnt of even bothered on a site like cracked but I couldnt helpt it.
UPDATE
on the same site there is a forum for people who try to stop looking at porn.
http://www.cracked.com/forums/topic/12020/the-great-internet-porn-off-cont./3760
Argh that’s SO depressing about the “trying” to stop porn. People keep insisting that only 8% of the entire population is addicted (like that’s a low number on its own) and we see hundreds of thousands of relationships and marriages devastated cause the guy didn’t want to stop looking at porn. I mean come ON. How does that not fit the definition of addicted to porn if a guy would choose to hold onto his porn over his relationship? I’d say half the male population minimum is “addicted.”
Yeah I know,you can se how I got scrutinized and “put in my place” in the first link I posted.On the second link those men are actually trying and some of them are even pointing out the harms of porn.I am for once positively surprised,I didnt expect anything like that,on a website who´s main target are men.Isnt it if your´e not addicted then stop right now…
ahem,any input in that thread on cracked by any of you would be appreciated.
thank you LizWinsor,I am really happy for your reply on the cracked thread(I assume its someone from here because of the registration date)
@ Alina – I tried to comment a while ago and could not get registered. Think I got it this time.
Way to go holding your own against that bunch of HISterical (thanks to isme on the other thread – I’ll be using this from now on) reactionaries.
Thank you ISME, are you LizWinsor on there?
I was a lil surprised as to how outraged people got because I think porn is harmfull, some got really angry,HISterical indeed.
How dare a person not submit to the mainstream and go against something “cool” and widely spread. There where some who actually tried really hard to weaken my postion and credibility… its probably wishfull thinking but I hope that my opinions and durance intimidated some of those backwarded fuckers.
What got me angry is that 90% concentrated on making me out to have an extreme low self esteem(whilst I actually stood up alone against a bunch of ppl, and I dont think I done that bad either) whilst I know that it was part of weaking my credibility most of them do believe that I must be someone who is affected by somehting like Body dysmorphic disorder, I mean I must be, it couldnt just be that I hate everything that is porn and I especially would not tolerate it in a relationship. *sigh*
One comment annoyed me peticulary and that was from a girl saying if you cant go against then join them, and all the women who proudly announced they actually LOVE porn, in an attempt to prove me wrong and “shock” me at the same time.
And ofcourse there where the ones going on about me being prude and having issues with my sexuality…..grrrrr how I hate those.
On the same page they do have that porn-off (as I mentioned before) but its mostly for people who are addicted to porn,tho every now and then I came across some posters who werent addicted and aknowledged the harms of it.
I ment thank you lizor,sorry its cuz i red the last bit about ISME and HISTERICAL.
“its probably wishfull thinking but I hope that my opinions and durance intimidated some of those backwarded fuckers.”
I’m afraid not. In my experience, the most you can realistically hope to achieve is to comfort other bashing their head against that wall that not everyone is out to get them.
Personally, it’s not so much the obvious morons that I tend to find disturbing, it’s the more intelligent, educated people that are able to think for themselves and come up with interesting points regarding any issue not concerned with sexism, or entitlement in general.
Stepping outside of liberal bounds here – all of those women chiming in with “I love porn and I’m a woman!!” should read Malcolm x’s ‘House Negros’ speech.
Bloody hell, those guys [on cracked] are even worse then the people I talk to on 4chan (yea I know). But there was seriously no need for the personal insults and level of vitriol that they responded with. Although, (to avoid sounding like I’m blaming Alina), her comment could have been deemed “inflammatory” and/or “troll-baity” enough for them to want to respond ,which is unfortunate as this labels all porn watchers/users (though most likely pirates, because who pays for porn nowadays) can’t argue without resorting to insults and ad hominem attacks is embarrassing as a semi-avid porn user myself (as I have been semi-guilt tripped, by this blog, and a h-game/ VN Story about an abused woman none the less, into avoiding live action porn like the plague, but I digress ).
@mstrchef117
Well I agree partially because I was actually ment to write “to all who use the #1 excuse how would u find it if ur gf/wife was looking at porn and making half assed excuses about it.Hope all of u who use porn despite ur partners feelings MAYBE getting hurt,get cheated on.
Yeah so I forgot to type MAYBE,and you can only edit within like 5 min.I did specify that MAYBE in a few posts on there tho.
I guess you could say that my original post on cracked was put in a quite infantile way.
@isme
Well yeah ofcourse the more intelligent ones are the more dangerous ones.Many of them spend a hell lot of time rationalizing the use of porn,I wonder if its because they know its wrong atleast subconsciously??
@lizor
Regarding your comparsion to the ´house negros´ yeah I can see alot of parallels.Too many women are so submissive and rationalize their submission in mostly very dumb ways.I bet alot of those porn loving women kind of think they are better and ´open-minded´ if they accept or encourage/join the porn using.
It never fucking stopped to be about pleasing the fucking MAN…I fucking hate how women are brought up to always put the man first.To shit on yourself,your feelings and wishes/desires to make the cock in your life more happy.I want more women to sit down and think how many fucking compromises they make and how many the Men do!!!For many women life is like that: go to work,take care of the kids(mostly her cuz its a “womans duty”)cook,take care of the husband/bf,trying to look fuckable as fuckable as the women in the porn the partner is wanking to,cuz its his “RIGHT”
Whilst men get away with being fat,not taking care of the kids all that much,not cooking oh and how did I miss that 1 out CLEANING.Alo its okay if they have drink in pubs,oggle at women,go to stripclubs perhaps and the good ole porn.Before some assholes points it out,yeah I know its not ALL men.
Another thing that I am sure of,is that many women secretely hate that their better half uses porn,but unfortunetaly its so widespread and popular that I bet many of them think as if there is something wrong with them like excessive jealousy,insecurity rather then that its normal to not like it or being hurt by it.How they come to that conclusion is easy to see on how me and my opinions have been threated on cracked.
@mstrchef117
“guilt tripped”??? What are you talking about? If you support a corrupt and predatory industry that hurts women in measurable ways, or if you participate in a practice/ideology that degrades women, then that is what you are doing. If you make ethically poor choices then it no one’s fault but your own. Quit trying to abdicate responsibility for your actions and for the consequences of those actions.
“Well yeah ofcourse the more intelligent ones are the more dangerous ones.Many of them spend a hell lot of time rationalizing the use of porn,I wonder if its because they know its wrong atleast subconsciously??”
Perhaps some are threatened by having their doublethink pointed out to them (going to the effort of pretending to be nice people and thinking of women and equals and all), but generally I wouldn’t have said so.
Right and wrong are subjective, after all, and who is to say that women should be treated as equals? Well, apart from the women, of course, but they obviously don’t count. Firmly entrenching oneself upon some form of moral high ground is worth any amount of blinkered thinking, it would seem.
@ Alina -
The “I’m a porn-loving woman” squad, from where I’m sitting, looks like a growing legion of “socially adapted” people trying to survive in the best way possible: You just have to kill a chunk of your soul, cheerfully submit, insist that being domesticated is your own choice and everything will be “fine”. It takes courage to insist on self-determination and it would seem that a lot of women would rather play along, giving themselves a virtual lobotomy, for the crumbs of short-term approval.
Love your two paragraphs about pleasing men and the dudes being fat self-indulgent slobs. This is so old and prevalent and sadly SO relevant.
Fuck.
@isme
Allow me to clarify that “guilt-tripped” part of my comment as there seems to be a misunderstanding, which I take full responsibility for as I probably could have used a better term. I would say it was more like a small scale “heel realization” (tvtropes ftw : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelRealization). The point was, I felt guilty/horrible enough on the inside to refrain from using live-action porn. I was in no way abdicating my responsibility. Its just that I don’t usually empathize with people unless I have a form of emotional attachment, when I played a VN/H-Game with a “heroine” which is basically your the tragic abused heroine (of which, the bad ending, leads here to join the Adult Film Ind….., which I do believes imply something) and then, reading that well, what happened in game/story, is quite common, and then arguing in with myself, that to be consistent (as I felt strongly for Yuka, and her tragic past), I should stop watching porn where real women are exploited and hurt. So I guess, it took a porn game to get me to stop watching porn. Lol, the irony.
Sorry, about the typos in the previous comment..I really should proofread my stuff. :(
@isme
I kind of doubt that most people realize what being completely equal actually means/involves.
That I believe is because of the gender-roles and certain actions are made out to be down to being a “woman” or being a “man” like raising a child,or fixing the car.
Most people will accept equality only within the vacuum of gender-roles and as far as they are concerned,we allready are equal and anything more is just us being crazy feminazis.
quote lizor:
´The “I’m a porn-loving woman” squad, from where I’m sitting, looks like a growing legion of “socially adapted” people trying to survive in the best way possible: You just have to kill a chunk of your soul, cheerfully submit, insist that being domesticated is your own choice and everything will be “fine”. It takes courage to insist on self-determination and it would seem that a lot of women would rather play along, giving themselves a virtual lobotomy, for the crumbs of short-term approval.´
Needless to say how I totally agree to that and is to a high extent what I was trying to say,expressed in frankly a much better way,lol.It needed to be quoted its that good.
I sometimes come across women who even overcompensate the anti-woman sexism because they are unlucky enough to be born the “wrong gender”.
Reminds me very much of that experiment where black girls where given the choice of choosing between a black doll and a white doll and most of them chose the white doll as they found it to be the prettier one.When they were asked wich doll looks more like themselfs,they did point out the black one.
In my teenage years I have killed chunks of my soul by conforming to the mass,it always hurt me bothered me and killed my self-esteem slowly (we all do that to some extent in our teens,I know) .And funny enough no matter how much I conformed and how much of my personality I “changed” it never was enough.And yeah you are damn right its hard to go against the mass and be self-determined.
I pointed that out many times in my cracked comments,its ironic that how the way ppl reacted to me is the perfect evidence as to why women hardly ever speak up.
Thank fuck that in my early 20s I started to become exactly who I wanted to be,realising that you know what fuck fitting in,fuck ppl hating me for my opinions.
“no matter how much I conformed and how much of my personality I “changed” it never was enough.And yeah you are damn right its hard to go against the mass and be self-determined”
That’s why what you did over on that thread was so important. You never blinked despite the hysteria and abuse being hurled at you.
Internet gutter-talk aside, I have had to come to terms with the fact that internalized misogyny is a psychological blind spot for most people and when you point to some aspect of a person that they are denial about, they will almost inevitably go all ‘fight or flight’ on you, and start hurling all sorts of utter nonsense with an incredible amount of fear and rage behind it. It’s a shitty job shedding light on this darkness, but now, more than ever, someone has to do it.
Despite the incoherent defensiveness and personal attacks directed at you Alina, I think that there is a chance that maybe on or two people who read that thread may have remembered your words next time they looked at porn. You may not always see the positive results of the building blocks you offer people by speaking the truth, but that does not mean those positive results don’t exist.
I am reading a book by a jungian feminist (as you can probably tell by some of my language) and she discusses the predatory internal voices that tell us we are not good enough, or in the most extreme, good for nothing and it struck me that this is exactly what porn literally and explicitly enacts and celebrates. The repeated “this is all you are good for” in porn.
I like to think that a woman who is getting off sexually to a fantasy of her own obliteration, her own erasure, will at some point remember a web comment, or maybe a conversation that made her very mad at the time and that she may say “Am I more than this? Am I better than where I place myself in this story?” and then she’ll start to wake up.
Something like ‘The Story of O’ is a good example of the ‘erasure’ you speak of, lizor. It is literally about a woman being reduced to absolute zero. I think that subconsciously, men want women represented this way in porn because they hate that womyn have a kind of inner ‘knowing’ as to exactly what they want, and when. Time on this earthly plane has always belonged to womyn.
I won’t put words in the mouths of other womyn, but I know exactly what time in the month I need a really good meal, and it’s usually the pre-menstrual time. I also know exactly when I want to be intimate, and I won’t let a man tell me when that should be. I think men really resent this, much as they go on and on ad nauseum that they love a woman with an ‘appetite.’ In truth, I think they are very threatened by it, because it implies true autonomy. Porn is the total reversal of any notion of female independence or preference, sexual or otherwise. I think the great MAW goddess should just devour all of that rubbish, recycle and start over again. Kali at her best! ;) And it would be great to start over again without males in the picture, but perhaps that is just wishful thinking.
I am on a new computer and am having trouble posting, so apologies for double postings and I hope my post on the other thread went through.
Re: story of O – absolutely. And in part I can understand the impulse towards complete abdication of responsibility. Living is hard. Living with integrity is hard. I think the “O” model is metaphorically about going back to the womb. It doesn’t work.
Thank heavens for this blog and the amazing people posting their thoughts here.
So true lizor. I know too many women who will not ‘own’ their experience, and have paid a terrible price. There is a reason we are born in separate bodies and live our best lives with such when we claim them as our own, along with the mind that comes with them. I get the impression from some folk that they’d rather be living that awful horror film ‘Society,’ in which all is just one big orgy of flesh melding indiscriminately into other flesh and the individual bodies are no longer discernible. Co-dependence and subservience are words I want to banish from my life forever. And I’m greatly relieved that there are at least a few here who feel the same.
My comments are so far down on the list you may never see it, and that is ok. But in case you do, on the 2nd sentence in this blog post of yours I was SOOO on your train that I could not get off it till you were done taking me on your trip. And I gotta say, you are so right on!
I saw your comment. Thanks!
You’re amazing. We need more logical people in this world like you. Finally its great to read something which I completely agree with. Thank you.
Reblogged this on violentwinter.