I agree with the posters that Andrew is an arrogant asshole! Women know from the cradle we need to take precautions. We don’t need to hear it from him.

Andrew’s attempt to put the onus on women to prevent rape while giving himself and other men a free pass is just another case of men defending each other’s property rights (free sexual access to any woman’s body they desire). Even if that wasn’t his intent, that is exactly what he’s doing.

You call my scenario ridiculous but then you go on to give one as equally ridiculous. Because my friend should know that leaving me alone with you, a friend, would lead to my rape simply because I was tipsy?

You analogy doesn’t say why I would leave with you? Are we friends? Are you some stranger? Again, what about your friend? Do I know him? You say nothing about this because in your vision it wouldn’t matter as long as my friend steps up and polices my action.

Again, women need to prevent rape. Women need to police their own actions and their friends actions because we bear the onus of preventing rape.

That is what your scenario shares in black and white. I might have told your friend, especially if you were both my friends. I might have asked him why he didn’t tell me he thought you were capable of rape since he seems to think you might have been. Yet on the other hand, if he took you aside and said hey, she seems a little too drunk to really say yes man, why don’t we both walk her home together would you have said no?

Instead no, let’s make sure the women step in and police it because the onus is on women to prevent rape, not men. Because men just don’t like the thought they could be slimy like that.

So in your perfect world rape wouldn’t happen because women would make sure men didn’t rape.

Sigh, I really wonder why you can’t see that when you keep telling women how we need to do things in order for rape not to happen you are telling women that they do bear the onus for rape prevention.

Prettying that up with saying men bear the ultimate responsibility, or that men are the one’s who do the rape you continually say that women need to do things in order to make rape disappear.

And also, one last thing. It is fine trying to make sure others don’t misunderstand someone but why is it okay for you to protect Dougal so we understand him, but not for you to say Dougal that his attitude might be wrong?

Ultimately the onus should be on men.

Wow. Just…wow. I didn’t think victim-blaming could reach even more dizzying dizzying heights of absurdity, but this is just…wow.

Ok, Andrew, I’ll be a good little girl and take your advice. Since, according to your logic, a women is “asking for it” by having the audacity to:
a) drink an alcoholic beverage or two while in proximity of a member(s) of the opposite sex
b) allow one’s self to be alone with a known and trusted member of the opposite sex
c) generally not be in the vicinity of any member of the opposite sex at any time unless I’m committed to maintaining 100% sober hyper-vigilance, am armed to the eyeteeth, and have completed martial arts training and received a black belt in “rape preparedness”.
That means no more parties, no more dating, no more meeting friends at a pub for a drink or two, no more hanging out with male friends. So I guess my social life is now limited to socializing exclusively with women in my home or theirs, and only if there aren’t any men present because being in the vicinity of a man is like asking him to rape me or something…according to Andrew.

Hmm…this seems oddly familiar. This new and safer social life is startlingly similar to the social life of a Middle Eastern Muslim woman. Interesting. In order to exonerate myself of responsibility, should I ever be raped, I have to essentially live the life of sheltered orthodox Muslim woman.

:-(

#:## (Sad face wearing a burqa, which is certain to be Andrew’s next suggestion for leading a rape-free lifestyle.)

Until further notice, I for one will not be responding to him. Far from being worth the effort, it’s more like feeding a troll.

The focus has remained on women in this discussion because the focus has remained on one comment I made. Because that comment focused on women, all the rest do as well. Since you implied that my comment was merely “offensive” (as opposed to wrong) we can move past it.

As for your example, I think what’s behind the silliness of me being blamed for my own shooting is the idea that I would never expect to get shot by you. As a result, it would be really unfair to blame me for something completely unforeseeable which you had complete control over.

Your analogy then is that it would be equally silly for women to expect to be raped (and thus be blamed for it) by acquaintances and people they trust that ultimately have control. Maybe what accounts for the difference between rape, murder, and victim blaming is men’s perspectives on our own capacity to rape. Maybe we expect all men to be the slimy douchebags we see ourselves as and so assume women should always expect to be raped because we are all about that. Maybe we just assume that men are going to rape no matter what and so if there is any hope for stopping it it is the the ability of women to protect themselves. Whatever the assumption is, the hypothesis behind the social experiment that the rules epitomize is that men can stop other men from rape. As far as I understand it, that’s been the idea behind rape laws for centuries now and it is still a problem. Men can’t stop other men from doing anything, least of all controlling their sexual impulses.

Let me share an example with you: You and I, after a few drinks, are leaving a bar. MY friend tells me not to rape you, I do so anyway. He would never know because I would never tell him and you would never report it. As a result, he could never check my behavior by ending our friendship, reporting me to the cops, etc. Alternatively, assume we are leaving and YOUR friend steps in and tells me, “Look, she is too drunk so I am not gonna let her leave with you.”

In scenario one (the one favored by most of the women here) the girl gets raped and I get away with it. In scenario two (my vision) she does not. That is why I can’t accept the idea that my idea is either offensive or wrong.

P.S. The reason I “barged” onto this thread in the first place was because everyone was misconstruing Dougal’s comments above. I figured before he got ran off this blog you all should at least be clear about what he was saying.

That’s all I am going to say on this topic.

Okay I have tried even with some bad typos to explain why I am angry that you barged in, I have written long missive after missive explaining why I really disliked the tone of your voice and I have even given you the benefit of the doubt here. So one last time here’s why I am having “beef”:

YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO BARGE INTO A DISCUSSION ON WHERE MEN NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND TURN IT BACK AROUND ON WOMEN!

Stop. Do not pass go. Do not collect two hundred dollars. No.

You march in here and tell us “Rape is invariably a man’s fault”, but then continue to harp on the things WOMEN can do to minimize their risks.

You will not discuss anything else but those points. Andrew what do I need to tell you? * these are to indicate my sarcasm Andrew just in case you are oblivious.*

I am about five inches from banging my head really hard against my keyboard though. You seem to fixate on one point so hell with it, I am going to address it.

“It was about whether saying such puts the onus of rape prevention on the victim.” you said, meaning if barging into this space to tell us how to defend ourselves puts the onus of prevention on women.

No, if you then went on to talk about how men could dismantle their own myths about what women want or even if you then went on to discuss how we might be able to dismantle those myths.

Instead all you focus on is the women. Guess what, yes then it does become VICTIM BLAMING.

Example:

You and I know each other for three or four years. We go out to see a play. The play is Rent. I absolutely adore Rent. We go back to our car through an alley having an argument about Rent. In the alley I shot you.

Everyone comes out of the woodwork to tell you how you shouldn’t have walked down the alley with me, and why didn’t you walk in a group or make sure I didn’t have a conceal and carry permit or the like. What if they did that on a list where it puts all blame on people like me who randomly shoots other on me but instead everyone just focused on you and why you should have done something different and any man like you who would get shot in an alley. How would you feel?

Do you get it now or does the entitlement still blind?

“If the woman was related to me she would hear quite often about how she should and shouldn’t act based on the probability she might be assaulted because of it.
I wouldn’t beat a dead horse and tell her she should have done something differently if she were raped.
If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently.”

“…one of my best girl friends was sexually assaulted, it was much easier to do because she was under the influence.
So there is at least ONE woman who could have used my advice.”

“As for you, you recognize the risk of your actions. You make an educated decision regarding your autonomy.
For most women that choice is not clear and it is not made intelligently.”

“Jamie Leigh Jones is a perfect example of this as she was slipped a date rape drug and gang raped in what can easily be described as one of the worst cases I’ve ever read.
Am I blaming her for her assault? No, absolutely not. Do I think it could have been prevented if she had refused the drink. I am not sure. Would she have definitely stood a better chance of fighting off these men sober. Yes.”

“Hypothetical: Lets pretend a woman volunteered to spend a night alone in a house with a convicted rapist. If she is raped, what level of sympathy is the woman entitled to?”

It surreal, the arrogance and cruel insensitivity.
Valley was very clear and concise as the what her beef was. But of course you completely ignored her, and all the other women here, which is part of the problem…men tend to IGNORE what we say and keep blathering on and on without any thought to the implications of anything they say or do.

And in the extreme form, that attitude is what is behind a man ignoring a woman saying NO to sex and just continuing as if she said absolutely nothing. If men actually respected and listened to what women had to say about their own lives, their own experiences, and what happens to THEIR OWN BODIES, rape would not exist.