Holy shit, does this rule.

7 Oct

I received this list in an e-mail and I’m pretty sure it’s incumbent upon me to share it with the world, seeing as it’s the greatest thing I’ve read in weeks. I especially like number eight.

Sexual Assault Prevention Tips Guaranteed to Work!

1. Don’t put drugs in people’s drinks in order to control their behavior.

2. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!

3. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!

4. NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.

5. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON’T ASSAULT THEM!

6. Remember, people go to laundry to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

7. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.

8. Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.

9. Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!

10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone “on accident” you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do.

And, ALWAYS REMEMBER: if you didn’t ask permission and then respect the answer the first time, you are commiting a crime — no matter how “into it” others appear to be.

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152 Responses to “Holy shit, does this rule.”

  1. Vic October 8, 2009 at 1:27 AM #

    I must agree. It certainly made my day.

    Now… if only colleges would actually employ this list!

  2. Hattie October 8, 2009 at 2:23 AM #

    Wow. Nice turn about.

  3. Jenn October 8, 2009 at 3:49 AM #

    I got that a while back too. Man, I love this list. Unlike the other ones, they’re actual tips that are guaranteed to work. Because unlike other lists, this one doesn’t fester with the stupid assumption that women can prevent men from being rapists and that men are only rapists because of biology/access to women (who shouldn’t be outside, apparently)/destiny.

    Human agency and rightful distribution of responsibility: what fucking novel concepts!

    • steve mandivengerei October 28, 2009 at 12:13 AM #

      got me thinking!definitely different from other ways of looking at the problem of sexual assaul/rape. it seeks to deal with the perpetrator rather than the would be victim.should be every potential aggressor/rapist’s bible and women will be in all these places safe and free from fear!

  4. aArdvark October 8, 2009 at 3:00 PM #

    Holy shit, that’s great advice, and I am so sure every rapist will take it to heart immediately.

  5. kendallmck October 8, 2009 at 3:56 PM #

    Yeah, these awesome snarky “rape prevention tips” blogs have been enjoying a Renaissance lately. There were some good ones a few years back, too. I remember back on the ol’ MySpace I sent out a bulletin (hahahaha) that basically was all “How to Prevent Rape:

    1: If you see a lady walking alone at night, don’t rape her.

    2: When someone has too much to drink, don’t rape them.

    3: When someone is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape them.

    4: When someone tells you “no,” even if they said “yes” five seconds, minutes, weeks, years ago, don’t rape them.

    You get the idea. This one is better though.

  6. isme October 9, 2009 at 12:29 AM #

    Awesome.

  7. Natalia Antonova October 9, 2009 at 12:09 PM #

    Wow, this is terrific.

  8. Finisterre October 9, 2009 at 12:35 PM #

    “If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them.”

    Arf.

  9. Dougal October 9, 2009 at 4:36 PM #

    How does the whole conceit vis-a-vis rape and assault play in prisons? Is the base motivation male control and domination over women because they are women or sexual gratification for its own purpose? some combination of the two? or are there other motives at play?

    • Nine Deuce October 9, 2009 at 5:08 PM #

      The motivation is power, and men in prison “feminize” and gain control over other men by raping them.

      • Dougal October 9, 2009 at 5:54 PM #

        So the base motivation is “feminizing” another as an inferior-or to make inferior-in order to gain superiority by control and dominion (maybe more dominion than control). If this is the nature of the case, then feminism – as a movement – at its core, is to rage against this “feminization” in all its forms. My question is why? Surely we all rage against those who put us down, we revolt against those seeking to impose their will over us and to blunt our free will. And we all demand respect. But where are the lines drawn? I don’t mean to appear obtuse, but aren’t there always going to be gradual distinctions in how we view each other (instinctualy and socially) such that attraction and repulsion can be allowed to operate?

        Maybe I’m not seeing the forest for the trees. I just believe there are inherent differences between men and women, and though they may be naturally blurred in many cases, I see them as a necessary component to perpetuating the species. I don’t see my views as misogynistic…am I wrong or just unschooled?

        • Nine Deuce October 9, 2009 at 6:20 PM #

          The base motivation is to have power over someone else, to dominate them. Since most men in prison who rape other men tend to be the kinds of people who are sexually violent with women outside of prison, I think the idea that they think they are “feminizing” their male victims is pretty obvious. Women to these men = weak subhumans that men use and dominate via rape, hence raping a man turns him into a woman.

          My version of feminism does indeed tend toward deriding “feminization,” in the sense that I’m tired of being told what women are supposed to be/do, when that often plays out as women subjugating our personhood to male desires. See the fashion industry, the plastic surgery industry, the influence of porn on popular culture, etc.

          Fine distinctions in the way we view each other are all fine, but that isn’t what is going on in the world today. Broad, stupid expectations are created by female/male gender roles. That’s what I have a problem with. If we were all considered human beings, fine distinctions would be how we differentiate one person from the next. As for now, we do it based on preconceived and limiting notions of gender.

          The only definite inherent difference between women and men is genitalia and reproductive organs. Name me an “inherent” female or male trait and I’ll show you evidence of societies in which people believe it’s an inherent trait in the opposite gender.

          As for perpetuating the species, how would we die out as a species if women and men all had the freedom to choose how to present themselves and behave without an overarching patriarchal structure telling them what to do? And do we really need to worry about perpetuating the species? The world is already overpopulated.

          Besides, the problem isn’t necessarily difference, it’s hierarchy. As of now, we live in a male supremacist society. You can claim that isn’t the case because women have made strides in some places in some times, but the fact remains. I, of course, think gender roles are socially constructed and hence bullshit, but even if the traits ascribed to women were innate, that wouldn’t explain why they’re considered inferior to male traits considered to be innate. The reason why is that we live in a misogynistic, hierarchical society.

  10. polly styrene October 9, 2009 at 6:40 PM #

    Douglas I have no idea what you’re on about. But here’s the thing. It’s about power, all of it.

    Males who are lower down the pecking order to other males are still allowed to have power over women. In prison, there are no women. So the *weakest* males become the *women*.

    Feminism isn’t raging against feminizing. It’s raging against masculinity – aka the fetishising of power. To be masculine is constructed as to have power. Males who need to prove their masculinity need to have a *woman* to degrade. Here’s Quentin Crisp again:

    There’s no sin like being a woman. When a man dresses as a woman everyone laughs, when a woman dresses as a man nobody laughs. When Marlene Dietrich appeared as a petty officer in Seven Sinners nobody laughed, they thought she looked wonderful, and she did. Being a man is seen as uplifting yourself and being a woman is seen as degrading yourself.

    I don’t see why you think that the existence of difference means that people thenhave to beat the shit out of/rape people who are different from them. It’s a complete non sequitur

    The existence of difference is nothing to do with rape. Just as *feminity* is nothing to do with wearing pretty frocks. It’s about a constructed power relationship. The frocks are just a symbol of that.

  11. polly styrene October 9, 2009 at 6:55 PM #

    Oh and the only things necessary to perpetuating the species (assuming you really want to do that) are a fertilized ovum and a female body for it to develop in. Again rape is not required. Neither is sex these days. And pretty soon the sperm may be surplus to requirements as well.

  12. Dougal October 9, 2009 at 8:56 PM #

    “As for now, we do it based on preconceived and limiting notions of gender….” ND

    And I think what is not preconceived is “gender-educated” in the male from childhood through adulthood by the very examples to you cite in other posts: play (Barbie dolls, Easy Bake Oven, tea sets), fashion (colors and styles), employment (women are always chosen as the actors for commercials hocking cleaning products – when I see a male in a Swiffer commercial I’ll cry “progress!” for you). So I see your points.

    poly styrene: It seems a misquote to say that I stated that differences ‘mean’ that people have to, or should beat up on others. Quite the opposite, that differences make us who we are. Then I posited the thought that feminism as a movement seeks to eliminate these differences. But you and ND cleared up the rationale by offering that: the distinctions are innate, its the social construct that is flawed. Cool….

    • Nine Deuce October 9, 2009 at 9:54 PM #

      No, the distinctions are not innate.

      • Dougal October 9, 2009 at 10:08 PM #

        Ahh bees! I thought I had it right. I’m really loving the thread under the “Who is this Bitch?” section. I’m spending more time there. The caps-lock guy is killing me.

        • joankelly6000 October 10, 2009 at 12:25 AM #

          How ’bout you don’t make a thread about not-raping into a Men are From Mars, Women Are From Venus clusterfuck to start with,

          and secondly, feminism is not about eradicating differences between males and females. Feminism is about ending male supremacy.

          If you want to posit that the “difference” between males and females is that males are biologically compelled to cause harm to females, well, you may get some agreement with that in separatist circles, but mostly unless you’re adding “and so they should all be kept away from females or killed,” you’ll just get on people’s nerves. If you *do* include the “so they should just be killed” part, you’ll scare the children.

          • isme October 10, 2009 at 3:32 AM #

            LOL!

          • polly styrene October 10, 2009 at 6:38 AM #

            I concur with m’learned friend.

          • Roxie October 10, 2009 at 8:16 AM #

            won’t someone think of the children!?

          • Andrew October 10, 2009 at 5:01 PM #

            Well, that wasn’t what he was doing. He was saying that feminism doesn’t on its face encompass male-male rape. ND explained that it is the feminization, that is the exercise of the power fetish, that is the problem. This masculine impulse is wielded against men and women and therefore is the true object of what feminism is suppose to resist.

            The problem is that most of what encompasses identity politics (social constructs, hierarchy, privilege, etc…) boils down to a “We don’t have power and that is not fair” argument. So then, the rallying cry is almost against human nature itself. I think this is what Dougal was trying to point out…that what felt “wrong” about the message was that it went against the grain of human fiber.

            The other problem is that the groups created do not encompass all of possible members.

            • Nine Deuce October 10, 2009 at 5:04 PM #

              He was doing a bit of derailing. The post wasn’t a referrendum on whether rape is “natural,” it was me highlighting the brilliance of an anonymous author who actually puts the blame for rape where it belongs for a change.

              • Andrew October 10, 2009 at 5:23 PM #

                Rape is invariably the man’s fault. I don’t think that is in dispute.

                Women, for their own sakes, should exercise a lot of caution when they are in vulnerable positions though. There is a reason most rapes occur between acquaintances.

                • Nine Deuce October 10, 2009 at 5:26 PM #

                  No, it isn’t women’s responsibility to prevent men from raping us. It’s men’s responsibility to not rape us. The end.

                  • Andrew October 10, 2009 at 5:42 PM #

                    Next time your out and about tell yourself you don’t see a few girls who could benefit from a lesson in personal safety.

                    Are you about rape prevention or about forcing square ideals into round solutions? If the goal is rape prevention women need to do their part. That is educate themselves and exercise personal responsibility.

                    If you’d rather maintain that women should be as free to make themselves as vulnerable as they like without fear of being raped, then good luck, but you’re not doing anything for the women who actually end up being victimized.

                    • Nine Deuce October 10, 2009 at 7:42 PM #

                      And what are you doing? Telling them it’s their own fault?

                    • Joce Claire October 13, 2009 at 11:21 PM #

                      But if we teach women how to minimize their chances of being raped, won’t that just mean that men will rape other women, the ones who weren’t exposed to the teachings? Also most rapes in America are by people known to the victim, so I’m not sure how helpful “keep away from strangers” is to women.

                • polly styrene October 10, 2009 at 6:37 PM #

                  Women, for their own sakes, should exercise a lot of caution when they are in vulnerable positions though. There is a reason most rapes occur between acquaintances.

                  I agree wholeheartedly Andrew. Women should never, ever have male acquintances. It’s the only way to prevent being raped.

                  • Andrew October 10, 2009 at 8:24 PM #

                    You’re obviously joking (or not, either way) but yes, thats kind of my point. Telling women they need to be careful does not mean if something happens to her it is her fault. Parents tell their children often not to get into cars with strangers, does that mean it’s the child fault if he gets abducted? Don’t be ridiculous.

                    If we are going to discuss things meaningfully we can’t have bright line rules like “Women should never take any precaution to guard against being victimized” simply because it MAY imply that if a woman is victimized it is her fault.

                    Im seriously a little surprised there is this much resistance to the idea. You would think with all the low opinions of men on here feminists would be the first to say “Don’t ever leave your drink alone”, “Always go home with your friends”, “Don’t ever believe he just wants to cuddle”, etc…

                    What advice would you give these women? Live your lives as if the worst won’t happen and if it does embrace your martyrdom?

                    • Nine Deuce October 10, 2009 at 8:25 PM #

                      For every admonition you’ve posted here telling women they need to be more careful, how many have you posted elsewhere telling men not to assault women?

                    • Andrew October 10, 2009 at 8:44 PM #

                      Not “more” careful, just careful. Arguably one can never exercise enough caution.

                      This is the problem. Men who are going to commit these crimes are going to commit these crimes regardless of what they are told. Women who otherwise would be victims might not be if they take affirmative steps to protect themselves. These aren’t admonitions, they are simply what I see as a means to reducing the number of sexual assaults that occur every day.

                    • Nine Deuce October 10, 2009 at 8:57 PM #

                      What about men who think it’s OK to pressure or coerce women into sex? Are you on a message board or blog somewhere telling them not to? Way to not hold men responsible for their actions. These men are going to commit these crimes anyway? OK, then fuck it, let’s just assume we have to tolerate rape. Uh, no.

                    • Andrew October 10, 2009 at 10:20 PM #

                      I don’t think men who would commit rape would benefit from being told it is wrong. This is because these men know it is illegal, and either do not care, or don’t think they will get caught.

                      This does not mean these men are not being held responsible for their actions OR rape is tolerated.

                      You seem to have latched on to this idea that I have to pall around the net telling men not to rape as penance for suggesting women remember that they are not completely powerless to prevent rape. That is simply ridiculous. If you took these discussions seriously I would assume you would respond on the merits. There is really nothing controversial about this.

                    • Nine Deuce October 10, 2009 at 10:26 PM #

                      Women know we need to protect ourselves. We don’t need instructions from you. Your job, if you care about rape, is to tell other men not to assault or coerce women. There are a lot of people who think that this or that coercion tactic is OK. If more men said it wasn’t, it’d be less likely to happen. Men need to tell other men not to take advantage of intoxicated/sleeping women and not to put women in positions in which they don’t feel like they can refuse sex.

                      Do you really think that if we were all to avoid alcohol, drugs, and being alone with male acquaintances forever, that rape would cease? No, because men rape women no matter what women do. The problem is the rape, not our “failure” to prevent it from happening to us.

                    • Roxie October 11, 2009 at 12:04 AM #

                      Seriously, Andrew, it’s not like we EVER fucking forget that. YOU do not need to tell us, ok?

                    • Andrew October 11, 2009 at 12:24 AM #

                      First of all, I wasn’t the one who made a big deal about it.

                      Second, if that is the case then why are so many websites dedicated to telling women EXACTLY that.

                      Third, one of my best girl friends was sexually assaulted, it was much easier to do because she was under the influence. So there is at least ONE woman who could have used my advice.

                    • Nine Deuce October 11, 2009 at 12:29 AM #

                      So if she’d had your advice, she would have been OK? We’re all supposed to curtail our own activities to prevent men from behaving badly? How come you get to go out and get fucked up and we don’t?

                    • Andrew October 11, 2009 at 12:55 AM #

                      Im just saying when it comes to personal safety one should not assume the world is a warm, forgiving place. One bad night can really change a life, and while, ideally, women should be allowed to have just as a good a time as men, they are more vulnerable and this has consequences.

                      There is consequences for men too. Men are often beaten, robbed, etc. when they are under the influence. The consequence is not as dire as rape, but they should take care of themselves all the same.

                      I understand you do not want to victim blame. I do not want to victim blame either. I can not victim blame if there are no victims, which would be the goal of a vigilant female population.

                      We would all benefit from an explosion of free love in young-adult society, I have no interest in keeping women scared to come home with me.

                      Maybe the question should be how do we promote women’s safety effectively without leading to victim blaming? I think it’s a good question thats worth exploring. Like I said, I do not have all the answers.

                    • Nine Deuce October 11, 2009 at 12:58 AM #

                      Educate men. Eradicate porn culture, which teaches young people that women are there for the using. Create real consequences for men who rape, even if that includes reworking our legal systems and its philosophical bases (which are not divine revelation, despite what the white males whose interests it protects think), etc.

                      I just know that the solution isn’t to further curtail women’s freedom. That’s what rape is for, putting women in their place. I’ll not be doing the patriarchy’s work for it by hiding in my house, and I’ll not listen to anyone who claims that it’s my responsibility to do so.

                    • Andrew October 11, 2009 at 1:06 AM #

                      Please don’t demonize my position. Telling women they should learn self defense, not get shit faced drunk, not be afraid to tell a man they are not interested or don’t want to be coerced into fellating him are not the equivalent of hiding in your house. If I was a woman saying this there would not even be a controversy.

                      I favor AFFIRMATIVE responsibility, that is, steps that further empower a woman in her role. I would not impose a culture of fear on women, there is to much of that in the world already.

                    • Nine Deuce October 11, 2009 at 1:58 AM #

                      Yes there would be a controversy. I don’t allow women to place the blame for men’s behavior on women either. Look around my comments and I’m sure you’ll see that. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for a woman to have to alter her behavior to prevent rape. I’m not talking about practicalities, because we all know what the world is really like, but rather in ethics. Men should not get to use rape to keep women in their place. I’m done talking about this.

                    • Faith October 11, 2009 at 1:05 PM #

                      “I would not impose a culture of fear on women, there is to much of that in the world already.”

                      THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE DOING.

                    • Faith October 11, 2009 at 1:03 PM #

                      “If I was a woman saying this there would not even be a controversy. ”

                      The hell there wouldn’t be. I call out women for victim-blaming bullshit just as quickly as a man. I have no doubt that 9-2 would, and likely does, do the same.

                    • syndicalist702 October 13, 2009 at 4:00 PM #

                      Men should avoid getting shitfaced drunk, too, as anyone will be more vulnerable to getting mugged/raped/wev when they’re incapacitated.

                      The self-defense/environmental awareness applies to everyone, not just women. Besides, to discuss this at all misses the point, since women are more likely to be victimized than men – regardless of how they act, what they wear, how much they drink, with whom they associate, etc. There’s a reason for that, which I think 9-2 and the other women in here are trying to nail into your thick skull.

                    • Faith October 11, 2009 at 1:01 PM #

                      “I do not want to victim blame either.”

                      Then stop fucking doing it.

                    • Faith October 11, 2009 at 1:00 PM #

                      “Second, if that is the case then why are so many websites dedicated to telling women EXACTLY that. ”

                      Because we live in a misogynistic society that refuses to put the onus of responsibility for preventing rape on men. We live in a society which quite intentionally tries to metaphorically erase men from the equation in order to force women into a position of submission.

                      “Third, one of my best girl friends was sexually assaulted, it was much easier to do because she was under the influence. So there is at least ONE woman who could have used my advice.”

                      If the person in question wanted to assault her, he would have done whether she was shitfaced or stone cold sober. Women get raped when we are sober, drunk, sleeping, or even dead, for fuck’s sake. There is no activity in which women are currently safe from being raped by men except for avoiding men altogether. Becoming a separatist who avoids men at all costs is the only conceivable way to avoid being raped. Even that isn’t absolutely safe if men decide to go after those women in order to attempt to put them in their place, so to speak.

                    • Linda October 13, 2009 at 4:11 PM #

                      Andrew,
                      If it were your neice or sister or daughter, would you have the same reply?

                    • Andrew October 13, 2009 at 5:32 PM #

                      If the woman was related to me she would hear quite often about how she should and shouldn’t act based on the probability she might be assaulted because of it.

                      I wouldn’t beat a dead horse and tell her she should have done something differently if she were raped. If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently. Whether or not she should have to is a different question. I doubt many women are willing to risk their safety just to prove this point.

                      I think the point is moot if the woman has been raped. There is no point in repeating the obvious. Like children though, women who haven’t had a bad experience might think they are invulnerable, and this advice could conceivably help them. It is not inherently harmful advice.

                      Thats all.

                    • Nine Deuce October 13, 2009 at 5:43 PM #

                      Like children? Unbelievable. How about this: I’ve had bad experiences, but I still refuse to allow the threat of rape to curtail my freedom as a human being. So if I get attacked, will I deserve an I-told-you-so?

                    • Andrew October 13, 2009 at 5:51 PM #

                      I only used children because of the wide repute that they believe they are invincible.

                      As for you, you recognize the risk of your actions. You make an educated decision regarding your autonomy. For most women that choice is not clear and it is not made intelligently. It is made in light of the best case scenario, not the worst.

                    • Nine Deuce October 13, 2009 at 5:53 PM #

                      What gives you the absurd idea that women aren’t aware of the danger men pose? Trust me, we all know. We’ve been told every second since we were born to be afraid all the time. See my post entitled “Going Outside Unsupervised.”

                    • Andrew October 13, 2009 at 5:57 PM #

                      This isn’t something I can prove, or can be disproved. Suffice it to say that I have seen women do things that I don’t think they would have had they known the possible danger they were in.

                      We are free to disagree about this, but assuming I am right that these women exist, I think my logic is valid.

                    • copykatparis October 22, 2009 at 7:25 PM #

                      WE. KNOW. THIS. We ALWAYS know we’re in danger. And as for “women do[ing] things that I don’t think they would have had they known the possible danger they were in.” — you mean things like: working late; going outside; hanging out with friends; getting married; having a boyfriend/
                      father/male relative/brother/lover/co-worker; doing laundry IN BROAD DAY in a laundromat;

                      I could go on.

                      ANY one of these actions can and has resulted in rape. The possibility for rape exists for us CONSTANTLY, not just because we take a dark alley, get wasted, or walk through a bad neighbourhood.

                      Please try to understand this.

                    • isme October 11, 2009 at 4:23 AM #

                      “There is really nothing controversial about this.”

                      There is in the case of rape, for two reasons I can see.

                      Firstly, if women (or for that matter, any “minority” group) are obliged to take special precautions that men don’t have to worry about, they become second class citizens. The problem is, however, that women ARE second class citizens, who do have to take special precautions that men don’t.

                      Secondly, the idea of personal responsibility is impossible to disentangle from victim blaming. Normally, that isn’t so much of a problem, but rape is overburdened with victim blaming as it is.

                      It also happens to be a hugely emotive topic, one that does not lend itself to a dispassionate debate. I tend to agree with what you are saying, but their are quite a few important implications.

                    • Faith October 11, 2009 at 12:56 PM #

                      “You seem to have latched on to this idea that I have to pall around the net telling men not to rape as penance for suggesting women remember that they are not completely powerless to prevent rape.”

                      Actually, yes, women are completely powerless to prevent being raped. I have absolutely no control over whether someone decides to rape me. The argument is patently absurd. Rape is a violent crime that is -forced- on an individual. If there were some way for women to stop rape, we would have done it already. The only people who have the power to stop rape, or murder, or wars, or any other violent abusive act are the ones committing the violent acts. The onus of responsibility for preventing these crimes is on the perpetrator.

                    • Joce Claire October 13, 2009 at 11:31 PM #

                      I think a lot of men don’t know what rape is, or that it’s wrong. The first man who raped me, the brother of a good friend, told my friend that he hoped I wasn’t claiming he had “taken advantage of me.” Later on I learned he’d actually been convicted of multiple rapes, and gone on to rape a 14-year-old girl later that summer.

                      I also know a lot of times men think that if they get a woman drunk, or keep pushing her and pushing her until she gives up, or guilt or manipulate her into sexual acts, that’s the same as free consent. And you hear plenty of times men thinking that a women has consented to sex because she kissed him or was alone with him or dressed a certain way or whatever excuse he can come up with. I don’t think it’s nearly as clear-cut as you want it to be.

                      I also know women who, as children, were sexually abused by slightly older boys. I’m sure the boys, now men, chalk it up to “youthful experimentation,” but the women still suffer from it years later.

                    • wiggles October 12, 2009 at 2:32 AM #

                      Most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. So, by your logic, polly styrene’s point is correct. In the interest of their personal safety, women and girls should have no male acquaintances, partners, spouses, or family members.

                • Joan Kelly October 13, 2009 at 9:02 PM #

                  “Rape is invariably the man’s fault. I don’t think that is in dispute.”

                  You don’t think that is in dispute…where? Here? Or within yourself? In the world at large? Because seriously, that statement shows a gross misunderstanding of what is and isn’t in dispute about rape.

            • polly styrene October 10, 2009 at 6:42 PM #

              oh FFS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HUMAN NATURE.

              how many times???????

  13. polly styrene October 11, 2009 at 6:17 AM #

    Not “more” careful, just careful. Arguably one can never exercise enough caution.

    Please don’t demonize my position. Telling women they should learn self defense, not get shit faced drunk, not be afraid to tell a man they are not interested or don’t want to be coerced into fellating him are not the equivalent of hiding in your house. If I was a woman saying this there would not even be a controversy.

    You see Andrew here’s the thing. I’ve never learned self defence. I frequently get shit faced drunk, but I have never been raped. Why is this?

    I’ve never been in the company of a rapist. Since the majority of rapes are committed by a partner or ex partner, I attribute this happy rapist avoiding state to being a lesbian, and never having had a male partner.

    So what you appear to be saying Andrew is that all women should be lesbians. Either that or all heterosexual women should be celibate, or never be alone with a man at the very least. Probably best to hire some security guards if you’re even thinking of dating a male I reckon.

  14. Gobliness October 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM #

    I have read through the threads above and I feel I need to say something in Andrews defense. I am a woman who has been violated by a man. I totally agree with Andrew that there were things I could have done to perhaps prevent this. I willingly put myself in a vulnerable position, ALONE with this person. I do not believe that this person would have sought me out to do this…I made myself convenient. This person had no right to do what he did under ANY circumstances and did not get away with it. However, I ignored what we are taught about staying in groups etc. despite my better judgment. No, women should not HAVE to be so worried about how they conduct themselves because in an ideal world there would be no desire to rape. Reality is different. We can take precautions. A rapist who will break into peoples homes or pull people into alleys etc. could not be prevented in this way…but we can prevent what happened to me. I do not blame myself for this persons actions but I do know that in future I will take my own precautions much more seriously.

    • Faith October 12, 2009 at 3:34 PM #

      “I willingly put myself in a vulnerable position, ALONE with this person.”

      Women are in a vulnerable position whenever there is a man present in our current society. That you were violated by a man who took advantage of you is in no way your fault. I was sexually assaulted by a man as well whom I willingly allowed myself to be alone with. There was nothing I could do to stop the event from occurring. He intentionally preyed upon me. Stating that there is some way that I could have prevented this from occurring takes the responsibility for what occurred off of the perpetrator’s shoulders and puts it squarely on mine.

      This is nothing short of victim-blaming. There is nothing women can do to stop rape.

      I will keep repeating this as often as I must until people finally figure out that there is -nothing- women can do to prevent being raped or otherwise victimized.

    • polly styrene October 12, 2009 at 4:33 PM #

      No one would argue against taking sensible precautions for one’s personal safety, for example not getting into an unlicensed taxi, or taking badly lit short cuts at night. But unless a woman is never going to be alone with a man ever – which is hardly a realistic prospect for most women outside of convents, you really can’t prevent rape by avoiding rapists.

      The point is that hetero/bisexual women, if they want to get to know a man better with romantic intentions, will have to be alone with him at some point. They will also have male sexual partners. Most women, whatever their sexual orientation, will often have male friends, coworkers, men who come to fix the plumbing who they end up alone with. Are we meant to avoid ALL these situations?

      And though you don’t describe what happened to you, I know women who’ve gone back to the homes of men they’ve just met, got drunk/taken drugs, and not been raped. Because those particular men weren’t rapists.

      I’m sorry about your experience, but does it really make you feel better to think that you should somehow have taken precautions to stop it happening? I doubt it, so why would you want other women to feel the same? Most women who are raped, are raped by men they know and trust. Rapists look just like normal men because they are normal men. There is no way of telling that that seemingly nice man isn’t a rapist. Sorry.

  15. Dougal October 12, 2009 at 3:50 PM #

    Andrew correctly explained my post. Thank you.

  16. syndicalist702 October 12, 2009 at 4:50 PM #

    This is a good one. Have you seen the Schrödinger’s Rapist one?

    born-stubborn.livejournal.com/467172.html

    • isme October 13, 2009 at 3:31 AM #

      I had…it was very good.

  17. syndicalist702 October 12, 2009 at 4:52 PM #

    I like this list. Have you seen Schrödinger’s Rapist?

    born-stubborn.livejournal.com/467172.html

  18. syndicalist702 October 12, 2009 at 4:53 PM #

    I’m a dumbass. I posted the same thing twice, didn’t I?

  19. Dougal October 12, 2009 at 5:12 PM #

    I’ve enjoyed this thread and the discussions. Thank you for posting my thoughts. I end with an addition to list: (11) If you tell someone not to assault a someone else, they will tell ten more not to assault someone else. Good advertising!

  20. Urashk October 13, 2009 at 1:39 PM #

    I am a man, and I follow all of these rules without compromise. All of my (male) friends follow these rules without compromise. I do not condone rape in any way shape or form.
    Having said that, I also do not take shortcuts through areas that make me nervous, I drink moderately and responsibly in public areas, and I use licensed taxis if I cannot use a private vehicle. Is this simply because I am old? (I am in my 30′s)

    • Nine Deuce October 13, 2009 at 2:06 PM #

      If you failed to do one of those things and got mugged, who would be to blame for the mugging? If you did follow those precautions and still got mugged, who would be at fault? But besides that, what do you think the difference is between mugging and rape?

  21. Joan Kelly October 13, 2009 at 8:58 PM #

    “If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently.”

    If the “something differently” you refer to is to avoid males entirely, as some others have suggested is the best and only actual way to avoid rape, then yes. Or if the “something differently” you refer to is “killed the fucker while attempted rape was in progress,” then yes, god willing.

    But if the “something differently” is anything other than those two things, you are a horrible, horrible person.

    I might add that as you are male, the best way for any female relatives of yours to safely avoid rape would not be to heed your advise about what they should and shouldn’t do, but to avoid your horrible male self entirely. Odds being what they are and all.

    • syndicalist702 October 13, 2009 at 9:15 PM #

      Or if the “something differently” you refer to is “killed the fucker while attempted rape was in progress,” then yes, god willing.

      Can you say CCW? Oh yeah!

      • Joan Kelly October 13, 2009 at 9:18 PM #

        I don’t know what CCW stands for?

        • syndicalist702 October 14, 2009 at 2:50 PM #

          Sorry. It’s the acronym used in most states in reference to a permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon.

  22. Tomecat October 14, 2009 at 2:31 AM #

    As for you, you recognize the risk of your actions. You make an educated decision regarding your autonomy. For most women that choice is not clear and it is not made intelligently.

    Wow. Statistics? Evidence?

    Never mind, you have clearly decided already that you are biologically and logically superior to women, and that you need to “help” us. Thanks anyway, but you’re the problem. Maybe not a rapist yourself, but certainly an apologist.

    • Faith October 14, 2009 at 11:39 AM #

      “Maybe not a rapist yourself, but certainly an apologist.”

      With his attitude, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to discover that he is a rapist himself.

    • Andrew October 14, 2009 at 3:13 PM #

      You know, when people visit New Orleans, the first thing they get handed is a map of the city with 3/4ths of it crossed out, and they are told not to go there. Why do you think that is? It is for their own safety. It is because these people do not know the city and might get lured away from the safer places, on purpose, beaten, raped, robbed, or killed. Would you say that the person telling them where to go is part of the problem? Is telling them not to go there some sort of restriction on sovereignty that should not be tolerated that makes the muggers, rapists, and killers first class citizens over the tourists?

      Do I need statistics? Under the theories that float around this board, it is clear from the majority of women who participate in the patriarchy that they are not fully aware of the influence men have over them.

      Is it really far fetched to think that the women on a rad-fem board may be more aware, on guard, and alert than say…oh the women dressing up their dogs in skirts?

      As for implications, the language I am using is definitely more empowering to women than subscribing to a notion that men dictate whether or not you will be violated.

      • Tomecat October 14, 2009 at 5:10 PM #

        If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently.

        and

        …the language I am using is definitely more empowering to women than subscribing to a notion that men dictate whether or not you will be violated.

        No, it’s not. Are you really suggesting that all rapes could be avoided if only the women had done something differently?
        As others have said, the only sure way to avoid being raped is to isolate one’s self from all possible rapists. Not only a lousy way to live, but also virtually impossible.
        Most people (men and women) take reasonable precautions most of the time, but some situations are unavoidable–and even if I choose to do something that you (as sole arbiter of dangerousness) consider risky, the blame does not shift from the rapist to the rapee. No one should have to live in fear. We already live in a near constant state of vigilance; and your insistence that women shoulder the bulk of the blame for their own rapes victimizes them twice.

        • Faith October 14, 2009 at 5:55 PM #

          “…the language I am using is definitely more empowering to women than subscribing to a notion that men dictate whether or not you will be violated.”

          It’s always so glorious when a man tells a bunch of women what will empower them.

          It’s not like we might know more about what is or is not empowering for our very own selves or anything.

      • Nine Deuce October 14, 2009 at 5:29 PM #

        Even women who dress their dogs up as cheerleaders have been told since they were born to be afraid all the time. We know, dude, we don’t need to be told.

      • Faith October 14, 2009 at 5:48 PM #

        “As for implications, the language I am using is definitely more empowering to women than subscribing to a notion that men dictate whether or not you will be violated.”

        Women get raped by their husbands. Do you instruct women to not get married?

        Women get raped by their boyfriends. Do you instruct them to stop having boyfriends?

        Women get raped by their fathers. Do you instruct them to stop being daughters?

        Women get raped by their male friends. Do you instruct them to stop being friends with anyone with a penis?

        Women get raped by their own sons. Do you instruct them to stop being mothers?

        Women get raped by their brothers. Do you instruct them to to stop being sisters?

        Women get raped while sleeping. Do you instruct them to stop sleeping?

        Women get raped while exercising. Do you instruct them to stop exercising?

        Women get raped while walking. Do you instruct women to stop walking?

        Women get raped while working. Do you instruct them to stop working?

        Women get raped while dead. Do you instruct them to stop dying?

        Women get raped while going to school. Do you instruct them to stop going to school?

        Men rape women while women are engaging in virtually any and every possible activity. Since it’s clearly not registering in your brain: There is no activity that is safe for women to avoid rape aside from avoiding men.

        Do you instruct women to avoid men under all circumstances? Do you even realize how virtually impossible that would be for a woman to do even if she wanted to do so?

        • Andrew October 14, 2009 at 8:30 PM #

          Women get raped by making bad decisions. Do I instruct women to stop making bad decisions?

          Yes.

          • Nine Deuce October 14, 2009 at 10:11 PM #

            No, women get raped by men.

            • Faith October 14, 2009 at 10:19 PM #

              “No, women get raped by men.”

              Who make the decision to rape them. Unlike the woman, who is not making the decision to get raped.

      • polly styrene October 14, 2009 at 6:20 PM #

        Oh Andrew: you know those dangerous places you’re not meant to go to, I’ve gone to them. Not new Orleans, because I’m not from America but I’ve lived in Brixton, Peckham, Moss Side. And I’m still in one piece.

        Which bit of “rapists are normal men and you can’t avoid rapists for sure unless you avoid ALL MEN” do you not understand?

        And you know what I may be more knowledgeable than some women, though I would hardly want to characterize anyone on what they dress up their dog in. Because I know the statistics behind the bullshit, I know the man most likely to rape you is a sexual partner or ex-sexual partner, not some stranger who jumps on you in the street.

        Now for the five hundredth time Andrew, you appear to be advocating that women become separatists. There are many women who might agree with you, but that IS what you’re advocating.

        • Andrew October 14, 2009 at 8:29 PM #

          New Orleans is kind of a different story, but thats a another can of worms.

          Anyway, I know that not ALL women can avoid being raped ALL the time. What I do know is that SOME women can avoid SOME rapes by exercising SOME caution, and that SOME of these women don’t.

          I am not advocating anything separatist. Avoiding letting someone buy you a drink, walk you home, come over drunk, does not equate to not having a boyfriend or a husband.

          Hypothetical: Lets pretend a woman volunteered to spend a night alone in a house with a convicted rapist. If she is raped, what level of sympathy is the woman entitled to?

          • Nine Deuce October 14, 2009 at 10:13 PM #

            That’s fucking absurd. Try a real-life situation. Any anyway, she’d be entitled to the same sympathy as anyone else who had been raped.

          • polly styrene October 15, 2009 at 7:20 PM #

            But Andrew you are ignoring the statistics (which I accidentally posted in the post above, but here they are again).

            Only 8% of women who are raped are raped by a stranger.

            56% of women who are raped are raped by a partner or ex partner.

            Most women who are raped are raped in their own home.

            33% of women who are raped have been drinking. Which means 66% haven’t.

            Therefore by FAR THE BIGGEST RISK for rape is to have a boyfriend or husband who lives with you. By far the biggest. And you stand less chance of being raped when you have been drinking than when you haven’t .

            Though I suggest you don’t send your kids to church either.

            http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8309265.stm

            • Andrew October 15, 2009 at 7:58 PM #

              Obviously we could almost all rape by ridding the world of men. The separatist argument works to. I just don’t think these are very reasonable.

              Just because my advice has a limited application though does not mean it should not be heeded.

              Jamie Leigh Jones is a perfect example of this as she was slipped a date rape drug and gang raped in what can easily be described as one of the worst cases I’ve ever read.

              Am I blaming her for her assault? No, absolutely not. Do I think it could have been prevented if she had refused the drink. I am not sure. Would she have definitely stood a better chance of fighting off these men sober. Yes.

              It is what it is, but what it is not is victim blaming.

              • Nine Deuce October 15, 2009 at 9:38 PM #

                There is no point in even discussing whether she was sober. There is no point in discussing ANYTHING that a rape victim was doing. All there is to discuss is the behavior of rapists. Our energy needs to be directed toward modifying the behavior of rapists, not women.

                • polly styrene October 16, 2009 at 6:30 AM #

                  Well you’ve convinced me Andrew. I intend to spend the rest of my life cowering in a locked room alone, definitely not drinking – just in case – and certainly not going to work, since last night for instance I was the only person in the building with the computer engineer, who could have been a rapist for all I knew.

                  Question (is there any point really?). Do you not think that a date rape drug could have been put in a soft drink? Or do you think women should just never drink anything at all just to be on the safe side and die of dehydration instead?

                • polly styrene October 16, 2009 at 6:31 AM #

                  And personally I think it’s very reasonable to suggest women should avoid sexual relationships with men. I do, but you’d never catch me giving up drinking.

                  • polly styrene October 18, 2009 at 12:29 PM #

                    No you see, Andrew you’re missing the point YET AGAIN.

                    I WOULDN’T tell women to avoid relationships with men, because other people’s lives are none of my business. What I think is reasonable might not be reasonable for someone else – geddit?

                    (note to self, avoid sarcasm that’s obviously just too subtle).

                    You think it is “reasonable” to instruct women to not get drunk, not to walk home alone, and not to go home with dudes they’ve just met.

                    Millions of women disagree with you Andrew, and it’s THEIR life, not yours. What YOU might view as a reasonable precaution, THEY see as a big infringement of the way they want to live their lives.

                    Now, we could all avoid risk indefinitely, by never driving, never going up ladders, never using power tools, never eating foods with saturated fats etc, etc, etc.

                    Now it’s not up to me to dictate what risks other people take Andrew, as long as they’re not harming others, and it’s not up to you either.

              • Faith October 16, 2009 at 12:03 PM #

                “Would she have definitely stood a better chance of fighting off these men sober. Yes.”

                Not likely. The average woman has enough difficulty fighting off one man, much less multiple men. Aside from the fact that being intoxicated will make it even harder for a woman to get a conviction, being intoxicated while being raped could actually be a blessing in a certain respect. Alcohol dulls the senses and memory. If I were to wind up gang raped, I actually hope I’m shitfaced drunk that way I have some hope of not remembering at least parts of it.

                • polly styrene October 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM #

                  Well no doubt Andrew would approve of:

                  - anti rape lip gloss, a mere £9.99

                  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1220848/The-anti-rape-lipgloss-helps-protect-women-drink-spiking.html

                  • Andrew October 17, 2009 at 7:13 PM #

                    I think its a fine idea, but you could take it a step further. They could create a product, maybe a tasteless kind of (safe) chemical agent, like food dye, that bars buy and place in every drink. If GHB or something similar is added, it should react and change the color of the drink. (Or make it foam or create some sort of warning, or even make it taste really bad).

                    But yea, I do approve. Do you not?

                    • polly styrene October 17, 2009 at 9:14 PM #

                      No I think it’s an extremely cynical and exploitative bit of marketing, capitalising on the fear of ‘drug rape’. The lip gloss has actually got nothing to do with the strips that ‘detect’ date rape drugs, it’s just bog standard lip gloss, of the type you could buy much cheaper than £9.99, and the strips are an additional extra. So why do you need the lip gloss? If the strips work that is.

                      And I buy my own drinks in bars anyway, or my friends do, and you have to watch them anyway to make sure nobody nicks them. Which is a much easier precaution actually than going out laden down like you’re on CSI.

                      Again this is expecting women to use baroque measures to ‘protect’ themselves from what is in reality an extremely small risk – most women who are given ‘spiked’ drinks are given them by people they know and trust, not strangers.

                    • polly styrene October 17, 2009 at 10:41 PM #

                      You see Andrew, what we are talking about here, is risk assessment, or if you prefer, cost benefit analysis.

                      Male rape happens, but I have never, ever, seen anyone, anywhere advise males how to avoid being raped. Men, particularly men aged 16-25 are actually much, much more likely to be the targets of street violence than women. Usually alcohol is implicated. But I’ve never yet seen a campaign telling men not to drink in case they end up in a fight.

                      Has anyone ever thought about the safety of their teenage son when they go out on the town, and warned them to be careful, and not walk home alone? I don’t know but I doubt it.

                      Road traffic accident are the leading cause of death in under 25′s.

                      http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2007/pr17/en/index.html

                      Are you under 25 Andrew, or do you have any friends that are? Do you avoid driving, or tell your young friends to avoid driving?

                      But you are obsessed, I use the word advisedly, with telling women how to avoid a small risk of stranger rape, and ignore the fact that ACTUALLY the best way a woman can avoid rape is to not have male sexual partners, because hey – that might impinge on male rights to female bodies, and we can’t have that, can we?

                    • Andrew October 18, 2009 at 12:40 AM #

                      Well, a few things in response. The article left me with the impression the lip gloss was essential…not just a perk.

                      Anyway, I’m glad you take some precaution; but I never said it was a cure-all, or that it would go a long way in fixing anything.

                      Men are also advised against male rape. It used to a very common joke when I was younger to tell someone not to “drop the soap” in a locker room or prison. Prison rape is actually something men are *very* scared of, for the record. Thankfully it open happens in prisons for the most part. I was also floored one time when my friend went up to have a drink with a random gay guy off the street at 4 in the morning…after he was already drunk. I was equally surprised nothing happened to him.

                      Drunk fighting is also a huge issue among men, for what it’s worth. It’s the reason every club/bar has a bouncer and in the UK they passed some law aimed at reducing the drunk fighting that was happening in/ around their bars.

                      I actually just turned 25 (Happy Birthday to me) so that was funny. I don’t tell people to not drive but I do think/tell them that they should be careful.

                      But the point of your argument seems to be that I am all for rape prevention unless it infringes on my “right to a womans body”. Well guess what, I think you should try and tell women not to have sex with men. I would even agree it’s probably safe. I am fairly confident though that it wouldn’t have an effect on anything because most women like having sex with men.

                      See, the difference between the idea that woman should cover their bases when their most vulnerable and the idea that woman should never have contact with men is clear. The former is easy, doable, and doesn’t require anything but a little bit of caution. The latter is boring, burdensome, strange, and unrealistic. Since both help women but one is a little bit out there, I think mine will win out in the end.

                      What I still don’t understand is why anyone has a problem with this. Should I just not have said it? If so, why? Should I not warn my female friends about these things if I see them acting recklessly…? Come on.

                      I feel like my idea is akin to teaching children how to use birth control, whereas the others on here want a rigid sort of abstinence only education. Kids fuck either way, and have babies, but with birth control and education at least some have a shot at getting their lives back.

                      My comment only suggested vulnerable women take precautions. The opposite can only mean that one would think vulnerable women should not take precautions. That is silly.

                    • isme October 19, 2009 at 12:35 PM #

                      “But I’ve never yet seen a campaign telling men not to drink in case they end up in a fight.”

                      Well, not specifically that, but a campaign to warn people (particularly young people) of the dangers of drinking which included something along the lines of “X% of all hospitalisations are alcohol related” (or was it “X many alcohol related hospitalisations of young people a week”?)

                      Nobody protested that telling people what to do in regards to alcohol consumption was an attack on their rights.

                      But I’ve never yet seen a campaign telling men not to drink in case they end up in a fight.

                      “Has anyone ever thought about the safety of their teenage son when they go out on the town, and warned them to be careful, and not walk home alone? I don’t know but I doubt it. ”

                      Um…if they weren’t utterly crap parents, wouldn’t the answer be a flat out “yes”?

                      Yes, having to avoid doing things because of the dangers involved is limiting a person’s rights, but there has always been a big difference between the rights someone has and the rights they are actually able to claim.

      • polly styrene October 14, 2009 at 6:58 PM #

        And on a side note, please stop using the term ‘violated’. Not only is it something that belongs in a
        Victorian novel, that I have never heard anyone IRL use, it has IMHO very offensive overtones. Of being ‘despoiled’ losing ‘honour’ etc.

  23. Turk October 17, 2009 at 4:25 AM #

    I. Love. This.

    At my college, we got lectured at about Sex and Consent. I didn’t mind because the lecture was funny, informative, and the lecturer actually went on to talk about women and how much they’re objectified and that this is why they are more commonly victims of rape, as well as that men are made to be manly and aggressive.

    If she had done something like this, though, it would have been hilarious and amazing.

  24. dudealicious October 21, 2009 at 12:17 AM #

    woah. do you ever miss the point, sir. how many have to point out your arrogance for you to hear them? perhaps you think men do not listen to what they’re pointedly told (especially by women) for a reason?
    and why do you keep coming back? to reassert the same argument, when people keep telling you women know how to “protect” themselves, that’s not the point.
    you walk up in here with a privilege sagely dolling out obvious advice about something you know nothing about. if you had one ounce of humility you could admit that. goddamn, we can hardly know our own experience but certainly, someone with a privilege cannot claim to know what it’s like to be on the other side. seeing a few movies, reading a few books, even knowing survivors doesn’t change one’s day-to-day experience, come on.
    do you have other privileges you push around in peoples faces? how are you received then?
    the reality is, if you are so concerned with being one of the good guys, you will educate men, starting with yourself. you will LISTEN when people tell you that you’re actin’ a fool in a world you know nothing about. you will stop justifying and making excuses. you will think about people you know who have been sexually assaulted – can you count on one hand how many you do know about? have you been there for them when they were having a panic attack or crying in the middle of the night? what have you said to them and how have they responded?
    you will imagine what it’s like to be afraid to walk home. to second guess asking a friend you’ve known for years to hang out alone. (does fear make you feel like drinking less? you’d be a better man than most.)
    you will talk to the women closest to you. that’s right, i’m for real. your mother, sisters, aunts, grandmothers. about their experiences. about why you are so defensive. why you can’t stop coming back to this site and justifying, excusing. saying women are like children. (come on, at this stage in this thread you could censor yourself. or admit that you don’t want to.) or shit like this: “If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently.”
    you will talk to the men around you about this. honestly. with humility. you will no longer post a single excuse or justification on this site. anything you post will be thoughtful and humble. if you really care. think you care. but i am betting you will be curiously silent from now on.
    if you hear any of this you will wonder why you needed to hear it from another man. maybe you will realize the irony, since this is over a computer. then, perhaps we can begin to talk about gender.

    • Nine Deuce October 21, 2009 at 1:34 AM #

      Amen to that.

    • Andrew October 21, 2009 at 2:01 AM #

      This isn’t “my fight” by any means. I responded to people who responded my comments. My initial comment was less than probably 15 words, hardly sagacious advice.

      I was never concerned with being a good guy, I don’t consider myself good. I think it’s arbitrary.

      I also didn’t compare women to children with any sort of disparaging intent. In fact, the inference was drawn by the readers here. I never said it quite that way. I was actually making that point to illustrate that it is in fact, not the fault of the child (or woman), when something bad happens to them.

      As for saying that woman would wish they would have done something differently after meeting unfortunate circumstances, I don’t see how this is controversial. If I were mugged, assaulted, or (god forbid) raped in a certain part of town, or by a certain person, you can bet that I would wish I had done something different.

      The argument seems to be that women already know these things. To that I have two responses. (1) Why then is it so controversial? And (2) If women already know these things, then why do so many rapes which could be easily prevented by the woman happen? (While these might not be in the majority, which is arguable, they definitely still occur)

      As for your argument that I don’t have any idea what I’m talking about. That is foolish. While I may not live my life in a woman’s shoes, there are things I fear and sexual assault is definitely one of them. Could you imagine the horror I’d be in if I faced a prison sentence? I would be terrified. But you would bet I would undertake some sort of precaution.

      As for your argument about privilege, I am holding back. Partly because I don’t see how my argument reeks of any privilege. (There was a commentator, a victim of sexual assault, who agreed that woman should do things different if they are in a bad situation, as she wishes she would have). And also partly because I don’t even know for certain what it means. I would like to respond more squarely on the merits, but can’t because the term seems to mean different things to different people, and I am not sure how you’re using it.

      • isme October 21, 2009 at 8:28 AM #

        “The argument seems to be that women already know these things. To that I have two responses. (1) Why then is it so controversial?”

        Personally I’m not so clear on that, but can we just accept that it is? You are not going to convince other posters that women should exercise personal responsibility to avoid being raped.

        “And (2) If women already know these things, then why do so many rapes which could be easily prevented by the woman happen? (While these might not be in the majority, which is arguable, they definitely still occur)”

        Why do so many other easily preventable things occur? All it takes is one or two bad decisions and some bad luck for something nasty to happen. People know that certain things are risky because people do them and bad things happen because of it.

      • Faith October 21, 2009 at 12:25 PM #

        “(There was a commentator, a victim of sexual assault, who agreed that woman should do things different if they are in a bad situation, as she wishes she would have).”

        There are plenty of women who have been victimized by men who feel that it was somehow their fault and that they could have done something differently to stop the act from occurring. Why? Because they have had assholes like you telling them from birth that if they get raped, it’s their fault. They asked for it. They got drunk. They shouldn’t have talked to that man and expected to be able to trust him. They really wanted it anyway, etc. etc. etc.

        Oddly enough, I have been sexually assaulted on several different occasions. I’ve never once felt that if I had only done something differently, it wouldn’t have happened. Why? Because I have enough respect for and confidence in myself to understand that I did nothing wrong. I have enough confidence in myself to put the blame where the blame belongs: Firmly on the shoulders of the men who attacked and abused me.

  25. polly styrene October 22, 2009 at 8:56 PM #

    Safest to not breathe really. Though you’re still not guaranteed safe from rape though.

  26. winter_lights October 23, 2009 at 9:14 PM #

    Joce Claire wrote:
    “But if we teach women how to minimize their chances of being raped, won’t that just mean that men will rape other women, the ones who weren’t exposed to the teachings?”

    Sounds about what like I’ve been thinking.

    From what I can tell, there are things that one can do to make oneself less likely to be the target of a stranger rapist (which are, as noted many places, actually pretty rare), but that doesn’t stop the rapist from committing rape. It just means that they’ll be raping one person instead of another.

    It -might- have some value from a standpoint of self-interest, but I don’t see it accomplishing anything reducing the amount of rape that takes place in society as a whole.

    • isme October 24, 2009 at 3:51 AM #

      Sounds alot like what my mother would said way back when…about how you can’t stop it happening, but you can stop yourself being a target.

      Mind you, it would decrease opportunistic rapes…not being a rapist I don’t know, but wouldn’t many stranger rapes be purely opportunistic?

      • winter_lights October 24, 2009 at 5:20 AM #

        I’m not really sure myself. I’ve heard that many stranger rapists are also repeat rapists. If that’s the case I’d expect one who doesn’t find what they consider a suitable victim will just keep looking and/or start taking more risks. So it’d probably even out over time. I could be missing something here though, but… I can’t really come up with a way where there would be a statistically significant decrease in the overall number of rapes. Especially with stranger rape being the more rare kind and all.

        Side note: Is there something weird going on with the comment sorting? I’m not really sure why my first one in this thread would have ended up where it did.

        • isme October 24, 2009 at 11:03 AM #

          “I’ve heard that many stranger rapists are also repeat rapists. If that’s the case I’d expect one who doesn’t find what they consider a suitable victim will just keep looking and/or start taking more risks.”

          Possibly, though I’d have thought that the kind of person that opportunistically rapes a woman once is going to again if the opportunity comes up.

          “I can’t really come up with a way where there would be a statistically significant decrease in the overall number of rapes. Especially with stranger rape being the more rare kind and all.”

          Statistically significant, no, but any decrease is still something.

          “Side note: Is there something weird going on with the comment sorting?”

          Been like that for a while, on and off.

  27. Valley November 24, 2009 at 4:46 AM #

    Andrew-

    Let’s say I do everything you suggest to help prevent me from being a target (never take a drink from a stranger, never walk alone after dark, never wear a short skirt, never act too flirtatious with a strange man) and my best friend in the world rapes me, what should I have done differently?

    Or lets say I am walking down the street with my husband after dark and we decide to go down an alley and he pushes me against the wall and rapes me even though I keep telling him no-what should I have done differently there?

    Or lets say I am at a club and I am there with my boyfriend and he slips the roofie into my drink because I am not giving him enough sex, he takes me home and then rapes me, what should I have done there differently?

    And ultimately, why does it need to be my responsibility to police what men do? Do you really think that I am being so irresponsible to walk in public in a skirt that shows off my legs because I think I look pretty or that if I want to have a drink with my friends that I better be drinking soda cause after all I will be vulnerable if I drink alcohol and being a tiny petite female shouldn’t do what a man can do in my place? Should it really matter if I flirt with one man, three women and the bartender because if I get raped it somehow means I asked for it?

    We are raised in a society that blames us for the rape and what you are missing is that by telling us we should have done this that or the other, even if you say the ultimate blame lays upon the shoulder of the guy who comitted the act it still seems like you are pointing your finger at us saying if you weren’t so dumb and stupid you would have been able to prevent it!

    Why can’t we lay the blame where it belongs, at the feet of the man who decided just because I was his girlfriend, wife, daughter, sister, mother, aunt whatever that he had all rights to me. How about we blame him instead of saying what I could have done should have done or better have done to be blameless in the whole event?

    Or is that too much for you to comprehend?

  28. Andrew November 24, 2009 at 5:36 AM #

    Valley, if your point is that women can not prevent all rapes, that was never on dispute. You wouldn’t argue that we should disband the local police force simply because they can’t stop every crime.

    Furthermore this issue got pretty thorough treatment. The problem with my approach is not the approach, but the implications. Women protecting themselves implies they can be responsible for preventing a rape, which leads to victim blaming if they fail to prevent it. Idealogically I think the position a majority of readers here has taken is that rape will happen, women who can prevent it will, women who can’t couldn’t have to begin with and so nobody will benefit from by advice.

    You seem to be in that camp. I don’t think the logic is sound, however. It sacrafices women who could be helped for the sake of proving a point.

    In short, the next time my buddy tells me he is off to rape a girl, I’ll remind him not to. The next time a girl friend looks sickly drunk at the bar I’ll leave her there with some dude nobody knows so I don’t give her the impression her subsequent rape was preventable at all. This seems to be the stance most of the readers on this blog have at least.

  29. Valley November 24, 2009 at 5:48 AM #

    But again, my point is why does the girl have to be told? You are really under the impression that most women do not understand how to protect themselves and need you, the male, to tell us how to do so. And you know what, I should be allowed to get drunk at a bar without worries that you or your friend might look at me and think to yourself hey, I can fuck her and get away with it.

    Also, you seem to miss that most of us do this because we know that if we don’t then we are to blame while the guy who did it usually gets off totally free because jee golly wilkers if that stupid female had just done…(please insert your wisdom that most of us stupid females haven’t heard since we have been four)

    Yet what you are missing is that those scenarios above where I am being raped by my husband or boyfriend or best friend-those are the ones that are MOST common.

    So Andrew what should I have done differently there? You seem to have all the advice what should I have done differently?

  30. Valley November 24, 2009 at 5:54 AM #

    And for the record the rules rock and I will try to give those to all my girlfriends.

  31. polly styrene November 24, 2009 at 10:41 AM #

    Mind you, it would decrease opportunistic rapes…not being a rapist I don’t know, but wouldn’t many stranger rapes be purely opportunistic

    What you mean like when you’re walking round the supermarket and you weren’t planning to buy pasta sauce, but it’s on special offer, so you get it anyway?

    Wouldn’t the implications of that be that all men are potential rapists, they just lack opportunity?

  32. isme November 25, 2009 at 8:38 AM #

    “Wouldn’t the implications of that be that all men are potential rapists, they just lack opportunity?”

    I read somewhere that a survery found that 60% of men (I think it was college students) would rape if they were sure they’d get away with it.

    Now, I’ve no reason to take that statistic as being terribly accurate, but I’d say that it was likely that a massive amount (hopefully only a significant minority) would rape if they had the chance, but haven’t yet.

    I mean, what’s the difference between a person who has just committed his first rape, and the same person a week earlier? Surely, the desire to rape is in most cases going to be there, it was just not acted upon yet, leaving them a normal, productive member of society.

  33. Andrew November 25, 2009 at 2:52 PM #

    Well, I am kind of just pulling this out of my ass, but as far as sex and men go I think there are 3 main motivations for sex that explain most male-sexual conduct. They are: Pleasure, Validation, & Power.

    I don’t think many men who seek out sex mostly to feel validated are potential rapists, as repeatedly being told no, seeing a women cry in bed with you, using force…etc., are not validating.*

    Pleasure and power are different though. I don’t see rape-sex being very “pleasurable”. It can, physically I suppose, but the mental-physical connection would seem to be more of a hinderance than a help, unless of course rape was the male aggressor’s fetish.

    I think, as far as rape goes, men who use sex a way to feel powerful are the main offenders. Control for these men, like money, is worth having regardless of how it’s achieved. I would easily argue that all of these men are potential rapists.

    Thus, in a very sloppy way, I believe the three types of men that are ALL potentially rapists are: Men who have sex to feel powerful, Men who have a strong rape fetish, and *Men who are so insecure that they will seek validation through strong coercive pressure.

    Of course, these are strict groups and nobody is really just one, but a mix of all 3, but I think the analysis is still valid.

  34. ShadoWolf November 30, 2009 at 7:37 AM #

    I had someone suggest the “Tips” above and they also suggested that I read the comments, which I’ve done. I’m rather taken aback by some of what I’ve read.

    Before I get started, let me first state that I am male, which means that for some of the real men-haters I’ve already lost any credibility. I’m also American Indian, a much smaller and less powerful minority in this society than even women. American Indians also are victims of violent crime at over twice the per capita rate in the USA as any other race.

    I’m also a retired state law enforcement officer from a very large state, with the last 6 years of my time spent training other law enforcement officers. I taught officers firearms, self-defense techniques, and Special Weapons and Tactics training. After I retired I was the lead designer for a program to train advocates of sexual assault victims in Indian Country for the US Department of Justice.

    In my career I’ve seen a lot of sex crimes. I’ve seen the father that molested is 12 year old daughter from the time she was 8. Her mother called her a “whore” and a “lying bitch” because her mother refused to believe it happened when she finally told her mother about what had been going on. That family was torn to pieces, but with counseling for everyone, they were able to put some semblance of a life back together. But I’m sure that the daughter was scared in many ways that most of us couldn’t even begin to imagine.

    I have also seen three males in their mid-20’s break into the house of an 87 year old woman, and when they found her there one of the males decided to rape her and then put an ice pick through her eye and into her brain, killing her instantly. I was rather happy to have been the one who’s testimony put him on death row. This was his second murder, and he had a very long history of violence.

    Violence is a part of this world, and those who don’t or won’t recognize that are fools. Fortunately, most people in the USA aren’t directly the victims of violent crime. Also, fortunately, those who commit crimes are a small percentage of the population, as well (at least in the USA). However, that doesn’t mean that just because violent crime isn’t that prevalent that we shouldn’t take precautions to protect ourselves. It doesn’t matter if we are male or female; failing to take precautions and be aware of our surroundings can increase our probability of being a victim.

    Of course, the victim is never “at fault.” It is always the perpetrator of the crime that is the one that should be responsible for their actions. But that is dealing with the situation after the fact, not prior to the commission of the crime. I don’t know why anyone would consciously wish to be a victim just so they could blame the perpetrator. So if some simple, easily applied things can be done to protect oneself and reduce the probability of becoming a “statistic” then why wouldn’t one take those precautions?

    Many of the things mentioned in this discussion are good things for anyone to be doing no matter what sex you are. Staying in groups in well lighted areas when you are in high risk locations is a smart thing for anyone, male or female. Watching out for your drinks and your friends when at bars is smart, along with driving with your doors locked and staying off of the cell phone so you aren’t oblivious to what is happening around you when you are in those high risk situations. Also stay off your cell phone when you are walking to or from your car and pay attention to what is going on around you, as parking lots, especially dark ones, are havens for violence. (BTW, males are much more likely to be victims of car jackings than women; parking lots really are not safe places.)

    Sure, if someone wants to hurt you, then they will, and no amount of precaution is going to stop them. Making rules and laws will not stop them. Telling them how to behave properly won’t stop them. That is why we have so many people in prison. But most criminals will not take the chance of getting caught; if you are aware of what is around you then they probably aren’t going to mess with you.

    On the other hand, there are those situations that have been mentioned in this discussion that aren’t as easy to prepare for. A boyfriend or friend that doesn’t take “no” for an answer is pretty hard to prepare for. Then again, there may have been some indications or tell-tale signs that he might get out of hand. Unfortunately, affairs of the heart are often blind to the short-comings of others (Yep, I’ve seen a lot of women who have been abused who have refused to leave their abusers because “I love him” or they think that “he really does love me.”), but wouldn’t it be nice if we were taught some of those tell-tales just in case we weren’t totally blinded?

    By the way, less than one half of 1% of the male population in the USA has committed a rape or other sexual crime, so there is no need for a woman to be afraid of all males. But how does one know which 1 out of 200 males that a woman encounters will be that one she needs to avoid? Then again, with about half of them being currently incarcerated, that takes the number up to about 1 out of every 400 or so. But does any of us know which one is “the one” until it is maybe too late?

    Fortunately, rape is a low statistically occurring crime. Less than a quarter of one percent of the population will be the victim of a rape or attempted rape. Less than a tenth of one percent will be raped by an intimate partner. But unfortunately, those that are a victim of these crimes aren’t just a statistic, but real people; and unfortunately, most of them are women, with the average age being 22. Also, unfortunately, the vast majority of the rape victims will not report their crime, including the male victims of rape (yes, even outside of prison there are male victims of rape).

    (See the Bureau of Justice Statistics for more information on these statistics mentioned above.)

    The best defense in dealing with any of this is to try to stop the cycles of violence. But that also takes breaking some cultural norms in many societies. To do that it takes knowledge and understanding for both males and females about this issue. It does take males standing up and saying that certain behaviors aren’t acceptable. But it also takes males and females taking responsibility for understanding what the signs of risk are, and to avoid those situations as much as possible. That means that we need to teach everyone what acceptable behavior is, and how to deal with various situations. And, no, most women do not know the simple things to protect themselves, because I see women (and men) of all ages engage in behavior that puts them at risk quite freqently.

    Life is rarely black and white. It isn’t about “either/or.” There is a whole lot of color in life, including a lot of grey and shadows as well as bright sunlight. There is also a lot of “and” in life, as well. So, yes, we do want to blame the perpetrator of the rape. It is solely his fault that the crime was committed. The victim is not at fault. And, yes, we want people to take precautions so that we don’t have the crime occur in the first place and so that we don’t have a victim at all. That is the best outcome of all possible circumstances. And keep in mind that what happens before a crime happens, that our actions are totally under our own control. The commission of the crime is totally under the control of the perpetrator. While connected, these are two separate points in time. It’s probably best that we don’t confuse the two and who has the responsibility at those times for the actions that happen.

    Finally, if we are going to make any inroads into breaking the cycle of violence we have to open up avenues of communication and put away the hate that can often surround this terrible crime. We have to arm ourselves instead with knowledge and understanding and allow us to communicate effectively with each other about how to stop this violence. When we choose to hate others simply because of their sex, we end up making ourselves a victim. As I shared, I am American Indian, and I chose not to hate others for the past (and current) situations that my people have suffered. I chose not to be a victim and refuse to be made one.

    These kinds of issues are rarely simple. They are often a complex makeup of related issues, problems and circumstances. Once we take the time to unravel all of this we can then often find some very simple solutions to these complex problems. It is our mistake to think that these issues are simple and then toss complicated solutions at them.

    Anyway, for what it is worth, those are my thoughts. Take what you wish and blow the rest away with a breath of kindness.

  35. Imaginary December 12, 2009 at 2:00 AM #

    These are good rape jokes, because they are making fun of rapists, not making light of rape. We need more of these. MORE I TELL YOU! MOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!

  36. Valley November 16, 2010 at 12:37 AM #

    The problem with coming into a feminist website and offering the same “advice” that women have heard a thousand million times is that we have heard most of this “advice” so many times that it is coming out of our ears. There is never going to be a thousand percent way to avoid rape if you are a female. Every female out there is at risk because some man might get it into his head that I am his personal property to use as he sees fit.

    I don’t drink in bars without friends, usually female friends. I watch my drink like a hawk or have a friend watch it for me if I need to zip off to the ladies room. If they walk away I toss the drink because I just really don’t know. Fear is my middle name because any male I see might be a rapist.

    I have walked home late at night because I had no other choice in the matter. I found myself scared witless when a man I didn’t know said hey. Why? Because he might have had other intentions in mind. Nothing happened. I was lucky that night because if things had been different I might not be so thankful.

    What the women here are trying to convey is that we do understand the risks we take, because we have to take them every single day of our lives. Do we let the cable guy in while I am home alone? We also think about the things when we are with a man because if we were to get raped by a stranger our value to the man in our life usually goes down. His “property” has been damaged.

    If a girl gets raped, oh the people who come out of the woodwork to let us know every little thing we could have done differently if the voices in our heads aren’t telling us all the things we could have done altered.

    I got molested by my father and barely missed getting raped as an eight year old by a sixteen year old boy when I was in foster care. These are things my mother doesn’t know about me because of the shame and stimga attached. Do you know how I prevented my rape? I told the boy a flat out lie and he bought it because I was eight.

    When the behavior got noticed I was told by the foster care provider that I needed to keep myself tidy otherwise the boys might get the impression that I was sluttish. He received no punishment and why should I have told this person what could have happened if I hadn’t lied to the boy?

    Andrew, you honestly might be trying to help us by letting us know the things we could do differently but it comes off as saying really you women just need to control yourselves better. If you hadn’t done these things it wouldn’t have happened.

    And yes your comment earlier could be comparing us to children which happens far more than I am comfortable with. Women are not children who just think they are invincible. It gets removed from our heads pretty quickly.

    Next time you see a rape case Andrew, read the comments. There were will be tons of things similar to what you told us here. TONS of people blaming the girl saying if she had only thought her situation through none of this would have happened.

    There might be five comments that focused on the fact that the rapist took advantage of her, that it never would have happened if he hadn’t been looking for the most vulnerable person he could find to rape.

    And all too often we have to spend nine hundred comments explaining to men/women/rape apologists why their comment comes across as so victim blaming. The victim shouldn’t have had to do anything different in a world where consent as a given wasn’t the norm. He would know he needed to get a “yes” from her that hadn’t been hounded or guilted or anything from her. A yes she meant one hundred percent.

    Women are not to blame because someone decided to rape them. Doesn’t matter if she had ten drinks or none, it doesn’t matter if she walked home through the dark alley while singing and paying no attention to her surroundings. It shouldn’t matter if she left her drink alone whilst she went potty or not. She didn’t cause herself to get raped. The rapist made the choice to take her’s away.

    That is the world I am working towards. A world where women can have the freedom that right now too many of us curtail. So maybe you can start reminding your buddies yes means yes and no means no. It doesn’t mean not right now, or maybe later, or if you keep bugging me I will just to get you to stop. It doesn’t mean wait until she gets drunk enough and use her then. It means respecting a woman’s bodily autonomy.

    And the list is still wicked cool.

  37. joy November 16, 2010 at 11:43 AM #

    Oh, and let it stand for the record that I am one of those “real haters out there.”

    That’s kind of satisfying.

    Also, Mr Law Enforcement Man, although I am a Real Hater, you lost your cred with me not because you’re a man, but because you’re a cop. Everyone knows cops don’t give a flying shit about rape. Don’t kid us or yourself.

  38. Andrew November 16, 2010 at 11:48 AM #

    Valley,

    These rules represent an ideal, namely one in which all men are are not only sensitive to the vulernabipity of women, but also choose to abstain from taking advantage of them based on that power differential.

    That would be nice. When I make cost-benefit assessments that involve my safety, however, I will continue to use a standard that is relevant to how the world actually works. You, of course, are free not to.

    It seems, based on your response, that you exercise the same caution I was advocating. As a result I am having trouble seeing where we disagree. If it is victim blaming for me to suggest that you (as a woman) take precautions, what does it mean when you actually do it?

  39. joy November 16, 2010 at 9:11 PM #

    @Andrew –

    Ooh, pick me, pick me!

    Because you’re a man and don’t get to tell us what the fuck to do? You smug, privileged, pain in the ass of a dumb fucking shitstain fuckhead.

  40. GraceMargaret November 16, 2010 at 10:42 PM #

    Andrew,
    You seem to be on some sick power trip. Telling women that we need your advice on how to prevent something we already KNOW we are in danger of is so unbelievably arrogant and grotesque. Nobody needs or wants your damned ‘advice’. The fact that you keep coming here no matter what women say to you and completely ignore their concerns, well, that says it all. Get some professional help.

  41. isme November 17, 2010 at 3:39 AM #

    “Everyone knows cops don’t give a flying shit about rape. Don’t kid us or yourself.”

    Sorta drives it home with this bit, doesn’t he?

    “Fortunately, rape is a low statistically occurring crime. Less than a quarter of one percent of the population will be the victim of a rape or attempted rape. Less than a tenth of one percent will be raped by an intimate partner.”

  42. GraceMargaret November 17, 2010 at 4:01 PM #

    “Fortunately, rape is a low statistically occurring crime. Less than a quarter of one percent of the population will be the victim of a rape or attempted rape. Less than a tenth of one percent will be raped by an intimate partner.”

    Those statistics are absurd, the Department of Justice in U.S. and the White House reports that 18 percent of women have been raped in their lifetime and that 10.8 percent of girls and 4.2 percent of boys from grades nine to twelve were forced to have sexual intercourse at some time in their lives:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Presidential-Proclamation-Marking-National-Sexual-Assault-Awarness-Month-2009/

    Here are some basic facts that maybe our cop and Andrew should read and, yes, spread around to their male friends and aquaintances. Most ‘regular guy’ rapists don’t even think what they did was rape, so the idea that telling men to stop is not going to help is ridiculous. Male culture/rape culture can only change if other men speak up, not by coming to feminist sites and lecturing women.

    “Rapes/sexual assaults committed by strangers are more likely to be reported to the
    police than rapes/sexual assaults committed by ‘nonstrangers,’ including intimate
    partners, other relatives and friends or acquaintances.”

    –o Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Reporting Crime to the Police

    * 77% of rapes are committed by someone known to the person raped.
    (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1997)

    * In a study of 6,000 students at 32 colleges in the US, 42% of
    rape victims told no-one and only 5% reported it to the police.

    * In a survey of college males who committed rape, 84% said what
    they did was definitely not rape. (Warshaw, Robin 1994 “I Never Called
    It Rape”)

    * 6 out of 10 rapes are reported by victims to have occurred in
    their own home or home of a friend, relative or neighbor. (US Dept. of
    Justice 1997)

    * 1 in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the
    legal definition of rape or attempted rape. (Warshaw, Robin 1994 “I
    Never Called It Rape”)

    * 15% of men who lived with a man as a couple reported being raped/
    assaulted or stalked by a male cohabitant. (1999 Centers for Disease
    Control and Prevention)

    * Around the world at least 1 women in 3 has been beaten,
    coerced into sex or otherwise abused in her lifetime. Most often the
    abuser is a member of her own family. (John Hopkins School of Public
    Health 2000)

  43. joy November 18, 2010 at 12:31 PM #

    The thing is probably that most men don’t think what they do is rape. A lot of women don’t think what happened to them is rape. A lot more women know it was, but know the law doesn’t give a shit and thus don’t report it.

    I thought everyone knew that.

  44. Fede November 18, 2010 at 1:06 PM #

    Ah, yes, how fortunate that rape hardly ever occurs. Spoken like a really quite tool-istic tool. Why don’t you blow that away with a breath of kindness, ShadoWolf. For someone whose tone is as apparently kind as yours, the actual things you are saying are wondrous offensive and just plain wrong.

    Thank you, GraceMargaret, for yet again being the voice of reason.

  45. Fede November 18, 2010 at 1:28 PM #

    Andrew,

    Why is it you turn nasty whenever people in these threads criticise something you’re saying and even explain why they find it problematic? You can’t just take the criticism to heart like any man in a feminist forum ought to do? Why is that; have you asked yourself? Or are you afraid that the answer might be that you are in fact an arsehole?

  46. Valley November 18, 2010 at 3:54 PM #

    It means Andrew that I analyze the acceptable risks for me and make my decisions accordingly knowing the reality doesn’t match what I would like to see the world become because I already know we don’t live in an utopian society.

    What I feel you seem to be consistently missing is that even if I were to take what you deemed an unacceptable risk because just one night I thought I could just somehow be okay if I just didn’t follow the rules and did get raped it still wouldn’t be my fault because he made the choice to rape.

    Coming into a feminist forum and giving a lecture based on rules we already hear one million times is not helpful anymore than me calling you names would help communication. It seems you are being obtuse or I am not being clear enough.

    I resent that you feel you have the right to march into a feminist dialogue with the same contrite bullshit and attitude that every single man has about rape and expect us all to seemingly face palm ourselves because like the little children you seemingly mistake us for we could have never figured out those simplistic answers to a very complex question in most women’s life hetrosexual or not.

    Yet for all the constant hyper awareness you are urging us to partake in you on,h want to tackle the rape question from the rather comfortable stranger tampers with drink or gets you when you foolish girl walk into a dark alley.

    Statistics simply does not back up the need for our hyper awareness of strangers when the most danger lies in the men we know and trust. Those are the men we most have to protect ourselves from and not drinking will not prevent a thing in that case.

    To simplify with an example. I have known Bob for ten years. I have left my drink alone with him on numerous occasions without incident, bit when I have been only with Bob and in groups of friends. So Bob asks me out for fun times I readily agree. I know him and he’s a close friend so of course there’s a level of trust.

    So I go potty and leave Bob with my drink. He decides tonight to slip in the rape drug because of whatever reason he makes up in his noggin. I come back and drink it. I get woozy and he takes me him where he rapes me.

    This isn’t the perverted stranger who rapes countless women who obviously did not follow this common sense rules and should feel ashamed that they didn’t. I mean *SARCASM ALERT* women who report their rapes are always treated so delicately and with such respect because of the impact this rape has on them. Not to mention the support that just overwhelms from the community.

    Okay end of sarcasm.

    To answer the question I do these things because I have no other choice because men shift them blame back in my lap all too often. I don’t do these things to please you or because the men in my life tell me but because I know that until you men do take responsibility for your actions I better modify mine.

    It still won’t help me defend from the men most likely to harm me. It still won’t help me get it through your thick skull how condescending or patronizing you sound telling us as grown women how to best defend ourselves like somehow women just need to hear that same advice every time rape is brought up while doing your damnedest to not have to tell your guy friends that no means no. It still won’t cause you to ask me if I do these things in order to subtract from the chance one of you men will decide I am too something and rape me that makes me a rape apologist too because I do these things.

    It doesn’t. Why? Because when Tina runs to me with her story about rape I know the person at fault. Her RAPIST or RAPISTS. Not Tina. No matter if she followed every bloody rule or didn’t. Whether she took the risk because she had no other choice or took the risk blatantly. Tina is the victim.

    So how about not barging in dripping your entitlement everywhere? It’s a thought.

  47. Andrew November 18, 2010 at 6:05 PM #

    Valley,

    I just want to be clear that as far as you believe I am assigning fault, I am not. This whole dialogue, as far as it pertains to me, is the result of taking the opinion that “women should take precautions” to mean that “if they don’t they are responsible for their own rape.”

    I can think of several reasons this is bunk. First of all, women may take all reasonable precaution and still be raped. Second, as you point out, most rapes occur in contexts that don’t lend themselves to reasonable precautions, e.g., acquaintance rape. Third, rape is done almost exclusively by men. Since their is no “duty to not be a rape victim” in our society (or at least in my vision of it), I don’t hold victims of rape accountable for that.

    This whole argument has been about whether believing women should take precaution will automatically lead to holding them accountable for their own oppression. I don’t believe it does. The fact that women like yourself actually take these precautions leads me to believe that you don’t either.

    Based on that, I don’t see a difference in our opinions. We both realize it is men who should be held accountable for rape. We both admit women should not be held responsible for them, but we both believe women can benefit from being cautious. Where is the beef?

  48. isme November 19, 2010 at 2:00 AM #

    “This whole dialogue, as far as it pertains to me, is the result of taking the opinion that “women should take precautions” to mean that “if they don’t they are responsible for their own rape.” ”

    Well, it does mean that. You’re absolutely right, there should be a rather large distinction, but there isn’t.

    You can say “people should take precautions to stop their cars being stolen”. You could even say “if someone leaves their car unlocked and the keys in the ignition at night, they deserve to have it stolen”.

    Conventional logic would seem to imply you should be able to apply the same thing to all other crimes. However, the societal response to rape does not follow any sort of conventional logic.

    As a rule, when someone says they have had their car nicked, they are not automatically assumed to be to blame. The crime does not reduce their worth as a human being (or, retroactively, proves they didn’t have any to begin with). They are not said by masses of people to have deserved it, by virtue of owning a car. People don’t laugh and say they wished they were the ones that stole the car, only they’d have done it more aggressively (and, on a personal note, the one I really fucking hate, you don’t get people saying that they deserved and caused it, but it’s ok, cause the people saying that don’t believe it and are nice guys really).

    A person, especially a man (doesn’t help if your name literally means “man” either) cannot talk about the importance of women, because the victim blamers have gotten hold of the concept and turned it into a weapon to use against women. Sooner go to Germany and warn people of a conspiracy to ruin the country that just happens to be composed entirely of Jewish people.

  49. Fede November 19, 2010 at 7:00 AM #

    @Valley, I apologise for butting into your conversation with Andrew like this. I felt a strong urge to comment, hope you don’t mind.

    Andrew,

    the beef – as far as I can see from this thread, and as far as I myself am concerned – is that you insist on making the discussion about whether or not women might be better off taking precautions. Why do you so insist? Do you not see that everyone here is way ahead of you? We are not interested in debating whether or not women’s precautions can sometimes prevent rape. We would like to

    1)raise awareness about how raping is a choice, and men can and should refrain from raping,
    2)raise awareness about how men can and should persuade other men to stop raping, and
    3)talk about why people so consistently fail to realise that the onus to prevent rape should be on the potential rapist rather than on the woman.

    The beef, therefore, is one of priorities. You apparently think it very important to stress that women should not refrain from taking precautions out of spite. Here’s the thing, though: women already know this. So it is NOT important to stress. Particularly not for a man in a feminist forum (who, as a matter of course, runs the risk of sounding like a dick).

    You have been told that whatever feeble point about women’s precautions you are making is one that everyone has already thought of themselves AND heard a nauzillion times from condescending men. You have been told that women here don’t appreciate being thus condescended to, particularly when they would much rather you spent your energy trying to persuade your male acquaintances not to rape. Yet you maintain that there is no disagreement between you and others in this thread as soon as you seem to have roughly the same ideas on women’s precautions. Can you seriously not see how that is missing the point?

    Your “you really agree with me but just won’t admit it” attitude is offensive in the extreme and also just plain wrong.

    I and others here resent the derailment you are effecting with your continual departure from the point. You don’t care. Ain’t that just like a man?

  50. Valley November 19, 2010 at 9:15 AM #

    Well then let me spell it out for you as clearly and with as few typos as I possibly can so I can be REAL clear.

    The list were (though tongue in cheek) all things men could do in order to.ensure rape didn’t happen while they were around. It was funny because several of those rules were the same thing you said just worded slighty differently.

    I personally thought it was funny and thought provoking because deep inside my Sally Sunshine thought men would look at this and think of all the ways they now could have an in depth conversation about rape that didn’t turn into a lame joke found on some late night tv show.

    Instead you barged in and told us again how we needed to think about our actions because we as girls couldn’t possibly be raised from birth to think of these things. Instead of discussing ways men like you could be having the type of conversation that might change your fellow male minds we are having the same old red herring argument.

    You come across as patronizing and never back down from that stance. If younger so agreeable that stranger rape is our minimal fear and the bigger one isn’t quite meet by those guidelines you so helpfully put forward why are you still acting as if this is new info? If you so agree that it can’t protect me or Lisa against our friend Bob why are you trying to play slight of hand with the conversation yo still focus on the red herring?

    You say you don’t blame the female but you read entirely different. On top you still got us all trying to explain to you why your comments continually steamed us. So here’s why you still got me angry.

    1) I have been there heard that. Not just from you. Can it with the advice that simply was not asked for. You focused it all back on what SHE could do to minimize her rape chances. It was all her her her on a thread about advice that put responsibility straight on HIS shoulders. Come on now. You still don’t see how you acting as if your wisdom was so earth shattering THAT I heard it ALL before?

    2). If you get any more patronizing and entitled I will stop trying to communicate because you simply don’t want to hear something so you ignore it. But plenty of women before and after have pointed out the on screen charisma you have. Yes sarcasm it was.

    3). When do men step up to the plate and realize that they need to see us as well people. When will you? You seem squeamish when you are told to stop giving us advice and maybe your time would best be spent telling your fellow men yo cool it with the lame rape jokes or no means no, or he’ll anything besides coming into a thread that brought up rape and focused on what MEN could do to end it.

    Simple no? I am not in agreement because you want to defend coming into a group of women and repeating the same tired line of freedom curtailing defenses that still won’t protect us from the people we will most likely be raped by. Instead if then discussing the ideas mentioned or making reasonable ones men could do you only wanted to focus on the fact that since I do these things what harm in giving the advice out. For you know the nine hundredth time this week that I will hear them.

    This is where your mind shuts down. Guess what? Your advice has been pounded into most of our heads before we could walk. My beef is you only want to focus on this being sensible and taking certain risks and you are giving out advice we could already have told you.

    So there is my beef.

  51. Andrew November 19, 2010 at 3:55 PM #

    Valley,

    I meant to put this in my last post but, to the extent that I offended you (or anyone) by saying “Women, for their own sakes, should exercise a lot of caution when they are in vulnerable positions,” I apologize. Since I said this after saying “Rape is invariably a man’s fault” and before saying “there is a reason rape occurs between acquaintances,” it is hard to see what is so offensive about it in the abstract.

    That being said, the arguments I were involved in were never about whether or not women knew they should take precautions. It was about whether saying such puts the onus of rape prevention on the victim. I don’t think it does, ND and others did. That point is important to me because I don’t think it’s inherently anti-feminist to tell women not to take unsound actions that they otherwise might.

    What isn’t an important point, however, is whether or not women know they should take precautions. We agree on that. Since this never was the point though, at least from my perspective, I am as happy to be done with it as you are.

  52. GraceMargaret November 19, 2010 at 4:43 PM #

    Andrew wonders what the beef is. “Golly Gee, all I said was women should protect themselves!” Go back and look at your posts Andrew, you are just backpedaling now and trying to minimize the outrageous things you said earlier. Here are a few gems from Andrew:

    “If the woman was related to me she would hear quite often about how she should and shouldn’t act based on the probability she might be assaulted because of it.
    I wouldn’t beat a dead horse and tell her she should have done something differently if she were raped.
    If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently.”

    “…one of my best girl friends was sexually assaulted, it was much easier to do because she was under the influence.
    So there is at least ONE woman who could have used my advice.”

    “As for you, you recognize the risk of your actions. You make an educated decision regarding your autonomy.
    For most women that choice is not clear and it is not made intelligently.”

    “Jamie Leigh Jones is a perfect example of this as she was slipped a date rape drug and gang raped in what can easily be described as one of the worst cases I’ve ever read.
    Am I blaming her for her assault? No, absolutely not. Do I think it could have been prevented if she had refused the drink. I am not sure. Would she have definitely stood a better chance of fighting off these men sober. Yes.”

    “Hypothetical: Lets pretend a woman volunteered to spend a night alone in a house with a convicted rapist. If she is raped, what level of sympathy is the woman entitled to?”

    It surreal, the arrogance and cruel insensitivity.
    Valley was very clear and concise about what her beef was. But of course you completely ignored her, like you did all the other women here, which is part of the problem…men tend to ignore what we say and keep blathering on and on without any thought to the implications of anything they say or do.

    And in the extreme form, that attitude is what is behind a man ignoring a woman saying NO to sex and just continuing as if she said absolutely nothing. If men actually respected and listened to what women had to say about their own lives, their own experiences, and what happens to THEIR OWN BODIES, rape would not exist.

  53. GraceMargaret November 19, 2010 at 4:45 PM #

    Andrew wonders what the beef is. “Golly Gee, all I said was women should protect themselves!” Go back and look at your posts Andrew, you are just backpedaling now and trying to minimize the outrageous things you said earlier. Here are a few gems from Andrew:

    “If the woman was related to me she would hear quite often about how she should and shouldn’t act based on the probability she might be assaulted because of it.
    I wouldn’t beat a dead horse and tell her she should have done something differently if she were raped.
    If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently.”

    “…one of my best girl friends was sexually assaulted, it was much easier to do because she was under the influence.
    So there is at least ONE woman who could have used my advice.”

    “As for you, you recognize the risk of your actions. You make an educated decision regarding your autonomy.
    For most women that choice is not clear and it is not made intelligently.”

    “Jamie Leigh Jones is a perfect example of this as she was slipped a date rape drug and gang raped in what can easily be described as one of the worst cases I’ve ever read.
    Am I blaming her for her assault? No, absolutely not. Do I think it could have been prevented if she had refused the drink. I am not sure. Would she have definitely stood a better chance of fighting off these men sober. Yes.”

    “Hypothetical: Lets pretend a woman volunteered to spend a night alone in a house with a convicted rapist. If she is raped, what level of sympathy is the woman entitled to?”

    It surreal, the arrogance and cruel insensitivity.
    Valley was very clear and concise as the what her beef was. But of course you completely ignored her, and all the other women here, which is part of the problem…men tend to IGNORE what we say and keep blathering on and on without any thought to the implications of anything they say or do.

    And in the extreme form, that attitude is what is behind a man ignoring a woman saying NO to sex and just continuing as if she said absolutely nothing. If men actually respected and listened to what women had to say about their own lives, their own experiences, and what happens to THEIR OWN BODIES, rape would not exist.

  54. Valley November 19, 2010 at 5:52 PM #

    Andrew,

    Okay I have tried even with some bad typos to explain why I am angry that you barged in, I have written long missive after missive explaining why I really disliked the tone of your voice and I have even given you the benefit of the doubt here. So one last time here’s why I am having “beef”:

    YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO BARGE INTO A DISCUSSION ON WHERE MEN NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND TURN IT BACK AROUND ON WOMEN!

    Stop. Do not pass go. Do not collect two hundred dollars. No.

    You march in here and tell us “Rape is invariably a man’s fault”, but then continue to harp on the things WOMEN can do to minimize their risks.

    You will not discuss anything else but those points. Andrew what do I need to tell you? * these are to indicate my sarcasm Andrew just in case you are oblivious.*

    I am about five inches from banging my head really hard against my keyboard though. You seem to fixate on one point so hell with it, I am going to address it.

    “It was about whether saying such puts the onus of rape prevention on the victim.” you said, meaning if barging into this space to tell us how to defend ourselves puts the onus of prevention on women.

    No, if you then went on to talk about how men could dismantle their own myths about what women want or even if you then went on to discuss how we might be able to dismantle those myths.

    Instead all you focus on is the women. Guess what, yes then it does become VICTIM BLAMING.

    Example:

    You and I know each other for three or four years. We go out to see a play. The play is Rent. I absolutely adore Rent. We go back to our car through an alley having an argument about Rent. In the alley I shot you.

    Everyone comes out of the woodwork to tell you how you shouldn’t have walked down the alley with me, and why didn’t you walk in a group or make sure I didn’t have a conceal and carry permit or the like. What if they did that on a list where it puts all blame on people like me who randomly shoots other on me but instead everyone just focused on you and why you should have done something different and any man like you who would get shot in an alley. How would you feel?

    Do you get it now or does the entitlement still blind?

  55. Andrew November 19, 2010 at 10:14 PM #

    Valley,

    The focus has remained on women in this discussion because the focus has remained on one comment I made. Because that comment focused on women, all the rest do as well. Since you implied that my comment was merely “offensive” (as opposed to wrong) we can move past it.

    As for your example, I think what’s behind the silliness of me being blamed for my own shooting is the idea that I would never expect to get shot by you. As a result, it would be really unfair to blame me for something completely unforeseeable which you had complete control over.

    Your analogy then is that it would be equally silly for women to expect to be raped (and thus be blamed for it) by acquaintances and people they trust that ultimately have control. Maybe what accounts for the difference between rape, murder, and victim blaming is men’s perspectives on our own capacity to rape. Maybe we expect all men to be the slimy douchebags we see ourselves as and so assume women should always expect to be raped because we are all about that. Maybe we just assume that men are going to rape no matter what and so if there is any hope for stopping it it is the the ability of women to protect themselves. Whatever the assumption is, the hypothesis behind the social experiment that the rules epitomize is that men can stop other men from rape. As far as I understand it, that’s been the idea behind rape laws for centuries now and it is still a problem. Men can’t stop other men from doing anything, least of all controlling their sexual impulses.

    Let me share an example with you: You and I, after a few drinks, are leaving a bar. MY friend tells me not to rape you, I do so anyway. He would never know because I would never tell him and you would never report it. As a result, he could never check my behavior by ending our friendship, reporting me to the cops, etc. Alternatively, assume we are leaving and YOUR friend steps in and tells me, “Look, she is too drunk so I am not gonna let her leave with you.”

    In scenario one (the one favored by most of the women here) the girl gets raped and I get away with it. In scenario two (my vision) she does not. That is why I can’t accept the idea that my idea is either offensive or wrong.

    P.S. The reason I “barged” onto this thread in the first place was because everyone was misconstruing Dougal’s comments above. I figured before he got ran off this blog you all should at least be clear about what he was saying.

    That’s all I am going to say on this topic.

  56. Fede November 19, 2010 at 11:11 PM #

    Andrew is the classic ‘Fucking Pedantic Asshole’ – see Twisty’s take on the FPA.

    Until further notice, I for one will not be responding to him. Far from being worth the effort, it’s more like feeding a troll.

  57. Bluecat November 20, 2010 at 12:42 AM #

    “If the woman was related to me she would hear quite often about how she should and shouldn’t act based on the probability she might be assaulted because of it.
    I wouldn’t beat a dead horse and tell her she should have done something differently if she were raped.
    If she were raped she knows she should have done something differently.

    Wow. Just…wow. I didn’t think victim-blaming could reach even more dizzying dizzying heights of absurdity, but this is just…wow.

    Ok, Andrew, I’ll be a good little girl and take your advice. Since, according to your logic, a women is “asking for it” by having the audacity to:
    a) drink an alcoholic beverage or two while in proximity of a member(s) of the opposite sex
    b) allow one’s self to be alone with a known and trusted member of the opposite sex
    c) generally not be in the vicinity of any member of the opposite sex at any time unless I’m committed to maintaining 100% sober hyper-vigilance, am armed to the eyeteeth, and have completed martial arts training and received a black belt in “rape preparedness”.
    That means no more parties, no more dating, no more meeting friends at a pub for a drink or two, no more hanging out with male friends. So I guess my social life is now limited to socializing exclusively with women in my home or theirs, and only if there aren’t any men present because being in the vicinity of a man is like asking him to rape me or something…according to Andrew.

    Hmm…this seems oddly familiar. This new and safer social life is startlingly similar to the social life of a Middle Eastern Muslim woman. Interesting. In order to exonerate myself of responsibility, should I ever be raped, I have to essentially live the life of sheltered orthodox Muslim woman.

    :-(

    #:## (Sad face wearing a burqa, which is certain to be Andrew’s next suggestion for leading a rape-free lifestyle.)

  58. Hecate November 20, 2010 at 1:03 AM #

    Un no, he will never get it, and neither will other members of his gender. Men are truly miserable souls, and they want to drag us down into the misery with them. As a result of this creepy-crawly mindset of theirs, you will be expected almost by default to accept that rape and war are inevitable. As for the mindset itself, I will not waste my precious time deconstructing the male ego. Methinks that should be their homework. As a woman, and therefore a soul who wants to see something other than abject misery overcoming this world, my priorities lie elsewhere.

  59. Bluecat November 20, 2010 at 2:28 AM #

    Oops, that should read “generally be in the vicinity of any member of the opposite sex at any time…”, since not being in the vicinity of any men at any time is the only way to ensure a rape-free life, according to Andrew’s logic.

  60. kristina November 20, 2010 at 3:46 PM #

    Andrew, nobody is saying a potential rape victim shouldn’t be aware of their surroundings…but when you focus on the lack of awareness (like you are doing) you leave potential rapists thinking it’s never their fault because “she was out late”, “she was dressed sexy.”…we should all be aware of our surroundings and gauge risks in ratio to benefits…but when we repeat the same behaviors over and over again and expect different results, it is insanity by definition…So potential rape victims can still go out and have fun in the way they see fit as long as they are AWARE BEFORE HAND of the risks…pointing it out after is ridiculous…and potential rapists need to be aware that potential victims are already aware of the risks and that they will act accordingly…There’s a reason rapists carefully pick their victims… In a room full of dozens of women…good looking, sexy dressed women…the rapist will pick the one that is the least likely to resist based on her behavior…it’s not the way a woman is dressed, not the time she was out at night, not that she was drinking, not who she was or wasn’t talking to…it was the behaviors that indicated that she was lacking boundaries and assertiveness…for instance why do you think feminists get attacked on forums by guys who I’m sure even you perceive as vile and probably not having boundaries? People who don’t have boundaries hate people who are assertive because it doesn’t match their agenda, they see it as a zero-sum game…agree or you’re my enemy type behavior…You may even say that feminists are that way…yet you have agreed in some aspects of feminism…that would indicate it isn’t zero-sum to YOU wouldn’t it, so wouldn’t it be safe to assume it isn’t zero-sum to us?
    Even above it was indicated that it ONLY becomes victim blaming when that is the only issue you focus on…and not that the potential rapist was able to spot a behavior that would line up with his sick twisted behavior…You didn’t spot that they wouldn’t accuse you of victim blaming if you had said more than rape is wrong…anybody can rape, we know that and we all know it is wrong…you are lacking focus on the rapist by focusing on the act and the surface behaviors of the victim…the real underlying behavioral issues of both parties rapist and victim is a lack of asserting boundaries…the rapist will look for the deer in headlights because she is always on guard because of her lack of assertiveness, and his lack of boundaries is exemplified by his lack of concern for another human being’s perceived vulnerability..but surely he wouldn’t want to be taken advantage of…that is cognitive dissonance… If you act one way, and think another…you have some issues, no matter what sex…this is why no means no, plain and simple…that is what feminists tell women, is it not?? So wouldn’t you say feminism is addressing women’s lack of boundaries…in essence teaching women to assert their boundaries? and wouldn’t you say this is why MRAs are vehemently opposed to them…because this means they can’t find behavior that would fit their twisted behavioral patterns? Got it yet?

  61. Valley November 21, 2010 at 2:58 PM #

    Andrew it might be the last thing you say but I do have to weigh in one last time.

    You call my scenario ridiculous but then you go on to give one as equally ridiculous. Because my friend should know that leaving me alone with you, a friend, would lead to my rape simply because I was tipsy?

    You analogy doesn’t say why I would leave with you? Are we friends? Are you some stranger? Again, what about your friend? Do I know him? You say nothing about this because in your vision it wouldn’t matter as long as my friend steps up and polices my action.

    Again, women need to prevent rape. Women need to police their own actions and their friends actions because we bear the onus of preventing rape.

    That is what your scenario shares in black and white. I might have told your friend, especially if you were both my friends. I might have asked him why he didn’t tell me he thought you were capable of rape since he seems to think you might have been. Yet on the other hand, if he took you aside and said hey, she seems a little too drunk to really say yes man, why don’t we both walk her home together would you have said no?

    Instead no, let’s make sure the women step in and police it because the onus is on women to prevent rape, not men. Because men just don’t like the thought they could be slimy like that.

    So in your perfect world rape wouldn’t happen because women would make sure men didn’t rape.

    Sigh, I really wonder why you can’t see that when you keep telling women how we need to do things in order for rape not to happen you are telling women that they do bear the onus for rape prevention.

    Prettying that up with saying men bear the ultimate responsibility, or that men are the one’s who do the rape you continually say that women need to do things in order to make rape disappear.

    And also, one last thing. It is fine trying to make sure others don’t misunderstand someone but why is it okay for you to protect Dougal so we understand him, but not for you to say Dougal that his attitude might be wrong?

    Ultimately the onus should be on men.

  62. virago February 4, 2011 at 9:12 PM #

    I love this post! These rules for rapist are right on! I’ve read this blog, but this is the first time commenting. The most recent comments are a few months old, but I have to add my two cents after reading all of them.

    I agree with the posters that Andrew is an arrogant asshole! Women know from the cradle we need to take precautions. We don’t need to hear it from him.

    Andrew’s attempt to put the onus on women to prevent rape while giving himself and other men a free pass is just another case of men defending each other’s property rights (free sexual access to any woman’s body they desire). Even if that wasn’t his intent, that is exactly what he’s doing.

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