@Suzanne: I came to wonder if love between a man and a woman is even possible since we are trained to see the opposite sex in very different ways. Women are indoctrinated with the idea of ‘romantic love’ (from fairy tales, to romantic novels marketed to young girls, to women’s magazines), they learn to identify with men through men’s narratives (from religion to the whole of mainstream culture) and thus empathize with them. Men on their ends learn to objectify women through pornography. Women’s narratives are put under the label of ‘women’s issues’, thus as trivial and of no interest to them. Men do no learn to identify with women; they learn to see women as the ‘other’. Men do not ask ‘what about the womenz?’. Many seem to never envision seeing the world through a woman’s eyes; first because they are trained this way, but also I think because they are afraid of what it might reveal about their behaviour and they prefer the status quo which they feel works at their advantage.

I think that under these circumstances, love (true love, not ‘bling-bling’ love) is hard to achieve. Our experiences are so different that it leads to a point where men and women can not reach each other. In every relationship I had, there came a point where I had to face the built-in misogyny of my partner. It can take different forms: porn use, benevolent sexism, Madonna/whore complex, etc., but each time I felt like there was an insurmountable distance between us. I always felt then that my feelings/thoughts/attachment were not reciprocated to the same level. I came to the conclusion that love (‘romantic love’) is an illusion. How can true love be without understanding and empathy? I now know the limits of the relationships I can have with men and I stopped seeking with them the kind of love that I can only have with other women.

I am glad you are finding some freedom in rejecting pleasing the “masters”. It is a relief to shed that although it can be lonely at times, especially as it seems that the number of women who are willing to embrace low status and self-humiliation as a given and even call it power is depressing.

‘Will women value themselves at all’? I realized just recently how male-pleasing I have been most of my life (I am 35 years old) and it has not give me any real benefit; brought me more frustration and self-hating than anything else. I since gave up on this and started valuing myself and focussing on women. Not only do I feel more free and authentic than ever, but I discovered a whole new perspective on life. It is still frustrating at time, as I wish more women would take that path, but it is so positively enriching. I wish I knew about radical feminism years earlier.

@ isme – dead on. This argument about men being unchangeable is a dangerous one for men to invest in. Some northern towns (my part of the world) have issues with bears and other predators becoming acclimatized to human communities and initially the response is to keep people inside to keep them safe. But this is temporary until the animal can be moved. And if this is not possible (many animals will simply migrate back to where they know they can get food) the animal is killed. That’s all.

So if men “cannot” control their dangerous, anti-social and predatory behaviour, then their movements need to be restricted. Severely. Like maybe a curfew?

I remember a number of years ago when I lived in Vancouver there was a rash of rapes in the city so they asked women to stay indoors after dark and to only travel by car, etc. My self and my friends were furious. Why would they not keep males of the demographic – I think he was white, 18-30 ish – locked up instead? These sorts of strategies would certainly be an incentive for men to quit excusing unforgivable behaviour in their comrades.

We get caught up in the equality thing when it’s really just a ruse to distract us from working towards freedom. Men that are okay with their wives working do not see it in terms of “equal partnership.” They just see it as a way to expand their bank account. I find that so many women have no clue about how men really think of us so they assume that men relate to them as fellow autonomous beings when they really, really don’t. In fact, men don’t relate to us at all. We literally don’t exist outside of being of some use to them whether that be piv, chores, extra source of income, free therapist, cherished object, emotional punching bag, etc. Notice how many of these uses are abstract and can’t (yet) be easily fulfilled by literal objects. However, that is starting to change with the rise of technology. (see girlfriend apps and “realistic” sex dolls) What will become of us when there is literally nothing we can provide them they cannot better and more efficiently provide themselves? Think about it. Please.

@Missfit

Technically, the second article isn’t completely supporting the “nurture” argument since an extreme circumstance (the elimination of aggressive males from the troop) was needed in order for a less violent baboon culture to develop.

Will women ever value themselves at all? I mean, think about it. Why else are women placing the possibility of men acknowledging their humanity above our lives or at least quality of them? We are worth more than a man’s feelings…

What particularly annoys me about that defence is that it boils down to men being inherently inferior. It’s a lie you’d tell to support oppression of men, rather than by men.

That’s going through the motions because you don’t need to bother defending the patriarchy, everyone else will do it for you.