Salaam :)

Please note that I did give, as one of my potential reasons why, the fact that “slime” (male or female) is a sensible (to specify: “able to be sensed” not “sound and reasonable” I don’t think sexuality is often based on logical choices) proof of orgasm. And that it may be self-conditioning to eventually come to the conclusion that seeing it (or similar substances) is sexy. For some people. It is not too far a stretch from one’s own skin to another’s.

I also did not say “all people” are attracted to people who are thusly made shiny, just that people (to specify again: “some people”) are attracted to it. It does nothing for you, I’m not going to second-guess you – solipsism and all that – but it clearly does enough for enough people that it is being sold on an English-speaking site. Were my Russian better I might look it up in Cyrillic, just to see – or French, were that the case.

My argument, again, is not that ALL people (or indeed even a percentage approaching a majority of people) enjoy such activities – I could have linked to a picture of people having sex in chocolate pudding (there are pages of hits for it according to Google) and have made the same point. I chose the “lotion” fetish because it is closer to the point at hand.

I really did try to put my logic process down here along with as many of my questions as I felt were immediately connected – I would appreciate a more thorough answer.

If you do not feel that it is your need to hand-hold me down the path to sexual magnanimity I respect that and will hie myself to another opposing mindset in hopes that they will feel like taking the time to break down the steps that lead them to exclude all bukkake from the realm of “mutually enjoyable sexual acts where one or both parties has not sublimated misogyny or is acting as a misogynist.”

I am also unclear as to your stance on men who enjoy bukkake (receiving from other men). Are they simply into being denigrated themselves? I’m assuming (carefully) that you would not consider this misandry. What say you?

James: That was partially tongue-in-cheek. I do think there is a level of feminism that men, even Ts such as Ms. Erin, cannot reach because of a lack of experience; but to say that men cannot be feminists entirely would be like saying rich white men cannot be abolitionists. One can, on sheer principle, cast off privilege one realizes to be unfair.

And that’s partially why I bothered to read through and THINK (and, try at least, to self-examine) through this now 9-month conversation: realization usually requires new perspectives, and it’s often easier to borrow them from others rather than waiting for an “a-ha” moment.

Yay, biological essentialism…

Nice title, though. Tame by Japanese standards, but that’s probably for the best.

First! Let me stop right here and say: I have seen bukkake porn. The intent seems to be to degrade (my Japanese is non-existant). I am not intending to, and hope that no one will think I have tried to, defend degradation of people through this act or any other. I will not even get into the metanarrative of whether or not someone can enjoy something without it being a sublimation or traitorous act.
That said: I am a sexual being, I do enjoy pornography (I won’t give in to my desire to dress it up as “erotica” to make it sound nicer) but if I cannot see faces then I shut it off – sometimes even so then. There’s no point. I have seen “vanilla” (M-F, missionary) porn that focuses only on the genitals, breasts, arms of the “people” involved. I find this degrading to both parties. This is why: It is reductionary – people are more than just erogenous zones and impressive biceps.
I will concede, readily and with no subterfuge, that in our current culture the damage of any example of misogyny is far worse than misandry. If I am 10′ down a hole and someone drops a small rock on my face it will hurt, a lot. But if I am 60′ down a hole that same rock will probably kill me.
All of this is just to point out that yes – intent matters. Degradation and domination can come into anything. Bukkake seems to be one of those things. But it needn’t be the only reason to do it.

I will begin with an analogue (NSFW – explicit): [edited - no porn links on the 'chine, dude] (For now please focus on the “lotion” part – I am not an encyclopaedia and I just chose the first thing Google threw to me so I apologize that I couldn’t find “Excellent Lotion Average Body Shape 3″)
In reference to James’ comment about “making a mess” This is an example of what is called “lotion fetish”. Apparently you can even buy plastic jugs of this stuff. Even the men in this movie are covered in the lotion. In much the same way that I think men and women (disclaimer: my opinions as a bisexual may not match those of other “typical” – if such a thing exists – males) look especially hot with water dripping down their faces when they first break the surface of a pool I – and enough of a consumer base to warrant making a relatively large budget (lighting, CG, camerawork, etc) film – find the lotion look to be attractive.

I introduce now the fact that I have found cumshots attractive – bukkake rarely, because the actor usually looks horrified – if the actor appears to honestly be into it.
I enjoy it, if it is enjoyed (responsibly discussed beforehand). I enjoy taking a shot too. I am also one of those men whom Bean thankfully pointed out enjoys giving “mustache rides”. Sorry, I always think of SuperTroopers when sitting comes up, had to throw it in there.
I’ve read interviews with actors – male & female – who say that they don’t enjoy filming bukkake scenes, it’s annoying, it’s impersonal, it’s whatever. The women don’t like it, the “soup men” don’t like it – it’s just how they make a buck. Personally I find it annoying that with the exception of a niche market shoots always finish on the girl or the bottom.
I do take issue with the idea that an act can be universally misogynist just because it usually is. I will say “usually” in good faith here – it seems folks who know have already come to that conclusion. But I think that what is shown to us by “Excellent Lotion” (Or women in SportsIllustrated or men in the A&F summer catalogue) is that people think people are sexier when covered in fluids.

IF this is a true statement: “many people find people sexier when coated in fluids” (and please no one pull a physics professor on me right now, I know air is a fluid) then we have at least 1 opposing reason for the existence of the market beyond “men like to exercise power over others” and the sublimation of that idea.
To expand beyond my sex: At least one of my girlfriend’s has enjoyed the way I look with my face drippy, and other female friends have raised the point (a small sample size, but I don’t sit around discussing intimacies with everyone on the street) so I don’t think it’s an exclusively male interest (fluid-based facial sheen). I have also seen lesbian films where women take it on the face and films where men take it on the face (from women, natch). This is a small part of the market, admittedly, but it’s larger – probably – than the market share for people having sex in custard. I also have a problem with some of the things my OS does, but I’m not likely to make (or record in this case) my own, so I have to go with what is available.

Operating under the not-wholly-unsupported premise that “many people find people sexier when coated in fluids” we have what was asked of James (and which I felt he answered, though not directly enough I assume – which is why I’m taking such care, in making mention of people having sex in custard): an alternative source for bukkake to misogyny.
AGAIN: This does not mean that most or damn-near all bukkake is not done as an exercise in denigration – I am simply responding to your point, ND, that the onus was upon us to provide an alternative by providing an alternative.

Therefore if SOME bukkake (or cumshots, or blowjobs in reference to Truth’s 10/21 statement: “I’m shaming the MEN who think it’s amusing to get their glue-like bodily fluids in my hair, eyes, or mouth.”) are the result of something besides denigration I do not think one can say “all bukkake are misogynist”.
I happen to enjoy glue-like fluids in my mouth, by the way. As to why it’s amusing to have glue-like fluids in another person’s mouth: I think you’re thinking a step too far, which is to say, one step past “orgasms feel good”.

Now we should probably examine what would cause someone to think – scratch that – desire ejaculating or “going” all over someone’s face, chest, stomach, etc.
1) Let’s go out on a limb and assume that most people first experience orgasm by themselves. In men (and I would assume women as well, but we’ll stick with men as the common perpetrators/donators in a bukkake scene) that winds up with apparent, visceral evidence of orgasm. It doesn’t seem too far fetched that this is why people enjoy facials and permutations thereof. Provided Pavlov* wasn’t an idiot of course.
2) Provided you’re “doing it right” sex will usually result in all parties involved getting pretty sweaty. Perhaps the urge to “make a mess” comes from here and simply manifests itself in a variety of ways – custard for some folks, cum for others.
3) Other reasons: I don’t really have any other reasons, but a past girlfriend would, from cowgirl or my face occasionally jump off me and grind against my abs as she orgasmed. I don’t know why – I didn’t think about it too much because she was clearly enjoying herself and I was enjoying myself. Point being perhaps sexuality is just too complicated to always figure out.

Perhaps it’s a combination of reasons (in differing amounts) in everyone. I don’t know. This is just my example of how bukkake might not be SOLELY an example of misogyny. If you take issue with my logic please point it out I would honestly like to know where I’ve broken down along the way so I can fix it and arrive at a more accurate conclusion.

Also I have noticed that there are at least two strands going on here: The sex-pos people SEEM to be objecting to the fact that someone is trying to limit what can be sexy and expanding “bukkake” into “anything that isn’t missionary sex for procreative purposes”. The rad-fems SEEM to be focusing solely on bukkake and not noticing that the sex-pos are not defending “bukkake” per se, but rather the right of people to enjoy what they enjoy without being told that they’ve been brainwashed/sublimated.

In response to something James said: I don’t think it’s possible for men to be feminists because we are not female. We can be all for equality, etc, and if you were to draw it up on Venn diagrams they could overlap nigh-perfectly, but less DNA on 23 means we can be egalitarians at best and never get to the 6th letter. We do not have the experiential pre-reqs.

Lastly: If Ren is still around perhaps she can confirm this but the interview I read (years ago, in college) said that the “soup men” made a pittance compared to the women. Not that the women made a whole lot either, but it seems to be an unsubstantiated rumor that female “talent” makes more than male talent in the industry.

*There are probably others who’ve done similar experiments, but my occasional perusal of “PopPsy” does not make me an expert on the subject.

An aside: I would have written “people like to exercise power over others” earlier but comments like that get you labeled “MRA” (which I had to wiki, mind you) after which no one can be bothered to even look at you. I pray that no one labels me an MRA for bringing up, however briefly, the effects of porn on male self-image (something men are well-qualified to address) and for daring to tread into the women’s part of the sandbox.

I guess facials are a turn on in a similar way to seeing hickies on someone’s neck; it implies that they’re sexually active and proud.