I don’t mean to be a “slagg-ass shrew” or anything…

… but is it really appropriate, when trying to tell a feminist that she’s not a feminist, to tell her that her opinions are the result of “rape trauma” (which you’ve got no idea whether is even the case) and to toss gendered insults around? Because that’s what some fucking dumbass called Keori did over at Natalia Antonova’s place.  And is it just me, or does it sound like someone’s making light of rape trauma and reducing fairly massive swathes of radical feminist theory to “hysteria”? She even called me frigid and told me that I should suck her strap-on in hell (which is derivative anyway; she stole it from Ren). I’m just saying, dude.

Alright, enough of this high school bullshit.

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89 thoughts on “I don’t mean to be a “slagg-ass shrew” or anything…

  1. There are a shocking number of people suffering from arrested development on the interwebs.
    They seem to live in terror that a discussion might break out that they will have no part in.

    Also, too, and besides, I would add, that if you use misogynistic language to tell a feminist that they are not a feminist, it becomes readily apparent who is a feminist and who is playing at being one on the interwebs.


      1. Of course, throwing a tantrum like Keori just did – is a sure-ass way of getting the attention she craves.

        Oh well faux-rebellion and shock tactics, let’s hope she grows out of it, or not, as the case may be. zzzZZZzzz

        It’s the arrested development on a hangover from OMG I’m SOO angry at my parents that gets me.


        1. And another thing. What is the story with people who assume that they are the central character in your life story?
          What is up with that shit. Please pardon my ageist attitude when I ask if they are too young or too willfully ignorant to have a clue.


          1. Everyone is the center of the universe until they grow up, but some people never manage. I’m guessing she’ll be pretty embarrassed about this one at some point down the road. Or not.


      2. I was describing the behavior of the commenter who identified themselves a keori.
        I do not consider “fucking dumbass” to be misogynist language. Do you?


  2. Lol, wut? Yeah, apparently you really hate teh gayz Nine Deuce. Because you don’t treat anyone with kiddy gloves and watch out for their fee-fees and instead to question the manifestations of patriarchy in sex with logic. Oh the horrors.

    Seriously, just because I’m gay doesn’t mean I get a free pass on whatever deviant shit I want to get up to and call it “liberating” like I’m doing anything but talking out my asshole. My sexuality isn’t “special”. It’s fucking insulting that it’s being squared off in the corner. As soon as the boners are whipped out, gotta turn off the social critique. I thought that we established “the person is political” 50 years ago? Fuck me, I must have been hallucinating when I read all that edumacated feminist philosophy bullshit.

    Your identity doesn’t get to be oppressed, that’s bullshit. Part and parcel of analytical feminism, however, is taking human choices, thoughts, and actions and dissecting them into bite size pieces, contemplating their taste, and then throwing them away if they taste like shit. Last time I checked, not every fucking choice I do is my damn identity. Hey man, I took a piss two hours ago. Do I get a special badge and free pass from critique even though I missed the toilet and pissed out the window on your flowers instead?

    Plus, every time someone compares some injustices or a valid social social critique with manifestation of oppression they sound like enormous fucking douchebags, and they undermine the entirety of movements that seek to define and deconstruct oppression.


    1. Hey man, I took a piss two hours ago. Do I get a special badge and free pass from critique even though I missed the toilet and pissed out the window on your flowers instead?



      1. Hey man, I took a piss two hours ago. Do I get a special badge and free pass from critique even though I missed the toilet and pissed out the window on your flowers instead?

        It depends. Did the flowers consent to being pissed on? If so, then you’re good to go.


        1. Not only did the flowers consent, but they were on my blog earlier defending Jenn’s right to piss on them and telling me I’m a racist because I said I thought piss stunted flowers’ growth.


          1. Lulz. You just hate my pissing 9-2, you homophobe. If you had your way, you big meany, then everyone would have to install Big Brother’s cameras in their houses so the government can monitor their pissing for deviances!


              1. Good thing I abstain all myself from the cock, otherwise my inadvertent spawn—bless their little potentially brain-damaged heads—would be seized by the rad fem state and made to recite mantras when they do horribly dirty things like think about touching themselves.

                You sex-negative prude, you.


  3. Wow, that comment was pretty egregious.

    Also, why do I never get invited to the strap-on sucking? (Maybe I need to be more inflammatory.)


  4. Oh lulz. I read both posts. The first was more of the same strawmen crap, and the second LJ post was so hysterically hypocritical that I wish the world was enlightened enough that I could make a ironic shirt and have it be interpreted as irony.

    “Says the feminist: suck my strap on in hell”.

    Yes, because threatening someone with submission to the male phallus is so feminist of you. Gold star! I also liked how she included that request for patriarchal submission within an attempted definition of the notion of feminism without realizing how mutually exclusive those two ideas are.

    Somebody get some FAIL stickers over here, pronto.


        1. Fair enough, but the original use of the tag, as I recall, was Ren getting pissed off at Robert Jensen, so it’s not like she was making some comment on Women In General.


        1. Y’know, wrt this whole “oh wow, that was a disgusting curse” thing… I’m still wondering why so many of the feminists who get upset at things like “suck my strap-on in hell” don’t refrain from saying “fuck you.”

          I mean, “fuck you” isn’t wishing a gentle, consensual experience on those you’re cursing, now is it? It’s basically “go get raped.” Yet “suck my strap-on in hell” is… worse?

          For being more colorful, perhaps?

          I find it kind of… grimly amusing… that someone’s angry that she got told “suck my strap-on in hell” but is still doing the “grow up!” thing over people not liking “Go kill yourselves.”

          Double standards, whee!


              1. It’s interesting how “men receiving penetration” is something people *never seem to think of*, isn’t it?

                Especially given that you were annoyed at a dude the first time you used that curse… ;)


                1. I think aiming it at men is a way of feminizing them (feminizing in the sense of dehumanizing or humiliating, really) in the same way they do when they tell us to suck their dicks. I’m not into it at all.


                    1. I didn’t really think you did, but I know for sure Keori did, which is why I included that aside about her having ripped it off and using it in a much dumber, more misogynistic way.


                  1. Fair enough. My point though is everyone in these conversations seem to be OK with curses that others aren’t. Not so much that there’s nothing to find creepy about in the curse.

                    And I still find it really funny that I’ve never seen feminists examine why we all use “fuck” and “fuck you” as a curse. I mean, that one’s totally, obviously patriarchal.


                    1. I disagree. “Fuck you” has lost almost all connection with sex, just as “motherfucker” has lost the connection with accusing someone of fucking their mother. I think they’re just things people fling around to illustrate and emphasize anger. I certainly am not thinking of either when I use those terms.


                    2. ““Fuck you” has lost almost all connection with sex, just as “motherfucker” has lost the connection with accusing someone of fucking their mother. I think they’re just things people fling around to illustrate and emphasize anger. I certainly am not thinking of either when I use those terms.”

                      Actually ND, I don’t disagree with you there.

                      It’s just that I tend to think things lose connotations much more readily than a lot of radical feminists do. Like this whole thing — I don’t think BDSM desires came from patriarchy, but even if they did I don’t think they reference or reify it any more than I would if I said “Fuck Keori for saying such vile shit.”

                      The thing I find odd is that, well, I find my position (“origin of some things doesn’t matter — and I don’t think we know it anyway”) more consistent than what you’re saying now (“these things I like aren’t patriarchal any more; that thing you like probably always will be.”)


                    3. You don’t think a woman calling a man “master” is a little more obviously patriarchal than me yelling “fuck you” at someone who cuts me off on the freeway? Consistency ought not lead to oversimplification.


                    4. No, I don’t, because I don’t think that all power dynamics are rooted in patriarchy, as I explained above. I don’t think the fact that some people take it that way (including some feminists influenced by bad theory from the ’80s) makes it the case that it is. People can be wrong. Especially people who are not involved, and who know little beyond what Craigslist tells them.


                    5. you’re right, trinity, not all power dynamics are rooted in patriarchy.

                      so forget sexism for a little bit.

                      let’s talk about “race play”, a genre of bdsm. it includes fun, playful, sexy, subversive things such as: ruling over black slaves; raping “nigger wenches”; using naturally subservient oriental geishas; beating latina maids for missing a spot when cleaning.

                      how about power dynamics of age? oh yes, age play. enacting a child molestation, where the adult sub gets to pretend s/he’s in kindergarden getting punished with an ass-fuck by the teacher.

                      ableism is a nice one too. amputee fetishism is not uncommon amongst doms/sadists. of course it’s healthy and positive to be attracted to an amputee when you see him/her as an equal human being. but doms/sadists turn amputees into a fetish. and it’s their (supposed) helplessness that is fetishized.

                      and homophobia… wouldn’t it be sexy to role play a couple of straight macho men raping a sissy little ‘fag’ as a punishment for being a queer little panzy-ass?

                      oh, the fun never ends with bdsm!

                      but hey, if it gets you off, who is anyone else to judge? i guess we were born that way, born loving oppression. let’s stop fighting to make the world equal… when we watch the autrocities on the news, let’s not get upset and try to change things. let’s just masturbate.


              1. So how does this differ from when teenagers tell me that when they call each other “gay” as an insult, they don’t mean it to mean homosexual?

                Why is it that we use our sexual organs as insults, but not other body parts? Have you ever called someone an elbow or an ear? Probably not- because we (as a society) don’t have a legacy of seeing those body parts as sinful/shameful/disgusting. Whether we’re intending to or not, when we use sexual terms, body parts and acts as pejoratives, we’re participating in a long history of denigrating and vilifying sexuality.

                In addition, when we use terms like “fuck you” to express anger towards someone, we model and reify those sex-negative attitudes. Even if it’s not our intention, it still reinforces the idea that to be fucked is to be reduced, to be less than. To take it a step further, it’s much more common to hear someone use”suck it” or “suck my dick” as an insult than it is to hear someone use”lick me” or “lick my clit” precisely because of the culturally defined equivalence between being penetrated and being less-than.

                The fact that some of us use these words so casually doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s no negative effect. After all, as I said, many people use “gay” as a pejorative and deny any link in their minds with homosexuals. But ask a queer person how it affects them and you’ll hear a different answer. I think that something similar can happen with “fuck you”.


                1. It isn’t outside the realm of possibility, but this is the first I’ve heard of anyone caring. I don’t think it’s sex-negative, either, because I’m not interested in “fucking.”


                2. As a totally unrelated aside, I used to tell people to “eat me” when I was teenager all the time. Obviously, I thought my lady parts were funny in the context of insulting someone.

                  Now that I’m all grown up (okay, I lied, sort of grown up with many relapses into residual immaturity for the sake of lulz), I more associate “eat me” with nice pleasurable activities. So I don’t ask people I dislike to do it.

                  Huh, I don’t think I ever consciously realized as much before. Funny how I subconsciously stopped using sex as an insult as soon as I figured out that it’s supposed to be mutually awesome, especially the more divorced from demeaning someone it is.


                    1. So where is the difference for you between calling someone gay as an insult and telling someone “suck my dick” or “fuck you” as an insult? Besides the obvious bit about queers being an oppressed minority, I mean.

                      The reason I ask is that the statement “that’s not what I mean when I use that word” is what I hear people say about using “gay” as an insult and it’s what I hear in 9-2’s statement “I think they’re just things people fling around to illustrate and emphasize anger. I certainly am not thinking of either when I use those terms.”

                      Just to be 100% transparent, I am NOT accusing 9-2 (or anyone else) of being homophobic. ;-) I am simply exploring the “that’s not what I mean” response.

                      When I do queer outreach, I run across the “that’s not what I mean when I call someone gay” response and I point out that even if you don’t mean it, gay people still hear it as an insult. And in any case, if we call something we dislike “gay”, we learn to associate being gay with being bad. I wonder if part of how we teach that to be fucked is bad comes from saying “fuck you” and “I’m so fucked”, just as I wonder if part of how we teach that our sexual organs are bad is by calling people we dislike dicks, cunts and assholes.


  5. “Yes, because threatening someone with submission to the male phallus is so feminist of you.”

    Absolutely! In a similar vein, I’m going to go around singing that old British classic ‘You’re going to get your fucking head kicked in’ to show passersby my dedication to nonviolence.

    And I think I’m going to suck a fruit polo in purgatory. Mmmm, green fruit polos…


  6. Keori is claiming that I’m using my rape trauma (can anyone point me to the place on this blog where I stated that I had or had not been raped?) to tell other people how to have sex. Sorry, but that’s fucking stupid, and it ain’t what I’ve said, ever. I realize that she may be too stupid to know that calling someone a shrew and telling me I’m frigid because I don’t want to be subjected to domination and pain removes her right to claim to be a feminist, but that doesn’t mean I’m so stupid as to rely on my own feelings as the sole basis for my arguments. In fact, I get shit all the time for not being willing to share personal information (that’s no one’s business).


  7. Yanno, I am astounded at how defensive people have gotten over this. The foaming at the mouth reaction, is a good indication as to why I never discussed my issues with this “lifestyle” to the friends that where knee-deep in it. Holy run-on sentences Batman!

    The speculating on your rape-survivor status was a low-blow. But then again, her and her ElJay friends are all part of some snark-community(no, I do not expect much from people who delight in Jerry Springer-like voyeurism)

    Yup, this is indeed some high-school bullshit. Damn, I can’t believe these people are older than me.


    1. Does it really surprise you that the discussion’s touched a nerve?

      I remember posting something to a politics/debate forum about the morality having kids- I was mostly there to stir shit up, but my contention was that because the superior option to adopt was available, it was immoral to have children, at least until every child in an orphanage is taken care of. Needless to say, I got lambasted. Questioning the morality of one’s sex life and identity tends to engender defensive responses. Doubly so when we tend to get the same from our family and the culture around us.


  8. ND! I see you have hung on, mainly by posting on the ‘halloween party that never ends’ BDSM people.

    Arent you married yet? Little Eight Deueces running round? I’ve become involved with feminism somehow, and am posting on Twistys thing, they love me over there. I feel like this was my feminism homeplace though. I have fond memories of you castrating rapists and stuff you know? Its a strange world when I feel nostalgic for YOU but I do, I hope you are well, you KNOW gare loves [email protected]


  9. “Fruit polo?” Is that what they’re called these days?

    Ok, so we have strap-ons and fruit polos, and…there’s a whole lotta things I don’t know about.

    Google…google…google…..OH MY!


  10. That Keori is a charmer – I told her that she didn’t know shit about me and to stop the speculating, and she told me she didn’t believe me, but that if I was an asshole and didn’t have the excuse of having been raped, then “double fuck off and die” to me.


  11. (including some feminists influenced by bad theory from the ’80s)

    You do realize that you’re on a radical feminist blog, and that we don’t accept the insinuation that we’re all a bunch of pseudo-conservative prudish fascists, right?


    1. Yeah, that was a lame, low-blow. Anyone who wants to call us reactionaries is either purposely pretending they don’t see the difference in approach or is a fool. I think Larry Flynt sucks. That doesn’t mean I have a Jerry Fallwell tattoo, you know? In fact, Larry Flynt and I agree that Jerry Fallwell was a shithead, but I hate Larry Flynt. They exhibit similarities (misogyny), and I exhibit similarities with each of them. I’m sure I exhibit a similarity with Ludacris, too, but I’m not a rapper any more than I’m a conservative just because a conservative or two happen to have a similar opinion about something (but have widely divergent opinions on the solution to the problem and on why it’s bad). It’s the straw man of the century and it’s now grounds for getting banned, y’all.


      1. Larry Flynt and Jerry Fallwell are actually pretty much the same deal. One cannot exist without the other. Pornography goes hand in hand with conservative ideas about women; without the right-wing idea that sex, and thereby also, women, are dirty and shameful, pornography would not have its thrill for men. Pornography is fundamentally conservative and reactionary. Both porn and right-wingers view women and sex as shameful; both view women as flesh to be used by men, both reduce women to their biological parts.

        I believe the same is the same with BDSM too; without conservative conflation of sexual feelings with mastery over another, and with dirt and shame, BDSM would not be sexy.


        1. I can see the difference between them, though they are part of the same deal. The thing is, I’m not part of the same deal with any of these dicks, so the comparison is even more egregious.


      2. Wait, can you explain how saying that I think that what you say isn’t all that different from what radical feminists said in the first iteration of the sex wars is calling you “reactionary?”

        I mean, I think they were wrong, and I don’t think your theory is all that different from theirs, so I’m calling you both *wrong*… but I’m not sure what you take exception to in their theory, such that you’d see being compared to them to being compared to Falwell.


        1. If you can’t tell the difference between a feminist critique of a practice aimed in patriarchy and a critique based in religious bullshit, I don’t know what to tell you. It might be emotion, but the emotion is empathy, and that’s a perfectly fine emotion to base a moral argument on.


          1. ND: I said nothing about religious anything. “Bad theory from the 80s” = the theory in _Against Sadomasochism: A Radical Feminist Analysis_, which your posts are pretty much a snarky update to.

            What are you talking about?


            1. You didn’t make the book you were talking about clear. I’ve never read that book, because I don’t have time to read books about anything but what I’m studying in school. As to whether my posts sound like that book, I dunno.


            2. Oh, and my “theory” isn’t bad. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say, “You have the right to do this and not get into trouble/be fucked with for it, but I have the right to tell you and everyone else that it’s rooted in patriarchy and oppressive social hierarchies.” Are we in some kind of contest for the people’s minds? If so, don’t let me worry you, because everyone seems to be on the side of sex+violence=super boner these days.


              1. ND —

                Would you like me to send you my undergrad thesis on this stuff? I don’t get why you take such offense to my saying that I believe a body of theory is bad, and argue for my beliefs. It just doesn’t make any sense to me that you’d take that so personally.

                I do think it’s bad theory, because I think that the conclusion that BDSM is rooted in patriarchy is wrong. I’ve explained based on experience, I’ve appealed to studies, I’ve offered several possible alternative explanations. You haven’t responded with much, besides the (fair) response that you did more than look on Craigslist. Yet I’m not supposed to say that the theory/strain of feminist thought that leads directly to the kinds of things you’re saying is sloppy and imprecise?

                Give me a break.


    2. “You do realize that you’re on a radical feminist blog, and that we don’t accept the insinuation that we’re all a bunch of pseudo-conservative prudish fascists, right?”

      Um, I don’t see how saying that I wasn’t impressed with the arguments in _Against Sadomasochism_ and the like, and that I see arguments like the one ND is making here as only slightly updated versions of them, is calling you “a bunch of pseudo-conservative prudish fascists.”

      Unless you’re saying that the women who contributed to that book are prudish in your view. I’d say “mis-analyzing BDSM” and in A FEW cases “calling emotional reactions good theory,” but… fascists? What? Where are you getting this?


      1. And even in the cases where I would say there’s too much emotion in it, there’s actually a long tradition in feminist theory of trying to find ways to theorize in ways informed by emotion. I came to the conclusion that was usually a dead end, but it took me a couple years to get there.

        So yeah, again, I’m saying you’re wrong, but I’m not sure why the response is so violent.


  12. Many “feminists” like the NOW president, think actions against the oppression of Muslim women are racist and to speak about Islam’s Supremacy is xenophobic. They wont allow such talk on their blogs. They delete the comments of women who support, by attacking patriarchal theocracies, the Muslim women’s liberation movement . If you do not agree with those women, please stand in global solidarity with the women who are slaves under Islam and demand that US forein policysupport them in their efforts to gain equality and security.

    International Women’s Day Action

    Global Gender Caste Action

    Please tell your friends about the petition.

    To: U.S. Government and United Nations

    We call upon America’s government representatives and the international representatives of the United Nations to recognize the global threat of oppression and violence to women from Islamist supremacism.

    We demand that they pass national and international resolutions condemning Islamic supremacist as a threat to women everywhere. We demand that these world leaders recognize the existence of Islamic supremacism, and we demand that they take measures to protect the women of the world from the Islamic supremacist ideology.

    Women are being oppressed, beaten, murdered in America and around the world in the name of Islamic supremacism. Being “sorry” is not enough. We call upon the leaders of the world to take responsibility to SAVE WOMEN NOW from this cruel, vicious, and deadly ideology of Islamic supremacism.

    Sign Here

    Read more about the action involving 2 marches – in London and Wash DC here:



  13. For all those people who are confused about the BDSM/homophobia debate, can I stray off topic slightly and reiterate the difference:

    Being homosexual is not intrinsically harmful. Nailing somone’s penis to a board, as the gay men involved in the celebrated ‘operation spanner’ case did, is intrinsically harmful.

    That is the difference

    Furthermore – practising BDSM is not, and never has been illegal in the UK (actual bodily harm IS illegal, but we are always being told that BDSM is just fun that involves tying people up with silk scarves and nobody gets hurt).

    Being a male homosexual, on the contrary was illegal in the UK until the latter half of the twentieth century.

    I thank you.


  14. And I haven’t followed the whole thing BUT.

    Talking explicitly about one’s sex life (no matter what that sex life is) in the workplace is inappropriate and harassment of one’s co-workers. Merely stating that you are gay/lesbian is not talking explicitly about your sex life.


  15. speaking of rape trauma, there is a statistically significant correlation between being a victim of childhood sexual abuse and being sexually aroused by bdsm type fantasies.

    A path model: The direct and indirect effects of feminist beliefs and childhood sexual abuse on women’s sexual fantasies
    by Shulman, Julie Lynn, Ph.D., The University of Memphis, 2003, 89 pages; AAT 3095681

    so if anyone’s rape trauma is impacting their opinions…

    i’m not pointing this out to be rude, or as any sort of retaliation. i’m pointing this out due to a deep, and genuine concern for those who are re-enacting traumas and blocking their progress of healing, or perhaps even deepening the damage.


  16. As far as I recall I’ve never been raped, but wouldn’t having been raped give some credibility to feminist arguments? It’s strange in a not-so-pleasant way that cocks like this think that having been raped means that you have nothing to add to a discussion of feminism or rape (yes, I have actually had the misfortune to witness the latter).


  17. (only relevant to some comments above)
    I’ve always taken curses like “f*** you” literally, even though I sometimes say “f***” myself when suddenly injured. As a kid, such words grossed me out; as a grown feminist, sexual insults still make me uncomfortable. Taken at face value, I think the f-word *is* insultingly feminizing, because I think it implies the physical use of a penis in any available orifice and somehow this is supposed to have to do with women (I refuse to understand why). But people obviously don’t mean the f-word that way, because occasionally I point out to them the literal images that they have conjured up in my mind, and they are more grossed out than I.


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