I’ve noticed, because I can read, that there are an awful lot more women out there fighting for women’s “right” to get naked, get fucked, and have the whole thing taped than there are men doing so. Why might that be? Every time I get into a conversation about sex positivism or third wavism (coinage!) with a group of people (that doesn’t include any radical feminists), the men (even the ones who use porn) seem more likely, if they’re being honest, to agree with me that porn and prostitution exist in inherent conflict with feminism, whereas the women want to tell me I’m blowing it as a feminist because I’m excluding women who engage in sex work from feminism. I’ve even met a few women who have told me that I’m worse than men are because I’m trying to tell them what to do, because I’m trying to limit their choices, as opposed to the men, who are all about letting them exercise their freedom and express their sexuality. That’s a real knee slapper.
Where are the men who want to argue vociferously for women’s “right” to participate in their own exploitation? Where are the men clambering to convince me that (women) getting naked for money is empowering? Where are all the dudes who want to tell me that feminism is about “choice” and that women who are making the “choice” to suck a bunch of dicks for money are leading the charge toward some future utopia in which women will be safe, free, and human? Not many of these men exist, because most men know that they’d have a hard time keeping a straight face while making such claims. So why are women making the claim for them?
As stupid as I think most (MOST - calm down) men are, it’s pretty goddamn brilliant that they’ve gotten women to run around fighting the porn/prostitution battle for them. “Sex-positive” “feminists” are the greatest allies men have ever had in their quest for ever more unfettered access to women’s bodies and a free pass to degrade and abuse women. I mean, if you can get a few women to acquiesce to your porn fantasies and call it a feminist choice, you’re the fucking man, right? You don’t have to claim responsibility for the damage caused to some women because you’ve got a few other women who will call the women hurt by your support for the sex industry anti-woman and anti-sex. Fuck yeah!
I’ve had untold numbers of dudes make comments to me that let me know how men really see sex positivism. One example: some asshole, in trying to belittle my blog and feminism in general, commented, “Get off the internet. But if you’re one of those sex-positive types, I do oral.” Mmmhmm.
Most men love sex positivism and hate radical feminism. That should tell us something.
There are some ethical issues involved in sex work of all kinds. Performing sex acts for money isn’t apolitical, and it doesn’t take place in a vacuum. Women who participate in sex work and run around telling people that it’s a “choice” and that it’s “empowering” and that it’s somehow a feminist act have an effect on other women’s lives, whether they like it or not. They shove a detour into feminist discourse and make it possible for the public to ignore the chief problems women still face while they’re arguing about whether pole dancing is what feminism is all about.
But, apparently, asking someone to think about something is akin to telling them they’re worthless and have no agency, according to the sex-positive types I’ve been reading. Well, I’m not doing that, and I expect people to discuss things like rational adults, not get all whiny because they are uncomfortable with the issues my questions raise.
I want to say first that this post is in no way directed toward women who are unwillingly involved in sex work, but rather toward women who conceive of sex work as a choice, and a feminist one at that. I have said this before and I’ll say it again now: I’m not here to take pity on “choice” sex workers for not “getting” what I “get.” I understand that we all live under the same oppressive system, that we get by in whatever ways we can, and that we all face different obstacles and have different priorities. I’m not calling sex workers sellouts, I’m not saying they’re deluded, and I’m not going to decide the consent issue for them. But I, unlike many purportedly pro-sex-worker feminists, will not patronize “choice” sex workers or their advocates or treat them like babies by refusing to ask them to explain their positions (pisaquaririse brought my attention to that tendency, which I thank her for because it helped me tremendously as I formulated this post).
With that out of the way, I’m inviting anyone who calls her/himself a sex-positive feminist or who refers to sex work as a feminist choice to answer the following questions, and I promise to be fair, civil, and reasonable in discussing them:
- Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture? If so, what would the sex industry look like in a world in which women were seen as possessing the same humanity men do?
- Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives (obviously some sex workers suffer abuse, but I am referring to women outside the sex industry here)? If not, why not? If so, does any of the responsibility for that lie with sex workers, or does it lie solely with the producers and pimps? Or somewhere else?
- Why aren’t there more men out there arguing for women’s “right” to participate in sex work? What do you make of the fact that very few men call sex work a feminist choice? I’d also be happy to discuss the arguments of men who do make such a claim.
- Can women like Jenna Jameson be considered feminists for taking leadership roles in the production of pornography? Why or why not? If the answer is yes, how can we reconcile the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives with referring to a producer of mainstream pornography as a feminist?
- How can sex work empower individual women when it requires that women submit to being objectified and performing acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them?
- Alternatively, if one genuinely enjoys something and gets paid for it, does it become a feminist act?
- In other words, does feminism exist to advance the cause of women as a whole or for individual women to use as a justification for their personal choices?
- If sex work is a valid, feminist choice for individual women, what are we to make of women who say that their participation in sex work resulted from their dire poverty, drug addiction, etc. being exploited by pimps and porn producers?
- I see sex work as a reductionist commodification of human sexuality. Do you think that the reduction of sex to a commodity has a negative effect on our ability to explore and express the potential of human sexuality? If not, why not?
- If you’re a sex-positive dude, tell me why. Why are you in such a huff to help women out? And why does it manifest as sex positivism? Why is your desire to help women out limited to arguing for their “right” to serve you sexually?
I realize I’m asking a lot of big questions and that I’m leaving a lot out. Please feel free to bring up anything you think germane, and to pick and choose what to address. I also realize that I’ve framed the debate, but I don’t care. I’ve wanted the answers to these questions for a long time, and I have to pose the questions if I’m going to get the answers I seek. You see, these questions stem not from a desire to trap anyone, but from my own honest sticking points when I think about what I’ve seen of the sex-positive position.
296 Comments
July 27, 2008 at 10:23 pm
“Where are the men who want to convince me that getting naked for money is empowering? Where are all the dudes who want to tell me that feminism is about “choice” and that women who are making the “choice” to suck a bunch of dicks for money are leading the charge toward some future utopia in which women are safe, free, and human?”
Trolling the schoolyard for 12 year old “girlfriends” to condition, would be my guess. Oh, and the highway for runaways who have already been conditioned by their fathers, uncles, and brothers.
July 27, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Funny thing is, I run into lots and lots of men that call stripping “empowering” and all sorts of things in my circle of liberal dudez. Just start frequenting some liberal or libertarian (yuck on the second) circles and watch the men go around frothing at the mouth exclaiming the word “choice!” over and over. My experience is that the women give me shit for being too “abrasive” and the men go on and on about choices and how I’m a horrible person for enfantilizing men or women, depending on their point.
July 27, 2008 at 11:17 pm
I know they exist, but they’re usually a lot less vocal about it than the women are, at least on blogs. I’ve had plenty of dudes tell me that sex work is a choice, but they are usually doing so as a way to show their disapproval (even though they consume the product) rather than argue that it amounts to feminism. I think most of them know it’s disingenuous to claim that sex work is a feminist choice, not that that will always keep them from saying they think it is to get chicks to get naked.
July 27, 2008 at 11:58 pm
[...] 28, 2008 · No Comments ….this one’s for [...]
July 28, 2008 at 12:53 am
Most men are quiet about sex positivism because they know that when they go to a strip club with their friends, they’re not thinking about how empowered the strippers are but that they’re sluts/whores/etc. If the sex positive feminists actually stopped to think about what the vast majority of men feel about female sex workers, they may be less likely to dry hump guys for money.
July 28, 2008 at 2:25 am
Excellent post, Nine. :)
I believe that feminism is not only about choice but also about being able to analyze the circumstances within which women make choices, and recognizing how women’s choices are somehow limited in a patriarchy. And also it is about being able to recognize how pornified cultures trains young girls & women to be sexually accessible for men’s use and, sometimes, abuse.
The ’sex poz’/pro-pornstitution dudes, they are very glad that pro-porn women are the ’smokescreen’ to conceal them and thus protect their beloved ’sex’ industry. They are totally happy that some women are willing to defend commodified misogyny in the name of ‘feminism’. This way, ’sex poz’ men can use those pro-porn women as proxies to attack radical feminists.
And, trust me, Nine, the ’sex poz’ dudes are there. You can sometimes hear them cheering in the background of pro-pornstitution “feminism”. These dudes are glad that they can rest easy because their and other men’s use of porn and prostitutes remain (mostly) hidden or protected and the patriarchal status quo is being maintained.
The men love it ’cause pro-pornstitution “feminism” is not only sheer capitulation to the status quo, it also means truly embracing male supremacy, which is exactly what the menz want!
I like the set of questions you wrote in your post, Nine. These are truly challenging. :)
conditioned by their fathers, uncles, and brothers
Yep, thebewilderness, as usual.
SSDDIP= Same Shit, Different Day In Patriarchy.
July 28, 2008 at 4:45 am
Deuce, are you familiar with battered person syndrome? I imagine that many sex-positive feminists suffer from it. It would be an absolute textbook case for a person to go into sex work and celebrate how empowering it was after a rape or a history of child sexual abuse. More and more studies continue to suggest that childhood sex abuse is frighteningly common, so I wouldn’t be surprised that many young girls are getting conditioned into being sex-positive feminists.
I can’t possibly speak as to how many sex-positive feminists are working through psychological issues, because of course there are just some who philosophically arrived at the idea. I would imagine that it would mostly be the ones who get defensive and lash out at anyone who dares to apply feminist analysis to sex work.
Although, I’ve never actually met a sex-positive feminist anywhere off the internet. I did stripping in both the US and Europe and never met a single sex worker who was in denial about how horrible it was. In fact, it’s pretty much status quo in the world of sex work to talk bluntly and openly about how much you hate yourself and need the sex work in order to punish yourself.
As a side note, I’m reminded of this article from The Onion:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30548
July 28, 2008 at 5:38 am
I’ve met non-sex workers who want to tell me how empowering sex work can be, and I always ask them why they aren’t out doing it themselves, to which they usually have no adequate reply.
I just want one “choice” sex worker tell me the truth, that they know that sex work is anti-feminist but that they care more about money than they do about feminism.
That article was hilarious.
July 28, 2008 at 7:33 am
Honest answers from a man. Enjoy.
* Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture? If so, what would the sex industry look like in a world in which women were seen as possessing the same humanity men do?
—I think our culture is sick in many ways, but to call it “mysoginistic” is oversimplistic. The fact is that we are anti-male in some ways, anti-female in others. Nobody but those who inhabit the top echelons of our society are really benefiting from this.
That said, the sex industry in a rational, free society would be respected like any other, and those who participate in it would be treated like legitimate servicewomen/men rather than dirty secrets or subhumans to exercise our power trip desires on.
* Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives (obviously some sex workers suffer abuse, but I am referring to women outside the sex industry here)? If not, why not? If so, does any of the responsibility for that lie with sex workers, or does it lie solely with the producers and pimps? Or somewhere else?
—In its current form, yes. I think that addiction to porn prevents men from effectively and productively communicating with females, and tends to instill the madonna/whore complex you talk about. This isn’t the NECESSARY outcome of a person’s consumption of sex industry products, but in our schizophrenic society, it too often does.
* Why aren’t there more men out there arguing for women’s “right” to participate in sex work? What do you make of the fact that very few men call sex work a feminist choice? I’d also be happy to discuss the arguments of men who do make such a claim.
—Because most men don’t really think about the issue either way. They purchase the goods for a quick pleasure fix without philosophizing about it. See, men are more compartmental in their thinking than women; we can tell dirty jokes all day, get drunk at a strip club, then go home to our wives whom we genuinely love and respect. Our thoughts and actions aren’t quite so integrated as they are in the female mind. I know that the gender essentialist assumption this point is based on is something you don’t share, but it’s true.
* Can women like Jenna Jameson can be considered feminists for taking leadership roles in the production of pornography? Why or why not? If the answer is yes, how can we reconcile the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives with referring to a producer of mainstream pornography as a feminist?
—Feminism, as I understand it, is an emphasis on issues directly impacting women within whatever worldview the individual is operating in. Since I don’t think the sex industry is necessarily harmful to women, yes, Jenna Jameson can be a feminist if her goal is to make it into a legitimate, respected service. If sex positive feminists are simply trying to justify the industry as is, then no I don’t.
* How can sex work empower individual women when it requires that women submit to being objectified and performing acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them?
—You take a rather extreme view of what constitutes “objectification.” Admiring a woman’s naked body is not objectification anymore than admiring Stephen Hawking’s mind. In both cases you are paying someone to provide a service; sexual stimulation in the former case, knowledge in the latter. There is nothing wrong with only being interested in a specific aspect of someone, so long as you don’t see that person (and those of that person’s group) as being ONLY that one thing.
As for women lacking a “genuine desire” to do certain things, nobody really wants to perform every act their jobs require. When I eat at a restaurant, I don’t particularly care if the waiter/waitress is serving me out of love for the job or simple economic necessity; I’m paying him/her for a service, that’s it.
* Alternatively, if one genuinely enjoys something and gets paid for it, does it become a feminist act?
—If one is treated like a human being (and no, being sexual with someone is not dehumanizing), then yes, I suppose.
* In other words, does feminism exist to advance the cause of women as a whole or for individual women to use as a justification for their personal choices?
—Feminism exists to ensure respect for women as human beings and alter aspects of our society that denigrate them. But, in YOUR worldview, a man only being attracted to a woman’s body rather than her mind is itself harmful to the cause of women. I don’t share it, so we can’t see eye to eye on this.
* If sex work is a valid, feminist choice, what are we to make of women who say that their participation in sex work resulted from dire poverty, drug addiction, etc.?
—Many career choices are made out of economic necessity rather than genuine desire. No child dreams of being a claims adjuster who atrophies in a cubicle all day. That said, drug addiction and poverty are seperate issues from sex work that need to be dealt with. They aren’t particularly relevant to this issue.
* I see sex work as a reductionist commodification of human sexuality. Do you think that the reduction of sex to a commodity has a negative effect on our ability to explore and express the potential of human sexuality? If not, why not?
—It depends. If your primary source of stimulation comes from commodified sex, your ability to explore real sexuality will be impaired. Sex as a commodity is to a relationship as cotton candy and McDonalds are to food: a source of temporary pleasure to be enjoyed in moderation, but not something you can sustain yourself on, or derive any lasting joy or contentment from.
* If you’re a sex-positive dude, tell me why. Why are you in such a huff to help women out? And why does it manifest as sex positivism? Why is your desire to help women out limited to arguing for their “right” to serve you sexually?
—I’m not really a “sex positive” dude, in that I don’t pretend that the sex industry IN ITS CURRENT FORM is beneficial for many people. But this all takes place within the context of a culture heavily influenced by Christianity. I take a more pagan outlook: sex is a natural part of life, and ought to be respected as such. Thus, a woman who chooses to provide stimulation for money is to be respected like anyone else; she may be a prostitute, but I would never call her a “whore.” I don’t have the repressive squeamishness or morbid obsession with it that traditional Christian mores have left most people with, and therefore, the problem as I see it is not that sex work exists but that those who work it are viewed as rent-a-harem-girls rather than equals.
Again, you don’t understand how men can drool over a woman’s body (and at that time only her body) and still respect women in general as equals. I don’t fault you for this, because that’s a difficult concept for most women to wrap their heads around. It’s OK though, because these differences between men and women are what make us interesting. As long as we’re willing to communicate honestly and openly, we’ll be fine.
But hey, we live in world that instills in us obscenely shallow conceptions of masculinity and femininity; who wants open communication? ;)
July 28, 2008 at 8:30 am
Great post, Nine. x
(please delete my last comment- it was meant to be posted at Witchy’s which was in my other browser window. Thanks!)
July 28, 2008 at 8:54 am
Ok, I’ll bite. I do not consider myself an expert on this subject, but these are my guesses from what I have read:
Q: Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture?
A: My guess would be yes, though probably not as many.
Q: If so, what would the sex industry look like in a world in which women were seen as possessing the same humanity men do?
A: The absolute right to say “no” in any situation would be recognized.
Having a job in the sex industry would not be used against accusers in rape trials (if rape still existed in such a culture), nor would it be used as a reason to dismiss women from jobs such as teaching (such a situation was recounted in a recent issue of $pread magazine.)
If a prostitute was raped on the job, she would be more likely to press charges and win the court case.
Strip club owners would find it harder to make strippers pay fees out of their tips in places where doing so is illegal, meaning that strippers would not have to sue to get their money back (as has happened in a few places.)
As for subject matter in porn, there might be less misogynistic content.
Q:Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives (obviously some sex workers suffer abuse, but I am referring to women outside the sex industry here)?
A: Possibly. However, I think the bigger issue is how women’s sexuality is viewed by society in general. I think sex workers often see the uglier side of our society and its views on women’s sexuality because they are visible as sexual women. I think they are treated how all of us would be treated if society thought of us all as sexual beings who didn’t conform to “acceptable” forms of sexuality.
Q: If so, does any of the responsibility for that lie with sex workers, or does it lie solely with the producers and pimps? Or somewhere else?
A: It lies with everyone who has ever looked down on another person solely because of her/his sexuality, which in this society is most of us.
Q: Why aren’t there more men out there arguing for women’s “right” to participate in sex work? What do you make of the fact that very few men call sex work a feminist choice?
A: If this is true, I think it is because the men do not want to be seen as sleezebags who don’t respect women, which is how a lot of people see men who do argue the above.
Q: Can women like Jenna Jameson can be considered feminists for taking leadership roles in the production of pornography?
A: In my opinion, there is one thing that defines a feminist, and that is the belief in equality between the sexes. If you are asking if the taking of those roles can be considered a feminist act, my answer is only if the porn in question challenges cultural assumptions about gender (and, of course, does not involve coercion of any of the people involved.)
Q: If the answer is yes, how can we reconcile the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives with referring to a producer of mainstream pornography as a feminist?
A: See my answer to the second question.
Q: How can sex work empower individual women when it requires that women submit to being objectified and performing acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them?
A: I do not think that sex work is inherently empowering, I just do not think that women who do it, out of free choice or not, deserve to be disrespected for it.
Q: Alternatively, if one genuinely enjoys something and gets paid for it, does it become a feminist act?
A: No. Did someone say it does?
Q: In other words, does feminism exist to advance the cause of women as a whole or for individual women to use as a justification for their personal choices?
A: The former, though I think some feminists need to walk a mile in other women’s shoes before judging their personal choices.
Q: If sex work is a valid, feminist choice, what are we to make of women who say that their participation in sex work resulted from dire poverty, drug addiction, etc.?
A: I think it CAN be a valid (I am assuming you mean free from coercion), and under some conditions feminist choice. Not that it ALWAYS is.
The real argument between the feuding sides when it comes to these cases is finding the best solutions.
Q: I see sex work as a reductionist commodification of human sexuality. Do you think that the reduction of sex to a commodity has a negative effect on our ability to explore and express the potential of human sexuality? If not, why not?
A: I don’t know. If so, I think it can be countered with a bit of rebellion and creativity. Either way, it’s not my biggest concern on the issue of the sex industry.
July 28, 2008 at 9:05 am
And now a question for you. In your post you said this:
“I’ve had untold numbers of dudes make comments to me that let me know how men really see sex positivism. One example: some asshole, in trying to belittle my blog and feminism in general, commented, “Get off the internet. But if you’re one of those sex-positive types, I do oral.” Mmmhmm.”
These guys sound like jerks and idiots. They are certainly not the kind of people I respect. You do not seem to respect them either, and yet you are treating them as the foremost authority on us. Why is that?
Does it occur to you that what they are really just calling us sluts, the same way they would call you ugly man haters?
They do not “love sex positive feminism,” they are just using a standard sexist insult against us, and you are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
July 28, 2008 at 11:22 am
Because men are already “sex positive” by cultural default. It’s not an issue for them. Of course they want women making the right choice to cater to their sexist demands. It’s a given. I’m a sex worker by the way, and yes I think about what I do and how it symbolizes and maintains sexist values. You can read my thoughts on that here: http://www.emiliedice.com/blog/?p=282
July 28, 2008 at 2:27 pm
I do have an answer to your third question. As a male with sex-positive feminist leanings, I’d say that the fact that I don’t bring this up a lot (my comments on your blog are an exception, not my usual habit) has nothing to do with my inability to keep a straight face while arguing the sex-pos line; I have no trouble with that. Rather, what prevents me from arguing that line very often is the fear that my arguments will be dismissed as self-serving. I imagine this may be the reason for your observed shortage of sex-positive feminist men.
On your second to last question, I would bring up an analogy. The commodification of art has no doubt had all sorts of negative effects on human artistic expression. But it’s had lots of positive effects as well. Is it bad that commercial interests exploit artists and use their influence to corrupt artistic vision, or is it good that artists can actually make a living doing something they feel is worthwhile? I would say clearly both in the case of artists (not sure what you would say). Now, I’m not saying the case of sex workers is exactly the same, but I think there are some similarities, and as a result that the analogy does reveal some factors worth examining.
July 28, 2008 at 5:43 pm
My response is long, so here
http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2008/07/okay-then-so-be-it.html
July 28, 2008 at 6:49 pm
For reference, here’s the text of Ren’s response. I’ll be responding to each of the above comments shortly.
July 28, 2008 at 7:07 pm
When I visit feminist sites and say my say, regardless of how polite it is, I frequently find:
a) the post never makes it out of moderation
b) if the post does make it out of moderation, I am often called by the blogger or commenters a likely
1) rapist
2) wife beater
3) pedophile
4) misogynist
5) ugly guy who can’t get laid
6) ugly guy with a small penis
7) ugly guy who can only pay for sex
8) horrible wifebeating misogynist father who should have CPS called on him for posting on the Internet
I’ve had people threaten me for my posts, telling me they would figure out who I was from my IP and alert the judge in a custody battle that I was posting on the Internet. Now my posts were pretty bland stuff, mainly that I think that no fault divorce is good, but that it needs to come with a rebuttable presumption of joint shared custody, but the last thing I need are people writing judges or writing employers or writing to CPS.
So, when you say there are few men on the net writing on behalf of women in sex you may wish to consider:
a) your sample bias (you probably should read FARK)
b) the moderation drama on most feminist blogs
c) the way dissent is treated and the way dissenters are treated on most feminist blogs.
Regarding one of your questions: “Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture?”….
First, I do not think we live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture, though I certainly think misogyny exists and work to rid the world of it.
Second, yes, yes I do. I think biological and anthropological evidence shows that throughout time on our planet, across species, and including class Mammalia as well class Aves we see lots of sexual dimorphism in terms of form as well as in terms of behavior.
We see female owls using makeup. We see male birds dancing. We see animals and birds preening, and singing, and grooming.
We see bonobos exchanging oral sex. We see capuchins inventing prostitution.
We see lionesses performing the hunt and kill and the lions eating first.
I suspect that outside of humans, the behaviors I described above cannot be placed on the mythical patriarchy scapegoat.
What I don’t understand is why in so many radical feminist responses to sexuality, it’s always in terms of misogynistic patriarchy, and there is no reference to evolutionary biology, or anthropology.
So yes, assuming that we got rid of EVERY last vestige of oppression and misogyny in our culture, yes, I think women (and men) would still participate as sex workers.
I am about to click “Submit Comment”, but based on my experience at most feminist blogs, I have no expectation this post will ever make it through your moderation queue.
July 28, 2008 at 7:08 pm
jerry - I approve everyone who isn’t being an asshole. Call me a renegade.
July 28, 2008 at 7:43 pm
“If you’re a sex-positive dude, tell me why. Why are you in such a huff to help women out? And why does it manifest as sex positivism? Why is your desire to help women out limited to arguing for their “right” to serve you sexually?”
Because all men are straight? And the only reason a straight man might be sex-positive is so he can get laid?
My sex-positive boyfriend is BISEXUAL. He supports my right to DOMINATE HIM if we both feel like it. I support his right to CROSS DRESS.
Can’t imagine that these kinky, evil perverts are up to anything transgressive can you?
Of course my comment isn’t meant to imply that only transgressive expressions of sexuality are acceptable. Heck, I like getting dominated too. And wearing high heels and lipstick. However, why assume that every expression of female sexuality is met by ravenous males hell-bent on oppressing them?
I meet sex positive males every day (as Ren said they hang out on sex positive blogs where they don’t get shouted down for, um, liking sex) and they aren’t as simple-minded as you like to think. They consider their relationships with the men and women in their lives, with masculinity, with gender, and with sex workers.
But I’m not expecting many of them to show up in a place where more guilt and shame will be piled on them.
July 28, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Because when I do so I’m always accused of one-handed typing.
July 28, 2008 at 10:28 pm
If you’re a sex-positive dude, tell me why. Why are you in such a huff to help women out? And why does it manifest as sex positivism? Why is your desire to help women out limited to arguing for their “right” to serve you sexually?
Who said I only help women out? Who said it was limited to arguing for the rights of women to make sexual choices?
It’s been famously argued that it’s feminism not humanism, so okay, whatever. But some of us are humanists not feminists. Apparently radical feminists are proud that feminism is not humanism meaning I gather it’s A-OK that radical feminism doesn’t mind leaving some or many people in the cold to freeze. But us humanists strive to raise the rights of everyone, even feminists that try to strip others of their rights.
If you notice me arguing that sex workers have agency, and you don’t see me encouraging young women to become scientists and engineers, maybe you’re the one with the issues.
Related: when a college student says she was not raped, why do radical feminists insist she was?
July 28, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Is any commenter going to actually address the issues? Okay, everyone, I’m ready for someone to address what Deuce was actually talking about. Any time now…
July 28, 2008 at 11:17 pm
+1 to RenegadeEvolution and jerry.
Why do I stay quiet? Well I see other men get called misogynists if they so much as refuse to call all pornographers rapists. I’ve seen feminists completely disregard what female sex workers themselves say on the matter, so why would *my* opinion be listened to?
If you are a man, you rapidly learn that the only way to not be subjected to verbal abuse on a feminist blog is to either agree with the women in every conceivable way - not even *slightly* deviating from their viewpoint - or just remain quiet. Sex-positivism isn’t popular with many feminists. When you know your opinion is going to be dismissed out-of-hand and you’re only going to get an insult for your trouble, why bother?
This is the very first time I’ve seen a feminist actually genuinely interested in what men have to say.
> Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture? If so, what would the sex industry look like in a world in which women were seen as possessing the same humanity men do?
I do not believe we live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture. I believe we live in a culture where sexism is rampant and both sexes are subjected to it.
If sexism disappeared, would women participate in sex work? Of course. So long as there’s a market for it and women need to earn money. I see no reason why either would disappear with the elimination of sexism. The market for sex workers is driven by libido, not sexism.
I do not believe that women are seen as lacking humanity in the western world, in fact I think that’s an extreme minority viewpoint.
Let me remind you that there are male sex workers too. Clearly, even with your own assumptions, oppression is not necessary for sex workers to exist.
> Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives (obviously some sex workers suffer abuse, but I am referring to women outside the sex industry here)? If not, why not? If so, does any of the responsibility for that lie with sex workers, or does it lie solely with the producers and pimps? Or somewhere else?
Of course pornography and prostitution negatively affects some women’s lives. Most types of work negatively affect lots of people some of the time.
Where does the responsibility lie? Well it depends on the circumstances of the individuals involved. It’s a pretty open-ended question. You can’t point to any particular group and say that they are intrinsically innocent or guilty.
> Why aren’t there more men out there arguing for women’s “right” to participate in sex work?
Because we don’t want to be accused of being hate-filled misogynists.
> I’d also be happy to discuss the arguments of men who do make such a claim.
Women are capable of thinking for themselves. They don’t need anybody to step in and make decisions for them. That is more dehumanising than anything another person could pay them to do.
> Can women like Jenna Jameson can be considered feminists for taking leadership roles in the production of pornography? Why or why not?
Sure they can, because the term “feminist” means practically whatever anybody wants it to. The term is so diluted it is worthless. You have a spectrum from man-haters to true egalitarians. When two people who believe exactly the opposite of one another can both have their beliefs labelled by the same term, it’s lost its value.
> If the answer is yes, how can we reconcile the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives with referring to a producer of mainstream pornography as a feminist?
You’ve made a subtle change here. Earlier, you asked:
> Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives
Key word: SOME
Now you are assuming the position:
> the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives
The former is true even when the effects are not widespread and caused by a minority of porn. But by us acknowledging that, you seem to want to push us into saying that all porn affects all women negatively. These are two very distinct claims.
So, again:
> If the answer is yes, how can we reconcile the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives with referring to a producer of mainstream pornography as a feminist?
The two are unconnected. Just because she is a pornographer, it doesn’t follow that she is responsible for making women’s lives worse. The subset of the porn she produces and the subset of porn that makes some women’s lives worse do not necessarily intersect.
> How can sex work empower individual women when it requires that women submit to being objectified and performing acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them?
I think “empowerment” is mostly used as a buzzword/slogan rather than a meaningful term.
But in the most obvious sense: money is power. By making money, a woman can become more powerful. As you mention poverty later, one example springs to mind. A woman living in poverty can use the money she gains through sex work to gain control over her life. Is that not empowerment?
As for “performing acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them”: that’s why it’s sex *work* and not sex *hobby*. Everybody who has ever had a job has performed acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them. That’s why you need to pay people to do jobs.
> If sex work is a valid, feminist choice, what are we to make of women who say that their participation in sex work resulted from dire poverty, drug addiction, etc.?
If you are in that situation, your options in terms of employment are severely limited. The sex industry is one of the few industries where the requirements of the job are not incompatible with drug addiction or other causes of extreme poverty, e.g. a lack of education.
> I see sex work as a reductionist commodification of human sexuality. Do you think that the reduction of sex to a commodity has a negative effect on our ability to explore and express the potential of human sexuality? If not, why not?
How would the existence of a sex industry limit the potential of a person who hasn’t chosen to participate in it? Sex is only a commodity to the people who pay for it or who charge for it.
> If you’re a sex-positive dude, tell me why. Why are you in such a huff to help women out?
Er, fuck you too. You wonder why we remain silent? How about this kind of attitude?
> And why does it manifest as sex positivism?
It doesn’t. Sex positivism comes from the idea that people should be able to make their own choices in life. There’s nothing gender-specific to that belief.
> Why is your desire to help women out limited to arguing for their “right” to serve you sexually?
Why on earth would you think that is the case?
July 28, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Sex workers are a wide and varied group, and even amid the choice ones, you have a lot of variety; from those who do it for money, to those who do it for fun, to those who see it as a spiritual calling.
Having a guy stick his dick up your ass and then put it in your mouth without washing it first is a spiritual calling? I think I’d rather be a secular humanist.
Here’s something to think about. If it were a spiritual calling, the person would be following the teachings of some made up deity, or she would be following her inner voice. How convenient that what god and/or her inner voice is telling her just so happens to be what the least common denominator sleezeball finds titillating? Come on.
July 29, 2008 at 12:05 am
Did you draw that picture yourself?Do you not think that its a real issue and shockingly racist that all the men in this cartoon are men of colour and depicted in really animalistic ways?
July 29, 2008 at 12:07 am
bono-
All sex work involves ass to mouth? Is that the assumption you’re working off of? If so, not much I can say to you really, other than you are mistaken. There are women who specialize in what they call and consider to be healing/spiritual sexuality, and they charge for it…and really, it’s not for YOU to tell them anything about their own feelings on the matter or experiences with it. A thought might be to read what some such women say on the matter For Themselves.
July 29, 2008 at 12:11 am
Philomela - Of course I didn’t draw it myself. And they are not men of color. They are outside of the spotlight that the stripper is in, so they are not as brightly lit. They are depicted as animalistic because they are men drooling over a woman who is getting naked. It’s part of caricaturing. It helps accentuate the point of the comic.
Come on, for fuck’s sake. Let’s not address what the post is about or anything. Let’s just try to find something to get offended about.
July 29, 2008 at 12:19 am
See, men are more compartmental in their thinking than women; we can tell dirty jokes all day, get drunk at a strip club, then go home to our wives whom we genuinely love and respect.
Again, you don’t understand how men can drool over a woman’s body (and at that time only her body) and still respect women in general as equals.
You know, it’s also possible that you only THINK you are able to compartmentalize all this stuff. Maybe you only believe you are treating women with respect. I can’t speak for you personally, as I don’t know you, but I know a lot of other people who are deluded about just what kind of person they are. You wouldn’t be the first. Again, I’m not saying you are, I’m saying it’s a possibility.
July 29, 2008 at 12:20 am
I share Philomela’s interpretation of this post, actually, and I think *not seeing it* is the result of not having to (You know, white privilege.).
July 29, 2008 at 12:34 am
Of the post or the comic? And how do you know what kind of privilege I have? Is it me having white privilege that makes me not see the men in the comic as being men of color, or are you searching for something? If they’re men of color, what ethnicity do you think they are supposed to be?
July 29, 2008 at 12:37 am
All sex work involves ass to mouth? Is that the assumption you’re working off of?
No, of course not. I used the most foul thing I could think of for effect.
There are women who specialize in what they call and consider to be healing/spiritual sexuality, and they charge for it
The problem with this is that whatever you want to call it, it all involves helping the ruling class get their rocks off.
…and really, it’s not for YOU to tell them anything about their own feelings on the matter or experiences with it.
I can’t speak for them. You’re right. I don’t know their experiences, but as I said in a previous comment, people can be deluded. Stockholm Syndrome, battered wife syndrome. People can say they like all sorts of stuff. I can’t say they’re lying or deluded for sure, but like I said before, it’s pretty damn convenient that they just happen to like being commodified by the ruling class. Real nice and tidy when it works like that, eh?
And another commenter mentioned something about free market or exchange of goods and services. How come women don’t use these services in the numbers that men do? And don’t give me the whole men are sex crazed and women aren’t claptrap. You want to see sex crazed, come to my apartment when I’m ovulating.
And what about the fact that most women in sex work have been molested or abused? Are we glossing over that? That certainly will affect concepts like free will and consent. Surely, not all sex workers have been abused, but it seems that the few that are really and truly doing it out of choice have become the mouthpieces for all sex workers, which I don’t think is fair.
July 29, 2008 at 12:42 am
Sorry, I meant the cartoon.
They’re brown men, I am really not sure what ethnicity they all are. Nevertheless, MOC are routinely portrayed in popular culture as “animalistic,” and these are extremely stereotypical and racist portrayals.
July 29, 2008 at 12:46 am
I think the picture is of a bunch of old white dudes that are outside the reach of the spotlight. If the artist intended them to look like men of color, I’m not backing that, but I doubt it. In any case, with regard to the post it’s a tertiary issue at best. Back to the point.
July 29, 2008 at 12:48 am
Also, I was just checking out this cartoonist–Elena Steier’s–website, and I’m curious how you found the comic? Was it published somewhere else?
July 29, 2008 at 12:52 am
Um, mostly I’m just responding to the picture because I had the same immediate reaction and a) I don’t consider racism a side issue, generally b) I’d address the rest of it, but goddam if I don’t feel like I’ve been to this rodeo a billion times. Maybe later when I have less of a headache. Meantime, and briefly: yeah, I had the same question wrt: are we assuming all the men are straight? I linked to a male sex worker over at Ren’s post there, p.s.; he might be someone you want to check out as well, “The Gentleman Whore.”
http://agentlemanwhore.blogspot.com/
Also, I’m not a sex-positive dude; hope the discussion -with- them is illuminating.
Can I just ask: where did you find that cartoon? I found the author’s website; wondering if it was published elsewhere before, or what.
July 29, 2008 at 12:52 am
Well, I mean… You don’t have to post this, really, but I think you would notice a number of other problematic comics if you took a look at the author’s website:
http://striporama.com/
Also, sorry, no, racism is not tertiary. No, it wasn’t the point of your post, and you missed it, but, seriously… No, not tertiary.
As far as your post goes, I really liked Ren’s response.
July 29, 2008 at 12:53 am
–jeez. “Ass to mouth” is the “most foul thing you can think of?” Oh whatever. At worst it’s potentially unhygenic, but–Whatever. Maybe best not dwell on it, then. Personally I can think of a lot worse, but you know, I -don’t watch it.-
July 29, 2008 at 12:56 am
-kicking myself-0
“And what about the fact that most women in sex work have been molested or abused? Are we glossing over that? That certainly will affect concepts like free will and consent.”
Really?
So, okay, does that also apply to people who declare themselves radical feminists, if they’ve been molested or abused and indeed a lot of their politics stem from that experience, as is true for most people? Or lesbians, for that matter? (Hey, I’ve heard it before, even in this supposedly enlightened age). Should the rest of us just not listen to people who’ve been molested or abused, then? Neato.
July 29, 2008 at 1:02 am
oh jesus. “the ruling class”–okay, fine, am I a member of the ruling class? As a woman, I mean? If I went to one of my friends/acquaintances (male AND female) who work as “sacred companions” and said, you know, I’d like to do a session, actually, is it bad if I get my rocks off? Or am I supposed to be just, like, saving their souls or not talking to them instead of just going to workshops alongside them, talking about our respective lives, and either of us being on the table for an erotic/therapeutic massage at any given point, getting our rocks off (or not) without paying each other?
July 29, 2008 at 1:13 am
I’m going to reply to these one at a time in separate comments so as not to lead to confusion.
Nihilunder -
My only objection to this argument is that I believe that in a society in which women were seen as wholly human in the same sense that men are, sex work would not continue to exist. Women’s sexuality would not be commodified, and women would not have to sell sexual favors to men. Women would be immune to sexual objectification if they were seen as fully human, in much the same way that men (for the most part) seem to be immune to it now (I am aware of the exceptions to this, but it nonetheless remains generally valid).
I do believe our culture is deeply misogynistic. It’s evident in almost every facet of the gender roles we expect people to adhere to and in our language, arts, philosophy, entertainment, sexuality, relationships, etc. (This might be a sticking point, but we’ll see.) I don’t think it’s simplistic of me to say so. There are anti-male trends in some remote corners of American culture, but on the whole our culture is much more misogynistic than misandristic (coinage!). I’m aware that sexism is not the only -ism that exists, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter.
Then what is to be done? If a product tends to create harm, what do we do to mitigate or eliminate the harm? I’m not for the banning of anything, but rather changing people’s minds about what is and isn’t socially acceptable. I think degrading porn feeds cultural assumptions that tend to cause harm to women in our daily lives. That may not be the necessary outcome of people’s consumption of sex industry products, but it tends to be the default one. Any ideas?
Men can “compartmentalize” because of the Madonna/whore complex. See this post. The differences in the way men approach things does not stem from some innate biological difference. It’s cultural. No evolutionary biologist (as dodgy some of their studies are) would suggest such a thing.
Haven’t we just been discussing the fact that the sex industry is harmful to women, at least in its current incarnation? Jenna Jameson is calling herself a feminist while producing status quo degrading porn. That’s a problem.
There is a problem with that analogy. Stephen Hawking is never used like an object, he is consulted and respected for his intellectual capacity, which is lauded because it is so complex and multidimensional. While we may appreciate one aspect of his being, that aspect is much more nuanced, valued, and lasting than a woman’s youthful body. And we aren’t paying Hawking for his services. He pursues what he pursues on his own, and we find value in it as a society. He does not conduct research at the behest of some patron who is hot to know the secrets of the universe.
I’d also ask you whether many men, when consuming sex industry products, are thinking of the women involved as anything BUT only one thing.
Sex is not the same thing as doing someone’s taxes. It’s as intimate as two human beings can get with each other, and as such deserves a little more consideration than getting one’s toenails painted. I know that there are plenty of aspects to most people’s jobs that they dislike, but few people are required to submit to allowing people to insert objects or organs into their orifices or performing intimate physical acts with people they are not even physically attracted to.
I ask you one thing: why do you think it is that it is women who make up the bulk of sex workers? Why aren’t men out servicing women sexually? Why aren’t men out in droves having sex with people they aren’t interested in or attracted to for money? The easy answer is that men are biologically more libidinous than women are, but that is simply false according to studies galore.
How does a sex act become feminist simply because the woman participating is being treated like a human being? When I have sex I make sure I am treated like a human being, but I don’t pretend that the simple fact that I had sex has feminist significance.
Also, I’ve never made the claim that being sexual is inherently dehumanizing. I’m tired of that straw man.
In my worldview, it is odd that men tend to be attracted to women’s bodies before their minds and that women tend toward the obverse. That women’s chief value, as our culture defines it, lies in their attractiveness to men is problematic. That reduces women’s ability to be seen as fully human. How is that not harmful? When a woman’s humanity is dismissed because she isn’t attractive to men, that’s a problem.
There is a difference between having an unsatisfying career and being involved in sex work against one’s will because of a lack of education, viable options, job skills, etc. Drug addiction and poverty do transcend the discussion of sex work, but they are not irrelevant to it; there are a LOT of women who are in sex work to feed drug habits or to avoid dire poverty.
It isn’t possible for men to truly see sex workers as equals in every sense, because women do not have legal, economic, cultural, or social equality with men in this society. If they did, the sex industry in its current form would not exist (I’d argue that it would cease to exist altogether). Even if a few men do exist who have the ability to see sex workers as equals in whatever ways one can try to do so, do you really think most men who consume the products of the sex industry see sex workers as equals? Or even as fully human?
There is no concept in the world that I have difficulty wrapping my head around; I’m probably smarter than anyone you know. Watch that kind of condescending talk. I promised to be civil here, but not to allow people to insult me.
July 29, 2008 at 1:17 am
I don’t remember where the cartoon came from. Someone e-mailed it to me a long time ago.
I didn’t say racism is a side issue, but that it is tertiary in relation to THIS post. And I’m still not convinced of the racism of the comic, and not because of some special White Privilege Racism-Blocking Glasses (TM).
July 29, 2008 at 1:22 am
O.K. Except for–
When is the last time you were in a discussion with some dude, and he had said or included a cartoon that to you was grossly misogynistic, and when you pointed it out, the response was,
“Oh, come on! CLEARLY that is NOT what the author/I was saying AT ALL, you’re IMAGINING things/just inventing things to get offended at in order to miss my VERY IMPORTANT point…Well, of COURSE if -I- can’t see that it’s offensive, it just..isn’t! ”
Never, right?
July 29, 2008 at 1:24 am
I’d be able to show him why the cartoon was offensive. Analyze it and maybe I’ll agree with you.
July 29, 2008 at 1:32 am
Okay, other people have already given it a shot, but:
You’ve got a blonde woman who, whatever else, has clearly lighter skin than -all- of the audience there. Whether the author intended for the audience to read as “white” or not, fact is, at least several of us separately took one look at it and went, “wo! Seriously?”
I mean, I dunno. Do you see why people read King Kong as racist, for example? Or, say, the illustrations in Amanda Marcotte’s book? Just because whatever historical examples of Bestial Dark Skinned Men Slavering Over White Woman I’d use here, I’d probably be going back through those thrashes (for instance) to dig the ones I and a bunch of other people were trying to explain with (often to no avail).
That, and, separately, we have the whole, clearly she’s too dumb to know her own predicament, hardehar (poor dear), which frankly I find sexist, bimbo-bashing division; but well anyway.
July 29, 2008 at 1:36 am
No, Nine Deuce, you don’t get to explain your way out of this one.
That cartoon is as clearly racist in its intention as Birth of a Nation was…..there are clearly Black faces depicted. The man up front staring at the ass of the stripper is clearly Black. There is a bald-headed man in the background…also clearly Black. I can count about three or four other faces in the crowd of leering men who are also Black. The fact that there are also a few White male faces does not distract from the intent of the toon to promote explicitly racist myths about oversexed, out of control Black men (albeit in the context of attacking all men who visit strip clubs in the same light).
Tertiary, my left butt cheek. Considering that you and Witchy-Woo called me and Iamcuriousblue out directly for our responses, I’d say that the cartoon could be construed as a deliberate attack on both of us….in par with the usual tradition around here.
Way to represent yourselves for feminist unity again, ma’am.
Anthony
July 29, 2008 at 1:36 am
“There is no concept in the world that I have difficulty wrapping my head around; I’m probably smarter than anyone you know. Watch that kind of condescending talk. ”
Um…
…
…rrrrright then, I’ll probably be trotting off back to the remedial room with my friends, then. I’m not worthy either, I expect.
July 29, 2008 at 1:38 am
I don’t think *analysis* as such is actually needed to see the racism in this post. Again, you may want to check out the author’s other stuff if you’re really that skeptical of the racism claim. Her series “The Block” is very instructive in this regard.
It is racist because it is a bunch of brown men with animalistic facial features and facial expressions leering at a Poor Misguided White Woman. End of story. I don’t get what needs to be explained here.
July 29, 2008 at 1:38 am
Djiril -
There are some assumptions inherent in all this that you might need to examine. It seems that you are still envisioning a world in which men produce/consume and women perform the sex work. Where’s the change? Where’s the equality? Why are rapes still happening? Why are women still just “more likely” to report having been raped? If a woman is submitting to sex acts she does not want to submit to for money, is there not already an element of coercion? Where is the equality in this world of yours in which women are still eligible for sexual coercion?
I agree. But I think if our social conception of women’s sexuality were to change, if women were to be magically awarded sexual autonomy, free from shame, our behaviors might change. If women’s sexuality were not defined in terms of male sexuality, our sexual behavior might change so drastically that sex work would cease to exist. If no women needed to turn to sex work for money, attention, power, whatever, there’d be a lot less supply. And if most men didn’t conceive of women’s sexuality the way they do now, there’d be a lot less demand.
The responsibility for women being harmed by pornography and other sex industry products lies with the people who produce those products. I’d be hesitant to blame sex workers, but not producers. But I agree that people who shame others for their sexual behavior are part of the larger problem we discussed above.
I think people tend to view men who argue for women’s “right” to engage in sex work as either disingenuous and self-serving (because many of them only discuss women’s rights in this context), or myopic, because they don’t see how sex work indirectly affects many women’s lives.
No argument here. My only qualification is that I will take issue with women who are perpetuating the misogynistic status quo and calling it a feminist act. In any case, I ain’t dissing no one, yo.
I don’t respect them. Men who denigrate women can fuck right off in my book. All I’m saying is that when a bunch of asshole men are pumped about something women are doing, those women ought to wonder. I’m not treating these dicks as authorities on anything but their own assholism. I knew very well that they were calling sex positive women sluts, and that was the problem: these dudes act like they’re supportive of something for self-serving reasons, then denigrate the women they purport to support when they aren’t looking. I’m asking for people’s input on this to learn something, and to hone my own opinions with what I learn.
July 29, 2008 at 1:39 am
Ack, and again, I meant the cartoon, not the post.
July 29, 2008 at 1:40 am
belledame - I was responding to that guy with condescension because he was being condescending. It was meant to be illustrative. I’m not here insulting you.
July 29, 2008 at 1:41 am
The men in the cartoon look like old and middle aged white pervs to me. Whoever drew it should have included some young guys wearing backwards baseball caps.
July 29, 2008 at 1:42 am
Ehh. I’m not a sex-pos feminist, because I’m not a feminist. I’m a women’s libber, I favor the elimination of legal restraints on women’s occupational rights, whether that means being President or Prostitute. A women’s body and mind are hers to employ as she elects - unencumbered by RadFem, Religious Rightist, or even my own personal preference. With that out of the way.
>Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture? If so, what would the sex industry look like in a world in which women were seen as possessing the same humanity men do?
Yes. Partly because they already do. Yes, there are prejudices around, but I know few men, and certainly no men I care much for, who want women held down. We want full partnership with women navigating through the culture and economic world. An inept woman is a poor partner and a silenced woman is a poor partner.
Women ARE seen as worthwhile strategists and tacticians, and managers of humans and material. Women can hire men if they so desire for sex work. Under a BETTER society, one devoid of the manipulations and controls of the two groups I noted, they could do so with less opprobrium.
>Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives (obviously some sex workers suffer abuse, but I am referring to women outside the sex industry here)? If not, why not? If so, does any of the responsibility for that lie with sex workers, or does it lie solely with the producers and pimps? Or somewhere else?
Pornography and prostitution probably make little difference in most women’s lives. Under a fully liberated society it would improve women’s lives. The ethos of sexual autonomy remaining with the individual woman, not controlled by the state nor others in society, but hers to employ as she so desires, whether for profit, pleasure or both, positively affects women, by encouraging a general respect for their autonomy and agency.
I will go further and declare that obstructing women’s rights to engage in prostitution and pornography is tantamount to rape. I see no difference between forces her legs together and forcing them apart. It’s still the same invasion of her sexual autonomy
>Why aren’t there more men out there arguing for women’s “right” to participate in sex work? What do you make of the fact that very few men call sex work a feminist choice? I’d also be happy to discuss the arguments of men who do make such a claim.
Uh, because when we do argue for women’s right (note, no quotes, it’s a right, plain and simple), we become the straw man of the attack. The professionals arguing their own case get sidetracked, dismissed, pitied, and manipulated in pre-women’s-liberationist terms of “concern” and “care” that basically translates into control and dictation of approved and unapproved roles.
>Can women like Jenna Jameson can be considered feminists for taking leadership roles in the production of pornography? Why or why not? If the answer is yes, how can we reconcile the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives with referring to a producer of mainstream pornography as a feminist?
Jenna Jameson can be considered liberated because she has not limited herself to a prescribed role in the production of pornography.
“negative effects pornography has on women’s lives” totally begs the question, now doesn’t it? The effects of pornography on men’s and women’s lives has be to give permission to consensually explore their sexuality. Had the strongest faction of “feminists” sought to work with pornographers instead of the Meese Commission to create models of consensual sex, society would have been a whole lot better off. Having taken the wrong turn, it persists in that channel to the benefit only of its leaders.
>How can sex work empower individual women when it requires that women submit to being objectified and performing acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them?
I don’t know. Everything can be objectifying, regardless of what is exchanged: cash, votes, markers for future services.Women have entered politics, which is the most objectifying aspect of society and its “organization of hatreds” the most deleterious. I wouldn’t debar them for that reason. Polemics is another objectifier. People are reduced to symbols to be avenged for or against, taxed or subsidized. Economics regards people in terms of what they desire and what is desired of them. When we are most wroth with our significant others, we balance that with what they do FOR us - essentially objectification. One can perform sex acts for money, for the same reason on can perform medicine for money, machining for money, lecturing for money. They find it a good use of their time and capabilities.
>Alternatively, if one genuinely enjoys something and gets paid for it, does it become a feminist act? In other words, does feminism exist to advance the cause of women as a whole or for individual women to use as a justification for their personal choices?
Feminism exists for whatever the dictators of feminist meaning choose it to exist for. By and large, it exists to add a panache of virtue to it’s proprietors.
Women’s Lib, by contrast exists to free women from oppressions patriarchal and matriarchal, as visited by the state and those classes that the state elevates to power. Women do not need patrons or matrons. They need only freedom, though a mentor of goodwill never hurts. Free women will find the happiness that they determine suits them.
>If sex work is a valid, feminist choice, what are we to make of women who say that their participation in sex work resulted from dire poverty, drug addiction, etc.?
Again, I repair to the Liberated choice, and I would say that sex work opens another channel for them. It may not be an ideal channel, but it is a channel, none the less. Further, freedom does not inhere in a perfectionist universal of ideal choice, but in the RIGHT to make choices for good or for ill. Women are not to be owned and directed to suit the sensibilities of those well situated, but to own themselves as individuals and choose the directions in life that fortune has afforded them. One might desite better fortunes and strive to create them. However, one’s own aspirations and striving does not and ought not secure control and direction.
>I see sex work as a reductionist commodification of human sexuality. Do you think that the reduction of sex to a commodity has a negative effect on our ability to explore and express the potential of human sexuality? If not, why not?
Sex is reduced to a commodity only when the participants can not impart proprietary value to it. That can happen with or without wages. Sex is most reduced when one’s agency is shorn by those who set and enforce rules through the state. There are few proprietaries among the conscripted.
>If you’re a sex-positive dude, tell me why. Why are you in such a huff to help women out? And why does it manifest as sex positivism? Why is your desire to help women out limited to arguing for their “right” to serve you sexually?
Who said that my love of liberty is constrained to one avenue? I argue from women’s right to accept or reject me at will, with or without that accouterments of cash, status (Hahn, that I had either!) or any other benefit of my company. They have the right to please other men and be pleased by them is such liaison can offer itself. They can do likewise with women.
If I am in a huff at all, it is because I disdain and holds in contempt white knights of either sex who wish to rescue them from the freedom to make their way in the world. I will gladly support and partner with women as researchers, managers, investors, machinists, fabricators, or any other profession or trade. I would be a fool to do otherwise and reject talent, enterprise and partnership for mere acquiescence.
July 29, 2008 at 1:43 am
bono:
“And what about the fact that most women in sex work have been molested or abused? Are we glossing over that? That certainly will affect concepts like free will and consent. Surely, not all sex workers have been abused, but it seems that the few that are really and truly doing it out of choice have become the mouthpieces for all sex workers, which I don’t think is fair.”
Fact? You wouldn’t be basing that “fact” off of Farley’s much questioned and over used statistics, would you? And as for the mouthpeices thing…hum, yeah, as someone actually involved in sex worker outreach…well, yeah, a whole lot of sex workers/ex sex workers/ prostituted women with less than glowing tales are talking too. R. Mott comes to mind. The often maligned Jill Brenneman as well, Victoria M, three bloggers I can think of off the top of my head. Sarah Katherine Lewis wrote a book that hardly makes things sound so rosey.
As for the cartoon: All of the men are darker skinned, and many have large noses similiar to those seen in anti-Semitic cartoons. I’m Jewish, so I notice those things.
July 29, 2008 at 1:44 am
Anthony - I didn’t call you out specifically because I’ve never even heard of you, nor Iamcuriosblue. You may have some issue with Witchy that I’m unaware of (I just found her blog a few days ago), but it’s nothing to do with me. Usual tradition around here? Have you ever been here before? I don’t do specific attacks, and I’ve never engaged with anyone besides Ren before on this issue, and we’ve always maintained some measure of civility.
I’m going to take the goddamned cartoon down because I want to stick to the topic. How’s that with everyone?
July 29, 2008 at 1:45 am
With that out of the way, I’m inviting anyone who calls her/himself a sex-positive feminist or who refers to sex work as a feminist choice to answer the following questions, and I promise to be fair, civil, and reasonable in discussing them:
I’m not a dude. But I appreciate the civility with which you asked this, so I’ll say my piece.
* Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture? If so, what would the sex industry look like in a world in which women were seen as possessing the same humanity men do?
I absolutely believe sex work would exist in any world in which markets and money exist (which, to my mind, is all of them, but I could be wrong/unimaginative/overly capitalist.) I think as long as any kinds of service are traded, sexual service will be as well. (By “service” here I don’t mean to imply heavy domination or debasement — I just mean, well, people pay for massages, for treatments in spas that are as much about being pampered as anything else, etc.)
In a non-sexist world, I believe we’d see more of such service oriented toward and consumed by women, as well as more oriented toward people who are queer and non-gender-normative. (I know some people think women aren’t consumers — which makes me just want to ask them why then it was that any time the local gay club had a strip show, the audience was both full of other gay men AND of women. Is that ALL something that can be chalked up to sex positivity being popular in feminist circles?)
I believe that the job would have less stigma associated with it in such a world, so people would be less likely to be in it because of pressure or force. I believe that it would be far easier for the workers to get the health care and safer sex supplies they need, and standard procedure to demand the use of safe sex supplies.
As far as what pornography would look like, I think it would cover a wide variety of fantasies, groupings, bodies, etc. I think it would be far easier to find — or act in, if you liked — material that isn’t designed by and for heteronormative men.
* Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives (obviously some sex workers suffer abuse, but I am referring to women outside the sex industry here)?
I don’t know that I’d quite say “yes” to this question as worded, but I wouldn’t say “no” either. I do think there are men who use pornography as it exists today to pressure women to do things they don’t want, to make women feel unattractive, and otherwise as a tool of control. I don’t like it. But I’m not at all convinced these aren’t people that would find other tools of control to pull the same shit if they didn’t have porn.
If not, why not? If so, does any of the responsibility for that lie with sex workers, or does it lie solely with the producers and pimps? Or somewhere else?
I don’t believe the responsibility lies with sex wo