Cosmo sucks for telling you to swallow.

20 Jul

I’m taking a break from compiling a list of the worst songs ever made (Any suggestions? The criteria are that the song has to induce cringes and can’t be even slightly funny. For example, “Your Body is a Wonderland” by John Mayer made the list, but “I Want Your Sex” by George Michael didn’t, because it can be funny in some contexts.) to write about something that’s been in the back of my mind since I was a wee teenager: the frequent sidebars in the sex columns of “women’s” magazines about the nutritional value of semen. Because, apparently, whether ingesting semen will blow one’s Atkins diet is really the only question left to be decided.

Say what? I’d completely understand finding something like this in a sidebar in Maxim giving dudes advice on how to convince women to swallow, and I know Cosmo is basically the magazine for women who date guys who read Maxim, but I still can’t believe that they’re selling the practice to other women. I find it odd that in a magazine that is ostensibly written by women for women, one frequently finds pro-swallowing propaganda.

Have we really reached a point where the main thing holding women back from ingesting semen is a diet concern? I hope not, but the existence of these little info tidbit columns points to two pretty weird assumptions. First, the magazine believes that women are all already convinced that, as long as it doesn’t cost them a Weight Watchers point, they should be performing fellatio and ingesting semen. Second, there is the assumption that women are all more concerned with staying thin than with whether they ought to be doing something they don’t want to do in order to fulfill some asshole’s porn fantasy.

And that is, my friends, what men’s desire to have their partners swallow is all about. Ask any dude if he wants to power down a tablespoon of semen, and he’ll probably tell you to do one: “That shit’s fucking sick, dude! What, do you think I’m some kind of fag?” But yet the same dude expects his girlfriend to be all about it. You see, in our pornographized culture, that’s what sex is about to most dudes: getting women to do things they don’t want to do or are uncomfortable with (swallowing semen, “doing” anal, threesomes, you get the point). When a woman submits to a sex act she isn’t that into, the dude she’s with gets excited because he’s been given proof that he has power over her, and what in the sam hill is sexier to the porn-addled male mind than domination, than seeing a woman “willingly” submit to a sex act she isn’t comfortable with in order to further bloat his turgid ego?

A lot of women have bought the package, apparently, if “women’s” magazines are operating under the assumption that we’re all hanging around waiting for a dick to suck, and that we’re wondering whether to swallow, not because we think it isn’t cool of men to expect it of us when don’t want to do it, but because we are afraid doing so might make us gain six ounces and fall down a notch on the fuckability scale.

What a bunch of goddamn sellouts the Cosmo people are. I know that’s not an innovative thought, but seriously, is it published by Bill Maher?

Cosmo sucks. I’m advocating a girlcott, and maybe even a magazine-burning party (with Jager, of course, or maybe BL Lime). But I do have a suggestion for the Cosmo people, should they ever decide they’d like their magazine to have something to offer beyond advice on how to be an Axe-wearer’s dream girl. How about putting a sidebar in the next sex column with responses women can use to tell their manipulative douchebag boyfriends how they really feel about swallowing? I’ve got a few. Feel free to plagiarize these, Cosmo:

  • Sure, I’ll do that if it turns you on, but you know what I’m into? Seeing dudes drink my piss. Get a cup. Did I mention that it’s nutritional as fuck?
  • If you’re so excited by the thought of seeing someone ingest your bodily fluids, how about I drink some of your blood? I’ve got a knife right here.
  • You down a dose of it first and tell me how you like it, then we’ll see.
  • I don’t want to. Go fuck yourself. Also, get out of my house. I don’t date dudes who are into coercing women into doing things they don’t want to do.

Ah, what a lovely topic for my hundredth post.


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83 Responses to “Cosmo sucks for telling you to swallow.”

  1. syndicalist702 July 20, 2008 at 2:48 AM #

    I’ll bring the Jager.

  2. Nine Deuce July 20, 2008 at 2:57 AM #

    Should we invite the Hell Yeah dudes?

  3. Hops July 20, 2008 at 3:59 AM #

    Congrats on your 100th post!

    Also, I’m all for burning up Cosmos with some Axe, but we might suffocate from the overwhelming frat boy/guido-ness of it all.

  4. syndicalist702 July 20, 2008 at 5:43 AM #

    I doubt those guys would appreciate the occasion. Call it a hunch. We’ll tell them to just drop the bottles off. In an iced tub.

    Oh, and congrats on your hundredth post. Didn’t realize it’d been that long already.

  5. Mary Tracy9 July 20, 2008 at 12:08 PM #

    I follow your blod, though I rarely comment because I don’t have much to say except for “You are right! So right!”.
    And today is no exception. :)

  6. Sally July 20, 2008 at 2:56 PM #

    You know, I’ve never really thought about swallowing spunk like that before… I’ve never been specifically asked to swallow before, I’ve just never known where the hell I’d spit it out. *shrug* Oh, and cum apparently has 50 calories, which of course earned me the name “50calSal” thanks to my lovely boyfriend back at school. He became my ex rather quickly.

    Great post again ND, congrats on the 100th one!

  7. Screaming Lemur July 20, 2008 at 6:02 PM #

    What freaks me out is that to me, a sex act with a reluctant partner is just no fun. If I’m doing something, I want my partner to be on board and enjoying it also.
    …Or is it just that we’re supposed to pretend we like it, whether we do or not, just to keep their dicks hard?
    Srsly, Cosmo. Do not want.

  8. Nine Deuce July 20, 2008 at 7:48 PM #

    That’s exactly what we’re supposed to do, pretend we like it, just like they do in porn.

  9. psych July 20, 2008 at 9:38 PM #

    I can see why guys wouldn’t want to have anything to do with semen if they’re straight. But what would your average guy say if his girlfriend asked him to swallow her menstrual blood? In my experience, most men won’t even look at menstrual blood because it’s so “gross.” That would be fine if he expected women to have the same attitude to his semen, but no, they expect to get that in her mouth, on her face and on her breasts. And they damn well expect her to like it.

  10. Jen July 21, 2008 at 12:03 AM #

    In a porn culture, the definition of sex has something to do with penis and ejaculate. Thus, vaginas, female orgasm, and female bodily fluids are all “side dishes” to the main event of male orgasm. Which is why men are so offended when you don’t want their sweet man-juice, and also why they don’t taste it themselves. If they were the ones ingesting semen, the assumption is that they become the side dish, the object, instead of the main course and the subject. For no other reason other than equating the act of ingesting semen with submission, men should not have anything to do with it. Also, the semen is supposed to be the symbol of his masculinity, and rejecting it must be akin to rejecting him. All the symbols of femininity have to do with submission, not pleasure, and so the act of the male embracing it directly benefits him. The center of femininity when it comes to sex is holes, boobs, and hands – all objects which can be used for male pleasure. If the man rejects female bodily fluids and the evidence of her pleasure, then he is not rejecting her or less of a man because of it. But if she rejects his bodily fluids and the evidence of his pleasure, then she is rejecting him and is less wanted because of it.

  11. Bill July 21, 2008 at 1:29 AM #

    Psyche – back in the day, we called it “getting our red wings”. Yes, guys have been known to “go to lunch” when their lady was menstrating.

    As far as ever having been swallowed – not an issue with me personally because I almost always “popped the cork” during intercourse. But seeing how greedy, insecure, and power-hungry most of my so-called “brothers” are, I can see the issue.

  12. L July 21, 2008 at 2:20 AM #

    I’d like to know how prolific this “getting” of the “red wings” is, especially in the current rape/porn cultural climate. I have known a lot of dudes, personally and secondhand, who will have sex with a woman while she’s menstruating, but I don’t think I’ve known any who have gone or would go down on a woman while she’s menstruating. Usually, period = blowjob week, at least in my experience.

    I guess I think that the dudes who would be willing to “get their red wings” are also the dudes who have tasted their own semen and who are less likely to demand blowjobs in the first place, let alone that women swallow in the process. It HAS to be an extremely low minority of people who are like this. Doesn’t it?

    The whole swallowing conversation is the ultimate in ignoring your body’s reactions for the sake of the patriarchy. In fat acceptance circles, one of the first and most important things they talk about is following your body’s cues — if you don’t like it, don’t eat it. But when it comes to swallowing, the first thing you do is ignore your body. I know I can’t swallow that junk without seriously gagging and almost vomiting from the taste alone, let alone the whole concept of what I’m doing. Needless to say, I don’t do that anymore, because it SUCKS to swallow (and to give blowjobs, imo, but that’s another issue altogether).

    (I can’t wait for all the people who commented on “What would a dude do?” defending make-up and heels to find this post and commence the swallowing apologia. “But I DO like the taste of it, I swear! It turns me on to swallow! It’s good for you! It’s an aphrodisiac! It makes him SO HAPPY! You’re taking away my agency by calling Cosmo propaganda! How can you be in favor of women’s sexual pleasure when you constantly tell them that what they like to do is wrong? You anti-porners are so patriarchal! How do you sleep at night, Nine Deuce?” And so on.)

  13. Laurel July 21, 2008 at 11:14 AM #

    L,

    Good call. How prominent are the “red wings” in our culture? I suspect not very. But all my guys have done this, and on a regular basis, because they’ve all actually given a shit whether or not I have an orgasm. And they don’t “demand” anything.

    I hate porn. I like sex. I don’t see the point in messing around with men who confuse the two.

  14. syndicalist702 July 21, 2008 at 1:50 PM #

    “I don’t think I’ve known any who have gone or would go down on a woman while she’s menstruating.”

    I don’t have a problem with it, personally. *shrug* I mean, seriously gents, it’s just blood. Besides, if we’re aiming for the right spot it’s not like we have to eat the blood, anyway, So what’s the worse that happens, we smell a little iron? Well, boofrickinhoo!
    And if she’s uncomfortable with it, back rub night!

  15. crankosaur July 21, 2008 at 1:51 PM #

    I agree with Sally–I swallow, but mostly because I don’t know where to spit it out. No cleanup necessary!
    I would be down for a Cosmo burning party. I’ll bring the matches.

  16. bonobobabe July 21, 2008 at 1:51 PM #

    I practice media avoidance, so I’m often taken by surprise by things and then I investigate and find out that something is “in”…usually with the younger people.

    I was surprised by the how commonplace shaving your pubic hair (and the hair around your anus) is for young women today. When I was an adolescent, all that was required was legs and underarms. Shaving pubic hair was considered weird or fringe.

    Same thing with swallowing. When I was coming of age, it wasn’t pushed on women/girls. In fact, blow jobs weren’t demanded, and cunnilingus was pretty common. Judging from what I’ve been reading on the net now, it’s completely flip-flopped.

    Not only have I never swallowed, I’ve never even spit, because I don’t allow the man to orgasm in my mouth. I think it’s disgusting. I did have a guy complain that I wouldn’t let him shoot his wad in my mouth. I mentioned that to my mother, and she went from calm to rage in 5 nanoseconds and bellowed, “Tell him you’ll blow your nose down his throat!”

    There are certain obvious physiological differences between females and males. I do not think it is unfair for a women to be orally stimulated to orgasm, while men are orally stimulated as foreplay.

    Before I went down on a boyfriend for the first time, I told him that I don’t swallow or spit, because he was not to orgasm while in my mouth. I told him if he got close, he was to let me know. Apparently, I was so firm about it that he wasn’t able to lie back and enjoy it. He lost his erection after a couple minutes from the anxiety. :-)

  17. Trin July 21, 2008 at 2:30 PM #

    “I guess I think that the dudes who would be willing to “get their red wings” are also the dudes who have tasted their own semen and who are less likely to demand blowjobs in the first place, let alone that women swallow in the process. It HAS to be an extremely low minority of people who are like this. Doesn’t it?”

    Y’know, I’ve honestly got no idea whether my partner has swallowed his own secretions or hasn’t, but he certainly doesn’t have any cringe-response to the idea of going down on me when I’m menstruating, for whatever that data point is worth. (Exact quote: “Hey… your womanhood doesn’t bother me at all!”) I’ve known more than a few guys who don’t have an issue with it or even like it. (In fact, it was a guy who told me some of the slang for it.) So… yeah, I’m not really sure what this line of analogy is supposed to prove or mean, other than… some people don’t like bodily fluids and some do.

    And that yeah, there’s a cultural trend where people who DON’T like them are deemed uncool, which I strongly dislike too… seems to me to encourage unsafe sex, as well as to mark some perfectly normal people as hangup-having or disgusting. I’d really like a world where “wear a condom while I do that, please” is not a bizarre request.

    For the record, I’ve never swallowed his semen, before anyone accuses me of being one of the “I like the taste! I swear!” cheerleaders — though I will say that I don’t think anyone who claims to like it is lying. It’s not something that appeals to me, and I doubt I’m at all unusual in that — but having been in the kink world a while I’ve met people who like all sorts of things most people would deem viscerally odd or gross.

    I remember a friend of mine who used to blog, who would often talk lovingly about the smell and taste of her partner’s secretions. It always made me cringe, personally, but it didn’t seem to me she was lying for attention. She specifically said that she thought of herself as unusual for it… which doesn’t sound, to me, like someone who wants a gold star for being a good pornulated hipster. *shrug* Especially since, the way she talked about it, she meant *him* specifically — she associated his secretions with their relationship, and liked his smell and taste because they were his.

    Also… possibly derailing, but I always wonder when I see conversations like this: Do the women here who think swallowing semen is ignoring revulsion feel revulsion toward women’s secretions as well? Because I find that the vast majority of lesbians I know think dental dams are stupid and a waste and take away from the experience of a woman’s smell and taste. (Also something that bothers me — I’d like to see more people being okay with their partners wanting safe sex, instead of this “safe sex is uncool” nonsense…)

  18. bonobobabe July 21, 2008 at 3:50 PM #

    Do the women here who think swallowing semen is ignoring revulsion feel revulsion toward women’s secretions as well?

    This is probably TMI, but…

    I’ve never been with a woman sexually, but I have tasted myself on several occasions. And I happen to think I taste pretty good. So, I don’t feel revulsion towards female secretions, although I think if I were a lesbian, I would avoid going down on a woman who had a funky odor. But I think men smell funky all the time.

  19. Nine Deuce July 21, 2008 at 4:05 PM #

    I hate porn. I like sex. I don’t see the point in messing around with men who confuse the two.

    Word.

  20. Sally July 21, 2008 at 5:28 PM #

    “I remember a friend of mine who used to blog, who would often talk lovingly about the smell and taste of her partner’s secretions. It always made me cringe, personally, but it didn’t seem to me she was lying for attention”

    TMI time:

    You know, that really makes sense to me. I dunno, it only really happens with people I feel /really/ strongly for, like one of my ex boyfriends, after we’d have sex I’d always bury my head in his armpit and would happily just fall asleep there, I just loved the smell of his BO. And with my ex girlfriend, I just loved the smell and taste of her, erm… Area. I guess it’s something to do with the hormones *shrug*

  21. pisaquari July 21, 2008 at 9:11 PM #

    Here’s to 100 more Nine!

    Also, thought I’d share another great post on the wtfness of swallow culture by m andrea:

    http://feminazi.wordpress.com/

    2007/12/26/but-she-cares-more-
    about-a-clean-house-than-i-do-manjoose/

    (3 parts)

  22. Nine Deuce July 21, 2008 at 9:27 PM #

    That post rules. I really like her blog, thanks for the tip-off.

  23. Scott July 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM #

    I’m afraid this is where I stop being a reader. I’ll keep on being an ally, as you insist on defining me, but I’m just not on board with a message that makes so many sweeping generalisations about men and their relationships with women. The picture of men that you paint is so alien to me, it’s painful to be painted with the same brush.

    I go down on my partner because I enjoy it. That goes for women and men. If she’s menstruating, I typically have to convince her that, no, I don’t mind, may I go on if that’s the only objection? For semen, granted, it’s not a lovely flavour, but I didn’t think women’s lubrication was tasty either until I developed a taste for it. Further, I don’t expect any particular activity with a partner: I expect that they are there to enjoy themselves, and I’d be weirded out if they tried doing something they didn’t want to do because they thought I wanted it. That’s not only unsexy, but a creepy expectation.

    That mainstream discourses on sex promote the kind of things you object to is a terrible thing. Despite my active disruption of them in my personal conduct, articles like this define me as the oppressor and insist that I must, by virtue of my genitalia, engage in such despicable behaviour.

    I define myself as a feminist man, though I can only justify that to myself because my definition of “man” is different than the hegemonic definition being leveraged for the discourse here. I don’t do power struggles in the bedroom, and I won’t tolerate a partner who does. My feminism doesn’t include the kind of sexism that expects all men to be asses of the basest kind; I only expect that most will quickly prove themselves to be such by their actions. The exceptions are to be cultivated and brought into the ally/feminist fold.

    So, farewell. You have much to say that is good, but your distorted view of men weakens your arguments. You’re engaging with a straw “man”, and feminism needs better arguments than that if the world is going to change for the better.

    Ghandi said it best: “You must be the change you want to see in the world.” I’m busy doing that, but you’re busy telling men that they are doomed by their genitalia to be oppressors. You need to leave space in your narrative for positive change, else you are part of the hegemony that maintains the status quo.

  24. Nine Deuce July 21, 2008 at 11:25 PM #

    I’m not engaging with a straw man. I am referring to porn-addled men, as I said throughout the post. I don’t think all men act like this, or I’d be in constant despair as I happen to be heterosexual. In fact, I’ve known plenty of men who weren’t and aren’t like this at all. The comments readers have posted more closely reflect my own experiences. In fact, the reason I wrote the post in the first place was that the fact that these sidebars exist blows my mind. It makes me sad to think that there is a large contingent of men out there who expect these kinds of things, and that there are women who tolerate it.

    There is plenty of room in my arguments for change, and the entire goal of my blog is to ask people to think about their views of things and to try to make the changes they see as necessary once they’ve considered things. I NEVER make the claim that all men are assholes and that none of them want to help. I do my best to qualify any general statements that I make, and when I don’t, I expect my readers to know, since I usually do qualify, that I am referring to the kinds of men who are problematic rather than the thoughtful ones.

  25. Scott July 21, 2008 at 11:48 PM #

    Could you lay out what you meant to write when you instead wrote, “And that [fulfilling some asshole’s porn fantasy] is, my friends, what men’s desire to have their partners swallow is all about.”?

    These particular words are where I finally lost patience, on top of previous attempts to define me by my gender. Telling me that my enjoyment of this particular configuration of bodies is all about subjugating my partner is unconnected to my lived reality.

    I can understand how those exact words could be an inaccurate expression of what you really meant, but they are no less damaging. These sorts of sweeping generalisations about men disempower any man who is working against hegemonic male power, and is a disservice to all women, who must “know thy enemy” in order to effectively pursue the overthrow of the patriarchy.

  26. Nine Deuce July 22, 2008 at 12:01 AM #

    Fine, how’s this: “And that, my friends, is what men who expect women to swallow are ALMOST ALWAYS all about.”?

    I don’t ever define anyone by their gender. I write about people who uphold our society’s sick gender roles, and I use words and phrases like “dudes,” “most men,” “many women,” “some men,” and even “men” as shorthand for such. As a radical feminist, I’m not into gender roles at all. I think gender is socially constructed and harmful, and I guess I suppose people know that already, which is maybe my bad for assuming.

    In any case, I still ask people, as I always ask myself, why it is that they might enjoy a particular configuration of bodies. I know plenty of men who do not expect — or even ask — women to swallow, and I think it suspicious if one does.

    And I also ask you, directly, why you think feminists need your advice on how to package our messages. Please see my comment policy.

  27. L July 22, 2008 at 12:02 AM #

    Ha, nice flounce, Scott.

    Relatedly, I’m sick to death of “allies” who cannot bear a little fucking criticism. If you’re a dude, you’ve got male privilege, and you probably need to check it — I, for one, will always assume that you are always speaking from a place of privilege if you have a penis and balls, because you probably fucking are. Get over your butthurt fee-fees and deal with it — the feminist movement isn’t here to make you feel better, and feminists’ blogs aren’t the place for you to fish for compliments. And, by the way, if a feminist isn’t talking about you, SHE ISN’T FUCKING TALKING ABOUT YOU. No need to get bent out of shape about “broad generalizations” if you’re not part of the group being critiqued. Criminy.

    It’s good to hear that some people here have experienced the whole “red wings” thing without a problem. While I have an aversion to the taste/scent of semen, I don’t to women’s sexual secretions (or at least my own, as I’m hetero and haven’t been with a woman), so I don’t know that it’s always a body-ew factor.

  28. L July 22, 2008 at 12:03 AM #

    And oh for crying out loud, MEN are being “disempowered” by feminists now? Please give me a fucking break, Scott.

  29. L July 22, 2008 at 12:17 AM #

    Sorry, ND, I guess I’m not done yet:

    These sorts of sweeping generalisations about men disempower any man who is working against hegemonic male power, and is a disservice to all women, who must “know thy enemy” in order to effectively pursue the overthrow of the patriarchy.

    So, how exactly are women supposed to “know [our] enemy” when we can’t talk about the enemy as a class of people who share, benefit from and consistently and collectively seek to propagate male privilege? This is an honest question, Scott.

  30. Scott July 22, 2008 at 12:44 AM #

    Feminists don’t “need my advice”. I participate in feminism because I believe that White male (able-bodied, class, …) privilege is a disease of our culture and needs to be eradicated, like smallpox.

    L, feminist men are being turned away from the movement by that kind of assumption. Men aren’t oppressed by patriarchy in the same way as women, but the patriarchy still oppresses men. I want to be free of those assholes in power too, so why shouldn’t we work together under the same banner? The assumption that all men are necessarily the enemy is self-defeating.

    I know I have the dubious distinction of benefiting from male privilege. I work hard to turn it down whenever I can see and respond usefully to it. I expect that’s what you mean by “check it”. That doesn’t mean I’m a drooling idiot chained to someone else’s colonisation of my gender identity.

    Broad generalisations are important, to detect and avoid. If I said something sexist like “all women are motivated by X” and excused it as being badly-worded, and all of my real readers know that I’m really not sexist, I’d be rightly ripped apart. There’s no difference at there except gender of speaker and the gender being defined. That’s what I’m asking you to think about Nine Deuce.

    For the record, I’ve never asked anyone to swallow, nor has any partner of mine asked me. We can just keep on enjoying what we enjoy without someone coming in and claiming the privilege to define our motives.

    L, what about transwomen with a penis and balls? Are they speaking from a place of privilege because of what they keep in their pants? Why are you looking in their pants anyway? Do they have to get cut on by someone, have their flesh pushed around in an L-approved configuration to be considered free of male privilege? Meanwhile, and I know it’s asking for even more, L, but I would appreciate it if you keep the homophobic slurs in your head. I think anyone who engages in non-oppressive butt sex would appreciate it too.

    I’m not fishing for compliments (wtf?) or an apology, but expressing disappointment that a self-defined feminist would feel that it’s appropriate to engage in sexism, even if the target is the oppressor. It’s not progressive, it doesn’t overturn the oppression. It just reinforces the other-defining that is the major tool of patriarchy.

    And if it’s an honest mistake of failing to qualify, that’s something that everyone here should want to correct, isn’t it? Maybe my perspective as a feminist man is what makes that glaringly obvious, because every time I speak I have a huge responsibility to speak without the pervasive sexism that has conditioned my learning of English. It’s obvious to me that I have to take responsibility for uttering slurs, no matter whether they were what I meant or not.

  31. Nine Deuce July 22, 2008 at 12:54 AM #

    Where is the slur? If men’s motive for wanting women to swallow doesn’t stem from a desire for power, whence does it come?

  32. Scott July 22, 2008 at 1:11 AM #

    (Sorry, it’s not obvious how to quote here. Do I just use q tags?)

    L just added “So, how exactly are women supposed to ‘know [our] enemy’ when we can’t talk about the enemy as a class of people who”.

    Talk about men, please. Feminism wouldn’t have achieved so much without it. Be mindful what you say, though, so that it actually has discursive utility. You’d never make a generalisation about women without being pretty damned sure that you’re not compounding or subtly participating in the oppression of women. Feminism started out oppressing and othering trans women, women of colour, butch, femme, and so on, through overt and covert exclusion. (Fortunately, that’s been mostly corrected.) Is it any more right to make incorrect generalisations about men?

    So, please, talk about men. Recognise while you do it that men are not a monolith. There’s a bunch of theory lit about how representing men and patriarchy as monolithic supports the power of patriarchy, by buying into its myth that it is the norm while all diverse “others” are, well, other. Yes, all men (who are performatively recognisabe as “men”) benefit from privilege, but no one man propagates, accepts, or interacts with male privilege in the same way as the next man.

    I get shat on by the patriarchy for resisting it; I want to get rid of it too. (That’s not a “boo-hoo, poor male me”, to make it clear. That’s “hey, if you’re busy crapping on me too, how is that a good use of our energy against the real enemy?”) Treating me like I don’t won’t dissuade me from continuing to work on perfecting my feminism, but how many young boys reject feminism because it seems to reject them? We NEED those boys, and the girls that they unwittingly wield patriarchal power over. They can cause a lot of damage, and we need to get them that are receptive over on the side of good. We don’t need them so much that feminism should be diluted to get them (what would be the point of that?), but needlessly turning them away because of thoughtless hostility is just going to slow down the dismantling of the patriarchy.

  33. Scott July 22, 2008 at 1:28 AM #

    “Where is the slur?”

    L’s telling me off with a comment about my sore male butt is homophobic. If it wasn’t casting the penetrated male anus as a source of shame it wouldn’t be homophobic, but neither would it have been the tell-off that it was clearly intended to be.

    “If men’s motive for wanting women to swallow doesn’t stem from a desire for power, whence does it come?”

    I’m not going to speak for all men, because that would be enough hypocrisy to make me implode. For myself, it doesn’t symbolise domination or imposition. As a purely physical interaction of molecules in space it has no meaning, so it’s only in its construction, it’s significance to my partner and I, that it can be eroticised. Simply, if they enjoy it, I enjoy it. It’s the shared physical intimacy. Sex is messy, and I’ve come to eroticise the ways in which it is messy. (My alternative is to try to sanitise that, to maintain the illusion of the impermeable physical envelope, and my feminism goes against that.) Since all the physical goop that comes out of us all during sex is unavoidable, I might as well enjoy it. If they don’t enjoy swallowing semen, it would be incredibly unpleasant for me for them to force themself.

  34. L July 22, 2008 at 2:20 AM #

    My problem with you, Scott, is that you decided to participate in this discussion ONLY WHEN you felt offended. You didn’t talk about anything else EXCEPT for how it hurts, nay, disempowers you, when women talk about men in negative ways. You didn’t talk about the varied, numerous ways that Cosmo/women’s mags, the swallowing expectation, and rape culture harm women. Which is what this post is about. If you were truly an ally, you would have gathered the guts to talk about something other than how the mean feminists hurt your poor little feelings. How about engaging with the damn subject of the post a little before demanding that ND talk about your life and problems? (And if you can’t be bothered to stay on subject in other people’s spaces, why not create your own blog — and link to it when you comment — where you can talk about whatever you want, including how L thinks she rules the world and obviously hates men no matter how they benefit from male privilege because she was SO MEAN to you?)

    Wanna know why I assume that dudes, even and especially dudes who are “feminists,” are speaking from privilege? Because of guys like you. Because of the shit you JUST pulled in this thread. If you want men to be an important part of the feminist movement, take a look at yourself first — stop getting mad at feminists because they call you on your crap. I’m not arguing that feminism doesn’t need men or that men aren’t hurt by patriarchy — you can take a look at my blog and see that that’s not my brand of feminism at all. You and I essentially agree, Scott. But I’m saying we need men who don’t do things like this; we need men who can authentically listen, who can STFU when women are talking, who can ask questions instead of demanding answers or changes, who can have compassion for women instead of spouting asshole advice, and so on. Based on what I’ve seen so far from you, Scott, you’re not that kinda guy. You haven’t really given me much to work with, so I may be wrong about that, but that’s my reading and I’m sticking with it until proven otherwise.

    As for “needless hostility,” I believe you were the one who came in unannounced and demanded that Nine Deuce pay attention to you and your manly needs. Take a look in the mirror, my friend. My biggest piece of advice for you, since you’re into that sort of unasked-for advice-giving thing, is to take another few looks at the Feminism 101 blog, specifically the definition of “sexism” (omg am I tired of hearing that feminists are sexists), the post about feminists not hating men, and the post about male privilege. I bet you’ll say you’ve already read all this, but you obviously need to read it all again, and slower this time. Maybe take notes.

    For the record, I’m not talking about trans* people here at all (hello red herring), and nothing I’ve said is homophobic (as “butthurt” doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means — sometimes urbandictionary can be useful). It is apparently very difficult for you to stay on task, Scott.

  35. L July 22, 2008 at 4:04 AM #

    As a purely physical interaction of molecules in space it has no meaning, so it’s only in its construction, it’s significance to my partner and I, that it can be eroticised.

    Dude, blowjobs are apolitical now? They have no meaning beyond the bedroom? Are you fucking kidding me?

    K, that’s it. Before I stop attempting to have a reasoned discussion with this asshat (I suppose there’s some homophobic element I’m missing in that remark, as well), I’ll say that I was not aware of the homophobic connotations of “butthurt.” Only 4chan uses it in the way you’ve described, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t carry oppressive meanings with it. I’ll curb my use of that word in the future. Now, I’m done talking with you, Scott. Have a good one.

  36. Screaming Lemur July 22, 2008 at 5:32 AM #

    Is it wrong that I thought “butthurt” is hi-fucking-larious? Also, bonus points for use of the word “fee-fees”. *giggles*
    But srsly, did someone just use “purely physical interaction of molecules in space” while talking about blowjobs? No more ganja for you, Sparky. And don’t tell me you don’t smoke, cause that woulda been your only good excuse for a statement that ass-tastic.

  37. psych July 22, 2008 at 11:00 AM #

    Scott, you might want to take a look at the Feminism 101 blog:

    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/06/14/feminism-friday-occasionally-conversations-with-my-man-are-instructive/

    Then repeat the mantra that us feminists are always having to repeat to visitors: “If it’s not about you, then it’s not about you.”

  38. bonobobabe July 22, 2008 at 1:57 PM #

    Well, L did a fantabulous job of stating what I was thinking re Scott’s little whine. So, I’ll refrain.

    But in more general terms, yes patriarchy hurts men, too, because patriarchy goes by other names…religion, capitalism, and civilization. You could argue they are relatives, but I like to think they’re all the same thing, or maybe facets of the same thing, kinda like the father, son, and holy ghost idea.

    Anyway, what (sometimes) happens is that (some) men will ally with women because patriarchy hurts everyone, but then the (some) men stop after they’ve gotten changes made that benefit them, and then the women are left hanging.

    I think it’s damn hard if you’re a man to see how bad women have it. Men haven’t been raised from birth as second class citizens. Men haven’t been socialized to accept abuse, and often are amazed at what women put up with. It’s so hard to see it if it’s not your reality. So, I can understand their limitations in that respect. It’s to be expected, really. But I hate when the men with their puny understanding try to tell women how to conduct their movement.

    And I hate when they deny any political subtext of something which is completely politically loaded. A woman on her knees in front of a man is exactly the same as a man on his knees in front of a woman? Really? Blow jobs are apolitical? Not in this lifetime.

    • Liselotte May 2, 2009 at 6:42 PM #

      I agree with most, disagree with “religion” and would personally rather replace it with “church”. Or rather with: capitalised religion, e.g. capitalism in another one of it’s facets.

  39. gare July 22, 2008 at 5:04 PM #

    I NEVER make the claim that all men are assholes and that none of them want to help.

    HA HA HA thats all you used to say nine deucer, its in your introduction, all men are assholes. Plus you said most women were assholes too. How your blog has changed! It was asshats also, now its assholes, part of a general downslide from enlightment into vulgarity.. you seem far more defensive than you were a couple months ago. What gets me is that you think men need porn to dream up this stuff. This stuff was around before the roman empire. Mens imaginations are far worse than anything depicted in porn. The problem is, no woman can understand the male sex drive. Hell men cant understand it either! Its why we are the dominate species on the planet, humans. Naturally the ones with the wickedest (probably not a word) sex drive prevailed! What I’d like to hear is how you define erotic art – whats acceptable in the deuce-a-topia and what isnt? Also, are you aware you give the impression you sleep with dozens of men? Love ya, I still hope you’ll come around on LOR and Rage!

    gare, who knows little and it generally shows

  40. Nine Deuce July 22, 2008 at 5:41 PM #

    gare – My about page says MOST men are assholes. Also, I’ve never said asshat. My commenters like that term, but I prefer asshole. I’ve always been vulgar.

    As for me seeming defensive, I’ve no clue what you mean. I suppose I do engage other people’s arguments more than I used to, but I’d hardly call that being defensive. I consider it refining my arguments.

    Men may have had this stuff going on in their minds before porn, and that’s where porn comes from. It’s always been about power, and porn is a manifestation of that.

    How in the hell would one get the impression I sleep with dozens of men? First off, I don’t, and I’ve said nothing to indicate that I do. Second, who gives a fuck what I do in my personal life?

  41. buggle July 22, 2008 at 7:54 PM #

    Oooohhhhh, nice blog! So exciting to find another amazing blog! Excellent post, dang!

    I like the name too. Ok if I link you on my little bloggy?

  42. Nine Deuce July 22, 2008 at 8:32 PM #

    Of course. I’ll put you on mine, too, if that’s cool.

  43. buggle July 22, 2008 at 9:04 PM #

    Of course!

  44. Rasputin July 22, 2008 at 10:32 PM #

    The pornographization of our culture is destroying the ability to enjoy sex for what it is, or at least what it should be.

    I seem to recall a time not so long ago, when it was the ultimate turn-on to have your partner initiate oral sex, because he or she WANTED to. When the best part of oral sex was, presumably, the way it FELT. When asking for, or demanding, oral sex, was generally considered pathetic and unacceptable.

    If oral sex doesn’t end in climax, then it is usually foreplay for normal sex. If it does end in climax, then there is going to be some fluid spilled, one way or another. In a perfect world, the one doing the spilling will be mostly concerned with how good it feels, and the one getting spilled on or in will be getting off on the fact that they got their partner off. IMO, if you’re willing to put another person’s genitals in your mouth without some sort of latex barrier in place, then it seems a bit absurd to be overly freaked out about whatever might come out of them.

    Oral sex was so much more enjoyable before it was reduced to talking points in cheesy magazines, and before the shame factor was spread like a cancer and amplified to absurd proportions.

    Women will never gain much self-respect and dignity by loudly refusing to swallow. A better plan would be to do what one feels comfortable with, and just refuse to discuss the matter further. The bigger issue, to me, is how people end up in relationships based on this sort of adversarial bartering. See, again, the pornographization of our culture….

    Personally, as a man, I wouldn’t want to ejaculate in a woman’s mouth just to see her spit my semen out, just as I wouldn’t want to begin frantically scrubbing my tongue and wiping my chin after cunnulingus.

    As far as a man swallowing his own semen is concerned, there is a real problem there, insofar as most men will have wiped off, rolled over, and gone to sleep before they even have a chance to consider it.

  45. Screaming Lemur July 23, 2008 at 1:00 AM #

    I gave up on ejaculate in general when I started to have a “Lady MacBeth reaction” after sex: “Out, out, damn jizz!” Fortunately I don’t have that problem anymore.
    And Nine Deuce, are you aware you give the impression you sleep with dozens of men? Because you do, somehow. And that’s a serious problem, and some anonymous jagoff on the internet is concerned about it! You trollop, you! Get thee to a nunnery! Where would we be if we just had [consensual] sex with whomever we wanted to, all willy-nilly, as though this was a free country? DOZENS OF MEN!!11!!eleven!!1
    …I’m sorry, I felt the need to abuse sarcasm.

  46. L July 23, 2008 at 4:47 AM #

    Women will never gain much self-respect and dignity by loudly refusing to swallow.

    I love when men tell me what will and will not give me self-respect.

  47. Nine Deuce July 23, 2008 at 5:51 AM #

    I liked that, too, L. But he’s got it backwards. I’d loudly refuse to swallow BECAUSE I’ve got dignity and self-respect, not as an attempt to gain it (not that I plan to ever be in a position to need to loudly refuse to swallow, because I don’t hang out with assholes).

  48. bonobobabe July 23, 2008 at 1:53 PM #

    Personally, as a man, I wouldn’t want to ejaculate in a woman’s mouth just to see her spit my semen out, just as I wouldn’t want to begin frantically scrubbing my tongue and wiping my chin after cunnulingus.

    Why not? Would your feelings be hurt to see her spit it out? If so, that’s stupid. Sex is messy. There’s no reason to make a big display of being grossed out and rushing to shower and gargle and brush teeth, but I personally am not offended if someone wipes their chin afterwards. Also, the amount and flavor of female secretions that a man has to deal with is significantly less and better tasting than what women have to deal with. So, you can’t argue that everything has to be equal, because it’s not. Also, the method of delivery is significantly different. It’s one thing to put your mouth and tongue on something that is, for lack of a better word, oozing liquid that tastes kinda like mozzerella cheese or yogurt, and putting something large in your mouth that takes up all the room and then have this large thing squirt something towards the back of your throat that tastes really bad and has the consistency of snot and phlegm. And not just any snot…sinus infection snot. Sorry, but they’re completely different.

    Also, I used to work in a fertility clinic for a year. I ran blood tests for hormone levels for women and I did semen analysis and prepared semen for insemination. Anyway, most ejaculate is about 2 ml, give or take, but there are always exceptions. Sometimes, the guy would bring the specimen cup filled up. I don’t remember the volume of those cups, but they are the cups you would use to give a urine specimen. So, we’re talking a large volume. Would you want to swallow, or even have in your mouth such a large volume of nasty tasting spunk?
    Not to mention the specimen we got from one dude which was pretty solid. It looked like a booger in the bottom of the cup. Would you want that hitting the back of your throat?

    I’m sorry if men are offended because their jizz isn’t the nectar of the gods. It tastes bad. Who cares? Get over it.

    If I were a man, and I knew that my jizz was copious and foul tasting, I wouldn’t expect a woman to swallow it, or even allow it in her mouth. I wouldn’t be offended. It’s not a matter of romance or being offended. It’s a practical matter. Like I said, sex is messy. I don’t like to sleep on the wet spot either. If someone was offended that I moved over to avoid the wet spot, that would be stupid, just like being offended that a woman doesn’t relish the taste of man juice.

  49. buggle July 23, 2008 at 4:51 PM #

    Oh dear, not a good post to read during lunch, bonobobabe :) Good points though.

    I tried swallowing once (well, really just let him come in my mouth). It shot to the back of my throat, I gagged and spit it all out. Gross. Won’t be doing that again.

  50. Maggie Hays July 23, 2008 at 7:36 PM #

    Nine, I just read this “Cosmo sucks” post of yours and I think it’s a pretty accurate feminist analysis of the practice of swallowing semen (this is totally yucky awful!) and how dudes want this practice from their girlfriends ’cause it’s degrading to women.

    I agree that we should all girlcott Cosmo (I already do). These so-called “women’s magazines” reek of patriarchal sexuality, they’re brainwashing products of pornified culture.

    Shame many young girls read this Cosmo crap & are trained (deceived) to submit to male supremacy, and then later many of ‘em will suffer self-hatred ’cause they’ll have been less able to resist sexual coercion. (I mean, self-hatred is highly common in survivors of abuse).

    Excellent post, Nine! :)

    Where is the slur? If men’s motive for wanting women to swallow doesn’t stem from a desire for power, whence does it come?

    Exactly, Nine. this comes from masculine desire for domination & pornified culture and nothing else.

  51. Dan July 24, 2008 at 2:00 AM #

    Clearly Cosmo represents the pinnacle of journalism. We ought to send them a mock-up award.

  52. Nine Deuce July 24, 2008 at 2:14 AM #

    Yeah, they’re really breaking barriers.

  53. Genevieve July 24, 2008 at 4:04 AM #

    Y’know, a mainstream magazine that advocated healthy exploration of sexuality for women would be a good thing. Cosmo is not that magazine. Such a magazine might talk about swallowing semen–but they’d present it as just one option among several, not as the thing all people should do. They might give tips for how to make this option more pleasent for the woman (this might veer into TMI but I find having a cough drop handy to suck on afterwards helps a lot). They might say why, exactly, men enjoy having their partner swallow their semen. But they wouldn’t advocate it as the right thing to do, always.

    Cosmo is not such a magazine.

    Sexual behavior should always be about choice. For example, I (and hopefully most sane women and men) would be fucking appalled if Cosmo said: “Hey girls, if you’re not in the mood to have sex with your man, it’s not right to say no. Just lay back and think of something more pleasent while he has his way with you. You are his, after all.” Because that’s obviously patriarchal.

    Well, so’s this. Swallow if you want. Don’t if you don’t. Don’t let anyone tell you your choices make you less sexy or desirable as a partner.

  54. chlorophyll July 24, 2008 at 5:24 AM #

    Damn Deuce, 53 posts. Your blog is gettin’ big!

    Swallowing semen is an issue between two intimate people. Doing the act in itself “because you like how it tastes” regardless of who the hell is squirting it out is just nasty and awkward. Exchanging numbers, spit, and bodily fluids with a complete stranger is equally nasty and awkward. Sex, and especially oral sex, is made out to be some awesome journey/destination by the media but it’s actually a very awkward interaction between two people if you think about it. A man, inserting his penis in your mouth and vagina, without the natural urge to procreate? It is so absurd if you sit down and think about it. Sex is stupid. It only means something when … actually, it doesn’t mean something at all. Sex stops being stupid when your hormones and chemistry are enough to override the utter awkwardness of it all.

  55. Rasputin July 24, 2008 at 4:47 PM #

    “I love when men tell me what will and will not give me self-respect.”

    “I liked that, too, L. But he’s got it backwards. I’d loudly refuse to swallow BECAUSE I’ve got dignity and self-respect, not as an attempt to gain it (not that I plan to ever be in a position to need to loudly refuse to swallow, because I don’t hang out with assholes).”

    Points well taken. That’s what I was trying to get at. By the time you are haggling over swallowing with your sex partner, the situation is already all fucked up.

    I understand that I can’t TELL anybody what will give them self-respect. To tell you the truth, I think I inserted the “self-” part as an afterthought, thinking that self-respect in this area is the only thing that really matters. Though I meant it more as an observation/prediction, I do see the problem with the statement, insofar as I shifted it from society- which we are all able to observe and comment on to a larger extent- to the self, which we can only ever really guess at.

    Also, seeing as both men and women put penises in their mouths, my statement should have been “NOBODY will gain much self-respect or dignity by loudly refusing to swallow.” My bad.

    If you are comfortable with the choices you make in this regard, and feel no need to discuss them, then my statement would indeed have it “backwards”. But then, you also pointed out that you don’t hang out with assholes that would require you to have such an argument. If you DID hang out with such assholes, then you might not respect yourself as much, right? Especially if you already recognized that they were assholes. In such a case, you might be seeking to regain some self-respect….

    I can’t really say that my feelings would be hurt if someone spit my semen out, but in such a case, I just wouldn’t see the point of depositing it there in the first place. Ejaculating into someone else’s mouth is not a necessary part of sex for me, and I wouldn’t be doing it in the first place if my partner didn’t clearly indicate that they wanted me to. I would therefore be confused by such a scenario.

    And, bonobobabe, thank you for addressing me in the first person.

  56. Nine Deuce July 24, 2008 at 4:52 PM #

    By the time someone is haggling over swallowing, the situation is indeed fucked up, because the person who is being asked to swallow and doesn’t want to ought to tell the other person to fuck right off.

  57. Rasputin July 24, 2008 at 4:55 PM #

    I mean, second person. My bad.

  58. Scott July 25, 2008 at 2:13 PM #

    L, I’m sorry for being unclear. My point isn’t about me, and I made the message even less clear by trying at the same time to illustrate how I think I’m a counterexample to these unqualified declarations. The more important message was just about ally/feminist men, not me.

    I’m sorry too that my participating here has caused you so much angst that you feel the need to resort to name-calling. I sorry for my part in getting you into that mental and emotional space.

    L, in your anger you told me to STFU and get to the back of the feminist bus. There’s the exercise of power that is necessary for sexism. You accused me of getting mad when you call me on your crap, but that’s the crap I’ve been calling out. As soon as there are gatekeepers to feminism there is the taint of power, of who gets to decide whose words have value, not to themselves, but to others.

    L, you’re right that I didn’t engage with the overt topic of the post. I was engaging instead with what I saw as a flawed premise that made engaging with the topic less than meaningful.

    Nine Deuce, you’ve been very fair in your responses, and expressed genuine curiosity about what I was trying to say. I think that’s admirable. I’m not advising you to make your message more palatable. Rather, there is something in the message that I think goes against what you are trying to achieve. I see inconsistencies in this brand of feminism that you’re aiming to spread.

    No-one will ever be a Perfect Feminist in their theory, let alone have their actions line up perfectly with it. I hope that you’ll keep an open mind about the need to re-evaluated and improve both one’s own feminism, and the practice of it. It’s fundamental to what I’m doing in being resistive, and I would hope that it’s not only “allies” that feel like they can’t rest on their laurels.

  59. L July 25, 2008 at 6:00 PM #

    Whatever, dude. You don’t get it, and it’s plainly obvious. I was going to try to explain it — yet again — but you’re absolutely fucking clueless. I have more important shit to do with my time than remind a dude who thinks he’s a feminist/ally that telling women feminists how to do feminism is the first thing you DON’T do as an ally.

    WHY ARE YOU RESISTING OTHER FEMINISTS? This is not productive or constructive. I think that’s my major problem with this conversation. Instead of going out and fighting patriarchal oppressions somewhere where nothing positive is being done, you’re in here telling feminists to do things your way because you’re feeling disempowered.

    If I didn’t know better, and maybe I really don’t, I’d be calling your perspective rather MRA-ish, Scott.

  60. Nine Deuce July 25, 2008 at 6:44 PM #

    Scott – The fact is, there is a need for leadership for any movement to succeed (I am not claiming to be a part of that leadership in any way), and while that leadership needs to take account of the differences among the people in the movement, it is not beholden to the wishes of those who have less of a claim on the movement’s energies than others. Meaning, while you may be ethically drawn to feminism because it is a concrete movement against the tyrannies of patriarchal and oppressive social systems, you are not really the person that feminism is here to help, and your concerns are thus less important than those of women feminists. And, connected to that, you cannot stand at the front of the movement. You can offer your input, but you can’t direct anything.

    Some hierarchies (or at least value judgments) are necessary in the world. The problem is that they are often decided by privileged birth rather than logic and merit, and that they are abused. You may have a problem with power hierarchies, but until someone tells me what a post-power world would look like (which Foucault couldn’t even do), I have no other choice but to believe in the possibility of enlightened leadership.

    I do my best to qualify my statements and avoid generalizations, and I will continue to do so, but in the end what matters most to me is that I call attention to misogyny and to women’s experiences and needs. I can’t always make everyone happy, and if I have to make a choice, I’m going to choose to do right by women, because they need it more than you do. I’ll avoid having to make that choice when I can, but sometimes generalizations have to be made to get through an argument.

    Anyway, I don’t particularly see, in the context of this post, why it even matters. The post is about men who pressure people to do things they aren’t comfortable with. If you don’t do that, what is the problem? If you are asking people to swallow, rather than allowing them to make the choice, aren’t you being manipulative? If you’re not doing it, then you aren’t the guy I’m talking about here.

    There is a difference between what I’m saying above and making a generalization based on gender. For example, men often talk about women being gold diggers. The difference is that they’re saying all women are gold diggers, whereas I’m saying that ONLY the men who push their partners to do something rather than letting them make the decision of their own accord are the problem, at least as far as this post is concerned.

  61. Spartakos August 1, 2008 at 7:23 PM #

    “And that is, my friends, what men’s desire to have their partners swallow is all about. Ask any dude if he wants to power down a tablespoon of semen, and he’ll probably tell you to do one: “That shit’s fucking sick, dude! What, do you think I’m some kind of fag?” But yet the same dude expects his girlfriend to be all about it.”

    So how do you explain/respond to men who have no problem swallowing semen (bi men, or men like myself who have tasted their own)? I don’t ‘expect’ my partner to be all about it…I just don’t see why it’s a big deal. Semen is not particularly disgusting (to me).

    “You see, in our pornographized culture, that’s what sex is about to most dudes: getting women to do things they don’t want to do or are uncomfortable with (swallowing semen, “doing” anal, threesomes, you get the point). When a woman submits to a sex act she isn’t that into, the dude she’s with gets excited because he’s been given proof that he has power over her, and what in the sam hill is sexier to the porn-addled male mind than domination, than seeing a woman “willingly” submit to a sex act she isn’t comfortable with in order to further bloat his turgid ego?”

    While this is undoubtedly true in some cases, don’t you think you’re making an overly broad generalization by saying that every instance of a man liking a woman to swallow his semen is automatically about domination?
    My wife doesn’t swallow…she doesn’t even do oral anymore, because she says she no longer enjoys it. And that’s cool with me. But that doesn’t mean I don’t find the thought of her going down on me (with or without swallowing) isn’t erotic, or that I wouldn’t be happy to have her enjoy it again. And it doesn’t mean that my enjoyment of oral sex and swallowing is connected to my “domination” of her.

    As to your suggestions, if they were offered honestly and not tongue-in-cheek:

    “Sure, I’ll do that if it turns you on, but you know what I’m into? Seeing dudes drink my piss. Get a cup.”

    I’d explain that I’m not into drinking piss. If she’s likewise not into drinking semen, then we’re both cool.

    “If you’re so excited by the thought of seeing someone ingest your bodily fluids, how about I drink some of your blood? I’ve got a knife right here.”

    Hmm…watching her drink my blood doesn’t turn me on, but if it turns her on, she’s welcome to do it.

    “You down a dose of it first and tell me how you like it, then we’ll see.”

    Awesome. Give me a sec. (why do you assume guys are so paranoid about swallowing semen?)

    “I don’t want to. Go fuck yourself. Also, get out of my house. I don’t date dudes who are into coercing women into doing things they don’t want to do.”

    So…asking a woman to do something I find sexually enjoyable (in a polite way, with free opportunity to refuse) is somehow automatically coercing?
    Whatever.

    There are plenty of ways I think guys are coercive about sexuality with women, and I think that’s wrong. But asking them to swallow isn’t (IMO) one of them. Swallowing semen isn’t a big deal (I’ve done it), any more than swallowing a woman’s pussy juice is a big deal (I’ve done that too).

  62. L August 1, 2008 at 8:18 PM #

    Hey, Spartakos, when you’re a woman asked/demanded/expected to swallow, then you can talk about whether it’s a “big deal” or not. As it is, we’re not talking about bisexual dudes or even men who don’t expect or demand that their female partners swallow. It might help if you read the whole conversation in the comments because we’ve already covered this territory, and you look like an idiot now.

  63. Nine Deuce August 1, 2008 at 9:18 PM #

    Spartakos – I know a lot of dudes who have ingested their own semen, and every single one of them has told me that after he did it, he never again wondered why women don’t want to. I don’t doubt that there are people who don’t mind it, but no one should be asking anyone to do it. Asking someone to swallow is manipulative. If they wanted to do it, they would. Asking puts pressure on the person being asked, which means they’ll refuse and feel like they aren’t pleasing their partner, or acquiesce and be uncomfortable/grossed out/whatever.

  64. kellum August 17, 2008 at 6:52 AM #

    i know plenty of guys who go down on girls when theyre on their periods. you just do it carefully. and that has nothing to do with power, its about sharing the pleasure of sex. and why the hell would i give a man a blow job and get all horny and not get to have sex or even get off. ‘blow job week’ is for assholes who think they deserve sex no matter if shes into it or not, just cuz you bought her dinner.

  65. Catwings September 16, 2008 at 7:43 AM #

    I know I’m a little late on this but I have a suggestion or two for the worst songs ever made list:

    Bad Company, ‘Feel like Makin’ Love’

    I think Gwen Stefani’s “This Sh*t is Bananas” is a safe bet (although I do have a sure-fire way of remembering how to spell ‘bananas’ now) and why don’t we go ahead and throw in Avril Lavigne, ‘Girlfriend.’ (I mean, it doesn’t even rhyme.) I’m not sure about this last one, but perhaps Manfred Mann, ‘Blinded by the Light.’

    That is either one of the most nonsensical songs ever, or a work of art. As of yet, I personally haven’t decided which.

  66. Nine Deuce September 16, 2008 at 5:41 PM #

    Holy shit. “Feel Like Makin’ Love” is truly a repulsive song. I can’t believe I forgot about it. I’m not sure if there is anything funny about it or not. I mean, I can imagine a contrived context in which a joke could be made out of it, but that’s it. OK, it’s going on the compilation.

    I don’t think I know that Gwen Stefani song by name (though I’m sure I’d know it if I heard it), but I’m willing to bet it belongs on the list.

    Avril Lavigne makes the cut, too.

  67. isme September 20, 2008 at 8:20 AM #

    Hollaback Girl. Particularly memorable in that it includes lyrics about her being in high school, and she was 36 when it came out. That leotard thingy she was wearing in the videoclip didn’t help either. Christ, you’re an established musician, you can afford some dignity now.

    Back on topic though. Why is a request, by either party, for the other to do something they might object to? Swallowing semen, watersports, fursuits, whatever, the person can always politely decline.

  68. Mr Roboto February 6, 2009 at 7:59 AM #

    But, but….

    I think I can explain the male interest in swallowing.

    Too much thoughts here are wasted on “power dynamics”…

    Come on…

    He simply wants to have an orgasm during oral sex, which is simply not possible if he pulls out before he comes. Condoms could be the alternative here. They will taste better, but of course weaken the sensation he feels.

    Equality is the way to go here. One is biased to expect his partner to go down on himself but refuse to the same because of taste. I personally do not like the taste of vaginal fluids and pretty much keep my mouth away from it. But well everyone is different I guess.

    So, maybe even someone reads that….out

    !

    • syndicalist702 May 6, 2009 at 7:26 PM #

      “He simply wants to have an orgasm during oral sex, which is simply not possible if he pulls out before he comes. “

      Bullshit. Complete bullshit.

  69. bryony1 February 7, 2009 at 2:52 AM #

    “Same thing with swallowing. When I was coming of age, it wasn’t pushed on women/girls. In fact, blow jobs weren’t demanded, and cunnilingus was pretty common.”

    I know for a fact that men have been insisting on blowjobs since 1963. Insisting on swallowing came a bit later, but not by much. And cunnilingus didn’t even get any respect until the “Joy of Sex” came out in the ’70s, and there are still guys who will do it but let you know they are only doing it because YOU want it.

    To me the most degrading, appalling act is ejaculating into a woman’s face. In the pornography industry, it’s called “the money shot” and few films don’t contain this scene. One’s face is not a sex organ. One’s face reflects who one is. Jacking off into one’s face is the height of disrespect to the person whose face it is.

    As for swallowing, no, it’d be like swallowing slime. Even blowjobs get tiresome, hurt the corners of one’s mouth if the guy prolongs his orgasm and make it hard to breathe, especially the bigger the guy. And ones with foreskins! Oh, God, spare me!

    • Imaginary September 28, 2009 at 2:46 AM #

      OmL! I saw a picture of the Joker next to a bottle of lube that said “How he REALLY got those scars”.

      Anyway, can’t having a dick in your mouth make you vomit from the pressure on your uvula?

  70. m Andrea February 7, 2009 at 3:55 AM #

    That last bit made me laugh for the first time in a while. Thank you.

    Plus, I need to shave. lol

  71. karinova January 17, 2010 at 6:31 AM #

    Sorry for the long-comment-on-an-old-post, but:
    Any guy who gives even a speck of a shit about where his spooge ends up is a fucking asshole. Period.

    Because seriously: why should he care? If the juice is loose, he had an orgasm, and presumably his partner got him there. What kind of power-tripping nutjob is on the verge of an orgasm/in the post orgasm glow, and has the presence of mind to be bullying people??

    As for cunnilingus, three things. One, the existence of puerile slang for a thing does not mean the thing exists to any significant degree. (See: “donkey punch.”) I’m not saying there aren’t men who will go downtown when their partner is on her period; I’m just saying that people talking about “red wings” does not mean they’re doing it. (Unless, um, that’s specifically what they’re saying.)
    Two, men as a group have spent so much time and energy convincing women that their netherbits are toxic (“ugh. only if you take a shower first!”) that half the time, those men who do want to do it have to beg their tensed-up girlfriends to even let them go there. Sadly, I think there are a lot of women out there who are not able to enjoy cunnilingus as much as most men enjoy fellatio. Lame. Which leads me to item 3:
    It’s gotten so that in discussions like this, it’s sometimes kind of hard to tell who’s genuinely enthusiastic about wanting to go down, and who’s… I don’t know, stunting? Now that the supposed norm is “omigosh ew no way,” men can bandy their relative “enthusiasm” about like a fucking badge of honor. (As some have perhaps done here?) “Well, I don’t know what those pussies are on about. I, as that Rare Willing Guy, am a damn special snowflake of a Real Man.” I can’t put my finger on it, but there’s something hinky about it.

  72. karinova January 17, 2010 at 6:33 AM #

    Oh, and, I just about died laughing at bonobobabe’s comment on July 21, 2008. Dude lost his erection due to the overwhelming anxiety of having to deal with his partner’s (fairly basic) desires. Hie just plain couldn’t function unless he was free to spray his ejaculate wherever. How cosmically perfect is that? If only that would always happen.

  73. Immir March 4, 2010 at 2:19 AM #

    I love it here… *sigh*

  74. Judith April 6, 2011 at 10:10 AM #

    I may be a little bit in love with you.

    I’ve told my fiance I’ll swallow if he does it first…and happy to say the issue isn’t brought up because of it.

    I really hate cosmo and it makes me hate people a little bit knowing there are so many women out there who regard it as “the relationship bible”

    Of course it’s these same women who wonder why they are chronically single and can’t keep a man.

    http://www.cracked.com/article_19066_7-psychotic-pieces-relationship-advice-from-cosmo.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

  75. joy April 7, 2011 at 6:51 PM #

    Be careful, don’t blame women. If it weren’t for men who are very invested in keeping a class of women confused and subservient, there would be no Cosmo, and thus no confused and emotionally damaged women who’ve followed Cosmo’s advice.

  76. Amethyst September 8, 2014 at 6:13 PM #

    I’m not sure if you are still active on this blog or if you will see this comment, but I am glad that I ran into this. I haven’t had any sexual experience yet, I don’t have a boyfriend currently, but I have been reading about sex lately on various discussion forums, mostly for curiosity and to see what people think of certain things regarding sex. I did read about oral sex too, and it seems to me that many women find the idea of swallowing completely normal (maybe it’s guys pretending to be women but let’s say it really is women) which made me wonder if there is something wrong with my attitudes on this because I find the idea of swallowing or even having semen in my mouth absolutely repulsive. I’m not even completely comfortable with the idea of oral sex (even though I will probably overcome that when I’m older), let alone having male bodily fluids in my mouth.I googled about it a bit to see if there are girls who agree with my, but I happened to ran more into comments of those who are doing it and that actually made me a bit insecure about my future love life since I don’t want to do this and if there is so many women who are okay with the idea,I suppose there are even more guys who like it and want it and who are ready to break up if a girl says no? What I found funny is that there were a lot of comments saying something along the lines of “I do it because I love my husband/boyfriend and I want to please him”. Since when refusing to do a certain sex act you aren’t comfortable with means that you love your partner less or vice versa? I actually asked a male friend of mine about how does he feel with the idea of finishing on a woman’s face or mouth and he said he doesn’t consider this to be normal so I guess there are guys out who aren’t crazy at all about this. I really can’t understand why certain guys are so stuck on this when there are so many other things you can do to spice up your sex life and make it interesting. What is more, it seems that many guys are so bothered my the fact that their girlfriend doesn’t let them finish in their mouth (or doesn’t want to swallow) that they would be ready to break up just for that one little detail even though the relationship is great on so many other levels. I hope I don’t run into assholes like those, even if I do, I won’t let anyone pushing me to do something I don’t want to since I’m not a sex toy and I, like everyone, have the right to dislike certain things in sex. I’m really glad to see that there are women who agree with me and that I have some supporters on this subject haha.

    • Nine Deuce September 9, 2014 at 6:54 PM #

      Porn culture has unfortunately instilled a sense of entitlement in men to whatever they see occurring in the material they wank to, but that isn’t your problem. You have every right to set your own sexual boundaries, and anyone who would break up with you over them deserves a kick in the ass on his way out.

    • Nine Deuce September 9, 2014 at 6:55 PM #

      Oh, and also, anyone who demands to ejaculate on someone’s face ought to be put in some kind of camp.

      • Amethyst September 11, 2014 at 5:12 PM #

        Hahaha yes, I agree with you completely. Nice to see that I have supporters, thanks girl!

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