I would like to see men involved, that would make my heart soar. As Juston said- a racial movement should involve all, not just the opressed, and I think feminism should be for all. It might just be some time before we find genuine male contributors.

I’ve been grappling with the question of when to believe privileged people want to help an oppressed group, particularly as I am sufficiently attached to ideas of “we should all be fair, and we should try not to be ignorant” to frequently try and speak up for other groups of people. I’ve done this badly sometimes, as evidenced by having been burned, and have now been convinced merely to point people in the right direction. I’m not an economist: I don’t believe self-interest supersedes everything.

So, among the guys I know well, there are several I also could trust, and when I complain of sexism they try to see my perspective and talk about it. If any of them were to start talking frequently about feminism on their own, I might ask them why but I would believe their answers. (One of them was probably more aware than I of society’s misogyny before I opened my eyes properly.) I guess my more optimistic view is: if you know a man well in person, that doesn’t make it sure you can trust him or anything, but it means that you can judge him by his actions and you’ll probably know if he’s true to his words. Support is a good thing, but that means loudly declaiming feminist issues is not as good a sign of a male ally as is listening to what one feminist has to say. When they have listened and learned, they tend to try to stop the misogyny most immediately around them (you know, other guys’ jokes and so on). Women, too, may talk of feminism and then act out misogyny (e.g. I’ve had to choke down the impulse to say “bitch” after a confrontation with a rude woman, or to assume that a woman is brainless because her titillating dress or manner makes me uncomfortable).

So I’m throwing opinions into the mix, and what I take away from other comments is that most of us won’t claim that no men are truly sympathetic to our cause–just don’t expect us to wait around for them.

And I completely agree with you on being forced to trust men for fear of being called exclusionary. I have no reason to trust men, yet I have to otherwise I’ll hurt their pwecious widdew feewings.

No misunderstanding. Don’t worry, I don’t believe you’ve ever implied there was any excuse for it. Everything’s alright, Genevieve. :)

There is. . .

Maggie–
Yeah, he was into porn. But I’d take the average porn-watching male who admits to being such any day over a hypocrite like this guy who claims to be anti-porn and an ally of women who are anti-porn and then watches illegal, non-consensual child pornography and assaults a woman.

At least with Dude #1 you know who you’re getting, take him or leave him.

That still doesn’t excuse the so many other porn using males who coerce women into sex. I’m not saying all porn users coerce but many do, or are, at least, somehow “pushy” in bed. I know that from experience.

But, yeah, Genevieve, at least with dude #1, you know what he’s up to.

Though I’d be more skeptical & suspicious of men who say they’re allies, I guess I wouldn’t write ‘em off (yet). I’d want proof.

But, hey, as I said in this thread:

“I still believe that we have to be very careful of male allies in the future though, try to find a way of making sure they are genuine or something like that. But how can we?”

And there is a whole lot to be bothered by with Kyle Payne in general.