Porn Part 8: Rights vs. Privileges

25 Apr

There is a lot of confusion in the world today as to what constitutes a “right.” Seriously, if you think about it, the idea of a “right” that inheres in a human being but transcends the will of human beings is pretty weird. That’s why there are very few cultures outside of those that inherited the idea from ancient Rome that even have a linguistic equivalent for the word “right.” For example, the Chinese translation of “right” is the word quanli, which also means “privilege.” If you take the two characters quan and li on their own, they mean “power” and “benefit,” so the Chinese equivalent for the word “right” could be translated as “the benefits that derive from power.” The “right” as it is conceived of in the western legal and social traditions is not an easy concept to grasp in its entirety, even for those of us who have grown up with the concept. Even in western countries in which the definition of the word “right” is more or less agreed upon, we can’t seem to come to a consensus on what should be considered a right for every human being.

Let me tell you about a rather stupid situation I found myself in a few weeks ago. I’m going to Kauai in January and have a reservation for a rental car, and I need to have a driver’s license to pick that car up. I realized a few weeks ago that my California license was expired and that it had been for just over a year. I don’t drive in New York because I’m neither rich nor stupid, so I hadn’t given the status of my license much thought since I moved here. I called the New York DMV and told them I needed to come down and trade in my expired California license for a New York one, and they told me to piss off since it had been expired for over a year. In an attempt to weasel my way out of dealing with the tests and driving lessons involved in getting a New York license, I called the California DMV and tried to get them to send me a renewal. They also told me to piss off and that I had to come back to California if I wanted a California license. I made up some sob story and told them I couldn’t live without a driver’s license, and the DMV agent repeated the line I first heard in License to Drive and would come to hear on a daily basis as I made my way through driver’s ed: “A driver’s license is a privilege, not a right.”

Whatever your thoughts are on whether the government has any place deciding who can and can’t drive a car, you have to admit that in the grand scheme of things my “right” to drive legally is really not that important when one compares it to other phenomena to which rights normally attach; I’m a little more concerned with my right to not get killed, raped, or detained by government officials for no reason. Arguing with the woman at the DMV that I have a “right” to rent a car and drive it around does, on final analysis, seem pretty stupid and whiny, does it not? Eh, fuck her. The DMV and its employees are all assholes.

Still, it got me to thinking. People seem seriously confused about the difference between a right and a privilege these days. Deciding what falls under the rubric of “rights” is a difficult task, and gaining any kind of universal consensus (even on the most basic of human rights) is nearly impossible because the discussion is landmined with the participants’ conflicting cultural and religious values. Fuck, we haven’t even reached the point where we can agree that we all have the right to not be murdered. “Culture” gives everyone who wants one a handy excuse for barbarous behavior, and the weenies who come from places where rights have come to include the right to act like an asshole if one’s “culture” says it’s OK don’t seem to want to raise any kind of serious objections to people in Afghanistan stoning women to death for having the temerity to have been raped, to gangs of soldiers raping women and children left and right in Darfur, to the international sex trade in which women and children are held against their will and raped repeatedly not just in filthy dens of iniquity in Asia, but even in American and European cities.

It’s a little odd to think that we don’t seem to see many people taking a serious stand in their daily lives to secure and protect basic human rights for these people, but that we have dumbasses like Lars Larsen harping on the radio every day about the government’s having violated his “rights” by forcing him to wear a seat belt when he doesn’t feel like it. Or people like [insert local Libertarian idiot radio talk show "personality" here] whining about the fact that inheritance taxes infringe upon the “rights” of people like Chuck Bass. Or Larry Flynt crying over a perceived threat to his “right” to free speech coming from feminists/human beings with morals who don’t think he ought to be allowed to profit from hate speech and disseminate anti-woman propaganda with impunity.

What we are seeing in each of these examples is classic rights inflation coupled with willful myopia. These over-privileged, whiny little assholes who’ve never had to deal with any sort of serious infringement upon their rights (even if we conceive of the term “rights” broadly to include life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, a big house, a pure-bred Labrador, unlimited micro-brews, a big-ass truck, a higher salary than their talent and skills warrant, more social prestige than their worth as human beings can account for, and the freedom to act like Larry the Cable guy and then ask people to take their points of view seriously) have come to see their privileges as rights, and to use language that ought to be reserved for decrying the most egregious of abominations to defend those privileges. They think they have a “right” to say/publish/broadcast whatever hateful, demagogic bullshit comes into their Coors Light-saturated cortexes, but are totally unwilling to take the rights of those affected by what they’ve said/published/broadcast into account. They have a “right” to drive around with no seat belt on, but want to reserve the “right” to sue someone who hits them for causing injuries the seat belt could have prevented. They claim a “right” to keep every cent of money they receive in an inheritance, despite the fact that it’s a windfall that they didn’t even earn, ignoring their debt to the social and economic structures (which can’t exist without government intervention) that allowed that wealth to accumulate.

And don’t even get me started on MRAs. Those motherfuckers think that their “rights” are in danger every time someone sneezes.

And this is where porn comes in. Men have come to assume that using porn is a right. How many of my readers have been in a relationship with a dude who thinks he’s entitled to use porn and that it’s your responsibility to “get over it”? How many of my male readers have used porn while in a relationship, knowing that it made your partner uncomfortable (or worse)? How many of my readers know someone who is struggling with the feelings of anger, betrayal, and inadequacy that a partner’s porn use has created? Why, might I ask my male porn-using readers, do you feel entitled to do something that hurts someone you (purportedly) care about?

I have a suggestion for women who are dealing with a porn-using partner: start making out with other men until he stops. Tell him it isn’t cheating because there’s no penetration — and because you don’t feel anything for the other men — and that he’s lucky because you’re coming home to him. Tell him that, since it isn’t technically cheating, he has no right to try to tell you what to do. And then tell him he’s being a hysterical, whiny little bitch if he doesn’t just get over it, that he’s just jealous. I know, yeah right.

I know men don’t want to give up using porn. Why should they when they know they don’t have to? It’s there, it’s often free, it does the job they want it to do, and they’ve already convinced everyone that they’re entitled to do so. Maybe because it hurts the people involved in its production, it hurts the women who have to deal with men who use it, and because it hurts the women they are in relationships with. A man who uses porn while he’s in a relationship is basically saying to his partner, “I care more about the fact that I want jerking off to be quicker and easier than I do about the fact that someone I’m jerking off to might be being raped, about the fact that it hurts you and damages your self esteem and security in our relationship, about the fact that it is detrimental to our sex life.” He’s also quite plainly telling her that he sees women as objects, herself included (unless he’s a “separater,” in which case he sees some women as objects and others as Snow White).

I’ve said this before, but let me make myself perfectly clear: using pornography in a relationship amounts to emotional abuse. It is not a woman’s responsibility to “get over” the damage that her partner’s porn use causes. It is his responsibility to stop causing the damage. Despite what our ever more porn-addled culture wants to tell us, men do not have a right to use pornography. Pornography exists because men run shit in a patriarchy, and because the use of women’s bodies is one of the chief privileges mean reap from a patriarchy. Sure, almost everyone may do it, but what the fuck does that mean? Just because a privilege is a norm does not make it a right.

Men might not come out and say they conceive of using porn as a right, but their arguments in the face of their partners’ objections make it fairly clear that they see it that way. The men who take issue with my analysis of the porn industry consider using porn to be a right, or else they wouldn’t bother arguing that they ought to be able to continue doing something that has been proved to be detrimental to women’s lives. Dudes in general feel entitled to unfettered access to women’s bodies, and to unfettered access to footage of any pervy thing they can dream up being done to women’s bodies. They’ve gotten so used to privileged access to women’s bodies that they’ve come to see it as their right as men. That, my dear readers, is complete fucking bullshit.

Heterosexual women have three choices when it comes to this: avoid men (if only it were possible to will oneself into lesbianism), find a dude who will respect our emotional boundaries, or tolerate being abused emotionally. Only one of those options is acceptable, and when more of us start making that clear, more of them will have to come to grips with the fact that they are not, in fact, entitled to shit, and that having sexual access to women is a privilege, not a right. Think of it like driving.

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222 Responses to “Porn Part 8: Rights vs. Privileges”

  1. syndicalist702 October 20, 2008 at 11:11 PM #

    Porn use is not a right. It’s a hate crime. It should be considered grounds for divorce. I am thankful for the day I decided to quit using it, and the wake-up call my wife gave me that influenced that change. I also regard the fact that my imagination, creativity, and respect are slowly redeveloping as a result of not letting pornographers think for me. Yes, after ten years of marriage, C… and I are going through a period of slow renewal.

    I have to realize, though, that the wounds I caused will take time to heal and that, as such, she deserves my patience and consideration. Real men respect women.

    Real men don’t use porn.

    • crissymissy October 23, 2009 at 2:10 PM #

      Hi! Please elaborate on your wife’s wake-up call tactics? I need tips on how to start my campaign!

      (Sorry 9D but my boyfriend is already the jealous type so cannot use makeout strategy, plus I hate making out because of an irrationally strong fear of oral herpes!)

  2. Mary Tracy9 October 20, 2008 at 11:18 PM #

    Awesome post. The differences between rights and priviliges should be discussed more often.

    As it’s often said, “your right ends when mine begins”.

    Keep up the good work, Nine Deuce! The world needs it :D

  3. pisaquari October 21, 2008 at 12:49 AM #

    “Men might not come out and say they conceive of using porn as a right, but their arguments in the face of their partners’ objections make it fairly clear that they see it that way.”

    People generally believe they have a *right* to express their innate selves. That’s what this comes down to: men believe these are inborn responses–some sort of brain circuitry. We could condition ourselves to find just about anything/person arousing with the right media and societal reification.
    It’s a lazy, convenient and inaccurate argument.

    Your porn series rules.

  4. Bill October 21, 2008 at 1:00 AM #

    Strange but true: My ex-wife was a porn freak. She would rent movies, and, in the days before the Internet hit big, she would log on to a local BBS (Bulletin Board System) and write descriptions for the pictures. I was embarrased.

    Part of my anti-porn nature was probably based in my religious upbringing. I’m out of the hocus pocus cloud man schtick, but I suppose that background may play just as much a part in my attitude as my desire to be the best person I can.

    In any case, I applaud you for pointing out that you don’t have to be a religious nut to be against porn – there are REAL legitimate reasons besides “Preacher says so”.

  5. atheist woman October 21, 2008 at 1:22 AM #

    Pweh, our lives would be easier if Preacher shut the hell up. Not only are the majority of christians addicted to pornography (so it’s clearly not working anyway), but we also have to spend most of our time combating the meme that we are actually helping the right!

  6. Bill October 21, 2008 at 9:08 AM #

    The problem isn’t always what the preacher says. It’s what people do with it. While I reject the supernatural hocus pocus, there were some valuable things I got from it.

    For example, charity and caring for the weak and unfortunate. The concept that we are all flawed, and we all need forgiveness (but from the people we actually wronged – not from cloud man or his appointed minions). And the fragility of life – there are no guarantees.

    One concept I do hold on to, but not in the exact way it is taught, is being “born again”. For me, it’s not a one time thing – it’s something I do every few years to refresh my outlook and my energy.

    There are a lot of hypocrites in church. There are bigots and homophobes and people who act as though their shit doesn’t stink. The problem isn’t necessarily the message as much as what’s done with the message.

    Then again, the same could be said of BOTH major political parties, and any other grouping in life.

  7. Rachael October 21, 2008 at 9:17 AM #

    Thank you for this. I made a post at a form a day or two ago called “In Defense of Radical Feminism.” (you can read it here if you want) I meant to debate, but I ended up getting so angry and upset (after the MRAs implying I was “either gullible of full of shit” and “a simple-minded sheep” and that I just want to be on the feminist “bandwagon” to “fit in”) that I left. And in the end, I probably just helped to encourage their beliefs that women are emotional and irrational and should just shut the hell up.

    Anyway, where I’m going with all this is that I briefly mentioned pornography, saying I’m not quite sure where I stood on it. But I did mention female objectification, and then one of the guys, without any encouragement from me, said that women in porn weren’t objectified, they chose to do it.

    I never said I was against pornography, or that pornography was inherently the objectification of women. But honestly, when I look at how adamant these guys are to protect their “rights” to look at porn, I realize that if I don’t stop sitting on the fence and come to a decision, I’m going to end up with someone like them (and they all have wives that love them very, very much, I’m sure).

    And right now, I’m thinking I’d rather be single for the rest of my life–even be a virgin for the rest of my life–than be with someone who’s not going to accuse me of wanting to take away their rights if I dare question the ethics of pornography. It’ll be hard amidst all the anti-woman bullshit I’m now seeing everywhere, but I’m going to try my damnedest to fight it!

  8. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 3:21 PM #

    What I’d like to say about this, is a lot more than I’ll end up saying. I’m sure there’ll be points I miss.

    First off, if you say your partner has no right to look at porn, wouldn’t that also mean you have no right to tell them what they can or cannot do?

    If rights fall under “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, if it makes someone happy, do they then have a right to it?

    I could say I don’t have a right to get an abortion, because it’s never explicitly defined as such in the Bill of Rights, but I do, and we say it falls under the right to privacy.

    I could also say if I want to rub one out to porn, that it also falls under the right to privacy, right?

    Then, you don’t actually mention it in this one, but what of “feminist” porn? Pornography, at it’s core, is a visual depiction of two people having sex. (At least in my mind. A suggestive picture of a scantily-clad or naked human, to me, isn’t “porn”, as such.)

    So, is there a line in your mind, where two people having sex for the purpose of arousing others can be depicted as egalitarian and healthy if a couple chooses to watch it? Or is it always wrong in your mind?

    You address only men, but what about me? Do you not acknowledge that there are a great many of us without a penis that enjoy pornographic material? Who might be turned on by watching sex acts?

    Personally, a lot of it sounds like you want us to control our male partners. Relationships aren’t about one party controlling the other, to me. It just sounds a lot like “You aren’t allowed to think about anyone else but me when you masturbate, and if you do, then you aren’t allowed to masturbate”.

    I wouldn’t want someone telling me I couldn’t masturbate, or telling me what I was or was not allowed to think about while doing it.

    Would you?

    Finally, I think openness towards sex actually cuts down on porn use by both parties in a relationship. If your partner wants to try something new, and you outright refuse them, they’re going to look up porn depicting what they are interested in trying.

    I’ve found past partners don’t look at nearly as much sexual material, when I started to be more open about what I would be willing to try with them.

    Sex isn’t a “me me me” thing, you know? It’s something that both people have to come into equally, and be prepared for the eventuality that they might be asked to do something that’s not necessarily their bag, and that they might later ask their partner the same sort of thing.

    I don’t equate porn use to cheating, though. Kissing someone else is straight up cheating. If my partner wanks to a picture of a naked woman online, he’s not having sex with her. He’s not kissing her.

    I also don’t consider it to be emotional abuse.

    Also, that’s a slippery slope to get on. I could say that if I had an abortion, it would be emotionally abusing the person who got me pregnant in the first place, and I shouldn’t “cause the damage”.

    And frankly, that’s not a situation I’d ever want to be in, because that’s ludicrous.

    All in all, please don’t assume that across the board, all of us are hurt by porn use by partners, and that all of us are “emotionally damaged” by it, etcetera.

    Sometimes I wonder if you have not ever had sex, based on the things you say and think about it.

    • truthvscompliance October 14, 2009 at 6:50 PM #

      I would never go along with sex acts my boyfriend wanted to do – that I didn’t feel comfortable doing. I’m not a prude – I just don’t believe in doing things that men want (at the expense of my own happiness/sanity) and I don’t believe in making men the center of my life. If a guy seeing me is pissed off that I won’t have anal sex with him – he can go take a hike – I’m not tying him up to a chair and forcing him to be with me.
      Same with the porn issue – if a guy I’m seeing refuses to give up porn because he can’t grasp his little mind around why I hate it so much – I’m already out the door.
      I’m not controlling anyone – they have a choice to stay or go. Like many people who have watched their families torn apart by drugs and won’t date anyone who uses drugs because of it – I won’t date anyone who uses porn because I have seen first hand what years of porn use can do to men and I watched it first hand almost destroy our family. If any guy I’m seeing can’t respect that because he feels entitled to use the degredation of women as jack fuel, than he can basically (and literally) go fuck himself.
      I’ve only been in relationships where a man’s porn use did more harm than it did good. At first – yeah, the sex was fine but over time and after the novelty of the “new girlfriend” wore off, they became disinterested in having sex with me or having any kind of sex life outside of the 2dimensional “boob” tube. I refuse to compete with a video.
      People don’t need porn to masterbate. The reason some women see porn as cheating is because they’ve experienced what I have and what my mom has – that is, guys chosing porn over having sex with their partners. If it isn’t cheating, there is still no justification for it.

      Sadly – I think a lot of women conform to what their boyfriends want because they are so deeply scared of *gasp* losing their man or their man cheating on them (or they get tired of being nagged about it, so cave).
      Personally – I have standards – which are simply that my partner respect me and my wishes. Certainly I will respect HIS wishes (and have with many guys), so long as it doesn’t harm me. Giving up porn isn’t harmful for the viewer – it’s a benefit.

  9. Ceeja October 21, 2008 at 4:30 PM #

    Shorter Sarah:
    “I like it so back off. If you don’t do everything men demand they’ll look at porn and it’ll be your fault, because being pressurised into sexual acts you don’t want to do is A-ok. Anyway, only a virgin would be such a prude to think that women have rights regarding their sexuality and bodily autonomy.
    PS, I’m a woman, according to me, therefore I think you can’t disagree with me.”

    Yawn.

  10. buggle October 21, 2008 at 4:49 PM #

    Oh lord, you are a stronger woman than I, 9-2, for posting this stuff! :) Good stuff here, I think this stuff is so important to keep putting out there.

    I gave my male partner an ultimatum last year about his porn use. It was painful for both of us to confront, but I’m so happy I did. Our relationship is so much better, and I feel like a huge weight was lifted off of me. I HATED him using porn, but felt like I didn’t have the right to ask him to stop. Also, I really wanted him to stop because HE wanted to. Hee hee, how naive! I asked him to read some literature and to talk to me about porn, and boy did he learn a lot! I definitely ruined porn for him. Yay ;) Of course it is still a difficult thing, something we have to deal with in our relationship.

    Sarah, are you really blaming women for their man’s porn use? That’s sick dude. So, if women would just open up and do more sexual stuff with their man, that will make their man less likely to use porn? What man convinced you of that crock of shit? I’ll let 9-2 deal with the rest of your comment, sheesh- talk about not getting it!

  11. buggle October 21, 2008 at 4:50 PM #

    Lol at Ceeja- exactly!!!

  12. Evo October 21, 2008 at 4:57 PM #

    ND – brilliance again!

    “Dudes in general feel entitled to unfettered access to women’s bodies, and to unfettered access to footage of any pervy thing they can dream up being done to women’s bodies. They’ve gotten so used to privileged access to women’s bodies that they’ve come to see it as their right as men. That, my dear readers, is complete fucking bullshit.” This attitude really makes me take pause. It is so goddamned prevalent – and accepted. Even by the women with these men. I truly will never understand how one can truly believe they have a right to hurt other people. Ever.

    Ceeja – word. That’s pretty much what I read too.

  13. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 5:10 PM #

    How do you figure?

    How insulting. You completely missed the point.

    If your partner says “Hey, I’d like to try this”, that’s not a “demand”.

    Also, frankly, relationships and sex are give-and-take. They’re compromise.

    One day, you might want to do something new, or something your partner might not be fully into. Would you call it a “demand” on your part, if you came to your partner with something new to try in bed?

    Being more open to try new things isn’t “being pressured”.

    If neither party feels comfortable ever suggesting anything new, what the hell kind of sex life is that?

    Sex isn’t just about getting yourself off. It’s also making your partner enjoy it as much as you do. Maybe that point slipped your mind.

    No, the reason I brought up if she’s had sex or not, is she seems to regard it as a very black-and-white, rigid, strict rules, no experimentation, my-way-or-the-highway experience. Which it very much isn’t.

    In the previous post, she talks about how sex with some men is “boring”. So, it’s okay to point out that sex with them is boring, but not that *I* might be boring?

    If I never tried anything new in bed, not only would I be boring, but I’d get bored.

    Sex would have gotten old a great many years ago.

    But thanks for putting oodles of words into my mouth. It’s ever-so-helpful.

  14. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 5:24 PM #

    buggle said: “Sarah, are you really blaming women for their man’s porn use? That’s sick dude. So, if women would just open up and do more sexual stuff with their man, that will make their man less likely to use porn? What man convinced you of that crock of shit? I’ll let 9-2 deal with the rest of your comment, sheesh- talk about not getting it!”

    No, you read it wrong. I’m not blaming women for men using porn. I’m just saying that openness to new things will cut down on it.

    One of the largest reasons I see them using it is because it involves activities they’re afraid to ask for.

    Matter of fact, *I* convinced me of it. I used to be really funny about sex, and had very rigid definitions of what could or could not be allowed in the bedroom. That changed over the years.

    Why is it sick to say that being more open to pleasing your partner will cut down on them looking for pleasure elsewhere?

    Like I said earlier, sex isn’t about self-pleasure. That’s what masturbation is for. Sex is about *mutual* pleasure.

  15. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 5:31 PM #

    Sarah – Do you truly think I’ve never thought of every single issue you raised? I had pretty much the same attitude you do… when I was 18. Porn severely limits both men and women’s potential when it comes to sex. It presents human sexuality in limited, boring terms. Sure, they may put the dicks in different places and do it in different locales, but it’s still the same dynamic in almost all porn: woman as object, man as subject.

    I realize that relationships are give-and-take. One of the most important parts of that give-and-take relationship is trust, and trust is founded upon the belief that our partners care about our feelings and don’t want to hurt us. If porn hurts us, and our partners use it anyway, our partners are being abusive because they are violating our trust out of selfishness. And as to whether telling someone they ought not to be using porn is an attempt at cotnrol, sure it is. So is asking someone not to cheat on you or lie to you. But people who care about other people ought to not want to do things that hurt them, without having to be asked not to.

    You or your partner using porn means that you care more about having access to convenient jerk-off fodder than you do about the fact that you are exploiting human beings. If you’re OK with that, then him choosing to use porn isn’t abusive (to you). I’m not OK with that, and I have every right to expect someone who claims to care about me as a woman and as an individual to not do things that shout otherwise.

    As to my sexual experience and my supposed black-and-white view of things, you’re kidding yourself. I concieve of human sexuality in broad and complex terms, not the simplistic nonsensical dynamic porn culture has inculcated in the general public. Trying new things is all well and good, and is a part of healthy sexuality, provided that “new things” include things that are pleasurable for both partners and take both partners’ sexuality into account. Sexual adventurousness is not the same thing as simply allowing oneself to be penetrated in a new orifice out of fear that one’s partner will look elsewhere if one doesn’t.

  16. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 5:33 PM #

    And I’m fully aware that sex isn’t about self-pleasure. Too bad so many men aren’t. Does anyone but me think that might have something to do with porn?

  17. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 6:06 PM #

    Well, thank you for at least responding to me like a human, instead of what other people here did.

    I appreciate that.

    You said: ” It presents human sexuality in limited, boring terms. ”

    I think rigid definitions of “sex is missionary position, nothing new, crazy, or different” as pretty limited and boring.

    See, like I said before, the argument that “You shouldn’t, because it’ll hurt your partner” doesn’t work as well. If my having an abortion would hurt my partner, does that mean I shouldn’t do it? Fuck no.

    Also, not all women in porn are exploited. Yes, I’m aware that not all pornstars are the “superstar” rich folk, such as Jenna Jameson, etcetera.

    But one can be careful and find pornography that uses established “actors”, and legal means to provide compensation, etcetera.

    That was something I was hoping you’d answer. Is there any kind of filmed sexual activity that you find okay?

    Also, if “new things” only counted stuff that was pleasurable for both people, nobody would ever perform oral sex, you know?

    Giving a blowjob doesn’t exactly cause me an orgasm, but I like that it *gives* pleasure.

    Knowing I’m making him thrash around and lose his mind with an orgasm is a nice thing. Maybe to you that’s improper, or unfeminist. Not to me.

    That’s kinda my point. Sex isn’t just about activities that are guaranteed to cause both partners pleasure simultaneously.

    And it’s not “out of fear”.

    It originally came from me saying “What are you looking at? Oh. I see. How come? Is that something you’re interested in doing? Do you want to?”

    Which eventually cause him to have no interest in looking at it and jerking off anymore.

    Sometimes people are too ashamed to ask for something they want, so instead hide it and look at porn.

  18. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 6:40 PM #

    You aren’t seeing the bigger picture. Sex doesn’t happen in a political vacuum. You’re assuming that because I’m aware that there are different implications to different sexual acts that I’m not aware of how a sexual relationship ought to work. Frankly, you’re insulting.

    The abortion argument is nonsense. I can have an abortion whether I want to or not because it’s my body and I get to choose what to do with it. I expect a dude I’m involved with to respect women and their bodily and emotional sovereignty and not use their bodies like objects, which is what using porn is. The end.

    Let me say this one last time: if a dude is looking at porn, I’m not going to ask him if he wants to do what he’s looking at, because that would mean I’d be allowing myself to be dehumanized in order to pander to desires that are created by misogynistic propaganda. If a dude is out looking at porn becuase there’s something going on there that I don’t want to do, then he isn’t the dude for me. Get it? You might be cool with that shit, but I don’t hate myself. I don’t want to let someone use my body like a tool to get himself off. I want to be treated like a human being all the time, just like men expect to be.

    Whether erotic images that aren’t dehumanizing can exist is a theoretical issue. As it stands, we live in a patriarchy. When women are seen to possess the same humanity men do, we can have that conversation. For now, it’s moot.

  19. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 6:50 PM #

    Ah, see, one could say someone can masturbate when and how they want, because it’s their body.

    So, you admit you’re fully willing to ignore your partner’s desires and wants/needs?

    That’s… considerate and egalitarian of you.

    Frankly, I don’t hate myself. Being willing to take one in the face, or do a 69 doesn’t mean you hate yourself, or are a tool to get someone off.

    When you have sex, the idea is to get the other person off, (and yourself.) To do something they enjoy. For them to do things you enjoy.

    It doesn’t make you a “tool to get someone off”, for you to do something your partner is interested in. Have you ever asked for oral sex? Did you think you were dehumanizing your partner, and turning him into a tool to get you off?

    You dodged my question.

    If you depict two people simply having sex, to you that’s dehumanizing?

    Then, I seriously hope you take your own advice, and never actually have sex, if all sexual acts dehumanize you.

  20. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 6:52 PM #

    I should add, though, and I don’t mean this in a snarky way:

    You say you believe that sex can involve new things, but everything I see you say says “Rigid, predefined, unchanging”.

    Do you even *enjoy* sex? Or do you only care about yourself when you have it? You seem completely unable to acknowledge the humanity and wants/needs/desires of the other person who is between the sheets with you.

  21. Babs October 21, 2008 at 6:53 PM #

    Yes. I do.

  22. Rachael October 21, 2008 at 7:07 PM #

    Oops–I meant to say “than be with someone who IS going to accuse me of trying to take away his rights.” Oh well.

  23. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 7:18 PM #

    “Take one in the face”? Unbelievable.

    My definition of sex isn’t in any of these posts because it’s none of your fucking business, but I’m willing to bet that it’s a lot less rigid than yours is. Where did I say anything about ignoring my partner? I’m willing to consider the idea that there’s more to sex that the stupid bullshit the porn industry wants to reduce it to. I don’t see any specific act as inherently degrading. What I see as degrading is being turned into a tool by a dude who doesn’t see me as a full human being, which is why I don’t have sex with men who use porn.

    As to acknowledging humanity, that’s what I’m all about. The problem is that porn operates against that being a possibility.

    Masturbation doesn’t involve other people. Duh. You aren’t exploiting anyone when you masturbate unless you use porn in the process.

    I enjoy sex plenty. In fact, I think I enjoy it more as a feminist than I ever did before I figured a lot of this stuff out. I’ve got no problem whatsoever with reciprocity in sexual relationships. What I have a problem with is men expecting women to believe that they are loved by someone who disregards their feelings. What I have a problem with is men who think they’re entitled to use women by proxy.

    • truthvscompliance October 14, 2009 at 7:21 PM #

      I have to second this. I think that when I felt pressured to live down to the porn actresses the guys I was with in the past gauked at, I was much more rigid. Sometimes I couldn’t even get off.
      Since I’ve recognized that I don’t have to live down to those porn actresses – sex has gotten better and I also know now that I can have multiples, right after the other. I would have never found this out with the morons I dated who were obsessed with porn because they were too busy worrying about what THEY liked or how THEY wanted it (and most of the time, they were just puking up what they watched earlier that day).
      It’s really funny that us anti-porn people are always being called rigid etc but what most of those saying it don’t realize is that most of us have experienced the path they are defending now. I watched porn with guys in the past – I hated it then, I still hate it. Them telling me that I was being a jealous control freak never changed my TRUE opinion on it. Maybe I acted like I thought it was cool or whatever but I never truely felt that way. And that isn’t being true to myself, for sure.

  24. Jones October 21, 2008 at 7:25 PM #

    Learn to take risks. And please don’t tell me that being a feminist is risky. If being intellectual and clever is your goal (and it seems to be), take some fucking risks in life. You must be exhausted with political correctness. I’m going to sleep now.

  25. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 7:39 PM #

    Unbelievable? Sorry. I tend to be more vulgar when talking about specific sexual things pertaining to myself.

    It might not make sense, but I get embarrassed talking about my sex life, because it’s private, so if I outline something specific, the more vulgar terms I put it in, the less it embarrasses me.

    I’m sure that sounds ridiculous.

    I mean a facial, just in case you thought I meant being hit in the face. I just get the impression you thought that.

    I don’t think my definition of sex is rigid. I also don’t see it solely as some “emotional experience”, either. I don’t see how you’d figure my definition was rigid.

    I mean, something I do in bed, you’re calling “unbelievable”. Which of us is more rigid?

  26. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 8:41 PM #

    I knew exactly what “take one in the face” meant. I have a question for you: why would someone want to ejaculate in your face? And if you’re going to say “because it turns him on,” then I wonder whether he’d let you pee on his face if it turned you on? It’s not unbelievable because I’m rigid, it’s unbelievable because it’s coarse, piggish, degrading, and a sign that we’ve lost the plot. Shouldn’t sex at least involve some measure of affection (emotional experience or not)? How do affection and “taking one in the face” coexist?

    Jones – If your idea of “taking risks” includes letting someone treat me like a piece of garbage, no thanks.

  27. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 9:17 PM #

    Alright, fair enough. I just expected from your reaction you didn’t understand what I had meant.

    Well, why would you want someone to go down on you? Because it turns you on?

    It obviously wouldn’t be giving him an orgasm, now would it?

    Isn’t most of sex, (when it comes to pleasing your partner), done because it turns them on? When you do something specifically FOR your partner, it is because they enjoy it, right?

    If you have the pre-requisite of never doing anything for your partner, then that is rigid.

    Why is it “piggish”? Why is it degrading? Why is putting it there any more degrading than putting it IN me?

    Why is it not affection?

    I don’t find it degrading for him to let go in me, so I don’t find it degrading to be ON me.

    I don’t consider semen to be a threatening substance, nor the act of orgasm/ejaculation to be anything to fear. So why should I have a problem with where it goes?

    It’s something that shows his pleasure, it’s an intimate, sexy thing to me.

    You don’t have to do it, you don’t even have to like or approve of my receiving it.

    Just don’t automatically insult me for enjoying it, or insult my partner for doing that with me.

    I’ll thank you to respect my sexual choices and interests, you know?

    • truthvscompliance October 14, 2009 at 7:27 PM #

      Having a guy ejaculate on your face in NO way stimulates Him or You. It’s pointless (other than being some act to sexually degrade another human being) – and before you call me rigid – in my teens, I tried it (I still don’t understand the novelty for either party). You mean to tell me that jacking off into a rag will somehow make his orgasm go away? If that’s true – I would run, RUN RUN away from that pig.

  28. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 9:27 PM #

    Also, one thing that was nagging at me, that I didn’t really put into words until this second:

    It’s kinda telling that you equate semen and urine as similar in your mind.

    One is a human waste product, the other is the result of sexual stimulation. I don’t consider his semen to be a vile waste product that needs to be disposed of, nor do I think it “gross” or “icky”.

    I could ask why you think semen and urine are one and the same, though.

    I’m sorry to flood up your comments with doubles, but I don’t always get all my thoughts out in the first comment, and remember things I wanted to say after the fact.

    If you’re able to join them together or anything, that’d be great. Otherwise I may end up doing another double later, if we keep talking.

  29. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 9:42 PM #

    First off, you need to stop misrepresenting what I’ve said. I don’t have a pre-requisite of never doing anything for my partner, I have self respect and won’t have sex with someone who doesn’t treat me like a human being. You might think it’s possible for someone to ejaculate on your face and respect you as a human being. I disagree.

    I’m not going to discuss my sexual activities in a public forum because it’s undignified, and I don’t give two fucks what you do in bed because it’s your business. I’m not disrespecting your interests and choices. You’re the one coming here and telling me I must suck in bed because I don’t think porn is cool. You know, there have been studies recently that say men who have feminist partners report higher levels of sexual satisfaction. And feminist women tend to report the same. You may think that every dude in the world is all about ejaculating on faces, doing anal, and calling his partner derogatory names in bed, but they aren’t. I know plenty who are grossed out by that kind of thing and realize that it has no place in real sexual interactions between people who respect (or like, love, whatever) each other. I tend to think people who are sexually mature realize that what goes on in porn is kind of lame and limiting.

    Anyway, this post isn’t about whether you like to “take one in the face.” What this post is about is whether men have a right to use porn in a relationship when it hurts their partners. If it doesn’t hurt you, then right on. Have at it. It does hurt a lot of people, and you don’t get to come here and try to invalidate their completely reasonable feelings on the subject. You might not have a problem with someone using porn, or with them acting out what they’ve seen on you, but that doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t something men have a right to do. It’s class exploitation, it’s misogynistic, it has a negative effect on women beyond those who participate in its production, and it’s abusive in the context of a relationship in which one partner has made it clear that it’s hurtful.

    We have the right to do whatever we want to with our bodies, but we don’t have the right to use other human beings. We all have a right to ask our partners to respect our feelings. We don’t have a right to do things that are hurtful and force other people to deal with the consequences. That’s all there is to it.

  30. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 9:46 PM #

    I don’t equate them, it’s called an approximation analogy. But who gives a shit? You aren’t going to tell me I’m anti-sex because I think porn is degrading and won’t let someone ejaculate on my face. That isn’t sex, it’s a power exchange.

  31. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 10:01 PM #

    You DO have a pre-requisite, though. You’ve already outlined something you refuse to do. You might as well call blowjobs disrespectful, too.

    I don’t see why you can’t believe someone can respect you and ejaculate on your face.

    What’s disrespectful about it? The only reason you’d think so, is if you find something inherently “bad” or “unclean” about semen.

    There’s nothing wrong with the stuff. I respect your viewpoint, you don’t like it, and you don’t have to. I just would like to know how you came to the conclusion that it is somehow disrespectful.

    I keep coming back to the thought that you MUST somehow think semen is dirty or bad or foul in order to think that putting it on you is a sign of disrespect, because it’s making YOU foul by extension.

    I’m sorry if I’m asking questions that are too personal, it just boggles my mind.

    You just seem to have this attitude that penises, and things related to them are inherently dirty.

    You ARE disrespecting my interests and choices, by referring to it as something disgusting “piggish”, and various other terms.

    If you really liked a sexual activity, would you like it if I told you it was disgusting, piggish, disrespectful, and abusive? And insulted you and your partner for engaging in it?

    No, I never said you must suck in bed because you don’t think porn is cool. I simply said you just sound very, very rigid, not at all open to experimentation. That’s just how you seem. You only occasionally rebut that with what amounts to “nuh-uh, am not”.

    Yeah, and there used to be studies that showed that women who had a hot dinner ready and “didn’t bother him” when he came home from work were more satisfied.

    It’s easy to influence studies anyway you want.

    Besides which, your point is somehow that one can’t be a feminist AND do certain bedroom activities. Which is fucking bullshit.

    I’m a feminist. Does that suddenly bar me from sucking dick, or being on bottom in sex? Fuck you if you think it does, honestly.

    See, again, you throw insults based on what two people do in a bedroom. That IS disrespect. There’s a difference between saying “not my bag, but have at it, if you two are happy”, and saying “What you are doing is wrong, and bad, and has no place in a “real” sexual relationship”.

    It’s not up to you to define anyone’s relationships but your own.

    What’s “lame” and “limiting” is someone like you attempting to define what is “proper” sex and what is “improper” sex.

    I’d still like to know how being open to new things in the bedroom is “lame and limiting”. So what, if they were learned from porn? That doesn’t mean someone is “sexually immature”.

    Where else would someone learn a sexual activity they’d never heard of?

    Which, to me, I find insulting and very anti-feminist. Telling women what to do is misogyny, nothing more. Trying to make women feel guilty or bad about things they do? Misogyny. And I’m not buying it.

    You seem an insightful, intelligent person from your posts, but I can’t tell if it’s your self-admitted “persona” coming through when you’re insulting, or if it’s just you.

    Maybe you figure since I do acts you think are bad, that I’m not human enough for you to treat decently, or that you don’t have to respect my choices, or that because I’m more open in the bedroom than you, that I’m somehow “bad” or a “tool”, but all it feels like is you’re enforcing the virgin/whore dichotomy, and just justifying it from a different angle.

    If that’s not your intent, I apologize, but it’s how it comes off.

    And I’m aware what the post is about. I’m sorry that I digress. I can’t help it, it’s hard for me to discuss one single topic and never deviate. I find comment sections that are held to that, end up becoming endless “pat author on back”-fests, where nothing ever really gets discussed.

    My whole point was sometimes, men (and women, too) aren’t using porn because they feel they have a “right” to, that there are underlying reasons why they might be using it.

    If all my partner wanted to do was climb on me and do boring, vanilla, missionary penetrative sex, with a roll over and smoke a camel every night, I’d spent a lot more time watching videos, too.

  32. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 10:03 PM #

    How is ejaculating on someone’s face a power exchange?

    Also, there’s nothing approximate about urine and semen.

    Facial ejaculation =/= porn. That’s like saying because I saw a man ejaculate inside a woman’s vagina in a porn video, that ejaculating in a vagina = porn = degrading.

    Do you also think oral sex = porn = degrading?

    Ugh. I really wish we could somehow take this to emails, or somewhere not-this-thread, so I could actually have a discussion with you, without having to choke up your thread here.

  33. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 10:15 PM #

    I’m not going to discuss this. This thread is not about my personal sexual preferences or attitudes. If you want to know the theoretical objections I have to some of this stuff, read the rest of the series. I’m frankly tired of people trying to sidestep complicated arguments with accusations of being anti-sex or anti-penis or whatever. You’re missing the point.

  34. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 10:28 PM #

    In order to fully grasp your perspective, it would kinda help to know where you actually stand.

    Being vague and saying “This is degrading, but I won’t go into WHY” doesn’t help.

    It makes you hard to figure out, it makes your points murky, and it makes the overall point lost, because the author of said points refuses to back up why she thinks in such a way.

    The reason I keep coming back that you’re anti-sex or, at least, that you find penises to be dirty/unclean, is because you associate penises and what comes out of them as degrading/bad. If you’re bad/wrong if what comes out of it gets on you, how could one NOT think you find the penis bad/wrong?

    Do you at least see what I mean, that it’s hard to understand what you actually think, if you refuse to elaborate on why you think the things you do?

    Blogging is personal, unless you use it solely as a news reporting center, something of yourself should be up in it, when you write posts that contain your personal opinions.

    All you leave with is unanswered questions, and I can’t get a single thing out of your points, because you’re unwilling to back any of them up.

  35. Jenn October 21, 2008 at 10:40 PM #

    As I was reading the comments, I came to the same conclusion I’ve read a great many times in Dworkin and other places: for many men, sex is about power, objectification, and force.

    Nothing turns me on more than some dude reinforcing his brainwashed fantasies of his gender’s superiority—physically, sexually, and by definition‐with his cock. Porn isn’t about mutual exchange, it isn’t about mutual pleasure, its about me looking at shit that turns me on—shit that is exploitive and would not exist without a system of sexism and classism and heinous inequality—because I prefer people to act in such a way that pleases me, and act like it pleases them to please me, because I don’t give a shit about their humanity. That’s about as far from “mutually pleasurable” as you can get.

    As someone that was addicted to porn for a couple of years, it does alter your perception of yourself and others, and it does diminish your response to normal non-exploitive activities. Normal erotic things won’t have the kick of nude pics, then anal, then rape simulations, then bestiality, then child porn, then snuff porn. Frequent any peer-exchange porn forum, like I did, and you’ll know in about five seconds that what really turns dudes on is not the sight of two people having fun, but the sight of a woman in pain, abused, degraded, and other things that would put people in jail being exchanged and copied by the terrabytes over the internet.

    Porn is not looking at Playboy’s center fold demurely covering half her breast, porn is watching a woman get fucked in the ass, in visible pain, and two months later not having it turn you on.

    When I think back to all the sexual relationships I had with men, I could definitely tell which ones used porn. They all sucked in bed. I think sex toys had more respect for my humanity.

    And it is a gendered problem, it is men that suck in bed, because I have never had the same realization of “oh my god, they don’t give a shit if I like it and wouldn’t stop if I asked them to” with any of the women I have ever slept with.

    Porn affected me, porn affects everyone, porn ruins lives. It is not mutual, it is disgusting and at best, emotional abuse and class exploitation, and at worst, profiting financially and sexually from someone else’s rape.

    Really, and no one coming in blazing to Nine Deuce’s extremely intuitive and logical porn series with asinine pornsick excuses has a shred of originality or rationality to stand on, especially when their stupid bigoted comments reek of victim-blaming, sexism, rape apology, and a complete and utter dismissal of the hundreds of thousands of lives that the porn industry has ruined.

    Sarah, you’re not original. And you’re extremely offensive. Go somewhere else and pretend your porn exists in a happy vacuum of sexual utopia. We already have to clean up the mess you and your pornsick friends have created, the least you could do is stop spitting on us while we get out the mop.

  36. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 10:40 PM #

    Read my other posts on the subject if you want to know how I back my points up. I don’t have time to write the same thing over and over again because people can’t use the search box.

    I don’t associate what comes out of penises with filth. I do associate an act that is titillating because it involves an element of power a problem. Sex shouldn’t be mixed with power. Again, see my entire porn series, the post titled “SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX,” etc.

  37. Sarah October 21, 2008 at 11:06 PM #

    What does it have to do with power, though?

    That’s really my core question on that line. WHY do you find it degrading? Is it so problematic to answer that? Isn’t putting it IN me just as bad, then? Hell, you could even argue that it was worse, because it could get me pregnant which is way more horrifying to me than making me need to wash up.

    I don’t suppose it ever occurred to you that it’s titillating because it’s someone’s distilled sexuality on a very personal part of their lover, though.

    That’s why I called you rigid. Because you only see one definition of something, and insult someone who sees it a different way.

    I don’t mind agreeing to disagree on the liking of something, I just ask that you give me the same respect you ask for, and respect that I see the act in a different way, and that I have a very egalitarian relationship with the man I’m sleeping with. Even though you think otherwise.

  38. Nine Deuce October 21, 2008 at 11:31 PM #

    Read my series. The answer is there. Or read Jen’s comment. I’m done with you.

  39. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 12:13 AM #

    I can’t really do much with Jenn’s comment, as it is a terrible slippery slope argument.

    “Normal erotic things won’t have the kick of nude pics, then anal, then rape simulations, then bestiality, then child porn, then snuff porn.”

    That’s basically implying that porn is a slippery slope, and one day, someone that looks at nude photos will eventually look at snuff films.

    Which is such bullshit.

    Jenn, YOU are offensive. You are anti-feminist, misogynist, and insulting.

    You’re telling me how to live my life, how to have sex, what is or is not “acceptable” sex, and, well, fuck you.

    Seriously. What, to you, is feminist, about telling women what to do? There’s already plenty of republicans telling me that my bedroom habits shouldn’t exist because I’m not married, that I shouldn’t be on the BC I’m on, that the condoms I keep on my nightstand are a sin, and that the only sex I should be having is post-marriage, and only for reproduction.

    I don’t need supposed FEMINISTS telling me that I’m bad, or wrong, or trying to make me feel guilty for having fucking sex.

    Thanks for the slut-shaming, nonetheless.

    To Nine, I apologize for having to say that to her, but I don’t like being insulted by people who claim to be feminists, when all they want to do is slut shame.

    When you say read your series, is the specific answer I seek in there? I mean, do I have to read 7 other blog entries to find one sentence worth of answer? I’d greatly appreciate if you could just answer my question.

    I don’t even care if you email it to me. Or at least point me to the specific entry that answers what I ask.

  40. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 12:22 AM #

    I already pointed you to the answer. You might want to read my post titled “Sluts!” and “SEX SEX SEX SEX.”

    I’ll let Jenn respond to the rest of that. But let me say, no more “fuck yous” from anyone today. I’m getting tired of it.

  41. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 12:36 AM #

    Oh, I thought you were just saying “read the series, which has such titles as…”.

    Got it.

    I already apologized for it. I just react badly to slut shaming.

  42. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 12:38 AM #

    She’s not slut-shaming. Oh, and you should read the series, Porn Part 1-6.

  43. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 12:55 AM #

    Basically telling me I’m bad/dirty/wrong/improper for doing things she doesn’t approve of in bed, is, in fact, slut shaming.

    It’s attempting to make me feel bad or guilty based on my sex life. Which I refuse to do.

  44. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 12:56 AM #

    Way to avoid confronting the points she made.

  45. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 1:13 AM #

    She didn’t make any points. She made a terrible slippery slope argument, then proceeded to slut shame and insult me.

    Why should I give her any response at all?

  46. ms. jared October 22, 2008 at 2:08 AM #

    “take one in the face”? whoa.

    i’ve had numerous conversations about sex with my feminist friends and i’ve NEVER heard ANY of them say that “taking one in the face” was anything other than blatant disrespect and degradation. and in my twenty years of sexual activity, i’ve NEVER had a sexual partner who would even ASK me to “take it in the face” because MEN KNOW that it’s totally meant to be disrespectful and degrading.

    besides ND’s great series, there is also an extensive examination of porn from a pro-feminist male perspective you might find interesting:

    http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/articles_gender.html

    the truth of the matter is that MEN KNOW that ejaculating in a woman’s face is degrading and THAT’S WHY so many of them get off on it and why “facials” are particularly popular in pornography.

  47. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 3:13 AM #

    Degrading based on what? Oh? Solely on rad opinion. Helpful.

    Why is it? Is it because you think semen is bad/dirty/vile? That’s the only reason you could possibly associate it with disrespect.

    Though, if you have such opinions about semen, then you need to re-examine your own issues with sex.

    Because if you want to call that degrading, let’s call blowjobs and cunnilingus degrading, too.

    Maybe all your friends give you the same answer, because you keep company with people who already agree with you?

    Like I said, closed-minded people are boring in the bedroom. Vanilla missionary is stale.

  48. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 3:15 AM #

    Oh, and ms. jared, I do feel kind of bad for your sexual partners.

    That you’ve managed to frighten them into such submission that they’re afraid to ask for anything new or interesting in the bedroom that they might want.

    Sex entirely on one person’s terms. How awful.

  49. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 3:21 AM #

    Well, Sarah, you’ve inspired me. I asked every dude I know today and they all agreed with ms. jared and myself on the “taking one in the face” thing. Sorry, you’re kidding yourself. And it isn’t because they think semen is vile.

    For the last time, not allowing oneself to be treated like a piece of trash does not equal selfishness. Read the rest of the porn series at least, for fuck’s sake. In any case, stop repeating yourself. Do you work for the Department of Redundancy Department?

  50. pisaquaririse October 22, 2008 at 3:38 AM #

    “Do you work for the Department of Redundancy Department?”

    Textbook Nine Deuce.

  51. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 3:49 AM #

    Or, again, maybe you’re only asking people who already agree with you.

    Also, again, who do you think you are, that you think you’re allowed to define my sex life for me? Or to tell me I’m “kidding myself”?

    There’s not a single feminist aspect in doing that. None. In fact, you sound like a typical misogynist, telling the “stupid girl” that she just “doesn’t know what she wants”.

    Again, how does semen denote “trash”? When you have sex with a man, do you demand he pull out and ejaculate into the garbage can? Are you saying that what comes from your male partner IS garbage?

    If so, I can see why you have such very twisted views on sex.

    When you do have sex, is it entirely on your terms, and your terms alone? That what he might want is irrelevant, and the only things allowed are the terms you set forth prior?

    I’m sorry, I’m just more open than you to doing pleasurable things with my partner. I don’t view sex as a rigid, conservative, missionary, boring, dull act, that has set rules and time limits.

  52. pisaquaririse October 22, 2008 at 3:52 AM #

    Oh and a note about degradation: it starts and ends with the degrade-r. An act of degradation is not dependent upon the receiver’s (degradee) joy of the act. Those are really separate circumstances.

  53. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 3:56 AM #

    The dudes I asked generally think radical feminism is insane, if you must know.

    Once again you’re misrepresenting my points. I never said anything of the sort about semen or about sexual positions. And you think you know, sans any kind of information, what my sex life entails and what my views are on sex. You’re presumptuous and pushy and I’m frankly tired of you trying to turn a discussion of ethics into a discussion of my personal sex life. Go fuck yourself, I’m not discussing this anymore.

  54. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 3:59 AM #

    It’s too bad that you can’t read. I’ve said on several occasions that sex ought to be about mutual pleasure, give-and-take, communication, etc.

    Degrading based on what? Oh? Solely on rad opinion. Helpful.

    Why is it? Is it because you think semen is bad/dirty/vile? That’s the only reason you could possibly associate it with disrespect.

    This coming from the one who calls it “taking one in the face.”

  55. Sarah October 22, 2008 at 4:05 AM #

    You said: “I’ve said on several occasions that sex ought to be about mutual pleasure, give-and-take, communication, etc.”

    Perhaps you have, but you have said, here, that sex is more about YOUR pleasure, regardless of what your partner might want, because of preconceived notions about sexual activities in your mind.

    • smurfqueen October 19, 2013 at 3:56 AM #

      Since you seem to continually miss the point, let me give you a different example than a face-shot. Imagine you’re dating a guy, and things are going well, and then one day he tells you he wants to try rape, because rape porn or the idea of rape turns him on. Do you let him? Do you see that as ok, or do you see it for what it is? And before you try to tell me that you enjoy rape (I have had women tell me this who have NEVER actually been raped), rape is not something you can “enjoy”. The moment you WANT what is happening to you, it ceases to be rape. It can still be degrading, it can still hurt, but if you WANT it, it’s not real rape. Rape is about control, about power; not about pleasure. A man may “pretend” to rape you by tying you up or holding you down if you tell him you want to do that, but real rape is not desired the the one raped. I’ve already seen someone on here say that if men didn’t have porn and they’re not getting as much sex as they want they’d HAVE to resort to rape. This is the most disturbing defense of porn I have ever, ever seen; worse even than the “it’s either porn or cheating” defense. Look, I enjoy giving and receiving oral, but it all comes down to consent and what you’re comfortable with, and I have had a guy ejaculate onto my face and I did feel like he was doing it to “show who’s boss” or, in more primitive terms, mark his “territory”. I was not comfortable with it, and I do see it as degrading or at least rude because it’s roughly on par with spitting in my face. If you’re ok with it, I gues it’s a moot point, but I would caution you to be careful; you do not have to consent to every new thing that a man might want to try if you don’t want to or if it sounds distasteful or unpleasant or hurtful to you. You might convince yourself that you have to try because he says it will please him or offers things you enjoy as a reward, but realize that he will lose respect for you if you bend too much, if you don’t stand up for yourself once in a while and say “no.”

  56. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 4:07 AM #

    Uh, where did I say that?

  57. isme October 22, 2008 at 4:35 AM #

    At the risk of being shouted at, if we are going by Jenn’s definition of porn as:

    “Porn is not looking at Playboy’s center fold demurely covering half her breast, porn is watching a woman get fucked in the ass, in visible pain, and two months later not having it turn you on.”

    Then, yes, porn is inherently wrong and indefensible. But…Playboy isn’t porn? What is it then, and is it also wrong?

    Oh, as for degrading sex acts…surely they are degrading only if the intent is to degrade? I don’t see exactly how a couple could really see (for example) facials as not degrading, given that it is used in porn to degrade, but assuming they did, I don’t see the problem.

  58. pisaquaririse October 22, 2008 at 4:48 AM #

    Sarah (if I may): Nine’s point is not a critique about women’s sexual preferences–it is of men’s behavior. That you like something in the bedroom is completely irrelevant to her post.

    Nine, coming from a point of radical feminism (correct me if I’m wrong here 92), does not just see a body part moving fluids onto another body part. Or a sexually satisfied woman. Radical feminism is concerned with what makes a guy *want* to ejaculate onto a woman’s face: phallocentric society, rearing boys to value violence, to be attracted to femininity and all it’s submissive manifestations yet devalue it as well, porn presenting the penis as a form of punishment, rape and sexual assault statistics.

    Those elements combined give radical feminists serious pause as to the motivations and desires of men to ejaculate onto a woman’s face. They too closely emulate what underlies men’s dominant, destructive behavior. Or, patriarchy.

    Maybe it is absolutely true that you in all your sexual quests have found the exceptional men. Radical feminism, however, does not feel women can afford to talk exceptions.

  59. Jenn October 22, 2008 at 5:00 AM #

    Isme – my comment on “porn is not… porn is…” was more along the lines of commenting on the new habits of porn viewers. Twenty or thirty years ago, a man was happy to get his rocks off with Playboy and bra catalogs. Today, the only people that stick to printed softcore and nudie pics are old men, not the majority of porn consumers.

    As someone that was very deep into the porn viewer culture for a while (not a happy time in my life), trust me on this one: when a dude below the age of fifty is a frequent porn viewer, he’s probably looking at more than Playboy and static pictures that might be considered “erotic art”.

    As far as facials go, the problem with intent is that it is extremely murky. Western individuality is extremely into this self-awareness and choice schtick, were we all pretend that we know why we act in a certain fashion, and how we are feeling. Ask anyone how they are doing today, and they’ll answer with a definite answer. People would think you were crazy if you answered, “I don’t know”.

    Let’s be honest here: at least half of the time most of us are on auto-pilot. I’m one of the most introspective head-in-the-clouds people you’ll ever meet, and I can freely say that I don’t know why I feel a certain why or why I think a certain way far more than half of the time. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

    The thing is, the intent of a facial (dear God, I hate these fluffy terms for stupid sex “rituals”) is completely unclear. Presumably, it’s done to turn one or both of the partners on. That’s nice, but there’s a shitload of people out there that think that watching the most vile human sexual degradation is really fucking cool. Rape turns rapists on, that sure as hell doesn’t make it cool. Facials turn people on, I’m willing to bet 100% of the time (at least in this culture) because it’s degrading. It’s not that a man who ejaculates on a woman’s face wants to degrade her per say (although I’m sure there are plenty that do), it’s that a man who wants to do that get turned on by it because it is degrading, whether or not he acknowledges it.

    Sex doesn’t happen in a vacuum, as Nine Deuce said before.

  60. isme October 22, 2008 at 5:29 AM #

    “As someone that was very deep into the porn viewer culture for a while (not a happy time in my life), trust me on this one: when a dude below the age of fifty is a frequent porn viewer, he’s probably looking at more than Playboy and static pictures that might be considered “erotic art”.”

    Ah, right, got you. Though, if I might ask, do you think that “erotic art” is, for lack of a better term “ok”?

  61. crankosaur October 22, 2008 at 1:46 PM #

    I don’t feel like going through 60 comments, so forgive me if someone has already said this, but one of the most ridiculous things about these people railing about their rights to free speech is that when people disagree with them, they accuse them of being freedom-hating nazis who want to censor everything that doesn’t make them feel warm and fuzzy inside. Free speech is a two-way street: sure you can act like a douchebag, but you’re going to get called out on it. You can really see privilege at work here: the most vocal DBs out there are usually rich white guys, and the people who disagree with them are, well, not, so the RWGs think their opinions are more valid.

  62. syndicalist702 October 22, 2008 at 3:00 PM #

    Found among 9-2′s comments:

    “You know, there have been studies recently that say men who have feminist partners report higher levels of sexual satisfaction.”

    YUP! Nothing like mutual respect to make sex really awesome. Call us crazy.

  63. bonobobabe October 22, 2008 at 6:16 PM #

    I loved this post. The comments? Not so much. These pro-pornies, sex-pozzies are fucking relentless. Do they ever spend five minutes away from the goddamned internet?

  64. Someone October 22, 2008 at 6:44 PM #

    I’m pretty sure men like Hugh Hefner have the highest level of sexual satisfaction.

  65. Nine Deuce October 22, 2008 at 8:02 PM #

    Alright, Sarah. I’m going to write an entire post in answer to your questions about when a sex act becomes degrading (though I’ll not be discussing my private life). It fits in with what I had planned for part 9 anyway. Give me a few days.

    Someone – You’re an idiot.

  66. Dizzy October 22, 2008 at 8:04 PM #

    Sarah, questioning the blogger’s sexual experience and ability to enjoy sex and then instructing her on what sex is *really* all about is incredibly rude and inappropriate. Sounds to me like that same ole “you feminists just need a good screw” argument. Highly offensive, in case you didn’t know.

  67. Evo October 22, 2008 at 8:20 PM #

    I have posed the question about men ejaculating on women’s faces to a few people I know who are pretty much pro-porn. So far no response. I think maybe they have never actually thought about it. I’m interested to see what their responses are going to be.

  68. Jenn October 23, 2008 at 1:06 AM #

    Ah, right, got you. Though, if I might ask, do you think that “erotic art” is, for lack of a better term “ok”?

    Shit, I don’t know. I mean, I know that people like to paint radical feminists as some sort of dogmatic prudes, but the answer is that there is a hell of a lot of things that I don’t know.

    I can’t give you a definite answer as to what features separate exploitation from art. Playboy, in my opinion, is not art. It’s artistic, but the purpose is not to arouse the kind of higher aesthetic sense that art is supposed to. On the scale of Shit That Bothers Me, Playboy is pretty low. Their models are well-paid, and the pictures are not dehumanizing, although they are objectifying. Still, in my ideal patriarchy-less world, Playboy would not exist. But that doesn’t mean that I can just flippantly group it in with Bang Bros.

    Look, I know that people like to look at attractive people. The thing is, the whole process of sexual arousal from another’s physical body is so incredibly fucked up because of our culture that something as simple as a biological response can become morally questionable. Think about women cutting open their bodies to feel better about themselves, because they’re giving more people boners.

    There’s a huge difference between aesthetics and lust, and part of the problem is that the porn culture has tried to pretend that the latter is the former to pass off its shit as “art” or “culture”. There’s nothing new or cultural about men objectifying women to get a boner (reference the extraordinary racism, classism, and sexism in porn). There is something aesthetic, however, about Picasso painting a Cubist analysis of the Spanish Revolution.

    Art can be erotic, but it has to arouse more than the body, it has to touch the mind. Porn doesn’t do that.

    I guess that’s the best answer I can give for that.

  69. sjtindustries October 23, 2008 at 3:48 AM #

    Wow, 68 comments, that’s pretty cool.

    Anyway, of course a ‘facial’ is demeaning. That’s the whole point. Its not just ejaculating in someone’s mouth which can of course happen during oral sex, or on someone’s body – ala the Roman Catholic birth control method. Its deliberately ejaculating on someone’s face.

    I mean, its not exactly easy to get semen out of hair, it doesn’t smell or taste that great (mmm! ammonia goodness), I assume it rather sting if it got in your eye (mmm! ammonia goodness). These things are obvious. It is therefore rather obvious that its not the most pleasant experience – (beyond the nice feeling of satisfying a partner?).

    I think Robert Jensen gets it absolutely right when he states the intention of a facial is to turn the woman into a slut. Which thereby gives you some sort of power over her, and lets face it, power makes you feel good, power is hot. Essentially: ‘this chick just submitted to me coming on her face, how good am I?!’

    Go to any major porn TGP site (basically a daily collection of free porn links), and you’ll come across tens of sites of ‘amateurs’ who have submitted photos – often on mobile phones – of themselves ejaculating onto the faces of their (presumed) girlfriends. Frequently the girls are not even naked, often clearly not enjoying the, err, ‘moment’. Yet someone – many someones – have uploaded these pictures for others enjoyment.

    Personally I can see no enjoyment in a photo of a fully clothed girl with semen on her face and a shocked / disgusted impression – except that the act of a ‘facial’ shows the woman is in some way submissive, or a slut, and this is hot.

    Even the word itself has been co-opted from a beauty regime, to allow men to snigger when its spoken about.

  70. Dan October 23, 2008 at 4:32 AM #

    My engineering-student roommate is dating a woman’s studies major, which I must admit sounds like the beginning of a bad joke made in a campus newspaper, but while she has been visiting this week we’ve had some great conversations. In one, she informed me of a “porn” site called Beautiful Agony. Which depicts nothing but a man’s or a woman’s face while they orgasm. I’m interested to get some people’s opinions about this, because frankly I’m not sure if it can really be considered porn or not, even though it exists to serve the same purpose.

  71. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 4:54 AM #

    Jenn: “. The thing is, the whole process of sexual arousal from another’s physical body is so incredibly fucked up because of our culture that something as simple as a biological response can become morally questionable.”

    This is why I call people like you anti-sex, and slut-shamers.

    You want people to feel guilty about being physically attracted to another person.

    That…is really sick.

    sjtindustries:

    If it tastes like ammonia to you…you’re tasting the wrong semen, or he needs to seriously adjust his diet.

    The only tastes I’ve ever experienced are salty, and cloyingly sweet.

    Again, one person’s opinion of an act is their own. It does not take over the entire act itself, and does not make it the opinion of every single person engaging in it.

    Some rads think all heterosexual sex is rape. Does that mean it is? Nope.

    You’re welcome to an opinion, but don’t dare try to state it as fact.

  72. ms. jared October 23, 2008 at 12:34 PM #

    “Some rads think all heterosexual sex is rape. Does that mean it is? Nope.”

    no radical feminists think all heterosexual sex is rape. that is a myth that has been perpetuated by the pro-porn crowd taking words and quotes out of context to make radical feminists seem crazy and over the top and is the ultimate red herring.

  73. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 1:20 PM #

    ms. jared:

    No, it’s not a myth. Sorry. I never said all, I said some. I know you’d wish to distance yourself from someone who claims the same label as you saying something like that, but, it’s been said.

  74. Nine Deuce October 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM #

    Examples? And don’t even try to say Dworkin.

  75. gare October 23, 2008 at 3:01 PM #

    Great, a bunch of college girls debating porn again. What ND, who does a great job balancing indignation with hipness (Maui’s better than Kaui by the way).. you ALWAYS leave out the most obvious facts here. Addictions are not rational. people in addictions KNOW they are doing damage but they go on dont they. You HAVE to replace it with something spiritual. The southern baptists are doing better than you are, they are ACTION oriented, they dont just post the same blog entry over and over and over! It starts with parents .. my father and mother both wounded me.. how many kids dont learn about the right way to have sex in the home huh huh. Filters on computers for kids? Watch ‘Fireproof’, I think its still in theaters .. the guy gives up his porn addiction for his relationship but ONLY with spiritual help. the rev gare spaketh thusly

  76. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 3:16 PM #

    Look around online. Lots of rad blogs push that viewpoint, in one way or another.

    IBTP does, just off the top of my head. I could do some digging and get exact names of more, if you like.

    Another I can think of, which, I believe the blog is now gone, is “Biting Beaver”.

    • truthvscompliance October 14, 2009 at 7:53 PM #

      Biting Beaver never said heterosex was wrong. WTF? I actually have her entire blog saved onto my computer. NICE f’ing try. Give us an ACTUAL website or link… Saying they exist without the evidence does NOTHING to prove your point.

  77. Evo October 23, 2008 at 3:33 PM #

    Why is Sarah still here? She’s not open to discussion. She keeps repeating the same tired-ass nonsensical arguments. She makes my head hurt.

    Oh, and based on the responses I got, all of the women (pro-porn included) understand that jizzing on someone’s face is an degrading act meant to show dominance. Most men don’t want to answer. The one answer I did get from a man is very telling and makes me want to puke and cry simultaneously: “My theory of course is that most men get their sexual instruction from watching porn. And since almost always every porn ends with a girls face covered in goo, we are programmed into thinking that this is the height of sexual fantasy. And the more girls oppose to the idea the more tantalizing the thought of finding a girl that would be willing to do so. The thought of a pretty face covered in cum gives her the slutty feel every man wants. Every man wants a lady in public but a slut in the bedroom. Thats my opinion any way.”

    This part especially gets to me “And the more girls oppose to the idea the more tantalizing the thought of finding a girl that would be willing to do so.” (The less you women want it, the more we are going to try to do it to you. Those of you that don’t submit will be discarded. Nice.)

  78. Ceeja October 23, 2008 at 4:39 PM #

    “Sexual adventurousness is not the same thing as simply allowing oneself to be penetrated in a new orifice out of fear that one’s partner will look elsewhere if one doesn’t.”
    That’s exactly what I was getting at. If you don’t want to try something, don’t. If someone forces you, or coerces you, or ‘guilt-trips’ you, or says you’re being too “rigid” (read: frigid) to try and convince you to.. well, that’s not good. Unless you’re so deeply entrenched in porn you think that’s how healthy sexual relations happen, which I think is sad. Even sadder is the fact that people like Sarah get all offended when someone questions this.

    Sarah, it’s rather hypocritical of you to tell people to respect your sexual choices when you think suggesting someone hasn’t had sex is some kind of put-down, which is exactly the same as the slut-shaming you’re accusing people of here. Helpful.
    If you enjoy being ejaculated on, fine. I honestly don’t care. Just don’t kid yourself that because you like it, it isn’t demeaning or degrading in any way… or that no men find the fact that they perceive it as a degrading act to perform on a woman erotic.
    Plus, I wasn’t putting words in your mouth, you explicitly stated that if you say no to something, men will turn to porn.

    Can’t wait to read part 9.

  79. Nine Deuce October 23, 2008 at 4:57 PM #

    Sarah – You can take that up with Twisty et al. If you care to know my opinion on whether all het sex is rape, see War on Terr’r Part 6. But anyway, it has nothing to do with what’s being discussed here.

  80. Ceeja October 23, 2008 at 5:10 PM #

    I apologise, first to Nine Deuce for the double post and secondly to Sarah for forgetting her question.

    “Would you call it a “demand” on your part, if you came to your partner with something new to try in bed?”
    Not at all, in fact if he said, “Nah I don’t really want to do that”, I would be fine with that. If I, upon hearing his rejection, was anything BUT ok about it, that would be wrong on my part. But of course it wouldn’t happen, because I have refused him things, and vice-versa. Guess what? Things are fine, because we respect each other, and still feel comfortable enough to suggest other things, contrary to what you think.
    If you feel so insecure in a relationship or even just in casual sexual encounters that you feel you can’t say no for fear of -whatever-, that’s not good.
    I’m well aware that relationships and sex involve give-and-take, I’m also well aware that a man who can’t cope with me having the right to say no is not the man for me.

    Who called you boring? It’s you who keeps making suggestions about other people including calling me boring, saying Nine Deuce is a virgin, most of us here don’t care about our partner’s pleasure, blah blah. I’d like to quote you at this point:
    “who do you think you are, that you think you’re allowed to define my sex life for me?”
    Who do YOU think YOU are, thinking you’re allowed to define OUR sex lives?
    I believe my last comment suggested you may be being rather hypocritical. I take it back, you actually deserve a medal in hypocrisy.

  81. Dudikoff October 23, 2008 at 5:15 PM #

    I masturbate alot to pictures of athleticly built women. Is that wrong? Just curious.

  82. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 5:18 PM #

    You were the one that asked for examples.

    My point was, just because some people hold an opinion of something, doesn’t make it THE universally held “truth” of a thing.

    It just makes it an opinion.

    Ceeja: It’s more that it bothers me when people shame me for something I enjoy, and insult the act, insult me, and insult my partner, and refuse to say why they hold those beliefs. The only excuse given so far is “Because other people said it, too, so that legitimizes my saying it”.

    I never said Nine Deuce or anyone else here had to do it, I just requested they stop dumping on me for enjoying it, and stop insinuating there’s something wrong with me, or that I’m somehow not a feminist, because I enjoy a different kind of sex than they do.

    The reason I said “rigid”, is because when you go into something with a preconceived notion of it, and refuse to see ANY other opinion, then that’s the essence of rigidity.

    It also seeks to define a two person activity by the rules of one person. Which isn’t egalitarian, or fun, by any means.

    I never suggested that not having sex was a put down. Just implied that when someone has very particular views on sex, it makes it look as though they’ve never really experienced a sexual relationship. Because it’s easy to set up these rigid, perfect rules, and give it “This is how *I* would handle it!” setup, when you’ve never been there.

    That’s all.

    See, there’s my point. “Don’t kid yourself that it isn’t degrading, etc”.

    You’re trying to put YOUR opinion on me. You have your opinion. I do not hold your opinion. I respect your having it, and your right to have it, but you act like I’m some dumb bimbo that has never talked about this with her partner.

    That’s insulting.

    My point on the porn thing was, if you’re rigid, and never allow your partner to do anything new, yeah, it’s safe to say they might look for it elsewhere.

    Does that mean it’s right or justified, if they move to porn for it? Or another person? That wasn’t even something I touched on. I’m just saying a logical sequence of events.

    If you continually ensure your partner is sexually unsatisfied, you aren’t innocent in the situation anymore. If you deny someone’s wants and needs on a constant basis, you aren’t fulfilling your half of the relationship, really.

    I wouldn’t want my wants and needs denied, ignored, or cast aside, would you?

    Nine: I’d rather not bother taking it up with her. I’ve read her blog casually, and seen what happens to dissenters. It’s not worth the head-slamming frustration.

    At least you have civil conversation with me, which is more than I can say for what happens there.

    • smurfqueen October 19, 2013 at 4:45 AM #

      “The reason I said “rigid”, is because when you go into something with a preconceived notion of it, and refuse to see ANY other opinion, then that’s the essence of rigidity.”

      So… we are not allowed to set boundaries, to have things we are not willing to do, just because the man might want to do those things? Are you insane? My ex insisted on trying anal. I finally gave in, it was horrifyingly uncomfortable and painful and a bit messy, and I refuse to do anal with any guy ever again. I absolutely have the right to say no to something I am not comfortable with. You seem to think that a woman’s consent is not necessary, or perhaps rather that she damn well better consent to EVERYTHING because otherwise she’s a rigid prude who will never try anything new. Newsflash, not wanting to do certain things with a partner =/= not being willing to try ANY new things. I won’t let a guy punch me black and blue or shit on my chest; that DOES NOT MEAN that I’m not willing to try something new ever. Having reasonable boundaries for the protection of one’s safety or out of self-respect does not make one “rigid” or “boring” in bed. You make it sound as though unless a woman is willing to do everything that has ever been done in porn, she’s bad in bed and has no right to be hurt if the guy neglects her for porn or (worse) a more “compliant” woman who will let him use her as he will. Being used is not “fun”. Sex is fun, pleasing each other in the mutual dance of give and take is highly enjoyable. Being treated as a cum-bucket is not.

  83. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 5:32 PM #

    (Also sorry for the double, but I wanted to address this)

    Ceeja said: “If you feel so insecure in a relationship or even just in casual sexual encounters that you feel you can’t say no for fear of -whatever-, that’s not good.”

    No, I don’t feel that. But my point was, I’ve asked for things that he had never even thought about, or would have never considered on his own, and he was willing, because he knew I’d enjoy it.

    Likewise, I’ve done the same for him.

    It’s not some “fear” of saying no, it’s the fact that it’s give and take, and I know again, I might ask for something he’s not expressly interested in.

    Also, when I say someone doesn’t sound interested in their partner’s pleasure, it comes from them outright saying they will be the one’s controlling all aspects of the sexual encounter.

    That’s rude and boring to me. If I refused to ever entertain suggestions from my partner, what would be mutually pleasurable or egalitarian about our sex life?

  84. Nine Deuce October 23, 2008 at 5:36 PM #

    You talk an awful lot about women doing things for their male partners. What about women’s wants and needs?

  85. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 5:43 PM #

    I stressed that already. Repeatedly in my last comment, as well.

    To quote myself:

    “I’ve asked for things that he had never even thought about, or would have never considered on his own, and he was willing, because he knew I’d enjoy it.”

    “I might ask for something he’s not expressly interested in.”

    And I know I’ve mentioned it before in other comments. Are you selectively ignoring my having said that?

  86. Ceeja October 23, 2008 at 5:52 PM #

    Sarah,
    “If you continually ensure your partner is sexually unsatisfied, you aren’t innocent in the situation anymore. If you deny someone’s wants and needs on a constant basis, you aren’t fulfilling your half of the relationship, really.
    I wouldn’t want my wants and needs denied, ignored, or cast aside, would you?“
    I find this incredibly offensive, so I’d suggest you stop whining about being insulted and talked to as though you aren’t human. My partner isn’t sexually unsatisfied. I said we have the right to say no to each other, what’s wrong with that? I don’t think that counts as emotional abuse. Do you think it goes, “Gee, I don’t want to do X so I guess we can’t have any sexual contact what-so-ever.” ? Seriously?
    See, I wouldn’t want my NEEDS denied, because that would be a human rights violation. However, a WANT is something completely different. I WANT lots of things, unfortunately in this world you can’t have everything you want. If my partner *wants* his dinner on the table as soon as he gets home from work, then I’m afraid he’s out of luck because I work too and wouldn’t have time to do that. According to you, this means I’m not “fulfilling my half of the relationship”. To me, however, it’s called reality.
    As for the “what-if” situation, I also find it insulting that you presume I haven’t “been there”. If you could just stop presuming everyone posting here except you is a total prude for a moment and consider this; I HAVE been there and that is why I hold certain beliefs.
    Because I HAVE been with men who can’t accept my right to say no, in varying degrees, starting with coercion and ending with rape. My experiences with men who do accept it, however, were monumentally different and monumentally more pleasurable.
    Although I presume you think that having your life experiences denied is nothing compared to thinking someone thinks you’re a bimbo… Now who’s putting words in whose mouth?

  87. Ceeja October 23, 2008 at 6:04 PM #

    Sarah,
    I specifically addressed the point that I do not “refuse to ever entertain suggestions from my partner”. I also pointed out that it is a vice-versa situation (as you said, compromise), so the “they will be the one’s controlling all aspects of the sexual encounter” comment is totally irrelevant and only serves to prove you aren’t actually reading what I’m typing here.

    And the “you” in “if you feel insecure” was meant more generically, based on all the women I’ve known who have felt they can’t say no, myself included. I apologise if you thought I meant you personally.

  88. Nine Deuce October 23, 2008 at 6:11 PM #

    Sarah – Where do you get the idea that my not wanting to be degraded would leave my partner in a state of continual dissatisfaction? You’re assuming that all men want to re-enact porn scenes on the women they have sex with, and that that’s the only way they can be satisfied. Did you ever stop to consider the idea that there are men who don’t get off on degrading acts? Or that, even if they do, they can still be asked to respect their partners’ emotional comfort zone and still take enough responsibility for their own actions to not use porn or cheat on their partners? You’re infantilizing men, aren’t you? I think 702 often makes good points on this very subject.

    • Justin October 23, 2013 at 2:27 PM #

      I’m not trying to sound like some kinda Casanova here or anything, but I can honestly say that I get more enjoyment out of pleasing my girlfriend than any other sexual act or thought that I can conceive. When I go down on her, the pleasure she experiences makes me immensely aroused and I feel a unique and powerful set of emotions that are hard to describe on a keyboard.

      It can’t be about the man’s desires all of the time. My girlfriend decides when, not me. That’s the way it should be. Anything else would mean that I was disrespectful and selfish.

      I believe that men should put their girlfriend’s/wife’s needs first. So many guys think that such a lifestyle will cause them (men) to become unhappy, but nothing could be farther from the truth.

      Most guys are just focused on the release, but actually I find it more pleasurable to please her for long periods of time even without release. It makes for an amazing sexual experience. The sense of unity is beyond any words I can explain here.

      The idea that I would rather look at some porn video seems laughably ridiculous. I want all men to understand this and why giving up porn is not about attenuating their sexuality (as so many assume). But actually improving it.

      My view of sex is it’s about the journey, not what comes at the end. When you realize that, you will have an ineffable experience with the person you love.

  89. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 6:21 PM #

    Ceeja:

    No, more that my point is if your partner asks for something, and you say no, then they ask for something else, and you say no, then you aren’t being fair.

    Especially if you ask for things and expect a “yes”.

    As far as the control, my point was if you enter a sexual relationship with someone, and you already have a set list of “things I will deny”, you aren’t being open to their interests/wants. You’re being rigid, selfish, and unfair.

    Because like I said, you might also have a list of wants, that they might not find to be exactly their cup of tea. My partner lets me do things with him that aren’t really his bag, but are mine, because it pleases me, and really, two people in a sexual relationship should have some concern with pleasing their partner.

    Nine: See, again, you keep saying it’s degrading, but you won’t say why. Why is it degrading? Because you say it is? Is it because you find semen a degrading substance? That’s why I jump to that conclusion, because you won’t give why.

    Saying “Well, in porn it’s considered degrading” or “Well, MacKinnon said it was/Dworkin said it was” isn’t a valid answer.

    I would think a central tenet of feminist thought would be to think for one’s self.

    I mean, I base my opinion on it not from porn, but from what it means to myself and my partner.

    Is it degrading to him that I like to tie him to the mattress (tmi, I know)?

    I don’t see it as me degrading him, I just happen to enjoy it. That’s the thing, if you have an opinion of something, it needs to be formed by you, not formed by someone else and given to you.

    That’s why I don’t like you telling me it’s degrading. I don’t think it is. Therefore, to me, it is not.

    I know I need to articulate this better.

  90. Nine Deuce October 23, 2008 at 6:43 PM #

    I do form my own opinions, thanks for the insult. Can you honestly come to this, of all pages on the internet, and tell me you think I don’t form my opinions for myself? Let me tell you something: I wrote nearly every post on this page before I’d read a word written by Dworkin or MacKinnon. I came to these conclusions by looking around me and seeing what the fuck is going on.

    I’ve explained what’s degrading about men ejaculating onto women’s faces, as have several other posters. If you want to pretend not to get what we’re saying, go ahead. The point is that I won’t do anything I feel uncomfortable with, and I won’t sleep with anyone who doesn’t respect my feelings. I don’t give a fuck what you do, like I said. If you don’t feel degraded, right on, but I can’t believe you don’t see what’s degrading about having someone ejaculate on your face. You are, flat out, the ONLY person I’ve ever come into contact with who didn’t.

    As much as sex-positive types want to pretend they do, sex acts don’t take place in a vacuum. Like I’ve said over and over, there is no sex act that is inherently degrading, but there are reasons why particular sex acts are generally degrading within our culture. My next post will be on this topic. Until then, no more of this. This is not what this thread is about.

  91. Ceeja October 23, 2008 at 6:58 PM #

    Sarah,
    “No, more that my point is if your partner asks for something, and you say no, then they ask for something else, and you say no, then you aren’t being fair.”
    How do you know I say no to everything? As Nine Deuce has just said, you are assuming all men want to act out porn scenes. Perhaps this is where we got lost in translation, as I now try my best to avoid men who *don’t accept my right to say no*.
    You seem to think that saying no is more of a privilege, and it isn’t.
    There is a difference between something that “isn’t your bag” and something that you do not want to do.
    OK, seeing as you like real-life examples… the only pleasure I get from performing oral sex is knowing my partner enjoys it, vice versa. It’s not something I’m always dying to do, sometimes I don’t feel like it, so I guess it’s “not my bag”. On the other hand, I (so cruelly, apparently) refuse anal sex because a; I find it too painful and b; it brings up some very bad memories for me.
    Why do you think this is so unreasonable?
    Back to Nine Deuce’s comment, maybe I am lucky to be in a relationship with someone who “can still be asked to respect their partners’ emotional comfort zone and still take enough responsibility for their own actions to not use porn or cheat on their partners”.

    “and really, two people in a sexual relationship should have some concern with pleasing their partner.”
    These constant suggestions that we are boring and don’t care about partners are getting childish. You aren’t reading people’s replies, and if you are you must be deliberately ignoring the bits that don’t fit with your argument
    If you really, really can’t cope with someone else who you will probably never meet in your life finding something you enjoy degrading, then I, again, suggest you find something else to occupy your time with.
    Contrary to what your behaviour suggests you believe, we do actually have reasons behind our opinions, and what you do in bed will not change our long-thought-out opinions on anything. Your hypocrisy is getting tedious, I shall ask again, who do you think you are to define our sex lives when we aren’t allowed an opinion on something that we didn’t even know that you did until you came here and told us?

  92. Sarah October 23, 2008 at 7:02 PM #

    You haven’t, really, though. You’ve said “It’s degrading because it’s portrayed as such in porn. It’s degrading because Robert Jensen said so.”

    That’s not what I’m asking. What about it, specifically, makes it a degrading act? Is it the semen? Is it the face? What, exactly? I’m seeking specifics. I don’t personally feel degraded, but then again, I don’t think there’s anything inherently disgusting or wrong about a natural bodily fluid that is released as a result of pleasure.

    My reason for saying what I said wasn’t an insult. It’s just, whenever someone here has called it degrading, they don’t ever specifically say why, aside from saying someone else’s opinion of it.

    I know you find it hard to believe I don’t see it as degrading, but I can’t find anything degrading in it.

    It starts with, like I said, all it is is a bodily fluid released because he was pleasured. There’s nothing threatening in that, to me. I like to know that I’ve given pleasure. Same reason men stress so much about giving orgasms. I don’t think anyone wants to think they’re lousy in bed, after all. Especially not with someone they care about.

    Secondly, the face is a very personal part of someone, just like inside of me is. That’s why it’s generally more arousing to have sex without a condom, even aside from the simple “it feels better”. It’s more intimate. I don’t see it as any worse than swallowing, or spitting, or any other use of it. I just see it as changing things up once in a while, and I find it fun. Shrug.

    Sex acts might not take place in a vacuum, but they also aren’t a black hole that draws everything in. Otherwise, like I said, because vaginal ejaculation was depicted in a porn, it would mean all vaginal ejaculation was inherently pornographic/bad. See what I’m getting at?

    I think it is also up to the participants to define what something means to themselves as a couple. Letting society define it for you is antifeminist to me.

  93. Ceeja October 23, 2008 at 7:05 PM #

    Nine Deuce, amen to that. Sorry for the derailment.

  94. Jones October 23, 2008 at 7:13 PM #

    Yep. Just because you (imagine it in italics) think it’s gross doesn’t mean it’s gross. You college students like to add complexity to simple shit because it makes you feel smart. I hope it’s working out for you.

  95. ms. jared October 23, 2008 at 8:06 PM #

    neither twisty nor biting beaver has said that all heterosexual sex is rape.

    they have both discussed RAPE extensively on their blogs, but they have not said that ALL hetero sex is rape. twisty has said it’s gross. biting beaver *is* heterosexual.

    i am a radical feminist and i’ve read and studied radical feminism for a number of years now. i’ve NEVER read or heard ANY radfem say that ALL heterosexual sex is rape, i’ve only heard pro-porn people say that radfems say that all heterosexual sex is rape by willfully misunderstanding and taking things out of context.

    (sorry if this comment isn’t exactly on topic, but i get tired of hearing that line trotted out by pro-porn people to make their argument. it’s not true so it shouldn’t be used to prove their point.)

  96. Jenn October 23, 2008 at 8:25 PM #

    For all her bigotry, shortsightedness, and inability to read, Sarah illustrates neatly the point of your argument:

    Men have needs that are rights. Men have wants that are rights. Men have priviledges that are rights.

    Women have needs that “turn men to porn”. Women have wants that are “selfish” and “prude”. And priviledges? Forget about it.

  97. gayle October 24, 2008 at 12:38 AM #

    Why, oh, why did this become the Sarah thread?

    Anyway, I just wanted to chime in and say I agree with syndicalist702. Porn is hate speech.

  98. Sarah October 24, 2008 at 1:54 AM #

    ms. jared:

    She wishes to make all heterosexual sex a crime. The crime of rape. Illegal. That would imply a belief that all of it is, in fact, rape.

    BitingBeaver is now infamous for saying because she had a son, she is sending a rapist into the world. She got too radical for most rads, which is saying something.

  99. B October 24, 2008 at 4:43 AM #

    Hey, can we all try to be a little nicer to Sarah? I get it, some of you are frustrated and sick of arguing with sex-pozzies; she unfairly insulted 92, and she hasn’t gone back and read the other insightful posts in this series; etc. But read what she said — she’s upset because she feels like you’re “slut-shaming” her and attacking her personally, and that’s why she’s responding by going on the attack. Maybe some of you never bought into the whole “porn = free choice and liberation” thing (I did), or you’ve so thoroughly rejected that viewpoint that you can no longer empathize. Fair enough, but realize that she’s coming from a context where she perceives the biggest threat to her autonomous sexual expression is being told what to do (good girls don’t have sex, good girls don’t let boys do that to them) and the best way to solve it is uninhibited sexual freedom (expressed through a willingness to “try everything once”).

    @ Sarah

    I’m probably a bit more moderate on this issue than other people here (although I’m perhaps more radical on others), so I’m not going to propose a set of concrete answers for you. More, I’m going to just raise some issues I think are worthy of thought in this regard.

    First, why do some women choose to take jobs as porn actresses? Why do they want to have sex for money rather than getting themselves off? Do you think a lack of options or a difficult economic situation factors into that very much? How do you think they feel about the fact that strangers and people they know alike can watch them having sex as long as they’re willing to pay? Do you think they maybe feel cheapened by it? Could they better express their sexual autonomy by reserving their sexuality for people that turn them on and treat them in ways that make them feel good, rather than by allowing their image to be mass produced to give others jack-off material? Do you think there are very many women who actually enjoy being in pornography? Do you think the patriarchy’s eroticization of treating women as objects has anything to do with that?

    Do you think pornography expands our conceptions of human sexuality, or do you think it limits the potential range of it? Do you think that the only way to go outside the box in terms of human sexuality is kinkiness? What other forms of expression might there be? Do you think we might dream up more fulfilling means of keeping sex interesting if left to invent our own fantasies, rather than watching full-color explosions of what other people think our fantasies are? Do you think pornography alters our expectations of sex? Do you think that alteration is generally positive or negative? Realistic or unrealistic? Do you think missionary (or simple forms of mixing up sex, like changing positions and locales, but still ultimately remaining vanilla) are inherently boring, or is it only because we now expect sex to be crazy-exciting with lots of kinks (essentially, to be like pornography)? Do you think there are women for whom kinkiness is a burden more than a freedom? Do you think women ever feel pressured to perform a particular sexual act because it is regularly depicted in porn (and thus expected)?

    Do you think there are any kinds of pornography which might show images which are harmful or which it might be better to choose not to view? Do you think porn depicting women in pain or coerced into sex acts is harmful (to men and women, to our conceptions of sexuality, to the way we relate sexually to each other, to what we consider erotic, etc.)? Do you think the majority of porn relies upon sexual stereotypes, unrealistic depictions of women’s sexuality, economic pressure applied to actresses, or any other unfeminist things? In light of the porn that is currently out there, do you believe the burden is upon feminists to prove that it is harmful, or on pornographers to prove that it’s acceptable? Do you think wanting to watch videos of other people having sex is a natural and healthy impulse? Do you think wanting to watch the kinds of standard porn videos that are out there is a natural and healthy impulse?

    Why do you (or any woman) want to have your partner ejaculate on your (or any woman’s) face? Why does your partner (or any man) want to ejaculate on your (or any woman’s) face? Given the power relations that are culturally predominant, do you think domination or humiliation could have anything to do with it? If not, why else would it be sexy? Do you think this alternate explanation for why it is sexy is the reason most porn viewers find it sexy?

    My point with all of these questions is, there’s a lot more to this issue than “all consenting adults! that means we’re all free to do whatever we want!” Well, duh. Obviously porn actresses who accept money for their services made a choice. Obviously women who allow men to ejaculate on their faces made a choice. We’re not saying to shame people who make those choices, and we’re not saying we should legally ban them. But it’s important to consider, why do people make these choices? We know that the culture we live in makes some assumptions about gender roles and sexuality. How does porn interact with those power relations? How do we make sex and sexuality empowering for all participants?

    When we answer those questions, we try to see the whole context. We think that context includes uneven gender roles, and believe that patriarchal thinking warps mainstream expressions of sexuality like porn. As an alternative, we don’t see a world where everyone engages in every sexual act without analyzing it, but rather one in which we consider each other’s feelings and in which we occasionally step back to see whether what we think we want is really sexually good for us. We see a world where people probably don’t want to intentionally spray bodily fluids on other people’s faces (perhaps you disagree), and a world where people have their own satisfying personal fantasies and sex lives that pornography seems like a cheap substitute for real human sexuality.

    You might come to different conclusions, but the rad fem critique is not meant to return to “NO! YOU CAN’T DO THAT! GOOD GIRLS DON’T DO THAT!” Rather, it is to move towards a future conception of sexuality that is more personal and more satisfying for all participants. Maybe there’s a way to incorporate face-shots into that world. (I personally think probably not, or at least not until both partners have seriously deconstructed power roles.) Maybe there’s a way to incorporate anal sex into that world. (I personally think probably.) In all honesty, that world probably looks different for all of us (for some people it may involve waiting for sex until marriage or at least love). It’s okay that those worlds all look different. But I promise, promise, promise that when we say that we don’t think a particular act meshes well with a positive sexuality, it is not a referendum on the people who choose that activity. It is not us scolding and saying no. It’s just us saying “Hey, I’m not comfortable with this, and here’s why I think you might want to think it over again too.”

    Regards,

    B

  100. isme October 24, 2008 at 9:21 AM #

    Did I really need to read the comments, or should I just pick someone at random to yell “I’m not being insulting, you are and you’re not as feminist as I am” at?

    Sarah:
    ‘You haven’t, really, though. You’ve said “It’s degrading because it’s portrayed as such in porn.”‘

    That’s why it’s degrading. It’s seen as degrading in our culture because of how it appears in porn. As mentioned several times “sex doesn’t happen in a vacuum”.

    92:
    If Sarah doesn’t see the act as degrading, if she can’t understand why she should see the act as degrading, doesn’t it mean that the act isn’t degrading her? Assuming that her partner sees things the same way, of course.

    Now, just for a change of pace, could the people who want to misquote me or put words in my mouth not claim that I’m not as feminist as they are, but that I’m, in fact, the terrible flesh-eating wendigo from the mythology of the Algonquin people?

  101. mq October 24, 2008 at 11:29 AM #

    “BitingBeaver is now infamous for saying because she had a son, she is sending a rapist into the world. She got too radical for most rads, which is saying something.”

    It makes me upset that such lies are spread about BB. She was an excellent writer who was target of horrible internet abuse. Geez, where did you hear that, from /b/ browsers?

  102. ms. jared October 24, 2008 at 12:54 PM #

    sarah, i would’ve let it go but you keep addressing me specifically.

    again, willfully misunderstanding and misconstruing hyperbole, and taking things out of context. that’s your prerogative, but it doesn’t make it true.

    i’m guessing you’ve never actually read twisty or biting beaver and that you’ve just heard “what they wrote” through other people. i’ve read loads of pro-porn bloggers commenting on those blogs as well as their own, misstating what’s being said. similar in fact, to what’s happened here.

  103. Sarah October 24, 2008 at 1:13 PM #

    As far as why women take jobs as porn actresses, I’m sure the reasons are as varied as the people involved.

    I don’t claim to know all the reasons why. I’d say asking them would be more fruitful than asking me.

    Of course I think some kinds of porn are unpleasant. But it’s a funny line. For instance, one could say violent films/video games/whatever are unhealthy and bad, (which people often do). But society offers an age limit for those products, same as adult material. I’m not one to tell legal adults what they can and cannot look at. The whole age limit is meant to be so that adults can make their own choices about what they think is acceptable to consume, as far as media.

    Yes, I do think plain missionary gets boring after a while. It’s like eating the same food, every day, every meal. Even if you like it, eventually you want something else. I don’t believe it’s because of porn that it gets boring, either. It just does.

    I can only lay in the same position, doing the exact same thing, so many times before it becomes less something exciting and fun, and more something routine and dull.

    Changing up positions or locations is a bit of a help, but even then, you’re still cycling through a limited amount of the same thing. It gets old. Unless you plan to only have sex with your partner once a month or so, you’re going to exhaust the potential pretty quickly.

    Why do I have him ejaculate on my face? (Or why would any woman?) I can’t speak for any other woman. I think it’s fun. It’s different than swallowing. It’s intimate, to me. I don’t feel dominated or humiliated by it. Why would the physical result of pleasure be humiliating?

    Why does he (want to)? Because the first time this particular partner did, was because I asked/told him to. Considering he’s not calling me “slut” or “whore” or anything like that when it happens, I don’t think he believes he’s humiliating or dominating me.

    To borrow someone else’s quote:

    “Logically, if sex is natural and wholesome and semen is as healthy as sweat, there is no reason to interpret ejaculation as a hostile gesture.”

    As for why other people find it sexy, ask them. I’ve told you why I do, and really, I’m not the authority on other people’s perceptions.

    Though, as far as sex being empowering, I think I’m more concerned with it being enjoyable. And if I enjoy it, then it’s purpose was served. Sex isn’t meant to give you power, it’s meant to give you pleasure.

    Yes, I do disagree. I don’t see why said world in which you envision would become more vanilla in sex.

    It just sounds like you’re saying in your ideal world, you’re offering a slightly changed version of virgin/whore. I don’t see anything wrong with a facial, nor do I see it as inherently harmful to sexuality. Unless you think semen anywhere but the inside of a condom or vagina is harmful.

    See, if it’s not about “GOOD GIRLS DON’T DO THAT”, and more about sexuality that is personal and satisfying, why is something that’s personal and satisfying to me being ripped into, (and subsequently, me being told I’m wrong/bad for doing it)?

    My whole point is, yes, you don’t see it fitting into positive sexuality. I do. I don’t see why it’s negative. I don’t see what’s inherently dominating, or humiliating, or bad about something as simple as semen, the release of which is a physical representation of pleasure.

    And yes, I’ve thought it over. I know that’s what’s being asked, and after thinking it over, I still enjoy it, and come to my same conclusions.

  104. L October 24, 2008 at 3:13 PM #

    I love that Sarah got all offended because she felt like radfems here were slut-shaming her, and then she has the audacity to say, “Vanilla missionary is stale.” Let’s talk about judging others’ sexuality and sexual preferences. Wowza.

    Anyway, I just wanted to say a couple things. First, ND, I’m glad you’re back to writing, especially this porn series. And second, this was especially well written, and after I read it, I wanted to ask you to marry me. Nice work.

  105. Sarah October 24, 2008 at 3:22 PM #

    Isme: You’re a horrible, scary wendigo.

    Moving on, I could also say that since vaginal ejaculation is portrayed in porn, that that is now inherently bad. That’s why I said that no, sex isn’t a vacuum, but it’s not a black hole that pulls in everything around it, either.

    mq: As much as BB would try to avoid it, I’ve collected screenshots that I’ve seen with my own eyes. I know she, and a lot of others, once they realized the blacklash of her words, tried to unsay them. It doesn’t work. The internet remembers. You can’t undo something once you’ve placed it online, especially not since the advent of things like Google’s caching of pages.

    ms. jared: I’ve read twisty. She even states, herself, that her plan makes heterosexual sex illegal. I don’t really see any other way to take that. If she wants the legal definition of all hetero sex to be rape, then she thinks all hetero sex is rape.

    As for BB, as I said, I’ve seen things she posted, it’s not my fault she wants to try to unsay the things she’s said.

  106. Sarah October 24, 2008 at 4:08 PM #

    L:

    It DOES get stale. Can you honestly say you wouldn’t get bored of doing the exact same thing, every day, every time? Like I said, try eating the exact same thing, every day, for every meal. Tell me it won’t get boring.

    I’m speaking for myself, but also in general. I can’t possibly see a way in which never doing anything new or different wouldn’t get boring.

  107. Evo October 24, 2008 at 7:27 PM #

    mq: “It makes me upset that such lies are spread about BB. She was an excellent writer who was target of horrible internet abuse.”

    I agree. I miss her. The things people did/said to her were absolutely unacceptable.

  108. L October 24, 2008 at 8:47 PM #

    In YOUR OPINION it gets stale, Sarah. Not everyone is the same as you, and you need to NOT speak generally. My partner and I have pretty much the same kind of sex every time we have sex, and we’ve been having sex for about 15 months now. It hasn’t gotten stale because we both like it and it works for us. It works for me in particular because I know what to expect and I feel no need to perform, show off, or impress my partner. I can focus on feeling good, which is something that I wasn’t able to do before this partner.

    I suppose you’ll think that I don’t do enough to please my partner and therefore that I don’t care about his pleasure, but I’ll remind you that you’re not in my relationship. I’m not having sex with you, and neither is anyone else on this thread. If YOU think that YOU need to do all this stuff so that your partner is pleased, then have at it, but don’t apply that shit to MY sex life. I can’t believe you have the fucking audacity to call what’s happening here slut-shaming when you’re the one criticizing others’ sex lives for being boring! What the fuck is going in your head? That is hypocrisy at its finest.

    You need to be quiet now, Sarah. Shh.

  109. Maggie Hays October 24, 2008 at 9:47 PM #

    Excellent post, Nine! :)

    Is quanli Mandarin or Cantonese Chinese? Just asking…

    Any man who uses pornography is creating the demand for an industry that inherently subordinates women, an industry that relies on the suffering of the women and girls inside & outside of it in order to survive. Men have to take their fucking responsibilities for their assholish actions against women (whether porn performers, prostitutes, girlfriends, wives, or acquaintances) and give up on the fucking porn – because it harms women and girls -both prostituted and unprostituted- so much. Besides, sexual imagination can go beyond the boundaries of pornography.

    It is not a woman’s responsibility to “get over” the damage that her partner’s porn use causes. It is his responsibility to stop causing the damage.

    Exactly!

    People seem seriously confused about the difference between a right and a privilege these days.

    Yep, I totally agree. I’m fed up with people arguing for their “rights” to jerk off to the degradation and torture of women. I wish guys who are porn users would seriously question their own male privilege for once. :(

    What we are seeing in each of these examples is classic rights inflation coupled with willful myopia. These over-privileged, whiny little assholes who’ve never had to deal with any sort of serious infringement upon their rights. . . have come to see their privileges as rights, and to use language that ought to be reserved for decrying the most egregious of abominations to defend those privileges.

    Wow, Nine! You sure have a way with words. Well-said! :P

    How many of my readers have been in a relationship with a dude who thinks he’s entitled to use porn and that it’s your responsibility to “get over it”?. . . How many of my readers know someone who is struggling with the feelings of anger, betrayal, and inadequacy that a partner’s porn use has created?

    Well, I’m one of them.

    Tell him that, since it isn’t technically cheating, he has no right to try to tell you what to do.

    Great point.

    Women have three choices when it comes to this horseshit: avoid men (if only it were possible to will oneself into lesbianism), find a dude who will respect our emotional boundaries, or tolerate being abused emotionally.

    Yep, Nine! Choices are limited in a patriarchy. :(

    i am a radical feminist and i’ve read and studied radical feminism for a number of years now. i’ve NEVER read or heard ANY radfem say that ALL heterosexual sex is rape, i’ve only heard pro-porn people say that radfems say that all heterosexual sex is rape by willfully misunderstanding and taking things out of context.

    Neither have I. I agree, Ms Jared.

    p.s.: Nine, thanks for this post. I’ve not had time to read much of the comment thread (only a few bits and pieces), but I hope you’re not being too attacked by some commenters. Peace Yo!

  110. Nine Deuce October 24, 2008 at 10:18 PM #

    It’s the Mandarin pronunciation, but the characters have the same meaning in both.

  111. Sarah October 25, 2008 at 1:03 AM #

    L: 15 months is, you know, nothing.

    Try having the exact same sex for 5 years.

    Then tell me it’s not boring.

    No variation, no change in position, location, rhythm, duration, nothing. Not even something as simple as leaving the damned lights on.

    Then tell me you don’t find it routine and dull.

    Also, if you read, I said “I’m speaking for myself here”.

    That, and most people will say never, ever doing anything different gets dull.

    Most adult humans can’t be captivated by mindless repetition.

  112. gayle October 25, 2008 at 1:24 AM #

    Sarah’s collected screen-shots of BB’s posts?

    How creepy.

  113. B October 25, 2008 at 5:31 AM #

    Sarah,

    You keep talking about choice like we’re on a different page there, like we’re trying to advocate for the banning of using porn. Yes, using porn is a choice. We’re simply arguing that it is a *bad* choice. There’s a difference between arguing that something is bad and that it should be outlawed. We (or at least I, and most of us here) are arguing the former. Our approach is much more similar to saying “these video games are supportive of interpersonal violence in a damaging way, thus, we adults should not choose to purchase and play them” than it is “all video games with killing in them should be immediatly banned” (to use your example).

    I think you missed the point with respect to my questions because you responded nearly exclusively with a defense of your personal sexual practices. I’m far less interested in why *you* enjoy semen on your face than why the culture at large and porn culture in particular fetishizes it. I think someone said above, sex does not happen in a vaccuum.

    You’d agree that we live in a patriarchal society, right? One in which gendered meanings are assigned to acts which are not intrinsically valued? In a culture that eroticizes male domination of women, I think it is supremely likely that most people think facial ejaculation is “fun” because of that power dynamic. My reluctance to understand how intentional ejaculation on a woman’s face fits into a feminist sexuality is not “ew, semen, gross!” I’ve had semen on my face before and it would not particularly concern me if a partner accidentally lost control and ejaculated on my face. My concern is with the intent. I have difficultly seeing why facials are intrinsically “fun” outside of erotic power differential. This concern is made all the more compelling by 92′s survey of her guy friends and my experience talking to my guy friends about it.

    Also, while it’s cool that you’ve found a way to interpret sexual acts as value-neutral. However, patriarchy doesn’t magically disappear just because you’re turned on. The cultural trappings of pornography do not evaporate because you think the acts depicted are sexy. Even personally, in the bedroom, they are only ever overridden, not erased. Even with avowedly feminist partners, even with female-pleasure-focused partners, I’ve still noticed the ways gender socialization works its way into sexual situations. It’s usually not in deal-breaker sorts of ways, but I’d argue that we’re a long way from sexual equality, and pretending like we’re in some post-feminist free sexual space is probably misleading.

    Additionally, the critique of porn largely rests on a criticism of the subconscious effect of pornographic images on users’ psyches and cultural constructions of gender roles, and on a criticism of the way pornography takes advantage of women (particularly structurally disenfranchised women). Those are the focal points, and until you’ve dealt with those primary concerns (discussed brilliantly in earlier parts of 92′s series), I don’t think you’ve really addressed the points being made.

    You also keep trying to make this a discussion of sex rather than porn. To repeat myself, what you do in the bedroom is pretty much your business. But for the record, I think empowering sex is enjoyable, and vice versa. If I don’t feel like I’m being respected, it’s probably bad (not very enjoyable) sex.

    It’s not about the acts themselves, it’s about what they mean.

    B

  114. Natalia Antonova October 25, 2008 at 1:35 PM #

    If you don’t feel degraded, right on, but I can’t believe you don’t see what’s degrading about having someone ejaculate on your face. You are, flat out, the ONLY person I’ve ever come into contact with who didn’t.

    I can’t even believe I’m commenting on this, but here goes:

    There are lots of people who do not believe that facials are degrading.

    For most, it depends on context.

    And if we’re talking about what our society does or does not deem degrading, it’s helpful to recall that our culture, however you wish to define it, is not monolithic. No culture is.

    Here’s just one example: there is an entire demographic out there made up of people who think that sex outside of marriage is evil. On the other hand, these same people believe that within the confines of marriage, pretty much anything goes. Facials, butt-plugs, you name it. So they would say, “sure, some guy masturbating to a porn movie of a woman getting ‘facialed’ is degrading, but it’s not the same when a loving husband does it to his loving wife.”

    Now, you can argue with these folk until you’re blue in the face, and that would be your right, but what you cannot claim is that there is one universally accepted view on facials or any other form of sexual activity.

    As much as sex-positive types want to pretend they do, sex acts don’t take place in a vacuum.

    Most sane people do not believe that sex acts take place in a vacuum.

    On the other hand, nothing that we do takes place in a vacuum. It’s the function of being human.

    I don’t think Sarah was being very friendly when she talked about your “rigid” views on sex, ND, but I understand where she’s coming from.

    Much like Sarah, I have a knee-jerk suspicion of people whose rules and boundaries regarding sex (we all have them, but they differ wildly) include a clause about what we can and cannot ask of one another. I believe that love and trust and even simple affection have a lot of illogical components to them, there isn’t one set of rules that works for every situation. There are times in a relationship where people take leaps of faith, and there are times when we shrink away and say, “no, I don’t want this,” and that’s simply the way that these things tend to ebb and flow.

    In terms of society, the problem isn’t women “taking it on the face” if they so choose, the problem is specifically sexist men being allowed to set the standard in the first place.

    If I defined my life in the way that sexist men define all of us, I wouldn’t have much of a life left, I can say as much.

    I think it’s interesting that the point of “exceptions” has been brought up here. We can’t afford to talk about them? But our daily life, to us, is one big exception. If you’re talking about something as personal as sexual preference, you are bound to speak in individualist terms.

    If you get shot, for example, there is a pretty standard definition for the experience. But when it comes to facials, as they have been discussed here, Sarah’s definition clearly differs from the definition of most people on this thread. And yes, it does count, or at least, it should. Because you cannot simply inhabit another person’s skin to the point that you know exactly what it is they get out from the experience.

    I think there is a distinct “Soviet” flavour surrounding this whole idea of “well, yeah, your sex-life might be great and all, but you’re the exception, so we can’t spend time discussing it.”

    It’s highly absurd, because if you’re going to think of these things in terms of the “collective good,” (a term flung at my father when they tried to bar him from marrying my mother, “for his own good,” of course), they can’t really be personal anymore, can they?

    There is a huge disconnect between the idea that “sex is something you choose to engage in personally” and “sex is something that should be done according to the principles of the movement/the Party/etc.”

    You can’t have it both ways.

    As I said, I agree that nothing we do takes place in a vacuum. But you’re not going to see a woman going “well, I must stop asking my boyfriend to ejaculate onto my face, because someone else is degraded by the exact same action, somewhere.”

    Well, you might, but such an action would be a little to self-hating/religiously guilty for my taste.

    On the whole, I see that a lot of anti-porn discussion is actually anti-kink. To that end, I’d like to direct you to <a href=”http://trinityva.livejournal.com/908324.html”?Trinity’s post on the subject of SM specifically. It’s very emotional and very well-written.

    And I’m sorry about the novel-length comment.

    P.S. I think Jensen is a creep.

  115. TrinityVA October 25, 2008 at 6:07 PM #

    I haven’t read the ginormous comment thread, so this may have been addressed already, but I just had to remark:

    “I have a suggestion for women who are dealing with a porn-using partner: start making out with other men until he stops. Tell him it isn’t cheating because there’s no penetration — and because you don’t feel anything for the other men — and that he’s lucky because you’re coming home to him. Tell him that, since it isn’t technically cheating, he has no right to try to tell you what to do. And then tell him he’s being a hysterical, whiny little bitch if he doesn’t just get over it, that he’s just jealous. I know, yeah right.”

    You mean the guy who a month or so ago went to a play party with me, felt under the weather and not well enough to play, and when I said I didn’t mind, exhorted me repeatedly to go find someone else to do SM with because he didn’t want me not to get to have my sexual fun?

    That guy?

    How exactly are you expecting him to react when I make out with someone else?

  116. TrinityVA October 25, 2008 at 6:34 PM #

    “As someone that was very deep into the porn viewer culture for a while (not a happy time in my life), trust me on this one: when a dude below the age of fifty is a frequent porn viewer, he’s probably looking at more than Playboy and static pictures that might be considered “erotic art”.”

    Not necessarily, Jenn. I dated someone who had huge piles of magazines and videos, and it was mainly Vivid sort of stuff, couples tapes, etc. Our actual sex life was considerably more kinky than the porn he viewed. I’m not going to deny that there aren’t people who are intensity junkies whose porn use becomes a problem, because clearly there are. But it’s just not true that that is everyone, including people big into being porn fans.

    A lot of the big porn fans I know have particular personal taste, and tend to collect things that reflect their specific fantasies. I’d have to say that I myself am weirder than most people with a porn collection, because I collect some of it because it shows what I enjoy, and some of it just because it intrigues me as a form of media, and I find the wide variation of things humans get off on intriguing.

  117. TrinityVA October 25, 2008 at 6:40 PM #

    “I think there is a distinct “Soviet” flavour surrounding this whole idea of “well, yeah, your sex-life might be great and all, but you’re the exception, so we can’t spend time discussing it.”

    It’s highly absurd, because if you’re going to think of these things in terms of the “collective good,” (a term flung at my father when they tried to bar him from marrying my mother, “for his own good,” of course), they can’t really be personal anymore, can they?

    There is a huge disconnect between the idea that “sex is something you choose to engage in personally” and “sex is something that should be done according to the principles of the movement/the Party/etc.”

    You can’t have it both ways.”

    This. Exactly. I am really tired of people deciding that others are derailing discussions because they are “the exception.” Think about radical feminism, itself, and the set of theories that allow people to call me, female, dominant, kinky, user of porn, an exception in the first place. Those theories are themselves an exception.

    So you have an exception — a very small subcultural component of feminism — telling another exception that she’s ignoring reality and that exceptions don’t count.

  118. RenegadeEvolution October 26, 2008 at 5:51 AM #

    heh, the marginalized telling the marginalized, eh Trinity?

  119. Angela Keaton October 26, 2008 at 6:35 AM #

    So the author of this post believes that the government has a right to steal and if his/her sexual sensibilities are offended that consenting adults should be locked in a cage or at least hounded into submission. Just wanted to be clear. Good to know that fascism can be found all over the politcal spectrum.

  120. Natalia Antonova October 26, 2008 at 11:11 AM #

    Oh, my apologies for messing up the link to Trinity’s excellent post. For anyone who’s interested, it’s here:

    http://trinityva.livejournal.com/908324.html

  121. gayle October 26, 2008 at 4:56 PM #

    “So the author of this post believes that the government has a right to steal and if his/her sexual sensibilities are offended that consenting adults should be locked in a cage or at least hounded into submission.”

    Yeah, that’s just what she said. *eye-roll*

    Back to the actual topic:

    “Men might not come out and say they conceive of using porn as a right, but their arguments in the face of their partners’ objections make it fairly clear that they see it that way.”

    Men are told repeatedly they do have a right to porn, by other men and by the porn industry. And of course we both know men don’t take our words as seriously simply because we’re women.

    I don’t think women should have to fight the porn industry in our personal relationships. That puts undo responsibility on individual women and I don’t see how they can be expected to fight an entire culture on their own.

    We need to fight the sexism, misogyny and violence in porn within the political area, with like minded men, as a group.

  122. gayle October 26, 2008 at 5:06 PM #

    Oh, let me just quickly amend something I just wrote.

    I do not mean to say women shouldn’t set their own boundries in their relationships. Of course they should! And if their partners won’t respect those boundries, they should be sent packing.

  123. Nine Deuce October 26, 2008 at 5:53 PM #

    Angela – Seriously? Is that what you took from this post? Where did I mention government at all? If you’d read around, you’d know I’m not for banning or criminalizing anything, but I don’t suppose that’s likely, since you’ve already decided you know everything.

  124. intelligentbydesign October 27, 2008 at 9:58 AM #

    92 – your statement that “Whether erotic images that aren’t dehumanizing can exist is a theoretical issue. As it stands, we live in a patriarchy. When women are seen to possess the same humanity men do, we can have that conversation. For now, it’s moot.” answer my questions on previous posts. Sorry if I didn’t ask it in a concise enough way. Thanks for the answer though – in thinking about things, I always find it helps to know where the persons thoughts being inspected stem from.

    In regards to one party being dominant in the bedroom, however, I’d like to point out that this is a two way street. As a male, I can honestly say that there is a certain sense of relief that comes from knowing that I’m not in control of the situation, but am merely a participant in the desires of someone I care about. Especially with all of the stigma that surrounds sexual behavior, it’s comforting to know that the other person is in control, and therefore able to make certain the experience is pleasurable. I agree that this sort of thing should never be expected of either party, and that it certainly can be used in a degrading fashion, however, I don’t think it necessarily stems from a point of being degraded, but rather may well hearken back to a basic human want to allow someone else to be in control. The same kind of notion applies to thinking that life was much easier when I was a child, because I didn’t have to worry about so many things. Sometimes, it’s reassuring to have someone else in control of a sexual situation, and therefore have the thoughts of “am I doing this right?” put out of ones head. Which leads me to believe that the sexual thinking that is currently a part of our cultural zeitgeist is much more properly railed against for being anti-humanist than anything else.

  125. Random Philosopher October 27, 2008 at 12:03 PM #

    Well this has been enlightening. Especially when Jenn tried to make a value distinction between pornographic art and eyerything else. It’s like that “high” and “low art” bullshit all over again.

    It’s also amusing to see porn being defined by 80 different people as something other than “art designed to arouse.” I guess then they would see that pornography is reactionary to the current state of human desires rather than proactive in creating them.

    Which would be inconvenient, what with us needing a scapegoat and all.

    It’s telling that you have an eight-part article on porn when, say, religion is easily both millions of times more influential in promoting misogyny and infiniely better regarded, yet doesn’t even make one entry.

  126. buggle October 27, 2008 at 4:55 PM #

    Anything that Sarah might have said that had value (which truthfully, I didn’t see here) was completely wiped out when she said that people who don’t use porn have boring sex lives, and have the same exact sex over and over. That is such a ridiculous, ignorant statement. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so annoying and judgmental.

    Gotta love how the pro-porn posse comes out to defend their precious, precious porn!!!! 9-2, you must have a much stronger stomach than I do, because this all makes me sick. But kudos to you for trying to explain this stuff.

  127. TrinityVA October 27, 2008 at 9:32 PM #

    “As a male, I can honestly say that there is a certain sense of relief that comes from knowing that I’m not in control of the situation, but am merely a participant in the desires of someone I care about. Especially with all of the stigma that surrounds sexual behavior, it’s comforting to know that the other person is in control, and therefore able to make certain the experience is pleasurable. I agree that this sort of thing should never be expected of either party, and that it certainly can be used in a degrading fashion, however, I don’t think it necessarily stems from a point of being degraded, but rather may well hearken back to a basic human want to allow someone else to be in control. The same kind of notion applies to thinking that life was much easier when I was a child, because I didn’t have to worry about so many things.”

    I think that’s true of a lot of people, men AND women. I think that people lose sight of the idea that sometimes submission is just about taking a breather, especially when they see women submitting. I think people get really hung up on their theories, and the idea that their theories have to be true, and stop listening to actual people, for fear of hearing a few too many stories like yours.

  128. gayle October 28, 2008 at 1:29 AM #

    “Gotta love how the pro-porn posse comes out to defend their precious, precious porn!!!! 9-2, you must have a much stronger stomach than I do, because this all makes me sick. But kudos to you for trying to explain this stuff.”

    Hi Buggle,

    That is what they do and what they’ve been doing for years. It’s best to ignore them.

  129. Sarah October 28, 2008 at 2:25 AM #

    buggle:

    “Anything that Sarah might have said that had value (which truthfully, I didn’t see here) was completely wiped out when she said that people who don’t use porn have boring sex lives, and have the same exact sex over and over.”

    So, having decided you can’t actually respond to my arguments, you go ahead and lie?

    Find me where I said “If you don’t use porn, you have a boring sex life”.

    Please find it. I dare you. You won’t be able to. I never said that. I don’t have much interest in talking to someone who has to outright lie to make their point.

    You’re one to talk about making ridiculous, ignorant statements, considering your entire statement there is ridiculous and ignorant, as I never said what you attributed to me.

    Though, I suppose, it’s much easier to hate people when you can lie to yourself about what they say.

    Ah, well.

  130. buggle October 28, 2008 at 3:44 PM #

    Yes, I generally do try to ignore, but sometimes things just irk me so much! It’s like people just don’t even WANT to get it, because that means having to take a painful look at themselves and the ways in which their bodies are responding to abuse. So they twist and squirm and do anything in order to maintain their own status quo. And they yell at people like nine and others, who ARE actually willing to challenge themselves and the status quo. They call us bullies and “slut-shamers”, and attack us, because they are so threatened by what we have to say. It’s sad, really. Fighting so hard to hang on to oppression.

    Sarah, I may have misunderstood what you said. I thought you were implying that without porn use, people would have the exact same sex over and over. Which is incorrect. I see now that you were saying that people who have “vanilla missionary” sex are boring. Gee, so sorry I misunderstood you. It is still a ridiculous and ignorant statement. You are still judging others who have different sexual practices than you do. And right after you complain about people here judging you for your sexual practices! Ah, hypocrisy.

  131. Sarah October 28, 2008 at 4:36 PM #

    Again, I said doing the same thing every day, over and over is boring.

    Tell me how it isn’t?

    Yeah, and right above, you defend your right to condemn and shame others for their sexual practices.

    You tell me I’m “oppressed”, and “fighting to hang onto it”?

    I’m sorry, but fuck you. What right do you have to make that judgement?

    You need to understand that your opinion is your opinion. I’ve stated repeatedly that what I say is opinion. All throughout this comment thread.

    You’re simply treating your opinion as fact, as if it’s irrefutable that my sex life is “oppressive”/”abusive”/whatever else, and that I just “refuse to see it”.

    I call you a slut-shamer because that’s what you’re doing. You’re being more patriarchal than you think. You’re sitting there, telling me that I’m having the wrong kind of sex, because you don’t approve, or because “good girls” don’t do that. Or telling me that I’m not a feminist, because I don’t make the choices you approve of.

    Bullshit, I say to that. Bullshit.

  132. Nine Deuce October 28, 2008 at 6:22 PM #

    Sarah – Say “fuck you” one more time and you’re banned. I’m getting tired of this insulting, repetitive nonsense as it is. I’ll not have you being verbally abusive.

  133. Gare October 28, 2008 at 7:39 PM #

    I havent got a snowballs chance on a melting greenland glacier of getting heard in this discussion, but I think ND listens and internalizes. I’ve seen definite progression in her thoughts, thats teachable.. thats growth.

    Men are like guys in AA… they need companionship and mentorship and accountability to stay on the straight and narrow. Millions do and its wonderful. And most had their playboys etc behind the bar, and that was manageble. But now, the internet has in effect come into the AA meeting and laid a dish of crack in the middle of it. Crack. Ive been in a halfway house. If you see crack, run! Thats how powerful it is to many men. One time, hooked.

    I tell you, if youre man has gotten hooked on this, hook him up spiritually. Its never too late gare

  134. intelligentbydesign October 29, 2008 at 9:05 AM #

    @TrinityVA “I think that’s true of a lot of people, men AND women. I think that people lose sight of the idea that sometimes submission is just about taking a breather, especially when they see women submitting. I think people get really hung up on their theories, and the idea that their theories have to be true, and stop listening to actual people, for fear of hearing a few too many stories like yours.”

    Much agreed. I’ve found it interesting that since I’ve visited this site and begun posting comments, I’ve found less and less discourse about points like this, especially from those who have (on previous comment boards) been so quick to throw me into the “pro-porn posse” because I have raised questions about what IS acceptable, as opposed to pointing out what is not. It seems no one would question whether it is acceptable for me to submit to the will of my partner here since I am a male. Although I’m sure there are those who would call me pussy-whipped because of it in other forums. To those who would – I’d rather be pussy-whipped than whip a pussy. It just sounds like more fun. =o) I do wonder though, in regards to porn, is what we need a feminist perspective and a feminist argument, or is it a humanistic argument? Granted, my own tendency towards wishing to see the woman in power in a sexual situation is gravely misrepresented in erotic entertainment (I’ve looked around and yet to find much). However, this does not, to me, make all erotic/sexual entertainment bad/misogynistic, but rather points out that the society in which we live has a bias towards masculine domination that is merely highlighted by the porn industry – which, on a consumer basis, is also male dominated, making the bias profitable. As such, I must ask – why is the argument framed against pornography, as opposed to being against the misogynistic overtones of the porn industry? Is it pornography that is a social evil (defined above as “anything that is exploitive”), or is it the bias of the sex industry towards exploitation of women? It may seem a fine point to some, but to me (as a guy who enjoys being what some would define as exploited) it seems quite pertinent.

  135. intelligentbydesign October 29, 2008 at 9:18 AM #

    @Gare “Men are like guys in AA… they need companionship and mentorship and accountability to stay on the straight and narrow.”
    Ouch! As an single male who has never cheated on a woman and has been friends with (and publicly fought with) a few self proclaimed feminists, your comment is flat out insulting. Especially since I’ve been to a few court-ordered AA meetings (DUI in my youth while coming home from a Christmas party) and even the leaders of the AA sessions I went to said (paraphrasing) “come to the court ordered sessions, learn from our stories, you might be just a kid who fucked up and not be an alcoholic”. I found them to be generous and good people who, on the whole, were less judgmental than your comment makes you appear. In case you are wondering, my perception of your comment as judgmental comes because your comment relates itself strictly to men, as opposed to “porn users” or some other term relating more directly towards people who use pornography for sexual pleasure.

  136. JenniferRuth October 29, 2008 at 12:48 PM #

    Here from the Carnival of Radical Feminists. Amazing post. But more amazing is your response to Sarah – how do you have the patience?!

  137. Sarah October 29, 2008 at 12:53 PM #

    Nine: Then tell your commenters to stop being insulting and verbally abusive to me.

    It’s a bit rotten of you to allow them to do something you chastise me for.

    I think I’m allowed to tell someone “fuck you”, when they sit there and lie about me and insult me.

  138. sjtindustries October 29, 2008 at 2:49 PM #

    Sarah – it seems to be trendy to address things to you, so I will…

    Anyway, don’t have much to say beyond I mentioned semen is like ammonia because, well, chemically speaking, it is. Alkaloids and all that, they have more than a few things in common – perhaps your man’s diet has been particularly good?

    Also, good work calling Jenn anti-feminst, she writes some really interesting stuff when angry…

    92 – Admirable work in responding to comments, I’d have just berated everyone with new post after post by now… then again that may be that whole male-aggressive thing… oh well…

  139. syndicalist702 October 29, 2008 at 7:31 PM #

    gare – In a nutshell, what you’re saying is that all men are driven by their impulses and unable to control themselves and that we all have addictive personalities and no mental or intellectual capacity to be held responsible for our behavior.

    You are one weak. derelict motherf*cker if you really believe that, just so you know.

  140. jo22 October 29, 2008 at 9:17 PM #

    Really sorry ND, I know this thread is not about ‘facials’, but I just wanted to ask Sarah if she’s actually asked her partner why he enjoys this (aside from her asking for it initially). I had a partner who enjoyed it (I asked him to too, for reasons I didn’t understand at the time but do now). He said, “I don’t know” for about two weeks (I’m good at pestering), before saying, “because it’s degrading I suppose.”

    Then I started asking, “why do you like the degradation thing?”

    “I don’t know….”

    Seriously, people don’t even want to know why they like certain things.

    ps. I know now that I liked it because I’d internalised and eroticised misogyny. Easy to do when it’s so encouraged. And it’s encouraged because? What do you think?

  141. buggle October 29, 2008 at 9:24 PM #

    Oh Rachel! I just went over to the site that you linked, and wow, holy crap! I just skimmed a few paragraphs of the first few responses you got, and wow. I can see why you ended up storming out of there- awful!

  142. gayle October 30, 2008 at 1:29 AM #

    Another reason why I don’t think women can fight this in the private sphere alone is because the goalposts keep moving.

    I’m old enough to know the prospect of jizz on your face and bleaching your ass were not things women had to contend with or even consider before they were “normalized” in contemporary Porn. Shit, shaving the pubic area was unheard of a decade ago, unless you were in the hospital about to give birth, and feminists were fighting that as a nonsensical and harmful medical practice!

    Porn is changing sexuality and all to the detriment of women. There was a good thread a few months back on Jezebel, which is in no way a rad-fem blog. The post was called “How Porn ruined Sex.” It’s worth looking up if you haven’t read it already.
    Some of the testimonials in the thread are heartbreaking.

  143. TrinityVA October 30, 2008 at 3:52 AM #

    “It seems no one would question whether it is acceptable for me to submit to the will of my partner here since I am a male. Although I’m sure there are those who would call me pussy-whipped because of it in other forums.”

    Yeah, most don’t — I’ve seen some radical feminist analysis where the theory is that if you’re a man who submits, you’re feminized, “taking the place of a woman.” While I do think that theme is common in femdom, and that why it is may well have to do with patriarchy, I’ve always found that explanation far too pat.

  144. miss_understood October 30, 2008 at 4:13 AM #

    http://www.alternet.org/story/104863/the_great_porn_misunderstanding

    EEP.
    a *few* interesting points, maybe, but mainly another “what about the menz!?!?!? angle,” accompanied by some opinin’ on like…why…on earth…anyone is still about porn (?)…I mean Michael Bader is getting TIRED OF IT, guys..c’mon now.
    And I will readily admit, that this is something that’s crossed my mind more than a few times…I mean, it’s a fucking complicated and exhausting subject to tackle, and there really is no clear right or wrong or solution or whatever else. That said, its remarkable just how quickly and unpleasantly one can be reminded of why it’s important to think and talk about just goin about their business!..when, ya know, you encounter some dude with his hands down his pants staring at you on the bus, which is, you know, a public place.
    IMO Bader and others who write from this angle would be better off if they at least *acknowledged* the ways in which porn seeps into everywhere else. Yes, most of us do know the difference between fantasy and reality, but there’s a lot of fuzziness in between…I mean, ask anyone in marketing, no?

    Anyway,
    I would love to hear your and your readers’ take!

  145. TrinityVA October 30, 2008 at 4:34 AM #

    Also, intelligentbydesign, I’ve seen a lot of that “you’re a pro-porny, let’s not listen to you” thing myself too. I mean, I’m unabashed in my strong disagreement with anti-porn feminism, with both what often passes for “radical feminism” on the ‘Net and much of the original radical feminist theory, so for me personally I don’t mind it. (I do think “sex pox,” one of the many nicknames I hear for us, is especially unfortunate, and somewhat creepy given that we live in the era of AIDS.)

    But I’ve seen it willy-nilly applied to people who are moderate on these issues and have very different opinions from, say, me… and that bothers me. It strikes me as very “Yer with us, or yer agin’ us,” and I don’t like that.

  146. TrinityVA October 30, 2008 at 4:39 AM #

    “That said, its remarkable just how quickly and unpleasantly one can be reminded of why it’s important to think and talk about just goin about their business!..when, ya know, you encounter some dude with his hands down his pants staring at you on the bus, which is, you know, a public place.”

    Miss Understood, can you explain why you associate this behavior with pornography? That strikes me as much more likely to be a creepy fetish than it does to be “oh, this guy over here on the bus thinks I’m a pinup.” There are people who do get off on making others uncomfortable, and I’d be much more inclined to think this person is a skeevy asshole who wanted to be seen and upset people than I would be to think this person thought such behavior was OK because “porn seeped into reality.”

  147. gayle October 31, 2008 at 11:57 PM #

    “ya know, you encounter some dude with his hands down his pants staring at you on the bus, which is, you know, a public place.
    IMO Bader and others who write from this angle would be better off if they at least *acknowledged* the ways in which porn seeps into everywhere else. Yes, most of us do know the difference between fantasy and reality, but there’s a lot of fuzziness in between…I mean, ask anyone in marketing, no?”

    Absolutely true. And let’s face it, some people don’t know the difference. There were men over at the most recent Robert Jensen Alternet thread bragging that they used porn like instruction manuals. Talk about bad sex! On the far more frightening side of the spectrum, try to find a book on serial killers that doesn’t say porn is a catalyst. There is all kinds of “fuzzy” in between.

  148. Rian November 5, 2008 at 10:38 PM #

    It seems to me that porn is mostly about men wanting to be the sexy sex. Men are very vocal about how women really have all the power “because men want sex with them and stuff”. As that is the only thing resembling power that women have been given, men covet it. Porn then is a celebration of masculinity, the more hypermasculine the porn, the more violent (but, porn being a paean to masculinity, the violence must be directed to the non-masculine, i.e. women). That article linked by miss_understood is a perfect example of this. Bader’s premise is that sex is inherently selfish and aggressive. If we realize that both traits are strongly linked to masculinity in our culture, we can conclude that sex = men.

    The one thing that really stands out to me in every discussion about porn and everyone I’ve known to use a lot of porn is the egotism. Women in porn, from the cheesiest semi-nude photo spreads to the vilest of hard-core, exist to tell (or more likely moan in orgasmic delight) men “YOU are the manliest of men!” This is the salve for the disappointment of a life not going according to the script, the reassurance that keeps people contented with their assigned gender roles.

    I also wanted to say something about reality and fantasy. I think there is a lot of disingenuousness about the claim that people can distinguish between the two. It is not a matter of whether one can sit back, reflect and then coolly pronounce that obviously something is fantasy; it is about the ability to distinguish in the moment, when critical thinking has been mostly suspended. Just as a rape victim may experience flashbacks of her attack during subsequent consensual sex, a porn user may experience flashbacks of porn images during sex (and obviously some people intentionally pull those memories up during sex, but it can happen spontaneously as well), and the emotions that go with it will be experienced again. These are the things that people must react to in an instant, and this is where the line between reality and fantasy will be tested. If Bader’s claim that one must “let go” and use one’s partner in order to maintain sexual desire is true, then those memories could very well determine the path the present experience takes.

  149. Amananta November 6, 2008 at 1:52 PM #

    To get to the point brought up in the very early part of your post – to me, and, to the extent that I view the US Constitution and the framers of the Bill of Rights, there are some “rights” that one has by the very virtue of existing – and in this case when I say “rights” I mean – some basic recognition of another person, another soul, if you will. I think in such a definition, every person has a right to not be murdered, tortured, starved when food is plentiful, unfairly punished, brutalized, sold as property.
    Porn, by even this basic definition, abrogates some very basic human rights or the women (and some men) depicted in it. Therefore porn is an offense against human rights.

  150. Amananta November 6, 2008 at 2:00 PM #

    Ah Sarah. How much more typically pro-pornie garbage spouting can you become? Walk into a discussion where porn is brought up, repeatedly refuse to answer the questions asked of you, repeatedly say anyone who doesn’t agree with you must be some terribly harpy in the bedroom, have a boring sex life, never have had sex, must only want the missionary position, etc., then cry that you’re being oppressed and silenced after trolling to the tune of 30+ posts.

  151. jo22 November 7, 2008 at 10:40 PM #

    @ Rian: Men are very vocal about how women really have all the power “because men want sex with them and stuff”. As that is the only thing resembling power that women have been given, men covet it.

    I love that. Thank you.

  152. Sarah November 11, 2008 at 2:00 PM #

    Ah, amananta, how much more typical anti-sex, slut-shaming can you get?

    For the record: others refused to answer the questions I directed at them, and saw fit to say that anyone (in this case me) that didn’t agree with them must be oppressed in the bedroom, abused, mistreated, degraded, etc.

    Oh look, it works both ways! Amazing.

    What questions didn’t I answer?

  153. Nine Deuce November 11, 2008 at 5:57 PM #

    You didn’t answer any of B’s questions.

  154. Sarah November 12, 2008 at 5:46 PM #

    Who is “B”? Also, which questions? Anytime someone asked me something, I addressed it, unless I missed it.

  155. Nine Deuce November 12, 2008 at 5:47 PM #

    If you don’t know who she is, how did you answer her questions? Look up and you’ll find them.

  156. Odium November 21, 2008 at 1:07 PM #

    Sarah, you are nothing more than a puppet, a Manchurian Candidate for the male-ocracy (and a particularly boring, imbecilic one too). How dare you glorify jizzpics and the monsters who view them? How dare you equate the abhorrent violations that are ‘facials’, anal and S&M with anything natural or humane? I’ll bet you won’t be so enthusiastic when your cockbearer decides that a night of dirty fun isn’t complete without felonious assault and battery. Fuck you, Sarah (how does it feel for the shoe to be on the other foot?).

    You claim that the posters on this blog are prudes…such is your blindness that you cannot see that the contrary is correct. I, however, am sex-negative, for reasons I don’t care to indulge. IMO, lust and all its associated acts are a danger to each and every one of us, as both perpetrator and victim. We will never attain any civilisation worth a damn until we are cleansed entirely of it.

  157. TR Felt November 24, 2008 at 12:21 PM #

    ***I, however, am sex-negative, for reasons I don’t care to indulge. IMO, lust and all its associated acts are a danger to each and every one of us, as both perpetrator and victim. We will never attain any civilisation worth a damn until we are cleansed entirely of it.***

    Me too – on the sex-negativity and the knowing that lust must be gotten rid of altogether. Thank you for this comment, Odium. I read all nearly 160 of them looking for just this thing.

  158. Dan November 26, 2008 at 1:30 AM #

    You know, I’ve always agreed with the majority of your opinions Nine, particularly in the porn department. But the importance of your brand of feminism has become strikingly clear to me now that I am employed in a nightclub. Not being much of a club-goer myself (unless we are talking folk-clubs) I didn’t really realize that women such as Sarah, and indeed, worse than Sarah, are actually the norm among young people today. Of course that is to say nothing of the men that attend these sorts of places, which, I must hand it to you, pretty much fit your mold of the typical man to the letter. I have apparently lived a sheltered life among my my vegan, activist and musician friends, and am just starting to clue in to how much of an uphill battle we have ahead of us. So keep it up!

  159. Konservo November 26, 2008 at 11:00 PM #

    I didn’t really realize that women such as Sarah, and indeed, worse than Sarah, are actually the norm among young people today. Of course that is to say nothing of the men that attend these sorts of places, which, I must hand it to you, pretty much fit your mold of the typical man to the letter. I have apparently lived a sheltered life among my my vegan, activist and musician friends

    Apparently.

    Don’t your “vegan, activist and musician friends” let you hang out with the hip crowd? That’s right, I’m talking about the statisticians. When you make claims about “the norm among young people today,” you are making a statistical inference about “young people” (this would be your target population) based on a sample population of the young people who frequent your nightclub.

  160. Dan December 1, 2008 at 1:29 AM #

    Maybe I am making inferences, but when I see little over a dozen university students participating in protesting violence against women, consumer culture, ect. in an afternoon, and then go to work and see upwards of three thousand walk in and out of that nightclub, and when I bear witness to the sort of cheap lovin’ that goes on there, I can’t help but feel a little bit helpless, you know?

  161. Screaming Lemur December 2, 2008 at 1:26 AM #

    Is this thread giving anyone else a headache? Sarah, are you even TRYING to see things from anyone else’s point of view, or just trying to convince them by saying (what sounds like) the same thing over and over? And I agree, B raised some good questions.
    I have a hard time with this subject because I would say, like B, that I’m somewhere in the middle on the porn argument. I agree that sex doesn’t occur in a vacuum, men do probably feel entitled to porn and that’s bullshit, and if you don’t want your partner perusing porn every 2 hours then they should respect that. I also think it’s possible to have feminist porn, that some porn actresses actually like their jobs, and that being open and imaginative with your partner is really important.
    But this thread, while some commenters on here are trying to have a constructive discussion, mostly seems to be going in circles. Just my opinion, which I do not view as absolute fact. ^_^

  162. Caitlin February 5, 2009 at 7:14 AM #

    I’m a bit late in this, but I wanted to speak to the question of why “taking one in the face” is degrading if semen isn’t disgusting and having a guy come inside you isn’t degrading.

    An analogy: open-mouth kissing involves an exchange of saliva. Unavoidable, though not the main point. I’ve heard it nicknamed “spit-swapping”. The saliva is not considered disgusting *in that context* and the exchange is not considered degrading.

    However, that same saliva *is* considered disgusting, and the act is considered degrading when instead of kissing, you spit on someone.

    The second act treats the person on the receiving end as a receptacle for bodily fluids rather than as a human being.

    As for the “if you were considerate of your partner, you’d do things with them that you don’t enjoy” argument, there’s a difference between doing something nice for someone and participating in or supporting activities that you find distasteful, degrading, or hurtful. If one’s partner were equally considerate, why would they want one to do things that are not only unenjoyable (absence of pleasure) but actively unpleasant?

  163. Aestas October 14, 2009 at 5:39 AM #

    This comment thread made my head explode at least 17 times. I know Sarah’s long gone, but I’m wondering how in the hell a person who has such a lack of genuine intimacy and mutual emotional connection and growth with her partner that she has to resort to kink in order to keep things from being “boring” could possibly claim to be more sexually “open” than us anti-porn feminists?

    Or how the desire to relate intimately with a man on an egalitarian, healthy plane could make someone “rigid?”

    From everything she said, it seems quite the opposite, really.

  164. Nico_D October 22, 2009 at 1:30 AM #

    This may just be a result of my political leanings (anarchist), but I tend to see feminism as a subset of the reaction to general human inequality. The real enemy is a coercive society which creates inequality as a necessary side-effect of it’s function. Outside of the societal context of capitalism, for instance, much of the negative end of porn disappears. IE, without the money, the only porn “stars” would be the genuine exhibitionist folks that do it for the enjoyment. The total amount of porn produced would shrink, and that which remained would be, without the implicit coercion of poor women degrading themselves to earn a buck, largely without cause for concern, at least in my view. Remove the money and a whole lot of negativity turns to vapor.
    That said, I realize that a lot of this is idealistic, and that dealing with the underpinnings of society is a whole hell of a lot tougher than raging against symptomatic expression of the underlying problems, but the results of changing the capitalist power dynamic seem worth-while.

    “The problem is not who has the power, the problem is power itself.”

  165. Alina November 26, 2009 at 8:12 AM #

    @crissymissy

    Well if ur bf is the jealous type then he should understand you better.

    Here I have a few tips for people that have a porn ´using´ partner.

    Start having cybersex with some1 at first it might be a bit uncomfy but in the end u prob will enjoy it and its pretty certain that its gonna make ur partner jealous.

    Start talking about hot looking guys buy playgirl or other mags with naked men in em or look on the internet for nude guys.

    Dont ever act by the fear that your partner might leave you if ur ´naggin´ at him for looking at naked women first of all he prob wouldnt accept it if it was the other way round and even if he wouldnt mind he needs to stop doing something that hurts his partner even if he cant understand why it is that whay.

    About many womens fear of being left alone by their partner, use the power you have as a woman if they are that pathetic to look at some pictures of women and might get aroused then think what power u as a real woman have over him,dont let him roll you over.In the end you are better of alone then with some1 that threats you bad ….really.And if he doesnt change soon enough he prob never will.

    I witness it around me boys threat women like crap they make excuses and just go on like that and about that not being prude crap and yeah porn is cool and the sexuall eliberation propaganda oh please Im sick of this bullshit that man use as an excuse and women aswell as an excuse why men take the piss because it is easier then to admitt that its wrong and it hurtfull.

    This whole porn generation that got women and men believe its okay to look at it even if you are in a relationship,is ridiculous.Might aswell make it trendy for a guy to have multiple sex partners whilst in a relationship cuz hey hes a guy and guys need that ……..but thats what happens when you have an empowered gender that has been allowed to do what they want for centuries.

    It depresses me sometimes to read the facebook updates of ppl that I know,with lines like; I hate men ,men take the piss, my bf is an asshole.Then the same people say I love so and so u mean the world to me even if a few hrs previous they described how their bf took the piss.

    And I am fairly convinced men like it when their partner call them an asshole ,I can see them referring to themselfs as such with pride,because what it really mean is ; Im a jerk I fuck up fuck around take the piss Im a playboy and the dumb bitch of gf eventually takes me back.

  166. Alina November 26, 2009 at 9:29 AM #

    How many of my readers have been in a relationship with a dude who thinks he’s entitled to use porn and that it’s your responsibility to “get over it”?. . . How many of my readers know someone who is struggling with the feelings of anger, betrayal, and inadequacy that a partner’s porn use has created?

    I have, it was during a long distance relationship wich gave my bf that Im still with an even better excuse to watch it.It went on for about 3 months and when I found porn on his pc for the 2nd time I wanted to leave him there and then and he begged me not to, he cried his wanker eyes out and I stayed.I took some rather radicall steps like installing k9 on his pc, its a programm who stops you from viewing mature content, I had several revenge acts on him I even cheated on him because of it and I dont feel bad for it I actually looking back am glad I done it even tho I done it b4 I found the porn the 2nd time.We live together since beg of july 2008 now and well he stopped looking at porn and he changed his opinion about it dramatically he sees it for what it is.When we watch a movie and there is some nude scenes or something sexuall he looks away so that I wont think he likes it…..and generally he flinches if there is like a porn advert on tv.But I am still very scarred by him looking at porn even tho it was in a long distance relationship and I think I will always be hurt by it.

  167. lizor November 27, 2009 at 2:00 PM #

    I read Michael Bader’s book on male sexuality recently and I was appalled. The upshot is this: Porn exists in a vacuum; men only don’t really like degrading women – you can tell because in degrading porn scenarios, the women like it; child molestation is overblown and isn’t all that traumatic; men like degrading porn because they believe women are weak and this is all down to their cold, tired, bitter and unavailable working mothers who in most cases are so cold and bitter that they drove the boy’s poor father to abandon his children.
    See? It’s not the poor misunderstood menz. It’s the cold and unavailable working mom’s at fault.

    Yep. Dr. Mike has ISSUES and I am so sorry to have paid money for his misogynist treatise.

  168. lizor November 27, 2009 at 3:17 PM #

    Oh – I forgot one more gem of insight from Michael Bader: The reason your middle-aged husband/partner lusts after the babysitter and why men consume porn involving as-young-as-possible girls is that they, poor dears, are unable to read human emotions, or at least when it comes to women. You see, the poor menz interpret visible signs of age as unhappiness and physical youth as happiness, and we all want to fuck a happy person, right? So save up for that surgery gals, because it makes no difference how content or ecstatic you may be with your life, your guy will always see the teen, even if she’s drugged and suicidal, as “happier” than you.

    Here’s a telling quote from the article linked above;

    “In porn, everybody is turned on and, therefore, everybody is happy. Sexual arousal is what we call a “marker,” an unconscious symbol, of the fact that the women are not hurt. It reassures the male viewer he can temporarily escape from the worry and guilt about women that typically haunts him and chills his libido. Such worry and guilt are not — as Jensen would have it — a sign of his loving humanity, but his neurotic feelings of obligation. Men grow up in our culture with two special psychic burdens: (1) they feel inordinately responsible for their mothers and later, for women, and (2) they feel especially disconnected and lonely. In regard to the first burden, it’s extremely common for men to talk about their guilt and resentful feelings of responsibility for making women happy, feelings that become exacerbated when they feel that they can’t ever succeed in these efforts. Men primarily want women to be happy, not degraded, but feel that somehow they’re supposed to be omnipotently responsible for making this happen”

    Got it? So men want us to be happy and not degraded which is why they want to perform ATM and then come in our faces, all the while telling us what a piece of trash whore we are.

    And they claim to have the upper hand when it comes to logic.

  169. Alina November 29, 2009 at 6:57 AM #

    @ lizor

    I think men wanna cum on women faces because it is wrong and because they are desensitized by porn and therefor need a more and more degrading experience for it to feel perverted.

  170. Alina December 1, 2009 at 8:45 AM #

    I wanna mention that I am pretty proud of the way I handled the situation with my boyfriend,it took me alot of courage though many times I was scared that my revenge acts will make him leave me but then again hurting him the way he hurt me and making him understand and feel what I felt was more important to me then wether he stay or leaves.

    I hate the thought that many women just accept it or might even think something is wrong with them by not liking that their partner looks at porn.That they dont even occure the though that hey its not right for ur partner to look at naked spread legged girls.

    Too bad in our society most people have polluted themselves so much that they can not distinguish or even understand why porn is not something good.

  171. Alina December 1, 2009 at 9:38 AM #

    So you have an exception — a very small subcultural component of feminism — telling another exception that she’s ignoring reality and that exceptions don’t count.

    Exception,small subcultural component!?!? I love to disagree with that on that 1,I am from Austria and I share the same beliefs as other Feminists here wich I assume are american.This culture isnt small at all ,even on the internet you will find tons of feminist websites,blogs that share our opinion.

  172. A Dude February 6, 2010 at 4:18 AM #

    Its been a while since I last read this blog… An excellent post, I love the investigation into what people view as rights. The sex industry doesn’t rely on dudes feeling its their right, or even that its a good thing. They rely on the desire of the dude to watch porn outweighing any guilt associated with it. Arguing with dudes who think its their right is pretty pointless as they must be very stupid and will convince themselves its ok any way they want. The only way I can see you changing their behaviour is to keep pointing out the reality of what they’re watching, as you do very well. The nastiness of the porn industry will eventually leave a bad enough taste in the mouth. Tell ‘em to try jerking off into their own faces to get the full porn experience.

  173. isme February 6, 2010 at 3:02 PM #

    “Arguing with dudes who think its their right is pretty pointless as they must be very stupid and will convince themselves its ok any way they want.”

    Yes and no. It’s tempting to assume stupidity on the part of anyone who holds a different viewpoint than you, but masses of otherwise intelligent people across the world have deceived themselves on moral and other issues since time immemorial.

    Especially when it is the viewpoint of the culture they grow up in…by definition, the mainstream viewpoint is more powerful.

  174. A Dude February 7, 2010 at 3:40 PM #

    They may not be stupid, quite true. Arguing with dudes who think its their right is pretty pointless as they will convince themselves its ok any way they want.

  175. Alina February 8, 2010 at 11:36 AM #

    @ Sarah well if you ever come back here to read this….I think your last posts have been some time ago how is it now with you and ur bf?

    And do you just willfully back up all the degrading and morally wrong stuff your bf does, because it is easier for u to cope with then admitting to yourself that he is a wanker literally and metaphoricly for looking at other women?? I mean as soon as u lie to yourself that he isnt doing nothing wrong then it doesnt hurt u as much perhaps? If ud admitt to yourself that it is wrong and painfull to u then u would have to act upon it argue about it and might even have to end the relationship, I think you are just choosing a less complicated way of dealing with the shit ur bf does……..I cant blame you that much though but if Im right I wish u had the courage o actually deal with it…….also I feel sorry for you Sarah

    I found it tragic and funny at the same time how you assumed that Nine must of misunderstood you cuz she referred to your “taking one in the face ” as unbelievable u assumed she must of thought u ment hit in the face and then you called it what is in your view a more sensitive way of putting it “facial” oh jeez Sarah,Sarah do you listen to yourself or read what u write????

  176. Leonorah February 17, 2010 at 4:59 AM #

    I know there are a million comments already but I just wanted to put my own viewpoint out there in case you might read it.

    I am a woman, and I consider myself a very serious feminist. My boyfriend watches porn sometimes, and I support it. Sometimes we watch it together. I read erotica, watch sex scenes in movies, and masturbate to it often. We are both extremely sensitive to the feelings and needs of the other person. It would hurt my boyfriend deeply to feel like a natural part of his sexuality is harmful or that people were being raped in the porn he watches.

    I wouldn’t want any man telling me I couldn’t masturbate because it hurt his feelings on some level. That’s unfair, and condemning what your partner enjoys is a mean, small-minded thing to do in a relationship.

    I think you’ve made some horrible accusations and generalizations in your article. But let me leave you with some real facts that might open up your extremely limited view on porn.

    There are women (and men) who enjoy creating porn of themselves and having people watch it, and are even empowered by this choice.

    There are men who watch porn who care about the well being of their girlfriends and the women in the porn.

    Many women watch porn.

    Men and women will almost all at some point have sexual fantasies about people other than their partner, most will probably masturbate to these fantasies, and there is nothing emotionally abusive about that. In fact, from experience I know embracing your partner’s sexual life in its natural fullness can be a very intimate and rewarding thing to do.

    This isn’t about rights. This is about all of the different things that different people find fulfilling, emotionally or sexually, and tolerating it, maybe even supporting it. I could never be happy with a partner that stifled the sexual life that feels so important and natural to me, and I think many men feel the same way.

    You have no right to judge the character and relationship of me and my boyfriend because you have some screwed up idea about porn.

    • Nine Deuce February 17, 2010 at 5:27 AM #

      Masturbation and porn use are not synonyms. Porn use is not a “natural” part of anyone’s sexuality, it is a conditioned proclivity. If you are OK with porn, then let him use it, use it yourself, whatever, but let’s not pretend that no harm occurs in the making of porn. My “screwed up ideas about porn” come from the fact that it does, indeed, cause social harms. If you have not directly suffered from them, good for you, but many people have, and the idea that you think the fact that you like to wank to porn matters more than other people suffering ought to embarrass you. You aren’t telling me anything I do not know and have not addressed elsewhere, and your tone would be insulting if it weren’t so hilariously presumptuous.

  177. Alina February 22, 2010 at 9:14 AM #

    @Lenonorah

    Ohhhh no you didnt,

    So you class yourself a serious feminist and yet you dont hate porn…….hmmm do u know where the word porn comes from?And you must admitt that porn is nothing else or better then prostitution infront of a camera?So how you and your doubtfull feminist principles accept that, is beyond me.

    Like ND said porn and wanking are not something synonyms…..ppl dont have a problem with man wanking but with the fact that some choose to look at porn.If you dont mind your bf watching porn if it doesnt hurt you and u watch it yourself( I wonder do u ever look at naked men with their junk out? just curious and wonder if ur bf would mind that ,or are u looking only at videos with man and woman involved?)then well okay thats what you do.You cannot however say that there is nothing wrong with porn,say that we have screwed up ideas about porn….

    About u trying to tell ND a few “new things” about porn as she is generalizing as u claim and has an extreme closed up view on it all;

    Women like u are millions outthere that think porn is okay its not abusing,it is not morally wrong and the women that participate in porn are empowered and happy…..I find it funny how you honestly thought ur telling us something new…jeez u havent red all the commens have u?And the oh so typicall and yet annoying:”most ppl will fantasize about some1 else then their partner” crap…….thats crap cuz if u love some1 u should have the decency to stop fantasizing over any1 else.What you said Leonorah I heard it all 100 times b4 and its NOTHING NEW,still annoys me as always though.If you dont mind ur bf imagining himself having sex with another women and lusting after her,then either u dont love him,u dont love yourself,u are brainwashed,or stupid.

    News for u not every1 fantasizes and not every1 looks at porn,Im afraid it is you and not us that has a very backwarded way of thinking about it all u remind me of the muslim women that praise the way they r threated and that they have to hide their hair and that they are not allowed to make decisions ec.

  178. sneeky bunny February 23, 2010 at 7:00 AM #

    Alina, you are absolutely correct in you assertion that not every one fantasizes about some one other that their partner, but you are naive if you think that they are in the majority, and presumptuous to assume that those that do are “stupid”, “brainwashed”, or incapable of loving themselves or others.

  179. Alina February 24, 2010 at 11:01 AM #

    @ sneeky bunny

    Im getting a lil tired of getting misunderstood on here…..arrrrr….saying that english is not my native language its german so maybe thats y

    Uhmmmm I did not say that the majority doesnt fantasize about other people……and I didnt say that if u do fantasize about some1 else u dont love yourself or your partner or ur brainwashed or stupid…I said if u accept your partner fantasizing about some1 else ex.porn women then u are the things I mentioned above…and I stick to that theres prob more reasons to it but I cant know all of them…Do u get me now?

    Oh and I am really far from being naive.

  180. sneeky bunny February 25, 2010 at 6:16 AM #

    @Alina:
    I have very fond memories of my years in Germany! I lived outside Stuttgart, and I wish I still had the language, but you know, use it or lose it. :)
    I am sorry to have misunderstood you, but what you in fact said was:
    If you dont mind ur bf imagining himself having sex with another women and lusting after her,then either u dont love him,u dont love yourself,u are brainwashed,or stupid.
    Are you saying that it is only wrong for a man to fantasize about some one other than their partner, but fine if a woman does? That hardly seems fair.

  181. Alina February 25, 2010 at 11:01 AM #

    @ Sneeky Bunny

    Germany is in fact a beautifull country I have been there a few times but I however come from Austria :-))(small country next to germany) we here also speak german.

    What I said wasnt gender related its obviously wrong if man or woman would fantasize in a relationship about any1 else then their partner….I didnt emphasize that 1
    though, because I was referring to Leonorah´s case.

  182. sneeky bunny February 25, 2010 at 6:43 PM #

    Where about in Austria? My family has friends there. My parents visit every other year, but it’s been many years since I was able to.
    So you yourself, have never fantasized about some one other than your partner? If so, you are very strong minded. Be that as it may, you are in the minority, so it doesn’t seem logical to assume that those who have fantasized or are aware that their partner has fantasized about some one else are “stupid” or incapable of loving themselves or others. Because think about it: that’s an awful lot of people. All of them stupid? All of them wastelands of internal self loathing? It doesn’t seem reasonable.

  183. Alina February 26, 2010 at 8:30 AM #

    I live in Vienna,are u American?

    No I never fantasized about anyone other then my partner,in the past 9 years ( I am 24 now,but no I didnt have the same bf since I was 15).I find it easy to not fantasize about anyone else cuz I just am really happy with who I am basically I got what I wanted,I am satisfied.

    Yeah I think that if you are aware of your partner fantasizing and you dont do anything about, it i.e leave em or ask for a dramatic change then u are stupid or u dont love yourself or your partner or u suffer from a very low self esteem and etc….If I am so wrong then how comes that million of women and I assume men have major issues with their partner looking at porn and or fantasizing about some ppl?And yeah even though you say the majority does fantasize ( I am not sure how right u are)that doesnt change the facts,look if u truly love someone and u know their imagining fucking some1 else then cmon do the math ….
    for 1 it certainly will hurt u if you try to deny it to yourself thats a different thing but it will be very painfull still…..so why accept such a behaviour? fear that your partner will leave you?perhaps being brainwashed into thinking that its okay maybe being too stupid too realize whats up or having such a self low esteem that u would take anything just so your partner doesnt leave u because he/she are too good for u anyway.
    Just because alot pf ppl accept or dont fight something doesnt mean its right!!Loads of ppl used to be okay about black people being slaves or about jewish peple being gased and all the other horrible things that have been accepted by a large amount of people….Now I hope I didnt offend anyone with my comparation.

    What I wanted to make clear I still find it extremely wrong to look at porn even if u dont fantasize about the people in the pics/videos….

  184. sneeky bunny February 27, 2010 at 9:31 PM #

    My father was in the military as was my brother. Both spent the majority of their careers in Europe. As a matter of fact, my niece and nephew were sent to the states for the summer a few years back since they were losing their English.
    I think you have fallen victim to the mistake of the universal. We all use our personal experiences and expectations as a base line for navigating the behavior of others, and it is very easy to go a step further and consciously or unconsciously, assume that what we find optimal for ourselves is the correct way to be.
    You never fantasize about anyone other than your partner. I have never, ever fantasized about anyone that I am with, or have been with, or might like to be with. Indeed, not when I had my first fantasy at age nine, and not to this day. That’s not what gets me off, and it has nothing to do with how I feel about a given partner.
    While I think your surmised explanations for why someone might accept their partner’s fantasy life have merit, I would like you to consider an alternative one. Perhaps it is because they realize that it is fantasy and not reality. For example I have a lover that finds the thought of pre-op MTF people (or chicks with dicks to be vulgar) very compelling and that reliably gets them off. This doesn’t mean that in real life they would like to experience that nor do they secretly yearn that one morning I would wake up having grown a penis. When presented with that hypothetical, as a matter of fact, they responded with a shudder and the sound “GAH!!”. It is a fantasy. It is not real. It has nothing to do with how they feel about me so I am not bothered by it. It works both ways. My partners are not threatened by what goes on in my head while I attempt to reach orgasm, because those images are fantasy, not reality, and have nothing to do with them, or my feelings for them.
    Sex and love, as I am sure you are well aware, are messy and not black and white. I am not stupid. I do not have low self esteem. I do not fear losing my lovers. I am not brainwashed ( I have issues with porn, for example, on the basis of it exploiting the performers etc. but do not find its use personally threatening). Reality gives me more than enough to deal with regarding my feminism and autonomy as a person.
    So in conclusion, I think some people accept that others have fantasies for the negative reasons you list and some accept and indulge in fantasy for the reasons I have presented. In fact I might go so far as to turn your argument on its head, and posit that some people might be threatened by their partner’s internal life because they have low self esteem and fear that they are not enough or have problems with jealousy. Everybody’s different.

  185. Alina March 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM #

    Well,well. Funny enoguh my boyfriend told me that he is not jealous of celebs and that he didnt minded that his ex´s fancied some famous person whilst with him.To wind him up after he told me that (and cuz I was bored or so,lol) I made it out like i fancy Cristiano Ronaldo and mentioned him every now and again nothing much didnt have posters or pictures of him …and guess what my bf became super jealous and now he cant stand seeing him on tv or whatever and we actually had serious fights about it even though he claimed he never minded his past gfs fancying some1 else then him.
    Also I looked at naked dudes, again only to wind him up and he fucking hated it and I didnt even say that I fantasised about them.

    I dont think you got to have a low self esteem to feel thretened by what goes on in ur partners head…I am rather confident and also very confident in my looks and yet I wouldnt accept it…plus I think Im so great and everything that really I am enough for him or any1 that would wanna be with me…

    And regarding that Fantasy is accepted because it is not true,would you accept it if your partner would imagine himself or get turned on by pictures of kids or kids porn?? I mean it wouldnt be real right…and perhaps he wouldnt actually have sex with a kid in real life….Yeah I dont think much of that thing that fantasy isnt real….

    I red somewhere here on this site an interesting question that goes something like that; why do ppl always mention that porn or fantasies arent real? and that for example you dont justify looking at Harry Potter even though its also clearly not real.

    Indeed sneeky bunny you do not seem stupid to me,but why dont you think that u might not find porn threatening, because you might been lead into thinking its okay,as its mainstream and practically everywhere.Hence why you are desensitised to it?And slowly but surely u got used to see naked boobs in movies adverts etc. so now it doesnt mean that much to you …(well if u dont see it for what it is).

    They do this kind of thing with soldiers where they prepare them mentally for killing with simulations games creepy songs and all sorts included in their daily training, and desensitize them to it…..you can almost get desensitised to anything and when millions of people do it like with porn then its seems normal and acceptable.Also porn viewers get desensitized more and more and need ever more fucked up stuff…

  186. sneeky bunny March 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM #

    Well Ronaldo certainly is pretty, but why would you engineer a situation that led to “serious fights” with someone you love? Just for fun? If it was by way of educating him on your feelings of the effect of porn on a relationship, then you seem to have achieved your desired results, although I think you could have gone about it in a less contentious manner. But that’s just me.
    I didn’t say that your feelings on this topic arose from low self esteem. I cannot surmise from our brief internet encounter what is in your head or heart. I said that *some* people may feel threatened by their partner’s internal life due to feelings of inadequacy and problems with jealousy. My goal here is to get you to think about this topic in a more nuanced way, not to convince you that you should change how you personally navigate your love life.
    You’re kiddie porn argument is an example of a circular reasoning. Your conclusion is the same as your premise.
    I have problems with porn, but they involve the real world effects on its participants and upon our culture (specifically western culture) as a whole, as well as being concerned about the mainstream objectification of women, because I see these as social justice issues. As I explained in my earlier post, I do not feel personally threatened by someone else’s fantasy life.
    I agree that the condition of “normal” is fungible, and thus possible to change which is why I am a feminist. I want to effect change upon society to make it more equitable. I’m afraid that that may make me less than radical, but I can live with that.
    Again, I must stress that I am not interested in trying to change how you conduct your life. I only ask you to perhaps broaden your view and consider that what is optimal for you may not be the case for every single person. We are all different, as demonstrated by your fantasy life versus mine for example. And we are just two out of billions.

  187. Alina March 2, 2010 at 11:45 AM #

    I didnt think u assumed that I have a low self esteem,I was more just pointing out that I do not have confidence issues.

    Also I dont think that I misunderstand you at all,basically you think that I push my own idea onto others and wont accept other things,but its like Id say cheating is wrong and then ud tell me yeah well thats my view.But its not an opinion that I just got over night,I see it in my friend circle and around people that I know.Do you know women that have a porn abusing partner and are very unhappy about it but wont do nothing out of some sort of fear?I know plenty unfortunetaly.

    After all, your main argument is that fantasy isnt real….also I dont agree to that….I think its very real.It sticked out for me that you said you have lots of *real issues* to deal with rather then whats going on in your bfs head.So maybe you have enough on your plate as it is and you kind of ignore what your partner is fantasizing about….if so then your feelings towards the whole thing arent natural,what if u had alot less issues and the time to think into your partners fantasizing.

    I dont think that you want me to change my opinion,I see this as a discussion you bring your points and I bring mine.

    In a nutshell we argue about what is morally wrong for some and not,my problem isnt accepting other peoples opinions, because I dont think it is really their opinions cuz I think that they have been extremely influenced by pop culture, media, the patriarchic society into having alot less morals.

    Regarding the kiddie porn,so why didnt you answer?would you mind ur partner getting off by looking at lil naked kids and/or fantasizing about them?since fantasy isnt real and all that?since in real life he wouldnt touch kiddies?

  188. sneeky bunny March 2, 2010 at 8:16 PM #

    I have to say that I find your self confidence as a young woman really gratifying. It makes me so happy to see how strong and passionate women of your generation can be. You are going to change the world for the girls coming up behind you, as the women before me did, and as I hope that I have done.
    That being said, you are still falling victim to the assumption that what is an ideal situation for you must be *the* ideal situation for everyone. To support your premise you are moving the goal posts. For example, you bring up cheating, which is another topic all together. At the risk of a derail, let me assure you that I do not support cheating.
    I feel for the friends you mention who are in bad relationships. Perhaps with your help they can move on.
    Again my point is that fantasy is an issue for *you*. That is a totally legitimate position on your part. I have no desire to change your mind. It is a deal breaker for *you*. However, I would ask that you afford me (and by extension many others) the same courtesy. I indulge in fantasy. I am not now, nor have I ever been, bothered by the fantasy life of any of my lovers, male or female. Nor have they been bothered by mine. We self select our partners and if someone had a problem with my fantasies, I would not be with them, just as you would chose not to be with someone like me.
    You said:
    my problem isnt accepting other peoples opinions, because I dont think it is really their opinions cuz I think that they have been extremely influenced by pop culture, media, the patriarchic society into having alot less morals.
    I ask that you consider how breathtakingly arrogant that statement is. You are not a mind reader, nor are you the final arbiter of what is or is not moral.
    My opinions and decisions regarding how I conduct my life publicly as well as privately, have come to me through thought, examination, life experience and education. I am not a brain washed puppet of the patriarchy, and I have enough respect for others to assume the same of them. Even if, and stay with me here, we disagree.
    I repeat and expand my answer. You’re kiddie porn argument is an example of a circular reasoning. Your conclusion is the same as your premise, and thus cannot be addressed logically to any effect.

  189. lizor March 2, 2010 at 9:11 PM #

    Hey, I know it’s been a year and a half, but

    @Rian

    “I also wanted to say something about reality and fantasy. I think there is a lot of disingenuousness about the claim that people can distinguish between the two.”

    Damn right there is. Besides the fact that’s there is a very measurable difference between a fantasy and a MOVIE, this wrongful assumption that people can differentiate between fantasy and reality gets trotted out by libertarians all the time to defend hate speech.

    If such an ability was an inherent human trait how in the hell would the advertisers sell us all of this useless crap we’re buying?

  190. sneeky bunny March 3, 2010 at 3:16 AM #

    Lizor:
    I think you may be confusing fantasy with wish fulfillment as regards to advertising. It is a subtle but important distinction.
    Would you care to weigh in on my conversation with Alina about sexual fantasy? Another view point might be very valuable.
    To sum up: Alina has never fantasized about any one other than her partner. She extrapolates from her personal experience that this is the only acceptable form of sexual fantasy. I disagree, and while in no way suggesting that she should change how she conducts her love life, have asked her to consider that others may vary in their erotic inner lives, and that is ok. To be clear we are not discussing porn per se.
    I would be interested in your opinion if you would care to share it.

  191. Alina March 3, 2010 at 1:08 PM #

    quote;
    sneeky bunny
    March 2, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    I have to say that I find your self confidence as a young woman really gratifying. It makes me so happy to see how strong and passionate women of your generation can be. You are going to change the world for the girls coming up behind you, as the women before me did, and as I hope that I have done.

    I certainly like to read that…:-)

    Okay would you tell me why it doesnt bother you if your partner imagines themselves having sex with some1 else then you?Do you have limits like as per say he would imagine having sex with your best friend or I dunno perhaps some woman you are jealous of?Also can you be sure he doesnt fantasize about women that would probably make even *you* jealous/angry?

    quote; Lizor
    Damn right there is. Besides the fact that’s there is a very measurable difference between a fantasy and a MOVIE, this wrongful assumption that people can differentiate between fantasy and reality gets trotted out by libertarians all the time to defend hate speech.

    If such an ability was an inherent human trait how in the hell would the advertisers sell us all of this useless crap we’re buying?

    Yeah I agree.

  192. Immir March 4, 2010 at 7:58 AM #

    Rightchous poetry!

  193. sneeky bunny March 5, 2010 at 6:28 AM #

    Alina, sorry to have taken so long to respond, I’ve been a little busy.
    I have given your question a lot of thought as I wanted to give you an honest answer. I think your question is more about jealousy than fantasy necessarily. Jealousy is a deep and often physical response to a perceived threat. For me, some one else’s thoughts don’t meet that criteria. Why would I feel threatened by something that isn’t really happening? For example the football star you mentioned. Is it even remotely possible that you would even have the opportunity to sleep with that person? No. So why waste energy worrying about something that will never happen? For me, it’s no more real than if my girl or boy friend got off thinking about unicorns.
    This is not to say that I have never been jealous. I have experienced it in situations where I have allowed myself to be particularly emotionally vulnerable and the object of my jealousy has always been in possession of a characteristic that I perceive as very valuable and which I feel I am lacking. For example being tech savvy, or successful in an artistic career. It rarely, if ever, is a sexual thing. I think things like, “They’re so cool and smart! I will suffer by comparison in my lover’s eyes, and they will run away with this super cool smart person!” The idea of being abandoned by some one you love is terrifying, and calls into question everything you believe about yourself, so the reaction (jealousy) can be equally strong. And destructive. When I have these feelings, rather than lash out and put my lover on the defensive, I have found ( through trial and error) that the best thing to do is talk about it with them, and examine why I feel afraid. There have been times in my life that I was able, through exploring the topic with my partner, to let those bad feelings go and been reassured of their commitment to me. There have been times that those discussions have led to realizing that it was time to part ways. That’s life.
    So I guess what I’m saying is if I feel threatened by a real person in my real life, I talk about it with my lover and try to determine if my fears are justified. If someday I come home and find a unicorn (or a pretty, pretty football star) in my kitchen, that will be the day to deal with it. Until then, for me, what goes on in people’s heads is just that: In their heads and not real life. I hope that makes sense. And again, I must stress, that this is what works for me, but it is not the only way to be.

  194. Alina May 11, 2010 at 3:12 PM #

    @sneeky bunny,

    It took me 2 months to answer and I assume u r not as intrigued but however I am still gonna reply.

    I hoped that u will play the “u can never meet the ppl out of ur fanatsies card” and u did!!:-)))

    I like that because I actually did Meet Cristiano Ronaldo in Ibiza in 2009 in the club Pacha in the vip section and we exchanged some intensive eye contact…….nothing more though he was with a girl and I was with my bf.
    I assume by the way he intensively gawked at me that he was interested.

    B4 u might think that I am blowing my own trumpet or something similar I wanna point out that I seem to attract the opppoiste sex quite a bit as I seem to have all those features that r nowadays considered attractive in the Mainstream.

    I dont undertsand your answer to my question if u would mind ur bf fantasising or getting aroused by kids!!!! I wanna be nice and dont wanna accuse you of kinda talking around the question.
    But I would like a yes or no answer.

    Newly I discovered a forum for pedophiles and I red their comments.
    I have to say that they have changed the way I look at things,the world has just gotten much more horrible.
    And a few of them actually in a desperate attempt to get help tell their tales how they viewed normal porn for a while (years) and at some point it just didnt do the trick anymore so they ended up looking at kids porn wich then led some of them to abuse their own kids.Most didnt start as werent pedophiles at the beginning,and the kids porn gave them those dangerous ideas.I didnt post the name of that forum because I wanna avoid for it to get lots of hits.

  195. sneeky bunny May 12, 2010 at 9:20 PM #

    I’m glad to hear from you! Our lives have gotten pretty busy haven’t they?
    I did not, in fact, if you care to re read my post, play the “you can never meet the people out of your fantasies” card. What I asked was if it was remotely possible that you would have the opportunity to *sleep* with this football star. Smoldering glances across a crowded room not with standing, you did not actually have carnal knowledge of Mr. Ronaldo. Nothing actually happened did it? And as I said, if I were in a similar situation, I would not waste my emotional energy on something that didn’t happen, and was unlikely *to* happen.
    To put your mind at rest regarding my position as to pedophilia, I am 100% against it in all forms. It is evil, and I’ve seen its warping, scarring, ruining effects. I have personal experience in this area (as do far too many others) and I don’t know how you have the strength to read the sites you mentioned. I know I could not.

  196. Alina May 14, 2010 at 2:01 PM #

    quote sneeky bunny

    Is it even remotely possible that you would even have the opportunity to sleep with that person? No. (u ment Ronaldo)

    LoL there you have it and believe me it was very possible,I have flirted in my life and like most people I can tell when some1 gawks at you and finds you attractive.You ruled out any possibility and even thouh nothing happened the possibility was there……..it was there with a passion.

    Regarding the pedophilia well I cam across it checking out what Lolicon and Toddlercon ment(I wish i didnt know now) 1st I wanted to troll that pedo forum from hell but I didnt have the nerves and I was so shocked and disgusted that I couldnt.

    And that to any1 who reads this those pedophiles(many became pedophiles after viewing child porn) think kids actually enjoy having sexuall expereinces with adults, cuz thats how it is presented in the kid porn that they are watching.
    (Also seen in the Lolicon and Toddlercon wich is anime porn with characters that look like children or even toddlers…..and its not even illegal)

    Alone going by whats happening in that forum one would think that porn has a fucking horrendous affect and changes the sexuality of people………

  197. sneeky bunny May 16, 2010 at 10:34 AM #

    Sigh. You saw him once. You stared at each other in an appreciative manner. Nothing happened at that time. No phone numbers exchanged. No arrangements made for sneaking off for a quickie. You did not even have a conversation. What happened is you got zoomed by a man (accompanied by his date no less!) who assumed due to his celebrity status and gender that any female in his vicinity was potentially his for the taking. How flattering. And as nothing *actually* happened, and it is unlikely that anything *would* have (you were there with a date, would you have ditched them to run off and snog/shag a celebrity in a broom closet? I assume you have more integrity and hope you’d have better manners than that) and even more unlikely that this opportunity would arise again, if you were my girlfriend I would not waste my time getting upset about it. What I might get upset about is Mr. Ronaldo’s misogynist assumption that every woman in the room was a potential opportunity for a blowjob.

  198. Alina May 27, 2010 at 5:20 PM #

    You are making a habit of either misinterpreting me or just purely assume things for no visisble reason.

    Actually Ronaldo didnt look at all the other women plus hmmm what exactly makes you think that he assumes any woman in there would be an opportunity for a blowjob?He was acting very respectfull towards the stuff and the employed boys and girls that offer you a back massage he nicely declined.(The massage thing is nothing sexuall or exploitive they offer it to men and woman also man and women perform it)

    I dont understand why just because I told you that we me an him exchanged looks makes you think that he checked out all the women or that he was acting sexiest in any sort of way.HE DIDNT!!!

    I really belive that something could of happened,well if me and him were dateless.I dont just say it for the sake of it Im not petty like that.

    But anyhow even if all the fantasy subjects in ppls mind were pure cgi or not real people at all I would still mind it.And I do consider fantasy to be real,it is happening in those ppl heads after all.
    Fantasing is just not a carnal way of cheating but it is cheating!!!!
    Plus you might be naive enough to believe that your partner (Im just giving an example here) wouldnt actually have sex with those ppl if he or she could or that they find them far more attractive then you.You might argue that this is a trust issue but I dont think it fully is.

    There is a big ass chance that he or she if they fantasise and look at porn much rather have sex with those fantasy personas then with you.
    He just couldnt get them so he has sex with you.Many people say ´ its nothing wrong with my partner fantasising aslong as he or she doesnt cheat with them on me´ But really in most cases the truth is that they cant have sex with those ppl,thats the only reason they dont…….its not out of choice or being faithfull.

  199. sneeky bunny May 28, 2010 at 10:21 PM #

    I’m sorry to have misunderstood you. I will take your word that you were the only woman there that received his admiration.
    That being said, he was with a date. You were with a date. You exchanged looks. Nothing happened. You seem to go back and forth as to whether or not something would have happened. So. Either it was just a fantasy moment in which case neither his date or yours had anything to worry about or, by your own, standards you cheated on your boyfriend by imagining having sex with Ronaldo. Your boyfriend, according to your hypothesis, is naive to think that you wouldn’t actually have sex with this football star if you could or that you find Ronaldo far more attractive then him.
    There is a big ass chance, (according to you) that if you fantasize about Ronaldo that you would much rather have sex with this fantasy persona then with your boyfriend.
    You just couldnt get him so you have sex with your boyfriend instead, and by extension, Ronaldo settled for his date as a substitute for you. That really, in most cases, the truth is that since you can’t have sex with those people, (i.e. in your case Ronaldo) thats the only reason you dont…….its not out of choice or being faithful.
    For the most part, I have used your own words. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Does it seem likely that, any of that is true? Because you love your partner don’t you? You wouldn’t really have run off, if you had been given the chance, and screwed Ronaldo would you? I would venture to say the answer to that would be no, you would not. Do you think that you might give others, (such as, for example, my lovers, or me for that matter,) the same benefit of the doubt? I have fantasies. I want to have sex with my real life flesh and blood lovers, both male and female. I do not want to screw Sasha Grey or Manuel Ferrera. Frankly, I am not interested in ever acting out, in real life, any of the things in my head that get me off.

    Let me stress once again, if fantasy is a deal breaker for you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I am in NO WAY suggesting that you should change how you conduct your personal life. That is the way you are wired. All I ask is that you realize that not every one is like you, and that it’s ok that not every one is like you. Your way is not the only way to be in this world and neither is mine. That has been my point through out our entire exchange. We are different from one another and that is ok. Ok?

  200. lizor May 30, 2010 at 11:05 AM #

    Hi Sneeky,

    Sorry for the long silence.

    I don’t feel comfortable weighing in on your exchange re: fantasy (as you requested back in March). My comment was in response to the argument posed by Michael Bader and others that Porn is “just a fantasy” and therefore harmless. I can see that I was not that clear about that.

    I figure there are all sorts of sexual experiences, some more masturbatory, some more intimate. Personally, I would be traumatized if I was fucked by my boyfriend while he imagined I was someone else. That would be like reliving the experience of being raped. That’s my experience of my sexuality and those are my limits. Within those I am very happy.

    If I were to offer an opinion on the broader landscape of sex, I can say that I am not very comfortable with peoples bodies being used as masturbatory aids, but I know that it is common. It’s practically the default idea of what sex is in our current pop culture: a mutual masturbatory exercise. I know that people can derive physical pleasure from such an activity and maybe even enhance relationships through sharing in an activity, but I do think that a whole lot of potential human experience is left out of such an approach.

    And while I am here, I would like to get something off my chest. I am sick to fucking death of the term “slut- shaming”. The most shaming that goes on when we talk about female sexuality is the unapologetic attacks on anyone who questions a woman’s right to exhibitionism and her right to degrade herself. There isn’t even a term for that kind of shaming is there?

    Also, do we have a term for the female version of the Uncle Tom? What is with us that we disallow any criticism of women catering to and furthering the patriarchal agenda? I am sick to death of tip toeing around increasingly stupid ideas and behaviours in both men and women I see almost everywhere I go and there are very few places where I can safely call this as I see it without being attacked as a shamer or an elitist.

    I would welcome any thoughts on this. It’s really bothering me.

  201. Alina June 1, 2010 at 12:25 AM #

    @sneeky bunny

    For 1 the Vip area we was in (there are a few at pacha) was quite small so yeah I didnt seem him ogling other women.I didnt fantasize about having sex with Cristiano……….at all Im just saying that it could of happened.

    Now if I wanted to or could be bothered I would of waited till his and my date are I dunno at the toilett and approached him etc…… the reason why I didnt is not only because I love my boyfriend but because I would of been intimidated and I dont really wanna have sex outside a relationship plus I hate one night stands…….

    Somehow in a different post of yours I thought you said you dont fantasize because it doesnt do anything for you well I guess I got it wrong.

    I know that people think differently about fantasising and its okay and etc…..BUT I just wanna make sure that you and others understand what it really is because somehow I have the feeling that u like others are just being brainwashed and desensitized to it all plus the media and majority of ppl paint it out to be okay and that doesnt help ppl to create their own opinions.

    I am an outsider not being okay with me or my parnter fantasising,I know that.Apparently even in a feminist forum that saddens me a lil but oh well…..

    I only gave u and your partners as examples not like I think that it is like that, I even said it everytime.

    I dont know if u really fantasize about Sasha Grey or if you just gave an example but that poor girl that makes it out like its good and empowering to do porn oh dear God!!! Also from what I red dunno if true or not she does porn where she is being slapped and tortured.
    So your point is that you wouldnt wanna have carnal sex with Sasha,okay BUT you did choose to have imaginary sex with her wich FOR ME [and yes it is my opinion only] is allready cheating,wrong ,unacceptable…..Its just if you will Cheating Lite……….its not carnal but in those minutes you do imagine lots of sexuall things happening and sex……

    Would you fantasize if your partner could read your mind and could see exactly whats going on in your fantasies?Or vice versa?

    I find it important to be also faithfull in that lil blindspot wich is the fantasy world……Why take advantage of it just because it is a blindspot.

  202. sneeky bunny June 1, 2010 at 8:13 PM #

    I do not fantasize about people, so no, I have never brought myself to orgasm thinking about Sasha Gray, or the cute guy at the grocery store or a celebrity or an ex or current lover. I fantasize about situations none of which I would care to experience in real life and several of which would be physically impossible. *That’s* what gets me off. Some one on, I believe, this blog, mentioned that they masturbate while thinking of waterfalls. So right there, three different people with three different avenues to orgasm. And that’s just three out of billions of people. See how complicated it can get? Not only are there people who fantasize about some one other than their partner, and some, like you, that only fantasize about the one they’re with (and by the way are you supposed to stop picturing them after you’ve broken up?) but there are people who don’t even include other living beings in their fantasy lives. Is it cheating on the water fall if one, instead, thinks occasionally of a pond for example?
    You are not alone in your position. Many people feel the way you do and that’s absolutely fine by me, as I keep telling you. I do not want you to change one little thing about how you conduct your love life, it is your business. But you are going to have accept that there are people (many, many people) who are different from you and that it is ok for them to be different from you. And the fact that they are different from you doesn’t mean they don’t know their own minds.
    In answer to your question, I consider my sexual fantasies private and have shared very few of them with even fewer people. That is not to say that I haven’t had conversations (and fruitful one I might add) about things we both might like to try (positions, locations, what have you) but what is in my head is my business and I afford the same courtesy to my partners.

  203. Alina June 2, 2010 at 10:46 PM #

    quote sneeky bunny:
    (and by the way are you supposed to stop picturing them after you’ve broken up?)

    First of all Hy.

    I dont think its wrong if some1 in a relationship fantasizes about waterfalls….I did limited my thoughts on fantasizing in a relationship about ppl, because as far as I am aware its the most common and for me the most disturbing one.
    I know its complicated I red here a post of ND saying that there is puppy porn so I guess some ppl fantasize about puppies whilst jerking off…:\ and etc….

    I dont think anyone needs to stop fantasizing about their partner when they break up unless they are in another serious relationship.
    I dont think fantasizing is wrong if you are single or if you are in a relationship that isnt about Love on both sides.
    With porn its different obviously you dont harm an extra person if you look at it whilst single but I still am 100% against porn, because of the way those women are threated in porn,because in the best case it changes ppls way of looking at other human beings and in the worst case it changes their sexuality and they become desensitized to anything thats within the limits of “healthy”

    I know and I did see all your efforts explaining that you accept my views and that it is okay to feel the way I do.I do get that.
    Not too sure why u feel like saying that, maybe becausae I am still going on about fantasizing and porn and bla bla……….well I do because I see this as a debate and a wonderfull opportunity for me to unleash my thoughts about it without fearing the consequnces I would have to deal wtih in a lets say more common forum.
    Ofcourse I hope that many women or men that have issues with a porn abusing partner read my posts and maybe helps them.

    I hope it widens ppls horizens a lil bit on the whole subject.

    Thats why I keep going on about it.

  204. Sameer January 18, 2011 at 12:54 PM #

    @Sarah :

    “See, like I said before, the argument that “You shouldn’t, because it’ll hurt your partner” doesn’t work as well. If my having an abortion would hurt my partner, does that mean I shouldn’t do it? Fuck no.”

    This argument is so blindingly stupid that I’m finding it difficult where to start. A woman’s choice to abort/not-abort her child will affect her for the rest of her life. If she doesn’t want the child, yet keeps it ONLY because the other partner might feel *hurt*, she will have to live with it for the REST OF HER LIFE. That would mot probably ruin her and the child’s life, in most cases. So the flip-side of doing something (abortion in this case) that your partner might/mightn’t like, is dissatisfaction and unhappiness for the rest of your life. That’s why it should be the woman’s decision whether or not to abort the child.

    On the other hand, if a woman doesn’t like her partner looking at porn and jerking off to it and wants him to stop, what is the worst that can happen if he stops? Is that really comparable to what would happen if a woman chooses not to go through abortion? Really?! There is no logical coherence in this kind of comparison.

    I’m confused as to if you’re just an idiot or a guy masquerading as a woman.

  205. Traveler March 29, 2012 at 11:48 PM #

    Similar to TrinityVA on October 25, 2008: I can add something (in response to): “I have a suggestion for women who are dealing with a porn-using partner: start making out with other men until he stops. Tell him it isn’t cheating because there’s no penetration…”

    While I get the sentiment behind this advice, in fact this would only serve to arouse the porn addict. My own anecdotal evidence of the truth of this statement is: In response to my raging and crying and profound pain & loss stemming from my husband’s recent revelations about his extreme porn use and other sexual acting out (beyond the computer screen), he actually suggested that I look up “cuckolding videos” on the Internet and even consider getting another man to make said husband watch while the other guy would f*** me, as a way for me to feel a sense of power or revenge on him for hurting me so badly.

    Right, why am I still in this marriage? (I’m working on finding a way out!)

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Good Girls, Bad Girls - You Know We Have Our Share « Natalia Antonova - October 31, 2008

    [...] Girls, Bad Girls – You Know We Have Our Share Jump to Comments So I went over to Nine Deuce’s blog a few days ago, and left a couple of comments, mainly because conversation threads that stray into [...]

  2. links for 2009-02-23 « Shut Up, Sit Down - February 23, 2009

    [...] Porn Part 8: Rights vs. Privileges "I have a suggestion for women who are dealing with a porn-using partner: start making out with other men until he stops. Tell him it isn’t cheating because there’s no penetration — and because you don’t feel anything for the other men — and that he’s lucky because you’re coming home to him. Tell him that, since it isn’t technically cheating, he has no right to try to tell you what to do. And then tell him he’s being a hysterical, whiny little bitch if he doesn’t just get over it, that he’s just jealous. I know, yeah right." (tags: feminism pornography relationships)   [...]

  3. links for 2009-02-23 « Embololalia - February 23, 2009

    [...] Porn Part 8: Rights vs. Privileges « Rage Against the Man-chine And this is where porn comes in. Men have come to assume that using porn is a right. How many of my readers have been in a relationship with a dude who thinks he’s entitled to use porn and that it’s your responsibility to “get over it”? How many of my male readers have used porn while in a relationship, knowing that it made your partner uncomfortable? Why, might I ask my male porn-using readers, do you feel entitled to do something that hurts someone you (purportedly) care about? I have a suggestion for women who are dealing with a porn-using partner: start making out with other men until he stops. Tell him it isn’t cheating because there’s no penetration — and because you don’t feel anything for the other men — and that he’s lucky because you’re coming home to him. Tell him that, since it isn’t technically cheating, he has no right to try to tell you what to do. And then tell him he’s being a hysterical, whiny little bitch if he doesn’t just get over it, that he’s just jealous. (tags: pornography gender dating advice glibertarians) [...]

  4. Why I Hate Men Part 2: Guys Take Up Space « Rage Against the Man-chine - February 18, 2010

    [...] They grope us, harass us, leer at us, and threaten us, and expect us to take it as a compliment.  Men also think they’re entitled to use pornography despite the fact that women and girls are abused in its production and despite the negative effects [...]

  5. Rage Against the Manchine’s Series on Pornography « AntiPorn101 - February 14, 2011

    [...] Porn Part Eight: Rights vs. Privileges [...]

  6. Quote of the Day: Rights vs. privileges « Exiled Stardust - November 14, 2012

    [...] Nine Deuce, from this excellent blog post which everybody in the world should go read right [...]

  7. Turn your back on naked activism « Exiled Stardust - November 14, 2012

    [...] we already have.  Pushing for anything more gets the male martyr act from dudes who think giving up their privilege is oppressing men.  Don’t even think about taking away their p%rn!  That’s crazy [...]

  8. Prostitution: The Swedish or the Dutch model? | Links feminisme - March 21, 2014

    […] am reminded of this funny article about rights versus privileges: http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2008/04/25/porn-part-8-rights-vs-privileges/ (last accessed March 18th, […]

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