I know there’s a frustration that, as women and feminists, we are *constantly* being accused of “man-hating” no matter how mild a feminist statement we make. The constant pressure to reassure people we don’t hate men,I think that’s part of what’s behind the reaction you got. Of course there isn’t anything innate in men that makes them misogynists, it’s completely learned behavior and the way humans react to being given power and privilege over another group of people. I think misogynists would like to believe that it’s boys will be boys or due to testosterone or whatever. Then they don’t have to take responsibility for their actions and choices. They can justify their bullying and abusive behavior.But when women say things like that it’s not “misandry”, it’s frustration at trying to change things and being met with hostility and having your words twisted on you time and time again. Sometimes we need to vent, sometimes it comes out as “men are such assholes!!” It’s only human to wonder why you’re targeted with so much hate all the time.

Skeptifem responded: “The same discussion went on in atheist/skeptic groups I have been a part of. There was this one camp called “framers” who thought that framing arguments carefully would win us more support, but most of what they wanted was for the blunt folks to stop saying what they meant and sugar coat it for the fence sitters. They claimed that it would recruit more people, but there wasn’t any real evidence for that. People who made forceful critiques seemed to be the ones who got people to re-examine their choices. They wrote best sellers and were asked to make speeches and started foundations. The framer people mostly just banned cuss words from their blogs and told the successful people that they were doing it wrong. I was really unimpressed by all of it.”

Hecate responded: “Incredibly well put and very concise points, skeptifem. I feel the same way.”

I also think what Skeptifem wrote was incredibly well put. And I also feel the same way. I’m not saying we should sugar coat things all the time. It’s not just the absence of sugar coating of a point that’s the problem here. It’s shit coating of points. That’s what I’m saying is counter-productive. I don’t think our points should be coated in anything, sugar or shit. Also common here is shit flinging with no point in it at all.

Skeptifem wrote: “I have had some seriously mean comments thrown my way, and it would be easy to say “if you’re going to talk to me THAT way, I don’t know why I should even listen”, but I can’t be satisfied with that. Inside I know that I should really get to understand the point being made, and discuss that.”

Again I agree. But that advice should be directed at Hecate not me. I made several points in my posts, but she didn’t bother to discuss them are address them, she just hurled shit at me…..

Hecate:”Well emlee, I’m sure you and Muhammad will become fast friends. Why not go off and start your own blog about how wonderful and adorable and cute and fluffy men are? It bothers me that your grammar is just about below the level of a 5th grader. You want to talk about ‘disturbing?’ Well, there you go! You can be your own unsettling case study.”

By all means be blunt and direct and even snappy when making points. But don’t coat points in shit and don’t fling pointless shit at me about my grammar. Nine Deuce walks this balance quite well, and she can be searing at times, but she doesn’t cross the line, in my opinion. I also think that the line is drawn in a different place when you’re blogging vs. when you’re in a conversation. What is rude in a conversation to a particular person is not necessarily rude in a blog to a general audience.

I dropped out of school in grade 10 and mentally dropped out years before that because of abuse at home ruining my concentration. My bad grammar/spelling is something I’m ashamed of but I thought I could come here and experience a welcoming community where we challenged each other’s ideas but without personal and petty attacks such as this. Apparently not, and so I ask my roommate to edit my posts here now, to avoid humiliation from anyone, but asking for editing help is itself degrading. So thanks for making me feel like shit about my lumpen proletariat background. So much for solidarity with or even decency towards women who have been forced into the underclass due to abusive circumstances. Here there is only solidarity for those who agree on everything, and those who don’t have shit flung at them, with or without points hiding inside the turds. And those who don’t fling shit are still complacent by not calling it out or by attempting to justify it, as Skeptifem does.

Quoting Hecate again: “Well Emlee, you should probably change your handle to ‘gasbag.’ What a boorish dullard you are.”

Notice how she ignores every point I made in my previous post and just dismisses it all by calling me a gasbag and boorish dullard. This is exactly the type of thing Skeptifem was rightfully warning against.

Hecate: “Also, this happens to be ND’s blog, not yours. So you don’t get to decide who stays or who goes, little Ms. Gasbag. She does.”

I never was trying to decide who stays or who goes or presumed I had that authority, or even presumed I could make a request to ND that someone be banned. I was just giving advice on more effective ways to convince others. Hecate, you seem to misread everything I write, either purposely or due to being a little out of touch with reality. Like when I called you a dick for making fun of my grammar, your reply was: “Ah yes, anyone who has an opinion is a horrible bitch!” I had not once said or implied that I had a problem with you having an opinion. Ironically, me having an opinion (different from yours) is what provoked you into insulting me in the first place. The evidence piles up that either you wilfully twist reality or you involuntarily misperceive it. Whatever the origin of the misperception, you are blind to anything shitty you do towards others, and you perceive shitty treatment towards you where it doesn’t exist – which then makes you feel entitled to treat that person like shit. Reminds me of every abusive boyfriend I’ve ever had! And so I know from experience there’s no point in trying to reason with people like this.

I can’t help but be reminded of last year’s drama on the internet with Jennifer McLune and oob. At first I was on Jennifer’s side because I’ve also been in spaces where white people’s “subtle” racism has pushed me out. But after looking into it further I started to wonder if she wasn’t of the type I’ve been describing, who perceives shitty treatment where none has occurred, and then responds by lashing out against the perceived perpetrators. It’s impossible for me to tell for sure, but that’s the impression I got after reading her account of what happened at oob and also reading her FaceBook arguments with various people over the previous months. It’s ironic because the people who (may have been) unfairly lashed out against were radical feminists, and if the people who comment on this blog are representative of radical feminists, then they were just getting a taste of their own medicine. It’s sad to say because I consider myself a radical feminist. When I read this blog I agree with every post. When I read Andrea Dworkin I agree with every page. But when I read the comments on this blog I start thinking, if this is what radical feminism means, then fuck it.

Skeptifem wrote: “You can look to previous rights struggles to see how much being nice mattered..”

Good point. Mass movements are usually successful when they attempt to force those in power to make changes (or forcefully take power), and rarely successful when they attempt to morally persuade those in power to make changes. But this blog and the conversations in the comments section is an entirely different context. Asshole anti-feminists have their comments blocked (if I correctly remember what’s written on The Rules page).The people allowed to post here are at minimum what you called “fence sitters” — those who are supportive of feminism generally although they may have certain positions or views which are anti-feminist, and they often come here looking to learn and open minded to having their views challenged. I think these people deserve our kindness. Not that we need to sugar coat things for them, but don’t shit coat things. That will make their minds close up. As for the asshole anti-feminists, there’s not much hope for them coming on side, and they tend to be shit flingers themselves so we might as well fling shit back.

Also I think the reason that some men can tell the difference between the way women are portrayed in porn creates and real life, is that when masturbating, some of them want something which is purely lust and when engaging with another person, they want to do exactly that- connect with them.

What a load.

Kindly explain how one man’s request to “throatfuck” me is a legitimate expression of his desire to “connect” with a fellow human being. And I suppose “can I jizz on your face” or the ever-prevalent “do you like it up the ass” is also a manifestation of this altruistic desire for men to “connect” with women too, hmm? If that isn’t porn-induced lust, I don’t know what is. You sound very young & naive, but you’ll experience the sad reality soon enough.

Feminism can’t be the assumption that most men are lacking in empathy and understanding.

It’s not an assumption, it’s a fact. Masculinity 101 is prevalent to the point that few, if any, men escape it’s anti-woman teachings. I judge a tree by the fruit it produces… and I think it’s safe to say that most lemons are sour. Oh, btw… who are you to determine what Feminism can or cannot be? You’re in no position to make such demands, noobie.

The same discussion went on in atheist/skeptic groups I have been a part of. There was this one camp called “framers” who thought that framing arguments carefully would win us more support, but most of what they wanted was for the blunt folks to stop saying what they meant and sugar coat it for the fence sitters. They claimed that it would recruit more people, but there wasn’t any real evidence for that. People who made forceful critiques seemed to be the ones who got people to re-examine their choices. They wrote best sellers and were asked to make speeches and started foundations. The framer people mostly just banned cuss words from their blogs and told the successful people that they were doing it wrong. I was really unimpressed by all of it.

The way that framers talk also wraps their suggestions up in a threat. “If you don’t speak politely, then I won’t listen.” Its BS. I have had some seriously mean comments thrown my way, and it would be easy to say “if you’re going to talk to me THAT way, I don’t know why I should even listen”, but I can’t be satisfied with that. Inside I know that I should really get to understand the point being made, and discuss that. There are too many times in my past where I overlooked someone’s point, one that would have saved me a lot of trouble, because I was unable to look past their tone and see what their point was. People who say things in a way that doesn’t feel honest are usually a lot harder to understand, even if the honest way is kind of dickish or rude.

You can look to previous rights struggles to see how much being nice mattered. People who are eager to learn go and do it, they don’t make others responsible for their education.