L from Editorializing the Editors posted a comment on one of the blogs in this series referring to the internalization of porn culture by women as a widespread case of Stockholm Syndrome, an apt characterization if there ever was one. I’m of the opinion that women who participate in and defend the production or consumption of pornography have been conditioned by our porn-crazed culture to believe that the choice to capitulate to the porn industry’s demands on women’s sexuality is something that they themselves desire. Don’t get all upset with me and tell me that I’m robbing women of agency. I’m not. I’m arguing that women, consciously or not, choose to participate in their own objectification because the rewards for doing so are better than the difficulty that comes with resisting porn culture’s demands. The parameters are laid down by the forces that be (patriarchy, capitalism, etc.), not by women. Women who choose to participate in porn culture are just exercising what instrumentality they have within a restrictive system.
I’ve suffered through reading, deleting, and even responding to a lot of comments that center on the idea that some women choose to be involved in the making of porn, that some women like to watch porn, that some women like to be treated like the women in porn, that women are “taking control” of some aspects of the porn industry, that there are forms of porn that are not misogynistic, blah fucking blah. There are as many arguments for the continuation of women’s exploitation and subjugation as there are varieties of pornography, and none of them are right. Almost all arguments in defense of porn production and consumption spring from the kinds of libertarian economic and social positions that most people who aren’t comfortable with the religious right but also aren’t comfortable with the idea that their actions have consequences beyond their own lives exhibit. Libertarianism is naive and myopic in almost every sense, and porn is no exception.
Men who use porn know that, deep down, they think it’s odd that the women they’re jerking off to have “chosen” to participate in pornography (more on that concept here). It is odd that a woman would choose to work in porn, would choose to use porn, or would choose to defend men’s and their own porn use to other women. It’s odd because women should instinctively sense, when confronted with the vast majority of pornographic images, that what they are seeing is degrading to the human spirit. Evolutionary psychologists can make whatever bullshit claims they want to about men being “naturally” prone to becoming aroused by visual stimulation (which is utter horseshit), but no such claim has been made when it comes to women’s porn use, most likely because it would be absurd to argue that women’s porn use stems from anything other than a quest for acceptance in a world dominated by entitled and oblivious porn-using men.
I think I’ve got an explanation for why some women get into porn, and maybe even some alternatives to offer to women who are involved in their own objectification simply because they don’t see any other options. Women get the message from a very young age that their value lies in whether they are attractive to men. It’s hammered home by television, movies, ads, fairy tales, toys, music, etc. These outside influences are so strong that they can completely transform female (not to mention male, but I’m tired of talking about men) sexuality into something vastly different from female sexuality in its natural state. Women come to see themselves as if through a lens, as if through the eyes of someone else, after a lifetime of exposure to media that teach them to conceive of themselves in such a way. It is no surprise, then, that many women find that their own sexual arousal is highly dependent on the ways in which others seem to perceive them. Almost everyone is aroused by the feeling of being desired, but in our culture, that tends to become the chief element in women’s arousal. Many women see themselves as if watching from somewhere beyond themselves, and derive their sexual arousal from viewing their own sexuality as if through the eyes of an onlooker. Put simply, women in our culture are conditioned to be aroused by the idea that they can cause arousal in an observer.
It’s not a very big leap from that idea, which I contend exists to some degree in all women, to the idea that a woman would be excited by being viewed as a sexualized object, or by viewing images of other women as sexualized objects. In fact, I’d say that seeing beyond such systematic and forceful conditioning is the big leap, which is why there are so many “sex-positive” “feminists” and women who use and defend the use of porn, and so few outspoken anti-porn feminists. BUT… that doesn’t mean that the pro-porn crowd is right. Remember, everyone used to think slavery was OK, that women shouldn’t get to vote, that cocaine was a good beverage additive, that menthol cigarettes cured colds, and so on. I mean, look at how many people still think Family Guy is a good show and that Panic at the Disco is a good band.
How many times have you heard some woman who prostitutes herself in the pornography industry say that she’s “just an exhibitionist”? It’s exactly this process of women being conditioned to identify with their own objectification that allows such a woman to make that claim, and I wouldn’t argue that she’s being dishonest. What I would argue is that she’s either consciously or unconsciously avoiding thinking past that idea, because doing so would cause some serious emotional discomfort and require some difficult decisions. Participating in your own objectification comes with some major rewards; you get attention (although not respect), you get (limited and questionable) affection, you get a bunch of dudes lusting after you. In short, if you don’t think too hard about it, allowing yourself to be objectified can make you feel valuable and powerful in a system in which women don’t have a lot of access to power (and in which they are fairly consistently undervalued as human beings). Defending men’s right to use porn, and using porn yourself, gets you the approval of men who want nothing more than a woman who is just as into her own objectification as they are. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard a dude tell his friends how pumped he is to have found a girl who is as dirty as a porn “star,” or how excited he is that his girlfriend likes porn as much as he does. It’s funny, though, I’ve never heard one of these same guys tell his friends how stoked he is that his pornified girlfriend is a cool person, or smart, or interesting, or funny…
What does going along with porn culture require of women? I’ve already argued that women, as a result of social conditioning, generally come to be aroused at the thought of arousing a third party, but is that the whole of women’s sexuality? Of course not. Human sexuality is very complicated (I would even argue that female sexuality is more complicated than male sexuality), and there are so many factors involved that I won’t even try to tell anyone what female sexuality “is,” but I will say that I’m pretty sure it involves more than just being aroused by being seen as a sexual object. Porn culture, in tandem with our mainstream media, has taught women and men that the object of sexual interaction is male orgasm, and that everything else that takes place is corollary to that. Even the most indoctrinated of women cannot derive all of their sexual pleasure from arousing men, so this poses a serious problem; women’s sexuality is almost completely ignored in porn, and is treated as a side dish to male sexuality in most other media. That’s ridiculous. Women’s sexuality, the more complicated of the two, is treated as if it were so simple as to be almost non-existent, and women who want to go along with porn culture in pursuit of male acceptance are being forced to make do with having only a very small portion of their own sexuality acknowledged and having the vast majority of their sexual needs ignored.
It’s a dilemma: is it worth the trouble to demand that our sexuality be taken as independent of male sexuality, that our sexual needs be met, and that we be seen as fully human individuals who approach sex with motives that extend beyond the desire to titillate men? It might not be for some people. There don’t seem to be a huge number of men who are interested in understanding female sexuality or in relinquishing their perceived right to define what sex is and should be. For some women, learning to make do with a less-than-perfect sex life might be the easier option when the alternative is risking being shunned, ignored, or called a feminazi, lesbian, or prude for demanding that their sexuality be accorded the consideration men’s sexuality is.
But the only way that will change is if more of us do exactly that. I’m of the opinion that a lot of men, if they actually knew what real female sexuality was about, might find it more interesting than what goes on in porn. I also think that a lot of women would be surprised to find out just how complex and full of possibilities female sexuality is. Instead of thinking about new ways to sexually manipulate men, why not think about new ways to experience your own sexuality? Women need to start thinking about themselves more and about men less in almost every arena in life. It’s difficult and it goes against everything we’ve been taught, but it’s ultimately the most rewarding path in life, even if it is uncomfortable at times.
100 Comments
April 23, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Okay, okay. I like what you’re saying. This post really put things into perspective; I’m ready to stop using porn.
But I’m stuck on this idea of female sexuality.
I’d like to explore this concept further – perhaps a reference point would be helpful.
So on that note, I ask of anyone who has an idea:
What is male sexuality like?
What is positive about the way men approach sex?
How is it so multi-faceted?
What are the elements of sexuality enjoyed by men that women have been neglecting?
Where can I learn more about this?
Any bit of guidance would be much appreciated.
April 23, 2008 at 10:15 PM
It isn’t about comparing ourselves to men and trying to model our sexuality after theirs, it’s about thinking about our own sexuality on its own, thinking about what it is that you would like to do, how you most want to express yourself, etc., but on your own terms rather than in pursuance of male approval. All of these questions take time to work out, and they are things you have to work our for yourself over time. I think they key is just realizing that your part in a sexual encounter is just as integral as your partner’s, and that your desires carry just as much weight as his (or hers) do, and then going from there. It may take me a bit, but I’ll get together a list of resources you can have a look at.
April 23, 2008 at 10:34 PM
I understand.
But I think the reason I asked was not to use male sexuality as a template. I’m just wondering what a healthy, functioning approach to sex might be… I’ll think more about it… starting from the basics, perhaps.
One of the most interesting points discussed in this last post was the fact that women are conditioned through the lens of their potential partner. This startling realization lends itself toward the conclusion that women have been engaging in sex for the sole benefit of the other person.
I definitely don’t want to be having sex for other people. As a core value, I’ve refused to compromise myself for my peers and popularity’s sake, so I can appreciate, now, that it’s a natural leap to take a similar vow not to compromise myself for this institution of sex.
… a fascinating revelation… Thank you very much, for sharing your ideas.
I will be much obliged for any resources you might have to offer.
April 23, 2008 at 10:46 PM
As a middle-aged man, divorced, with a less-than-sizable *ahem*, I spend the overwhelming majority of my life single.
I never was huge into porn, but I will admit that I have, at times, been into it. I understand the destructiveness of it. At the same time, I find women to be beautiful, and consequently, I end up feeling stimulated by some images.
As someone trying to do the right thing, this causes me a great deal of guilt. If I participate in masterbation, I am defiling someone, whether it is an actual human through a visual image, or a conceptual human through a visualized imagining.
Unfortunately, if I don’t occassionally “let off some steam”, I become profundly, suicidally bitter and engage in self-destruction.
At this point, I’m in a dilemna. How can a hetro man be a good person, and at the same time cope with “the urges”? Is it even possible? Or is our mere existence such a destructive negative that our only positive action is to remove ourselves?
April 23, 2008 at 11:20 PM
Bill – The answer is to use your imagination and not create demand in the porn industry.
April 23, 2008 at 11:23 PM
Free – It’s OK to have sex for other people, provided that they are having sex for you (meaning you both want to do it because you both want to please each other). The whole point is that sex should be a vehicle for the expression of affection, but that requires the participants to meet as equals and to empathize with each other. I think sex under those conditions has a world of potential beyond what takes place in most relationships in which sex emulates the dynamic in porn.
April 23, 2008 at 11:34 PM
you sound angry, hirsute and, I would hazard a guess, a bit portly.
April 23, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You sound like you forgot you have a Shift key. Nice try on the insults, though. They’re usually the last resort of people who have nothing to say in response to my actual arguments. If I had a dime for every time some asshole thought he could obviate all of my valid points by telling me that I’m ugly (and therefore worthless), I’d have enough money for a 40 of St. Ides. Keep it up, bro. You’re only proving my points for me.
April 23, 2008 at 11:48 PM
Bill, masturbation and using porn are not the same thing. Masturbate away. Use your imagination to its fullest extent. No one’s going to know what you fantasized about last night unless you tell them, and no feminist I know is a thought police officer. Just don’t use porn to get off and don’t treat the real women in your life (i.e., the ones not in your head) like they should somehow live up to your fantasies. Maybe I’m wrong, but that doesn’t seem difficult to me. I have masturbation fantasies and I don’t use porn and I don’t treat my partner as if he can or should fulfill those fantasies. Sometimes those fantasies aren’t the most uplifting ones ever, which is why I don’t share them. But at least if I’m just using my brain, I’m not literally watching the oppression of a woman on my screen.
Nine Deuce, thanks for the link-back! I agree with everything you’ve written so far. This discussion is making me think about The Open-Source Boob Project. The story goes, a coed circle of friends decided that they liked and/or were okay with touching the women’s breasts/having their breasts touched. This group turned it into The Project and took it to a convention where you could opt in to have folks ask to touch your breasts. There’s all sorts of fail embedded into this project from start to finish. But there are sex-pozzers claiming that no one is talking about the women who “just are” exhibitionists! and how much they might be enjoying being touched! I think what you have to say here would fit very well into the discussion surrounding the Project, even though this project isn’t exactly porn (though it’s not far off). I just keep going back to what Twisty says: if it’s something the dudes expect anyway, it’s probably not actually empowering (just empowerfulling) and it’s highly, highly unlikely to be a feminist act.
Let folks touch your boobs, be in porn, enjoy it, whatever, just don’t shake it in my face and say that you’re a feminist for it or that you’re empowering other women or that, at the very least, you’re not hurting other women. Embracing a sexuality or a sexual attitude that is in line with what the patriarchy wants us to embrace is highly suspect as a “feminist move.”
April 24, 2008 at 12:03 AM
easy target=cheap shot. I haven’t seen anything here that hasn’t been said better by Andrea Dworkin, when, I would hazard a guess, you were in earth-friendly cloth diapers. If not a gleam in your Pater Familius’ ocular orb…..
I guess if I admit to being hung like a gerbil and “masterbating” my idiotsyncratic punctuation and crappy typing would be acceptable. Realistically, anyone on a blog offering up “comments” is, on at least one level, jerking off.
I feel so dirty now.
April 24, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Josh, I’m trying to present things to people in terms they can get down with. I’m a fucking populist, man. If you think Dworkin said it better, read her. But really, who are you to give writing advice?
Also, my parents weren’t hippies. They were all about plastic diapers, and neither of them has ever heard of Andrea Dworkin.
Your typing is not idiosyncratic, it’s incorrect.
April 24, 2008 at 1:12 AM
“Women need to start thinking about themselves more and about men less in almost every arena in life.”
————————-
I should follow the corollary of this advice. I need to quit pressuring and hating myself for being too shy and polite to meet a lot of women. Focus on myself and my needs, quit worrying because I don’t physically or financially “measure up” to Bill Gates, Matthew McConaughey or the godawful “Smilin’ Bob” character.
Perhaps then, someday a smart, strong, good-hearted woman may look at this loopy, shy, forty-sumptin’ guy and decide “He might be fun to have around”.
Thank you for this blog. It has given me a lot to think about and hopefully grow with!
April 24, 2008 at 1:24 AM
I get annoyed by people who say “use your imagination”. You know, if there was no porn around or if it was really hard to access, using my imagination would probably be a good idea. But, it is so much better with actual images and videos. I mean, for me at least, it’s like someone telling me “don’t watch that movie, imagine it”. No, I’d much rather watch a fking movie than imagine it. Look if you have an amazingly vivid imagination, good for you. Not everybody is born with that.
April 24, 2008 at 1:26 AM
Josh,
I may not be in possession of what society considers “adequate lumber”, but at least I have a brain, heart, and the courage to recognize and work on my weaknesses.
Try it…if you dare!
April 24, 2008 at 1:58 AM
The point, someguy, is that “using your imagination” needs not to be the alternative, but the rules, because there is no way to watch the movie you’d prefer not to have to imagine without women getting hurt for it – which begs the question, “Would you prefer to abuse women while having easy masturbation fodder, or to respect women while having to (gasp!) imagine the acts or not picture anything at all?” to which the answer, if you choose to continue insisting that you don’t want to picture a movie that you have set before you, is “the former”.
April 24, 2008 at 3:09 AM
someguy, first of all, expecting someone to make a movie so you don’t have to exert any brain cells by imagining something with your own mind is lazy. But probably more importantly (leaving aside the fact that commodification and abuse of women is THE most important issue), when you fantasize you get what you want, not what someone decides you want.
Do I want to look at some plastic-surgery enhanced woman who doesn’t even look human being porked by some short, fat, bald, hairy, ugly creep whose only positive attribute is his 9-inch schlong? Hell, no.
Are porn producers ever going to make a porn movie showing me having sex with Spiderman? No. Can I fantasize about it? Yes.
When I fantasize, I can have sex with anyone I want. I can change it up if it’s not working.
For me, it’s the same as knitting. If I go to the store to buy a hat, I can only choose from what’s being offered. If I knit a hat, I can make it however I want.
It is difficult to use your imagination if you’ve been spoon-fed images for a long time. It’ll take a while, but then you’ll be conjuring up all sorts of scenarios that’ll curl your toes.
April 24, 2008 at 3:23 AM
Nine Deuce, you might want to check out those links. That clitoris site seems to be encouraging women to shave their pubic hair. Here’s a portion of it. It made me uncomfortable.
“Having short or no pubic hair can have its advantages during partner sex. First your partner may prefer it and find it sexually stimulating. As a result they find you more desirable. A woman’s partner may prefer to be able to see what they are about to lick with their tongue and insert their fingers or penis into. A thick growth of pubic hair may obscure one’s view of a woman’s genitals and cause you to be curious or even fearful of what lies behind. Women who like oral sex often find it more enjoyable when their sensitive skin is directly exposed to their partner’s tongue and not protected by a layer of hair. Their partner also does not have to worry about getting hair in their mouth. Some women like to shave because of sexual roles they act out, the naughty schoolgirl, the submissive slave, or the seductive flasher. The trimming and shaving of the pubic hair is just one way of enhancing sex, solo and with a partner.”
April 24, 2008 at 3:31 AM
Bonobobabe – Touche. I need to be more careful with these links. I didn’t read everything on the site, so let me publicly un-recommend that one.
Does anyone know of anything I can point Free to?
April 24, 2008 at 4:10 AM
On the subject of feminism, I had bookmarked Ariel Levy’s book “Female Chauvinist Pigs” a while ago, I think I’ll start there. It was referenced on Wikipedia, so… that may or may not be a good thing. It’s a start. (Still searching for ideas on the sexuality part.)
And in response to the conversation between you and Josh, I for one totally appreciate that this blog is being toned down for newer and younger audiences, like myself. Seasoned feminist discourse is way too inundating, I’ll get there eventually but I need my baby steps. A populist approach can pave the way.
April 24, 2008 at 4:11 AM
I promised long ago to write this blog for a general audience. It’s a fine line sometimes; I have a hard time resisting resorting to using terms that most rad feminists understand the nuances of but that sound too extreme to laypeople who don’t know the entirety of their meaning. I want to both discuss feminist issues with other feminists, and present some feminist ideas in palatable terms to thoughtful people who may not yet identify as feminists. I do my best.
April 24, 2008 at 4:26 AM
This post is great (actually, the whole series). When getting into the porn/anti-porn debate, it always seems to go back to “Well some women enjoy it.” I, baffled by the idea that anyone could truly enjoy being dehumanized, can never find a good way to keep that from kicking the debate into pointless circular arguments. Thanks for putting the idea into words!
April 24, 2008 at 4:36 AM
I agree that the porn industry is, by nature, destructive and that its product very much contributes to perpetuating misogyny in our culture. That said, you seem to have a very rigid understanding of the “average” woman’s sexuality and reaction to porn that I’d like to address.
The fact is that many, many women use porn — often not the visual variety, but the market for “romance novels” (with widely varying levels of misogyny) cannot be denied. Even beyond this rather stereotypical example, one must only look to fandom to find myriad examples of literary porn (both slash and het) produced and consumed almost exclusively by women. Perhaps I am hopelessly naive, but I don’t think the enjoyment women get out of these forms of porn necessarily hinge on the objectification of the female body (this is especially evident when one considers slash fiction).
Rather, I think that exposure to sex or depictions of sex will create sexual arousal in most individuals, regardless of the reaction of their higher brain function (subconscious or otherwise). This physical reaction is often a source of grief and confusion for women (and children) who have been raped. For my own part, I know that I have been stimulated by images that, on a higher level, I find disgusting and humiliating. I don’t think that I am alone in this experience.
Thus, I don’t that “Stockholm Syndrome” is the *reason* why women enjoy watching porn. At best, it only allows them to use material in their pursuit of arousal or orgasm that might normally be offensive to them.
But visual and literary forms of porn are fundamentally different, right? Absolutely. The general trend that porn-for-men=visual and porn-for-women=literary is, in my opinion, a self-perpetuating social construct. As you pointed out, evolutionary psychologists love this dichotomy because it gives them more (perceived) ammo in their quest to prove that gender is biological. Putting aside their general douchebaggery, however, the fact remains that literary porn is, largely, created and consumed by women; while visual porn is created for men.
Thus, the “male perspective” is assumed in most visual porn. In much of hardcore porn, this is manifested as intense misogyny and trash-ification of women. However, in a lot of mainstream porn the male perspective is limited to a focus on the face and body of the female participant(s). In these cases, I think a woman (especially a lesbian and/or feminist) can impose her own perspective on the porn, rendering it merely a tool for her own sexual gratification.
Which would be great, except that the other main difference between visual and literary porn is that visual porn requires real live human beings whose lives are (likely) being ruined. Visual porn may be more stimulating, but the human cost just isn’t worth it. I won’t go into this further because you’ve already covered it pretty exhaustively during this series.
As for men, even if it were not for the above concerns, I’m not sure that there’s a “safe” way for them to watch any kind of visual porn, especially in the case of young boys. Being male, they do not have any impetus for thwarting the inherent male perspective and, thus, are very susceptible to subtle and not-so-subtle misogynistic themes. Further, I think they are less equipped to know where to draw the line when porn becomes explicitly about rape and not about sex. As you said, they see the woman “enjoying” it and reason that degradation, humiliation, and subjugation are normal components of sex.**
In conclusion … well, I’m not sure I’ve really said anything of worth, but I just wanted to organize and share my ideas on this on this subject, as I’m pretty new to thinking critically about it and am at the stage where communication is necessary to move forward. I also apologize if I’ve broken any blog-etiquette with this post — I’m very new to reading blogs, and I’ve never commented on an entry before.
* As a side note, I reject the idea that the use of aids for masturbation is cheating, whether those aids be toys, porn, or fantasies (based on real people or otherwise). I think most people would be happier if their partners did not masturbate at all, but, in my opinion, this is a insecure and selfish instinct that must be overcome if the relationship is to be healthy.
** I’m not arguing, by the way, that this can’t happen to women who watch porn as well — but I think this is a possible *result* of exposure to porn, not the reason why a woman might enjoy it in the first place. I also think that the adult feminist is pretty well protected from this eventuality and that even young girls with sufficiently strong feminist instincts are unlikely to fall victim to it.
April 24, 2008 at 4:44 AM
I don’t think using masturbatory aids is cheating, but I do think that using porn, which involves a person outside of the relationship being used in a sexual manner, is inappropriate for someone in a relationship, if only because it harms the emotional bond in the relationship and can lead to a sense of betrayal. Toys don’t run that risk, nor do fantasies. I don’t care whether a partner masturbates at all. It’s natural and completely acceptable. What I take issue with is someone using images of women being degraded to do so, because that says something about that person that tells me I ought not to be with them.
April 24, 2008 at 5:11 AM
I think you make excellent points, Laura, and they do a very good job of supplementing the main post and pre-empting any hole-poking in its points. It is interesting that you brought up literary porn, and its use by women kind of underlines the important assertion that visual images are *not* needed…
April 24, 2008 at 5:44 AM
For me, it’s the same as knitting. If I go to the store to buy a hat, I can only choose from what’s being offered. If I knit a hat, I can make it however I want.
——————-
I haven’t the slightest interest or inclination to knit hats (or whatever). Sure if I wanted a hat, knitting one myself would give me more flexibility and control but I’m quite happy with the vast range of hats on sale in stores that are probably much better than anything I will ever be able to make. Anyway, enough about hats.
April 24, 2008 at 5:51 AM
Yes, but wouldn’t it be better to make your own hat, knowing that the other ones were made by sweatshop workers who were being abused and exploited? Read my 4th post on porn for more on this.
April 24, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post, Nine. I am curious — what is your position on written porn use (primarily in women) as cheating? If you think it is not okay, how do you distinguish it from using one’s imagination?
If you do think it’s okay, why? Because there are not actual women involved? In my own experience, the men and women I’ve talked to don’t attach any more emotional significance to the people in visual porn than they do in written porn. In fact, I think written porn, for women anyway, carries a much higher risk of infidelity. I haven’t got anything to back this up, but it seems to me that a woman in the slash community, for instance, is much more like to fixate upon a particular character than the average man is to fixate upon a particular porn actress.
I do absolutely think that fixating upon any actress/actor or character (written or otherwise) is a form of cheating and quite unhealthy to a relationship. I just don’t see evidence that porn is any more likely to cause such a fixation than the average TV show. On the other hand, I do think a little less disturbing for a man to become obsessed with a TV star vs. a porn star, but that isn’t, for me at least, a function of the cheating aspect.
For me, the reason it’s more disturbing is that when you look at a man whose porn use is not sporadic, is not occasional — I think the poisoning effect that we’ve discussed is obviously concentrating in him, even if his porn of choice is not of the rape variety. And especially if it *is* of the rape variety, I absolutely agree with you — I don’t want that kind of person anywhere near my life.*
But I choose to believe that the kind of man that watches hardcore porn constantly and without regret is much less common than Cosmo and Men’s Health would have us believe. I think a lot of men are like Bill — they use it occasionally, and they aren’t necessarily okay with the type that sets out to degrade women. I don’t think there is anything really wrong with men like this — as long as they are willing to give it up once someone relieves them of the misconception that porn actresses “love sex” and that the porn industry is good (or at least neutral) for women.
I absolutely take your point that all (visual) porn, in some sense, degrades women (because of the male perspective of society as a whole and the ultra-male perspective of the porn itself), but I think this is akin to the radfem assertion that all het sex is rape. Theoretically, it is pretty sound, but *practically* it is more or less irrelevant unless one is willing to both reject her own sense of agency and move to a lesbian separatist community. That is, it is hard to argue against the logic behind why all het sex=rape and all porn=degradation of women, but, in practice, I am pretty confident of my ability to enthusiastically consent to a sexual encounter with my partner, just as I know that my own enjoyment of porn as a teenager was not an expression of internalized mysogyny.**
Which is why I keep coming back to your point in part 4. While I do think there is important distinction between the kind of porn that depicts sex and the kind that depicts rape (whether the women is “enjoying” it or not), the fact is that the production of even the most “vanilla” porn is harmful to real women, and, once you have realized that, there is absolutely no moral excuse for continuing to consume it and support the industry that creates it.
* A man with an obsession for only sex-porn (do they exist?) is not, to me, as sinister a figure, even though I wouldn’t want to date one. The simple fact that he has avoided rape-porn despite his large consumption says to me that he at least has a line where he is no longer okay with what he is being shown. Because of that, I think he is not necessarily more misogynistic at his core than the average person and is therefore capable of growth.
** I think it is important to note that my experience of porn as a teenager was much different than yours. If it had ever been used as a weapon against me, I think it’s highly likely that my general perception of it would be much closer to yours (at least partly because it would not have been so easy or natural for me usurp its male perspective).
April 24, 2008 at 1:43 PM
I don’t think that written porn or using the imagination are cheating, because they do not involve bringing another person into the relationship in a sexual way. And I don’t think that it is as big a problem as porn, because no one is being exploited. But aside from the cheating aspect, I am more worried about what porn use says about someone’s ethics and sense of empathy. I do take the stance that all porn degrades women, but not that all sex is rape. I think that’s theoretically unsound and pushes people away from the movement who don’t understand the entirety of what people mean by it. I agree that there are men who have not been totally lost to porn, since I have several friends who used it in the past and have since stopped, having been confronted with the realities of the consequences of their choices.
April 24, 2008 at 4:50 PM
How could I have missed your blog??? Not anymore, you are already on my feeds.
I agree with everything you say, and for the record, I don’t think either imagination, nor literature constitute “porn”. Sure, they contain misogyny, but so does everything else in this world. Though it is important to question WHY women get turned on by misogyny.
April 24, 2008 at 4:59 PM
Free – I think I might recommend you look at some books on sexuality intended for lesbians. These will avoid the whole “look good for your man!” nonsense and might be informative. Also, Tantric Sex for Women by Christa Schulte might be someplace to look. This is more about sexuality in practice, though. I think just reading about feminism in general and thinking about the ways in which your sexuality has been shaped by cultural expectations will lead you toward figuring out what sexuality means to you as a matter of course. Also, I second Levy’s book.
April 24, 2008 at 8:36 PM
Nice Dworkin redux. Very clearly presented for people who’re afraid of her. Thanks for writing all this up.
April 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM
octopod – You may not believe this, and I’m embarrassed to admit it, but I’ve yet to read much of Dworkin aside from a few essays. This actually all came out of my own experience, but maybe I ought to get to reading (as soon as the semester ends, that is).
April 26, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Have you read Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of the Raunch Culture, by Ariel Levy? If you haven’t, I strongly recommend you do so; it seems right up your ally.
April 26, 2008 at 9:45 PM
PS, Josh – Your e-mail address is really cool, and I’m glad to see you’re with me on Japan.
April 26, 2008 at 9:46 PM
I really have to disagree with you slightly.
Tbh I think there’s a fine line between porn which is just there to make you horny, and porn which is there just to degrade women. If that makes sense.
Stuff that’s just sex really doesn’t bother me, it’s when it’s about men dominating women with the use of bondage or all that crap which really gets to me. I can’t even begin to describe how much it sickens me really.
But there’s a new type of porn which girls are getting more and more into, you herd of yaoi or slash? Urban dictionary it if you haven’t, but it’s on the uprise and it’s not Stockholm’s syndrome in any way, it’s just women being able to enjoy something that men have been able to for years.
I hate things like playboy which is just promoting that women should be fake Barbie dolls for mens pleasure, and I also hate it’s male counterpart, Playgirl.
*shrug* I guess porn is a pretty grey area for me, but not all of it is pure evil in my opinion.
April 26, 2008 at 9:51 PM
A brain washed teen – I don’t classify all erotic literature, etc. as porn. What I’m referring to is your everyday internet porn, what goes on in magazines like those you mentioned, etc. I don’t think women reading erotica written with a female audience in mind fits into the general term I’m using. There can be misogynistic undertones in some of it, but I’m really referring to the kinds of porn in which it is clear that women are there to be used and exploited by men with no regard for their feelings or humanity. I sort of delineated that in volume 4 of this series, but maybe I’ll address these other kinds of media at a later date. They are certainly more of a gray area than the vast majority of what I’m calling porn here.
April 26, 2008 at 9:57 PM
I’m glad that’s what you mean, because I totally agree with you full heartedly ^_^
April 26, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Great series and also post – I might link. Thanks.
April 26, 2008 at 11:12 PM
[...] written a series of posts that are an excellent summary of an ethical case against pornography, the latest of which puts paid very simply to the “But some chicks dig it! You’re denying female [...]
April 26, 2008 at 11:19 PM
I’ve never really had a problem with a past partner masturbating to porn on a regular basis, but only because I figured that there were only two choices within mainstream society:
1) the guy who indulges in porn and turns out to be a relatively normal guy in bed, or
2) the moralist or Christian guy who vehemently denies porn and turns out to be a closet pervert in bed.
Maybe I live in a very narrow space of public and personal experience, but…
April 28, 2008 at 1:40 AM
It seems that we sometimes mix up “porn” and “the porn industry”. Is all porn bad? I’m a dyke, I love watching porn that other dykes have made of lesbian couples having hot sex. What about amature porn — couples who submit videos of their own sex lives? I don’t understand how this could harm folks. Does the porn industry exploit women and turn them into objects for men’s enjoyment? Yes. Is this probably totally ####ed up? Yep. But what happens when it is taken out of the industry and made for women?
Is the only way for me to conceptualize myself enjoying porn is because I’ve been brainwashed by men about how my sexuality should be?
April 28, 2008 at 2:58 AM
“It’s odd because women should instinctively sense, when confronted with the vast majority of pornographic images, that what they are seeing is degrading to the human spirit. Evolutionary psychologists can make whatever bullshit claims they want to about men being “naturally” prone to becoming aroused by visual stimulation (which is utter horseshit), but no such claim has been made when it comes to women’s porn use, most likely because it would be absurd to argue that women’s porn use stems from anything other than a quest for acceptance in a world dominated by entitled and oblivious porn-using men.”
I will also add I have been hearing more and more about how older men, specifically fathers, older brothers, etc. will sexually abuse and manipulate young boys by showing them pornography or pornographic images of women. And you know what? Those little boys are initially disturbed, irked, or feel uncomfortable with those images. Why? Because porn is NOT natural for men. Porn is not about “base sexual urges.” It is about sexual power and maintaining sexual hierarchies. It’s about men’s entitlement and women’s subjugation. Period.
“Rather, I think that exposure to sex or depictions of sex will create sexual arousal in most individuals, regardless of the reaction of their higher brain function (subconscious or otherwise). This physical reaction is often a source of grief and confusion for women (and children) who have been raped. For my own part, I know that I have been stimulated by images that, on a higher level, I find disgusting and humiliating. I don’t think that I am alone in this experience.”
I disagree with Laura here. All porn, no matter what it has in it, is anti-woman. It is anti-female sexuality because porn is the commodification of sexuality and sexual experience. In porn, there is a recording or photograph of a woman’s hypersexualized body, or of people having sex (or being raped, abused, etc.). So it’s just an image or recording. There are no actual humans involved WHEN the viewer is masturbating or fantasizing. Furthermore, porn obviously would not exist without capitalism. Capitalism is taking human sex and making it marketable. The viewer is watching the same non-existent people in the video doing the same dead things over and over again. The stimulus is not based on any human connection. It is a fetishization of, an obsession with, images and film, NOT of real human sexuality. As a result, you cannot use porn to “celebrate” someone’s sexuality. Because it’s hollowed out of its essence to be marketable. You are taking someone’s body and sexuality, and making them unhuman or dead (dead as in not there and live in the physical) in porn, and then selling that deadness and lack of real humanness as “sexy” or “sex.” That’s quite scary.
“Women need to start thinking about themselves more and about men less in almost every arena in life. It’s difficult and it goes against everything we’ve been taught, but it’s ultimately the most rewarding path in life, even if it is uncomfortable at times.”
Exactly Nina! I really think we need to focus on the importance of woman-centered thinking. On looking at the ways that even seemingly “gender neutral” concepts and spaces in our society are in fact very male-centered.
April 28, 2008 at 3:25 AM
“Tbh I think there’s a fine line between porn which is just there to make you horny, and porn which is there just to degrade women. If that makes sense.
Stuff that’s just sex really doesn’t bother me,”
A brainwashed teen, ask yourself why you keep equating porn with sex. Let’s think about this seriously. Why are hypersexualized and degrading images of women being equated with SEX?
April 28, 2008 at 5:46 AM
Jamie – That’s a more complicated issue for me. I’ve been thinking a lot about it. I’m not sure I’m willing to go with Twisty and say there’s no erotica that’s not an expression of patriarchy, but I’m on the fence about some of it and I’m going to need to think about it more.
April 29, 2008 at 4:44 AM
“Does the porn industry exploit women and turn them into objects for men’s enjoyment? Yes. Is this probably totally ####ed up? Yep. But what happens when it is taken out of the industry and made for women?”
Jamie, the reason couples are making porn of themselves at home is the RESULT of the porn industry. Porn has become so normalized in our culture thanks to capitalism and the porn industry that we think filming ourselves and putting it on the internet is the “ultimate” in sexual expression/fun.
It cheapens the experience, and it commodifies the people, specifically the women, in it.
Individual people and lesbians are not living in a vacuum away from patriarchal influence. Porn is dehumanizing period.
April 29, 2008 at 5:27 AM
Amen to that … sex tapes are ALWAYS degrading and oftentimes humiliating for the woman because it’s always the male who sells it/posts it on the Internet after the breakup.
Besides, anyone who makes a sextape must be out of their minds. It’s pure kitsch to make a sextape. If you have a sextape, you’re either uneducated and crass or educated but socially dweeby for thinking it’s hardcore to make a Sex Tape. It’s one thing to film your sexual experience with a partner as a mutual project ignited by curiosity and (hopefully) intimacy, but it’s another to make a Sex Tape for the sake of making a Sex Tape.
April 29, 2008 at 3:16 PM
I read “Porn, parts 1-6″ the other day and needed some time to get my answer together.
My one fear is for my 13 year old daughter. If I could keep her in the closet until she’s 18, I could teach her anything but she is out in the day to day world where boys at school are already calling her ‘ugly,’ ‘fat,’ and other names because she is a girl and they think they have a right to do that. I have taught her about sex, and porn (somewhat) and boys and men. I don’t like outside influence on her. It is SO hard to counter!
April 29, 2008 at 3:33 PM
SAAM – I admire you for what you’re doing. I’d be a constant wreck if I had a daughter. The world is becoming a scarier place every day to be a girl. The way adolescent kids treat each other can have such lasting effects, and girls get it so much worse than boys. It’s so hard to find books to offer them, too, because they tend to focus on “how to be hawt” rather than how to accept yourself as you are.
April 29, 2008 at 4:04 PM
I think we’d probably teach our daughter (if we had one) how to use an M67 fragmentation grenade properly. Seriously, she’d at least pack mace.
But we have two boys who we’re trying our damnedest to teach the right ways. Any suggestions? The good news is that my nearly-eight-year-old has no qualms about hanging out with girls. He hasn’t bought the usual girls-are-gross mentality that starts with second graders, thank goodness.
April 29, 2008 at 5:25 PM
I think the best way to teach a boy to treat women with respect is for him to see his father treat his mother well. There’s no better example. I’m the way I am because my dad treated my mom well and they both treated me as if I could do whatever I set my mind to, whether it was something “girls do” or not. Actually, I think my parents actively discouraged gendered behavior.
April 29, 2008 at 9:19 PM
My parents were the same, me and my brothers were raised exactly the same.
I came across this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7364475.stm) I’m not sure weather it’s good or bad that we need a law to tell us that pornography like that should be bad, but it’s a move in the right direction I guess.
April 29, 2008 at 9:34 PM
Hey, at least that’s possible in the UK. Here in the US the courts have allowed some group called Extreme Associates (I know, sounds like a base jumping group or something) to keep making simulated gang rape and snuff films. I have to be honest, I don’t know if I can ever write about those subjects. Just the descriptions in the porn series I just wrote bothered me more than I care to admit. I know it needs to be addressed, but I think maybe people who are into that shit are already too far gone. Maybe I’ll write a post addressed at the legal aspects of it.
April 30, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Yeah, the article on it makes me laugh though, personal freedom my arse. Personal freedom to what? Abuse and rape people?
And I know what you mean, I was reading a fantasy book recently and it involved a plot of a group of people into that kind of thing, and even though the author and the book was condemning it completely, and it wasn’t even that graphic, I just felt kind of sick reading it, knowing that some people actually like it.
May 4, 2008 at 5:04 AM
Hi, just wanted you to read my comment about your observations on pornography on the “Mmm brains” blog. I should have written it here but I got overzealous and wrote it on the spot as a reaction to her sentiments. We all need to support each other more in life, especially for such meaningful endeavors. You really inspire other people’s political passions. Thankfully you have the mental energy some of us may lack. It’s refreshing and welcomed.
May 4, 2008 at 5:15 AM
This is the first time I have read such an astute analysis on the effect of pornography on the whole of society and especially involving intimate,trusting relationships between men and women, in regards to the actual level of respect felt for women when regularly participating in the dehumanizing of them for the sake of some convenient sexual gratification. (That may be a run on sentence.) You are doing crucial, valuable work in the area of raising consciousness about the accepted marketability of women’s sexuality as a successful commodity. I thank you for writing the blog because in just one day of reading, I feel more educated, more vindicated about old arguments with an ex-lover and more excited about finding other websites that are about treating women as actual human beings who deserve respect.
May 11, 2008 at 1:37 AM
“There don’t seem to be a huge number of men who are interested in understanding female sexuality or in relinquishing their perceived right to define what sex is and should be.”
I think you short-suit men in this statement. from my prospective, men seem to be incredibly interested in understanding female sexuality. Clearly, this implies that there is a poor understanding of female sexuality to begin with, But I don’t think that’s a problem with porn, but instead a problem with our education system.
May 11, 2008 at 1:59 AM
You have a right to your own opinion, but I think women who sleep with men get a little more cred on this issue. I do, however, agree that our educational system is blowing it when it comes to explaining sexuality at all, but especially female sexuality.
May 12, 2008 at 4:24 AM
Grim—
I think alot of what you said can be tied to how young boys grow up watching porn now, and how they are repeatedly exposed to sex sequences whose culmination is when the man ejaculates. But even when kids aren’t exposed to porn, the boy-girl sex dynamics always seems to involve the girl wanting to please the boy in such a way that her body becomes the vehicle for this quest. I don’t know if this is the case for boys (from my perspective it doesn’t seem like it), but sometimes it ends up that both the girl and the boy expect this model of behavior to be the norm. Which is really sad.
May 12, 2008 at 2:03 PM
im back again, there is one thing i want to get off my chest .. i HAD to come back because this was BURNING inside and it hurt me to hear such a eloquent person utter something so alien to my sensibilities… our host… whom i had begun to call Nina, until i realized that this was a typo for Nine… and im not using caps, so ‘twisty’ would throw me off her board .. but .. how.. how could ANY free thinking woman or man
not like lord of the rings? i’m calling gandalf!
anyway. im a summarizer. im a mainstream punter who doesnt know much about all this, so i’ll probably get skipped over, since all these posters appear to have experience in these subjects, and indeed i remember hearing most of these arguments back in the 80s … nina .. can you summarize your position on porn? heres what i think i hear
porn isnt illegal, and im a free speech populist
BUT … theres always disclaimers followed by buts
its only viewable in a scrubbed mutually supportive way – in that all participants are feeling and concerned with the others – it would be funny to have a porn scene go on and on and on with each partner going, no.. YOU first … no YOU first .. like that old gag with two oriental types bowing
its NOT viewable if you are a relationship
participants should somehow be scrubbed so that we know for certain they arent doing this because they need the money
nobody buys gares! argument (garedalf) that the only answer to porn is saturation to the point easily bored kids leave it behind just like youtube, which is already bloated and stale ..
anyway. you said (somewhere) you wanted more mainstreamers to comment. i guess i am. im a guy who is interested in everything. but i build planetariums, so all can come over to my weird website too! thanks gare
May 12, 2008 at 3:11 PM
It’s true, I hate LOTR, but as for porn, here’s my summary: I don’t want it banned, I want people to think about its effects on them and on our society and to stop using it of their own volition and for their own benefit.
May 12, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Nine Deuce – thank you very much for this series. I have been exploring feminism for several months, mostly because I, like SAAM, have a daughter for whom I fear – really FEAR, considering all she will be having to deal with as she grows up. 702′s M67 fragmentation grenade sounds really good.
I have been one of those whose feminism was of the I’ll Wear Makeup When I Want To and Make Your Own Damn Sandwich variety with little introspection or underlying philosophy other than my own convenience.
I have been one who though porn was okay, at least the plain and simple porn that I’ve seen, and that those women sure seemed to be enjoying it and said so in interviews.
My researches have brought me to you (and Twisty and many other radical feminists) through the auspices of the Carnival of Feminists. My eyes are opening. Thank you. Great series.
May 12, 2008 at 6:58 PM
RebekahD – I have a few friends with daughters and I’d be effing terrified if I had one. It’s a good thing yours has a mom that is going to try to counteract the insane influence of our present culture for her. The more comments like yours I get, the more hopeful I feel, to be honest. Parents like you, SAAM, and 702 are the people who are going to raise kids that might grow up seeing the bullshit around them for what it is. That’s a good thing. The world just may change.
May 17, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Ah, Porn!
I’ve always liked it, but big parts of it have always disgusted me. The problem is I’m a nice guy. I get horny when I see people having passionate, tender, loving sex. And well, you don’t see that in porn very often. You have to look real hard (but it exists, though mostly in some lesbian porn). It seems to be all about submission and domination, and using “your slut” as a pleasure slave.
I mean, why on earth would I want to “come all over her face”? I don’t get it, all that annoying sticky stuff in her hair, why would either of us want that?
I think the problem is with breaking the taboo. It seems that once the pron industry breaks the “showing sex” taboo, they also break all other taboos, like “disrespect” and “pure egoism”. And it’s sad really so many people deep down want that sort of thing.
Anyway, just my 2 cents…
May 20, 2008 at 2:51 PM
I don’t want it banned, I want people to think about its effects on them and on our society and to stop using it of their own volition and for their own benefit.
I suppose we agree in a roundabout way. Not banning it is the same as making it saturated, because any gas fills all available space uniformly (gare knows science, well) Stop using it of your own volition is similar to what the kids in the high school up the road ARE DOING.. they run across it on youtube, they accidently blunder into it, but since girls and boys now in their generation from what i observe in my 17 yearolds life are totally open about all this, they have no need for it. Its not forbidden. The people worried about porn (it used to be porno .. WHERE DID THE O GO) are those from the previous generations (which conflicts with my image of you, a kid in manhattan still in college, hardly experienced in parenting or what goes on in the heartland, if im wrong im sorry, you may be from peoria and older than me (i turn 55 in july, woo hoo cheap whoppers baby!) baby by the way was not in any way.. oh never mind .. the people worried about porn are the ones who grew up when all this was forbidden. its in the garish (no relation) light of day now. nobody in the class 09 needs porn. no guy does. theyve got informed, fun, more or less equal women coming up with them. this DOESNT MEAN there arent problems of other sorts mind you!
nigel. i mean gare
May 23, 2008 at 4:33 AM
This is a great article. I’d like to see a whole separate diatribe about how society’s idea of sex conforms to men’s “needs”… (When does it start? When is it considered “over”?) Even to the point where non-reproductive sex is frowned upon, despite the fact that women are not designed to orgasm that way… Anyway, I think you made some great points.
…but I like Panic at the Disco. Aww.
May 23, 2008 at 5:37 AM
Hmmm… My 2 cents on porn…
Someone once told me, when I said how horrified I was that my then boyfriend now fiancé has watched porn, that I should assume all men went through a porn phase. Then again, this came from the same person that “doesn’t mind” when guys like to talk dirty to her in bed.
Eventually the things you “don’t mind” doing get more and more extreme.
I wonder, where does the porn end? Because, you see, I also despise the image of women portrayed in magazines. They are just as hyper-sexualised and because they are available in the mainstream, surely they have more of an effect? They stare up at us from every magazine, with heavy-lidded eyes and “underboob”.
And another thing! Why is it that we have all these degrading words for private parts? Boobs, tits, dick, prick… Even the baby words.
If you can call an ear an ear, you can call a vagina a vagina.
May 23, 2008 at 10:49 PM
Have you seen this documentary called Hardcore? I’ve yet to see it, but it sounds like something my pro-porn readers may want to check out. I’m just saying.
May 23, 2008 at 10:52 PM
Patricia – It may be true that young dudes almost all have a porn phase, but what I’m concerned about is the adult men who seem to think they have some kind of right to continue using porn despite the fact that they know what’s ethically wrong with it and despite their partners’ feelings.
I agree about the terminology. It’s a weird commentary on our society’s discomfort with sex as a whole that we can’t seem to find a way to refer to our own body parts that isn’t either negative or infantile. Vagina, vagina, vagina.
May 31, 2008 at 1:53 PM
What about women who get off on gay/lesbian porn? What about trannies?
Wait, if hetero/lesbian porn is oppressing women, then isn’t gay porn oppressing men? I mean, men in gay porn are getting fucked in the ass and fellating one another and jizzing on other men’s faces. That could be considered pretty degrading, no? But I never hear anyone complain.
I like porn. I don’t like violent or cruel porn, but I like to watch people have sex. Male or female. Or some combination. It’s hot.
I also like to watch animals have sex.
Is there something wrong with that, too?
Someguy said:
“I get annoyed by people who say “use your imagination”. You know, if there was no porn around or if it was really hard to access, using my imagination would probably be a good idea. But, it is so much better with actual images and videos. I mean, for me at least, it’s like someone telling me “don’t watch that movie, imagine it”. No, I’d much rather watch a fking movie than imagine it. Look if you have an amazingly vivid imagination, good for you. Not everybody is born with that.”
*Applauds*
Besides, the actors (male or female) get financially compensated. A lot of porn opponents say that women don’t get paid shit for it, but I have yet to see any of them come up with any evidence to prove it. Preferably unbiased, credible evidence, not what another porn opponent says.
May 31, 2008 at 1:59 PM
“…and despite their partners’ feelings.”
Well, I don’t think that I have a right to impose my version of morality on my fiance, just as he doesn’t have a right to do so to me.
I don’t order him to stop watching anal sex, and he doesn’t order me to stop looking at hentai or furry porn. Even though neither of us understands why the other likes what we do.
All that really matters to me is that he doesn’t start acting it out with me. And he doesn’t, so there’s really no problem.
For one of us to demand that the other stop looking at porn, or some types of it, would create resentment. It would in any relationship.
I mean, let’s face it. Monogamy has a serious flaw, and that’s that it gets boring boffing the same person after a couple hundred times, and when you’ve tried every position. Sometimes it’s nice to look at some porn and have a visit with your hand. Keeps things a little more interesting.
May 31, 2008 at 5:04 PM
Gay porn is different. There is a much more tangible sense that women are being used and degraded in most heterosexual porn than there is that men are in gay porn. I know that female porn actors are paid to pretend to be excited by being degraded, but it is usually clear that they are faking it, and I don’t know that the same is true in gay porn. The reason a woman having her face ejaculated on is more degrading than a man having the same done to him is that we live in a misogynistic culture. There is a clear message of disrespect and domination, where in gay porn it’s more about both parties getting off. Women’s sexuality in porn is nearly invisible, but their being reduced to the status of fuck-objects is not.
I suggest you read the rest of this series, especially the 4th installment, if you want the background to this one and my opinion on the supposed compensation women get for participating in porn. It’s a horrifically abusive industry, and it desensitizes men and women to women’s humanity. The rest of the series covers those issues.
As for monogamy, I think we’ve been trained culturally to think that a requisite for a happy relationship is for both partners to be in some kind of hyper-sexual state all the time. It’s not realistic, nor is it probably even desirable. It’s fairly disruptive, if you think about it.
I don’t think it’s right for one partner in a relationship to do something that hurts the other and damages their self esteem, which porn use does in many cases. If someone gets resentful that their “right” to use porn is being taken away, then I suppose that means that they care more about using porn than they do about their partner’s feelings. I’d prefer not to be with someone like that. If you don’t mind (I mean really, deep down, don’t mind), then that’s your choice, but women who do mind ought not be forced to tolerate what I take to be a form of emotional abuse.
May 31, 2008 at 5:29 PM
So, here it is again, another one defending his right to use and abuse. Who cares who these people in the videos are. I’m gonna get off!
And, I don’t know, maybe intimacy with your partner keeps things interesting.
Also, to reply to that guy who uses all caps, I am not some weird ugly lesbian. (Not that I think lesbians are weird, he did). I am a straight women and according to the men I walk by am pretty fucking hot. And, their right, I am. I’ve got the body type that people fuckin pay for- so- I don’t hate the sex industry because I’m jealous of it or feel that I don’t compare. I think it’s degrading plain and simple. It’s degrading to women, it’s degrading to men, and it degrades sex in general.
Oh, and if you think that the sex industry is just a load of people getting their rocks off and getting paid for it; you obviously haven’t spent anytime in it. And if you have, my guess is you’ve got the same issues that the people working in it have. And I feel sorry for you.
To back myself up a bit. I danced for two years. In that time I met a lot of women who were dancers, prostitutes and porn stars. The common thread is that they got their self-worth from how men reacted to them. And most of them believe that it’s perfectly normal for a woman’s body to be used for a man’s pleasure. The pleasure for her lies in her feeling that she has some power over that. So basically, she gets an ego boost from the illusion that she is sexually manipulating them. She’s not in power because she’s manipulating herself to feed his fantasy and maybe getting money in return. The money gets addictive, but you don’t feel proud of how you earned it so it gets wasted. And after you’ve made a few thousand dollars a night for a few years, it doesn’t really matter anymore. One more thing, no one was ever sober. Everyone got either high or drunk while they worked. What does that say about how healthy these people are and where their choice of this type of work is coming from?
So, before you reply in defense of your mindless wanking. Think about what she’s saying won’t you.
May 31, 2008 at 5:53 PM
Regarding interviews, two things: first, do you really think on your porn video that they wouldn’t edit out any part where the women might say that it hurt or that she didn’t like it or had no control and wished she could stop it? Do you think she may be able to verbalize her feelings at that time? It’s not exactly a supportive environment. And, if you’ve ever listened to Howard Stern women do talk about histories of sexual abuse and their laughed at. The whole point of this post from what I gather is that women in the sex industry and in general begin to identify themselves with whose in power. It happened in the antebellum period with slavery. Those who are disempowered identify themselves with those in power because they also want to be in power. I think that’s the same thing here. Women want to believe they like it; if they don’t believe that, they admit they are powerless.
September 7, 2008 at 11:01 PM
[...] Nine Deuce, Rage Against the Man-chine [...]
September 20, 2008 at 3:27 AM
“The reason a woman having her face ejaculated on is more degrading than a man having the same done to him is that we live in a misogynistic culture. ”
I’m not sure what you mean. If a man can be ejaculated without it being degrading, surely a woman can be as well? Or do you mean that in mainstream porn, the intent is to degrade, which it isn’t in gay porn, and that it wouldn’t be a problem if it was done…what’s the word…”respectfully”?
Or is it just because the woman is unable to “respond in kind”?
July 27, 2009 at 9:35 AM
I like Panic at the Disco too. And I don’t appreciate the implication that that makes me an ignorant idiot. A band’s music not being to your taste doesn’t make it utter shit. I’ll forgive, though, because this blog is fascinating.
January 22, 2010 at 9:24 PM
I would have to offer my self as a prime example of what porn does to women. I obsess about my weight, how to get my post pregnancy body back in shape, never being happy no matter how skinny I may get, and sadly a secret hatred of men in which I get bashed for expressing because of the monster that they themselves have created… which just angers me more. I have helped some men in the past see or at least consider what porn does to women, perhaps through sharing my thought process in a step by step fashion in a given scenario of experience. I’m married to a former porn-addict whom has had his stumbles, and me mine on what men consider to be worse than viewing pornography (I have cheated…but not for physical reasons, for emotional) my husband and I are working things out, but always in the back of my mind I am highly suspicious that he is lying, doesn’t find me attractive, or finds other women MORE attractive and is lying to me about not finding other women more attractive. It’s a constant battle to just stay sane. I have been diagnosed with depression, social anxiety disorder (much of which stems from highschool, and my attitude I took in highschool in order to be sure I wasn’t viewed as an object for sexual gratification or catering to the male ego by acting like a damsel in distress), and bipolar disorder. My main triggers in all these things stem from how I’m perceived in levels of attractiveness. My relationships with men in general suffer as I do not trust MOST men, and those that I have, have let me down GREATLY. I try not to carry these feelings into every relationship, but when I’m constantly being reminded that I’m not perceived as beautiful because I don’t match a certain criteria of beauty that Hollywood sets in place it just sets off my triggers all over again. I don’t like not trusting men, I don’t like hating most girls because of their shallow view on life and themselves that they have been conditioned to accept, and I hate trying to pretend that my brain doesn’t question the things it does (such as is it really worth it to doll yourself up for a man whom probably just views you as a glory hole?)…I hate my perception, and the pain that comes with viewing the world as I see it..It would be much easier if I could focus on nothing but selfish desires and thus becoming the positive female that men so enjoy…Which brings me to the question why do men like positive women…probably because it mirrors the way porn makes them feel…No drama, no worries, it’s all smooth sailing and pleasure…WAKE UP!!!! I absolutely LOVE this blog, one in which my husband and his friends would call male-bashing.. Again brings me to another point… Men who can realize that some men are jerks and aren’t guilty of misogynist behaviors are more likely to accept so called male-bashing and accept it for what it is…some guys are jerks… However, ones that take offense… just makes me think that they’ve been guilty of such behavior in their lives…I mean why get mad about something that you don’t do or can’t be categorized doing. That would be like me getting mad at men who make jokes about women who are high maintenance and shop too much…(I choose to stay away from sexual topics on that point because its so muddled with the way our culture is today)
January 22, 2010 at 9:26 PM
EXACTLY JANE!!!! Well said!
January 23, 2010 at 9:23 AM
Men who can realize that some men are jerks and aren’t guilty of misogynist behaviors are more likely to accept so called male-bashing and accept it for what it is…
What is it?
(Please, take question as simple and literal. I accept the male-bashing in the sense that I figure it’s what people here want to do and they’ve got their reasons for it, but I’m not sure what its meaning is beyond anger.)
March 3, 2010 at 6:33 AM
I’ve been saying for ages that porn hurts women. We’re sexual creatures, too, so after a life time of exposure to our cultures version of sex, it’s no wonder women end up being ‘exhibitionists’ or want to be viewed a sex object… they’re just trying to express their sexuality in the ways they have been taught in our society.
But, really, if nobody sees that as wrong, then you are ignoring obvious flaws with in favour of your own gratification. And using lame arguments to support your position. Why can’t some people just cut to the chase & say- “I like it, so I don’t care about what harm it causes” instead of going off on a long-winded diatribe riddled with gramatical errors and flawed observation?
Can a woman climax from being looked at or desired? Her sexuality is limited if that is what it is based on and beyond it she is lost, confused & sexually frustrated. She can find it difficult to even feel sexual if she feels undesirable, leading to sexual dysfunction & inability to climax. I don’t think alot of guys care about this- I think that is actually what they WANT.
Heaps of men claim to be soooo ‘into sex’, but they aren’t, really. They don’t know shit about it. They get all squemish & wierded out by reality. What’s the point of being into porn if you’re not into actual sex? DUH
March 4, 2010 at 1:36 AM
What’s the point of being into porn if you’re not into actual sex?
The same point as watching cop shows if you’re not into getting shot at. Media is a social surrogate. We derive a sense of power and alleviate our social insecurity by identifying with people and situations in television, movies, etc.. Rob Horning wrote a great article on how pornography fits into our commodity-mediated existence (TRIGGER WARNING: Survivors of sexual violence may wish to skip the first paragraph).
April 10, 2010 at 4:39 AM
The difference is that people don’t get shot everyday.
July 1, 2010 at 1:42 PM
I was wondering, due to how easy it is for people to inadvertently end up talking at cross purposes due to a misunderstanding, what exactly you define pornography as.
I always understood pornography as being any piece of media, visual or otherwise, that frankly depicts nudity or sex acts and whose primary purpose is the sexual gratification of the audience. A romance novel with lots of steamy sex scenes is pornography. A yaoi manga (Japanese comics depicting idealized male homosexual relationships produced for a heterosexual female audience–Japanese media are largely classified by target demographic) with graphic images is pornography. An amateur’s modification to a Sims game that adds penises to the male Sims is pornography. Pornography need not necessarily come from a dedicated “sex industry”, it need not necessarily involve a business, it need not necessarily be sold for a profit, and it need not necessarily even involve actual people having actual sex or even getting naked–pornography can be produced with nothing more than a keyboard and an imagination.
I agree that the sex industry, as it exists now, with its role in our patriarchal consumerist society, is misogynistic and destructive. I disagree that all pornography, regardless of its content, audience, or cultural context, is inherently misogynistic and destructive. One of the big problems here is that the vast majority of pornography that exists has originated in only one society, and that society is dominated by patriarchal power structures and a sexist media, making it difficult to analyze pornography outside of the context of the entertainment media machine (perhaps the single most misogynistic component of Western civilization) and its seamy, perverse underground subsidiary the sex industry.
Furthermore, while you addressed lesbian porn, I did not ever see you address gay male porn (as opposed to the aforementioned yaoi, which fetishizes male homosexuality for a heterosexual audience in a sort of flip side of “lesbo” [the fetishistic male fantasy archetype, as distinct from real lesbians] porn), where the producers, actors, and consumers are effectively the same demographic. This is of particular interest to me as I do not consume straight porn, because I am not straight. I would like to hear your perspective on gay porn with male actors produced for a male audience.
And lastly, the idea that porn must always be degrading to women regardless of all variables strikes me as both heteronormative (the sexuality and concerns of homosexuals of either sex are not considered, only sexual relations between men and women are important) and gender essentialist (this is how porn must always be, and not a reflection of male entertainment industry power structures and toxic gender archetypes).
I see the primary problem with pornography as the disgusting sexist power structure it is produced under and the cultural context it operates in. I think that with the removal of patriarchal power structures pornography can ultimately be cleansed of misogynistic abuse, “barely legal sluts”, and bleached bungholes. I think you are not considering the totality of the idea of sexuality-as-entertainment and everything that can exist under that umbrella.
The current products of the sex industry that feature female actors are abominations that degrade the human spirit, but I think that the idea of pornography is a lot broader than the Western sex industry and visual media produced by it. Unfortunately it will take a great deal of time and effort to exterminate the Max Hardcores (trigger warning for readers: don’t look up “Max Hardcore” if you are easily affected by abuse of women. He is really, really, really vile) of the world, including a long-overdue reckoning between Western governments and sex, a subject our leaders seem unwilling to understand or even acknowledge.
August 30, 2010 at 7:37 PM
This is an old thread, but whatever. I have something to say. I’ve decided, because of your posts about porn (I’ve read parts 1-6 so far and will read the rest too), that I’ll no longer be dating men who use porn AT ALL. Or at least, that’s what I will tell my dates. I can only hope that they’ll be honest about their porn use (I realize this is unlikely, but what can I do?). I simply reject it from my life and don’t give a shit what anyone thinks. Zero tolerance.
I posted one of your porn posts on my Facebook and have gotten not one single “like” or comment, which almost never happens. Weird, are all of my 275 friends pro-porn/anti-woman? I don’t know. But evidently none of them are interested in dialoging about it.
Anyway, I’m done with porn users, and if that means I’m never to have a relationship with a man, so be it. So I won’t have sex with men any more, big deal. I’m tired of their selfish crap and their “the world revolves around my orgasm” mentalities. Men suck. So what would I be missing out on? A bunch of future assholes using me for their masturbation? Oh no!
Just thought I’d let you know, 9-2, that you’ve made a difference in my life and I’m glad of it.
August 30, 2010 at 9:11 PM
That makes me very happy to hear. The more of us there are, the more men are gonna have to get with the program.
August 30, 2010 at 9:53 PM
“Remember, everyone used to think slavery was OK, that women shouldn’t get to vote, that cocaine was a good beverage additive, that menthol cigarettes cured colds, and so on.”
This is an excellent point! And it’s bound to be one that will infuriate men who feel ‘entitled’ to women’s bodies. I sense that it’s not so much the sexual content of porn that excites men, but the idea inherent in porn that the whole point is to make sure the woman is hurt in some way. They ‘get off’ on something that is nothing but sadistic. So to me what’s happening is similar to what Andrea Dworkin thought – that men who use porn absolutely hate women and use it to bond with each other. It’s the ultimate male bonding session, no doubt about it. They feel a sense of power when they see women abused and humiliated in porn, and that sense of power is amplified because they know their buddies feel the same thing when viewing it. It’s pretty sick, but that’s the male race for you…
August 30, 2010 at 10:16 PM
Good choice, ocean. Although everyone’s different, I must say — I made a similar one about six months ago and haven’t regretted it.
It’s true, being publicly known to not have sex with pornhounds (and, in my case, openly refusing to have penis-in-vagina or -anus intercourse with -anybody-) will probably do a number on your social life. But believe me, it will be for the better.
You will no longer feel like you’ve inhaled a ton of toxic shit every time you’re around your ‘friends.’ Even if you end up alone in your own apartment (like I have, although mostly by my own choosing), at least you won’t feel poisoned and degraded by other human beings.
Watch out for other women, too. That’s what has hurt me the most. Men, I take for granted are not going to get it. Whenever a woman doesn’t get it, I feel like it’s a stab in my back.
I’m working on it.
August 31, 2010 at 8:52 AM
Nine Deuce,
Thank you for this post. I have never met another woman who has articulated so well the truth about women’s objectification in porn and its links to social oppression of not only women’s sexuality but how a woman defines herself as a human being. I am happy to have joined the ranks of the shunned and ignored that you speak of because I am now thinking about myself in all aspects of my life. And like you said, it is truly the most rewarding path.
August 31, 2010 at 10:36 AM
Cheers Ocean!! Right on! I made that choice a long time ago – it wan’t really a choice, but a necessity. I’ve encountered endless kicks and slaps, insults and attempts at crushing my resolve for it, but it is SO worth it.
And Joy, I really hear you on how devastating it is when women actively prop up and/or promote the normalizing of porn use.
Hecate, you said “I sense that it’s not so much the sexual content of porn that excites men, but the idea inherent in porn that the whole point is to make sure the woman is hurt in some way.” I have been thinking the same thing recently.
I remember when I was a small kid, the boys on our street would catch frogs from a river near by and they would devise all sorts of new and perverse tortures and slow deaths for the frogs, a lot of which involved inserting things into the mouths and anuses of the frogs. There was an element of that cold, detached Nazi medical experiment about it and when they would boast about it after the fact to one another (with us girls looking on, as was the dynamic), I would think that they deserved to die. I wanted to kill them with my bare hands.
Now when I think of men making porn and sharing porn and watching porn (live or video) in groups, like at a stag, I just see those sadistic, entitled, evil little boys playing their sick torture games.
It speaks volumes about the deepening darkness of our culture that so few people can see this for what it truly is.
August 31, 2010 at 10:55 AM
Joy, just so you know… I get why you don’t want it, and I feel like you are completely justified in your life experience…I am not at all saying what is right for me is right for you…so please don’t take my views as a stab on yours…nobody can tell you what is or isn’t right… that is strictly up to you. My views when it comes to men though are different…you see the reason behind that is most men lack empathy, whereas women are forced to live in empathy…I view empathy as a good trait, but only when it forces people together and not apart. Men can feign empathy, but some lack the ability to internalize it by only seeing their views…when a man lacks critical analysis of what he may be doing may be causing harm to others, like in the case of porn…it’s obvious he hasn’t internalized empathy..however to me, if I react in a way that discounts his shame in his use of pornography a shame that even he can’t see…I’m lacking empathy. I absolutely don’t agree with porn use, and have a strong sense that the hidden shame men posses in using pornography is in part due to my discounting his humanity…in essence I will say to a man how his porn use affects me, here he has the choice to open up and let me know how he feels about my feelings..if his feelings discount mine, it is not empathy…if he owns his shame and opens up about how my feelings make him feel sad, it is obvious he has owned his shame… some might perceive it as manipulative..but it’s a knee jerk reaction to uncomfortable feelings.
August 31, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Kristina, I agree with you about empathy. It’s been a huge issue in my dating life. as the men I’ve gotten involved with lately seem completely unwilling to exercise any (at least AFTER they sleep with me). I know they are human beings and are capable of it, but it’s been rinsed out of them by this sense of entitlement – which does not include taking into account other peoples feelings or realities. I think most men (maybe most women too?) see it as a direct threat to their sense of the world revolving around them. I also believe we are all equally capable of it, but some choose not to embrace it (because it’s not seen as a “masculine” trait?).
So when, say, a man I’m dating says he “loves” me and wants a relationship, typically I find out a few months down the road that it had nothing to do with love, but was just a strategy he used to “get” me (into his bed), which is why there’s nothing odd to them about fading away emotionally and regressing the “relationship” to a purely sexual one, and refusing to be accountable for the things they communicated (and subcommunicated) initially. At this point they become obtuse, and completely resistant to reasonable conversations about it. And I’m like, wow, excuuuse me for believing you. I now realize I wasn’t supposed to, that it was all a game.
I think this recklessness and straight-up lying is influenced by their rejection of empathy for the person they’ve become sexually involved with. Empathy then, becomes unnecessary, and/or at cross-purposes to their needs. After they get what they want (which turns out to be nothing but a sexual conquest) they *suddenly* lose their former connection to my emotional realities. So it becomes an effective tool for them that comes in handy in the initial stages of “getting” me, but then disappears in the aftermath. It seems that these men aren’t able to have empathy for the women they sleep with, but plenty for those they WANT to sleep with. And there’s no awareness on their parts of the discrepancies here, as if it’s the most natural thing to them to use empathy for purely selfish reasons, which makes it fake empathy I guess – an acting job.
This makes me think of the Madonna/whore complex, because the distinction is so clearly drawn between women they’ve had sex with and women they haven’t (yet). Those they haven’t slept with are seen as human beings; those they’ve slept with have crossed into the zone of dehumanized playthings. They are unable to note that it’s been the same woman all along, and that they (the men) have categorically placed me on their shit pile, simply because they’ve put their penises into me. Sick. I can’t feel anything but disgust and disappointment at this point. I try to understand the underlying reasons for this, but now *I’m* the one without empathy, because the unjustness of their treatment repels me and makes me see *them* as less-than-human sexheads. So now they’ve not only dehumanized me, I’ve dehumanized them, and it’s only with a lot of distance that I’m able to see their humanity again, if ever.
Everyone loses in this scenario. And for this reason I’ve made a decision to date chastely (until marriage probably), because I won’t have my higher self compromised by this kind of thing. I will not let men of low character make me a lesser person. And sex seems to be the only deciding factor for them. It’s just not worth it to me.
Anyway, I don’t know how all this ties into porn, sorry if I got too far off-track. Just felt like saying that.
August 31, 2010 at 5:36 PM
Joy and Lizor, thank you! I’m Ok with changes to my social life. What concerns me is that I don’t feel confident about my abilities to lay it all out in clear arguments for people who take an opposing (status quo) stance. Probably what I’ll do is direct them here. Really though, anyone with a brain and the ability to reason can see the truth about porn. It’s the willingness that’s the problem. I think men for the most part can see this side of it, but their attachment to porn and their habitual status-quo (i.e. ignorant) thinking overrides their higher intelligence. I think deep down they feel the same aversion to it that we do, but it’s overwritten by hormonal reactions. Nothing I can do about that. I get a lot of flack and a lot of resistance (including flat out silence) to many ideas I present to friends, so that’s nothing new. But I’m not going to make myself unhappy just because of their limitations. People just aren’t all that smart on the whole, which is a big part of why there’s so much resistance to COMPLETELY RATIONAL arguments.
I know that women are complicit, partly because they often buy into the idea that if you’re not in agreement with the majority of men, you’re going to be alone (if you’re heterosexual). This feels threatening to their own happiness. But they may also realize that chances are, they will end up with a porn-user in their own home / intimate relationship, at which point they’ll be forced to deal with the negative impact it has on them personally. I’m dedicated to avoiding this, myself.
August 31, 2010 at 10:34 PM
Thanks lizor,
Unfortunately I’m inclined to think most men are sadistic Nazis. And I didn’t just pull that out of my a$$. It’s the conclusion I’ve come to after a lifetime of abuse from men and reading the experiences of other women like you.
I hope the universe is preparing the darkest karma imaginable for men. They deserve no less!
August 31, 2010 at 10:42 PM
HAHAHA! YEEEESSS!
This is wonderful! Let’s hope it’s true girls!
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4225769
September 1, 2010 at 12:21 PM
@ Hecate
Good riddance, I say! Seriously, the sooner the better.
September 1, 2010 at 4:13 PM
I can agree with that link you posted here Hecate…but I sincerely hope somehow the chromosome morphs men into blubbering balls of mass…that would be some good karma right there…not to die, but to live as women live everyday…
September 1, 2010 at 4:23 PM
Ocean… yes they absolutely are clueless…I hope you don’t think that changes with marriage..if anything it makes you more a piece of property than anything..at least in my experience. I love my husband but he can’t grasp for the life of him why I think he has more of empathy for a dudebro, than his own wife. He’ll say this guy is the man..the same man who made my husband stumble in averting his eyes or thoughts, which in turn dehumanized me, just because this doodbro of his shared a common interest of his (star wars)…so this guy is the man because he shares a like of star wars and I whom share the same interest, am something to be dehumanized…no matter how hard I try to point this out it just leads to empty promises, or empty sorries…he has no clue. I’m really on the fence of where I belong… the porn comment was just to make an easy scenario, it’s one I know all too well. You know, they say when men view scantily clad women the tool section of their brains light up..meaning they think of women as use as opposed to interact…I swear…fucking hopeless
September 1, 2010 at 9:49 PM
Kristina, yeah, that sucks. I feel like guys are more concerned with what other guys think of them than what their own wives and girlfriends think. Or even what they themselves really think on deeper levels. It’s all about ego. Somehow their “manhood” is called into question by them respecting their woman. Sick. I see it very differently from the whole ‘boys will be boys’ crap (which is just stupid ultimately, as if men aren’t capable of self-development). I see male-to-male woman-hating and/or the whole “sure honey *wink wink bro*” thing as a character defect. And it turns me off. If a guy can’t think for himself without feeling like his masculinity is being threatened if he veers from the “dudebro” code, he shrinks down to a pathetic smallness in my eyes. I can’t help it. It’s just unattractive, and ugly, and alienating. Rampant as it is, I still hold a bit of hope that change is possible.
Has your guy read any of the porn posts here? Or Robert Jensen? Maybe that would help him see why it’s harmful, or at least get him to shift his views a tiny bit. That said, I don’t believe in changing men or even expecting them to change. But I don’t think it’s hopeless if the guy has some willingness to look at things honestly. If he has any intelligence, the truth is there for him to know. If he’s too blind or too invested in misogyny, that’s just sad for him. I seem to notice that men aren’t concerned with doing the right thing anymore, but only with “how much can I get away with?” That’s a sign of a shabby character, and in a way, women are left to bring their lazy self-absorbed asses up if they want decent men in their lives. It doesn’t seem like too many people are willing to raise their sons with any sense of right and wrong anymore. Feels like the end of the world as we know it.
Anyway.. I hope you can get through to your husband one of these days. If not, he’ll miss out on an opportunity to grow into a better man. I don’t mean any of this judgmentally really, it’s just what I’m noticing these days in general. Self-indulgence thrives while relationships suffer. Women put their best foot forward while men stand firm in their ignorance and self-obsessed behaviors and tell us this is the best that men have to offer so we might as well lower our standards. As if!
September 2, 2010 at 3:32 PM
I know ocean, you’re being very supportive! I keep working on him, it seems I am able to find balances to keep in which I can suggest things by opening up..I’m not exactly an open person either when it comes to people close to me. I do see him as a powerful ally in the future, and it’s not a fruitless labor..I have changed his views in many ways, and it was mostly because of my caring nature..instead of intellectually bashing him over the head, he is miles away from the butt head he used to be…LOL..and that was just when we were dating that these changes took place… I am considering having him read robert jensen..he’s really into being a good parent for our boys so they don’t suffer the faults he suffered as a boy..any parenting books that anyone knows about that might open eyes to the possibility of finding acceptance of feminism?
September 3, 2010 at 1:02 AM
Lol Valerie and Kristina :D
Yeah, Kristina may have something there. Death is too easy a fate, and real karma is about going back and correcting the pain one has inflicted. And it should quite rightly be an intensely painful process.