Porn Part 6: Stockholm Syndrome

23 Apr

L from Editorializing the Editors posted a comment on one of the blogs in this series referring to the internalization of porn culture by women as a widespread case of Stockholm Syndrome, an apt characterization if there ever was one. I’m of the opinion that women who participate in and defend the production or consumption of pornography have been conditioned by our porn-crazed culture to believe that the choice to capitulate to the porn industry’s demands on women’s sexuality is something that they themselves desire. Don’t get all upset with me and tell me that I’m robbing women of agency. I’m not. I’m arguing that women, consciously or not, choose to participate in their own objectification because the rewards for doing so are better than the difficulty that comes with resisting porn culture’s demands. The parameters are laid down by the forces that be (patriarchy, capitalism, etc.), not by women. Women who choose to participate in porn culture are just exercising what instrumentality they have within a restrictive system.

I’ve suffered through reading, deleting, and even responding to a lot of comments that center on the idea that some women choose to be involved in the making of porn, that some women like to watch porn, that some women like to be treated like the women in porn, that women are “taking control” of some aspects of the porn industry, that there are forms of porn that are not misogynistic, blah fucking blah. There are as many arguments for the continuation of women’s exploitation and subjugation as there are varieties of pornography, and none of them are right. Almost all arguments in defense of porn production and consumption spring from the kinds of libertarian economic and social positions that most people who aren’t comfortable with the religious right but also aren’t comfortable with the idea that their actions have consequences beyond their own lives exhibit. Libertarianism is naive and myopic in almost every sense, and porn is no exception.

Men who use porn know that, deep down, they think it’s odd that the women they’re jerking off to have “chosen” to participate in pornography (more on that concept here). It is odd that a woman would choose to work in porn, would choose to use porn, or would choose to defend men’s and their own porn use to other women. It’s odd because women should instinctively sense, when confronted with the vast majority of pornographic images, that what they are seeing is degrading to the human spirit. Evolutionary psychologists can make whatever bullshit claims they want to about men being “naturally” prone to becoming aroused by visual stimulation (which is utter horseshit), but no such claim has been made when it comes to women’s porn use, most likely because it would be absurd to argue that women’s porn use stems from anything other than a quest for acceptance in a world dominated by entitled and oblivious porn-using men.

I think I’ve got an explanation for why some women get into porn, and maybe even some alternatives to offer to women who are involved in their own objectification simply because they don’t see any other options. Women get the message from a very young age that their value lies in whether they are attractive to men. It’s hammered home by television, movies, ads, fairy tales, toys, music, etc. These outside influences are so strong that they can completely transform female (not to mention male, but I’m tired of talking about men) sexuality into something vastly different from female sexuality in its natural state. Women come to see themselves as if through a lens, as if through the eyes of someone else, after a lifetime of exposure to media that teach them to conceive of themselves in such a way. It is no surprise, then, that many women find that their own sexual arousal is highly dependent on the ways in which others seem to perceive them. Almost everyone is aroused by the feeling of being desired, but in our culture, that tends to become the chief element in women’s arousal. Many women see themselves as if watching from somewhere beyond themselves, and derive their sexual arousal from viewing their own sexuality as if through the eyes of an onlooker. Put simply, women in our culture are conditioned to be aroused by the idea that they can cause arousal in an observer.

It’s not a very big leap from that idea, which I contend exists to some degree in all women, to the idea that a woman would be excited by being viewed as a sexualized object, or by viewing images of other women as sexualized objects. In fact, I’d say that seeing beyond such systematic and forceful conditioning is the big leap, which is why there are so many “sex-positive” “feminists” and women who use and defend the use of porn, and so few outspoken anti-porn feminists. BUT… that doesn’t mean that the pro-porn crowd is right. Remember, everyone used to think slavery was OK, that women shouldn’t get to vote, that cocaine was a good beverage additive, that menthol cigarettes cured colds, and so on. I mean, look at how many people still think Family Guy is a good show and that Panic at the Disco is a good band.

How many times have you heard some woman who prostitutes herself in the pornography industry say that she’s “just an exhibitionist”? It’s exactly this process of women being conditioned to identify with their own objectification that allows such a woman to make that claim, and I wouldn’t argue that she’s being dishonest. What I would argue is that she’s either consciously or unconsciously avoiding thinking past that idea, because doing so would cause some serious emotional discomfort and require some difficult decisions. Participating in your own objectification comes with some major rewards; you get attention (although not respect), you get (limited and questionable) affection, you get a bunch of dudes lusting after you. In short, if you don’t think too hard about it, allowing yourself to be objectified can make you feel valuable and powerful in a system in which women don’t have a lot of access to power (and in which they are fairly consistently undervalued as human beings). Defending men’s right to use porn, and using porn yourself, gets you the approval of men who want nothing more than a woman who is just as into her own objectification as they are. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard a dude tell his friends how pumped he is to have found a girl who is as dirty as a porn “star,” or how excited he is that his girlfriend likes porn as much as he does. It’s funny, though, I’ve never heard one of these same guys tell his friends how stoked he is that his pornified girlfriend is a cool person, or smart, or interesting, or funny…

What does going along with porn culture require of women? I’ve already argued that women, as a result of social conditioning, generally come to be aroused at the thought of arousing a third party, but is that the whole of women’s sexuality? Of course not. Human sexuality is very complicated (I would even argue that female sexuality is more complicated than male sexuality), and there are so many factors involved that I won’t even try to tell anyone what female sexuality “is,” but I will say that I’m pretty sure it involves more than just being aroused by being seen as a sexual object. Porn culture, in tandem with our mainstream media, has taught women and men that the object of sexual interaction is male orgasm, and that everything else that takes place is corollary to that. Even the most indoctrinated of women cannot derive all of their sexual pleasure from arousing men, so this poses a serious problem; women’s sexuality is almost completely ignored in porn, and is treated as a side dish to male sexuality in most other media. That’s ridiculous. Women’s sexuality, the more complicated of the two, is treated as if it were so simple as to be almost non-existent, and women who want to go along with porn culture in pursuit of male acceptance are being forced to make do with having only a very small portion of their own sexuality acknowledged and having the vast majority of their sexual needs ignored.

It’s a dilemma: is it worth the trouble to demand that our sexuality be taken as independent of male sexuality, that our sexual needs be met, and that we be seen as fully human individuals who approach sex with motives that extend beyond the desire to titillate men? It might not be for some people. There don’t seem to be a huge number of men who are interested in understanding female sexuality or in relinquishing their perceived right to define what sex is and should be. For some women, learning to make do with a less-than-perfect sex life might be the easier option when the alternative is risking being shunned, ignored, or called a feminazi, lesbian, or prude for demanding that their sexuality be accorded the consideration men’s sexuality is.

But the only way that will change is if more of us do exactly that. I’m of the opinion that a lot of men, if they actually knew what real female sexuality was about, might find it more interesting than what goes on in porn. I also think that a lot of women would be surprised to find out just how complex and full of possibilities female sexuality is. Instead of thinking about new ways to sexually manipulate men, why not think about new ways to experience your own sexuality? Women need to start thinking about themselves more and about men less in almost every arena in life. It’s difficult and it goes against everything we’ve been taught, but it’s ultimately the most rewarding path in life, even if it is uncomfortable at times.


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206 Responses to “Porn Part 6: Stockholm Syndrome”

  1. Free April 23, 2008 at 10:01 PM #

    Okay, okay. I like what you’re saying. This post really put things into perspective; I’m ready to stop using porn.

    But I’m stuck on this idea of female sexuality.
    I’d like to explore this concept further – perhaps a reference point would be helpful.

    So on that note, I ask of anyone who has an idea:
    What is male sexuality like?
    What is positive about the way men approach sex?
    How is it so multi-faceted?
    What are the elements of sexuality enjoyed by men that women have been neglecting?
    Where can I learn more about this?

    Any bit of guidance would be much appreciated.

  2. Nine Deuce April 23, 2008 at 10:15 PM #

    It isn’t about comparing ourselves to men and trying to model our sexuality after theirs, it’s about thinking about our own sexuality on its own, thinking about what it is that you would like to do, how you most want to express yourself, etc., but on your own terms rather than in pursuance of male approval. All of these questions take time to work out, and they are things you have to work our for yourself over time. I think they key is just realizing that your part in a sexual encounter is just as integral as your partner’s, and that your desires carry just as much weight as his (or hers) do, and then going from there. It may take me a bit, but I’ll get together a list of resources you can have a look at.

  3. Free April 23, 2008 at 10:34 PM #

    I understand.
    But I think the reason I asked was not to use male sexuality as a template. I’m just wondering what a healthy, functioning approach to sex might be… I’ll think more about it… starting from the basics, perhaps.
    One of the most interesting points discussed in this last post was the fact that women are conditioned through the lens of their potential partner. This startling realization lends itself toward the conclusion that women have been engaging in sex for the sole benefit of the other person.
    I definitely don’t want to be having sex for other people. As a core value, I’ve refused to compromise myself for my peers and popularity’s sake, so I can appreciate, now, that it’s a natural leap to take a similar vow not to compromise myself for this institution of sex.
    … a fascinating revelation… Thank you very much, for sharing your ideas.
    I will be much obliged for any resources you might have to offer.

  4. Bill April 23, 2008 at 10:46 PM #

    As a middle-aged man, divorced, with a less-than-sizable *ahem*, I spend the overwhelming majority of my life single.

    I never was huge into porn, but I will admit that I have, at times, been into it. I understand the destructiveness of it. At the same time, I find women to be beautiful, and consequently, I end up feeling stimulated by some images.

    As someone trying to do the right thing, this causes me a great deal of guilt. If I participate in masterbation, I am defiling someone, whether it is an actual human through a visual image, or a conceptual human through a visualized imagining.

    Unfortunately, if I don’t occassionally “let off some steam”, I become profundly, suicidally bitter and engage in self-destruction.

    At this point, I’m in a dilemna. How can a hetro man be a good person, and at the same time cope with “the urges”? Is it even possible? Or is our mere existence such a destructive negative that our only positive action is to remove ourselves?

  5. Nine Deuce April 23, 2008 at 11:20 PM #

    Bill – The answer is to use your imagination and not create demand in the porn industry.

  6. Nine Deuce April 23, 2008 at 11:23 PM #

    Free – It’s OK to have sex for other people, provided that they are having sex for you (meaning you both want to do it because you both want to please each other). The whole point is that sex should be a vehicle for the expression of affection, but that requires the participants to meet as equals and to empathize with each other. I think sex under those conditions has a world of potential beyond what takes place in most relationships in which sex emulates the dynamic in porn.

  7. josh goble April 23, 2008 at 11:34 PM #

    you sound angry, hirsute and, I would hazard a guess, a bit portly.

  8. Nine Deuce April 23, 2008 at 11:43 PM #

    Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You sound like you forgot you have a Shift key. Nice try on the insults, though. They’re usually the last resort of people who have nothing to say in response to my actual arguments. If I had a dime for every time some asshole thought he could obviate all of my valid points by telling me that I’m ugly (and therefore worthless), I’d have enough money for a 40 of St. Ides. Keep it up, bro. You’re only proving my points for me.

  9. L April 23, 2008 at 11:48 PM #

    Bill, masturbation and using porn are not the same thing. Masturbate away. Use your imagination to its fullest extent. No one’s going to know what you fantasized about last night unless you tell them, and no feminist I know is a thought police officer. Just don’t use porn to get off and don’t treat the real women in your life (i.e., the ones not in your head) like they should somehow live up to your fantasies. Maybe I’m wrong, but that doesn’t seem difficult to me. I have masturbation fantasies and I don’t use porn and I don’t treat my partner as if he can or should fulfill those fantasies. Sometimes those fantasies aren’t the most uplifting ones ever, which is why I don’t share them. But at least if I’m just using my brain, I’m not literally watching the oppression of a woman on my screen.

    Nine Deuce, thanks for the link-back! I agree with everything you’ve written so far. This discussion is making me think about The Open-Source Boob Project. The story goes, a coed circle of friends decided that they liked and/or were okay with touching the women’s breasts/having their breasts touched. This group turned it into The Project and took it to a convention where you could opt in to have folks ask to touch your breasts. There’s all sorts of fail embedded into this project from start to finish. But there are sex-pozzers claiming that no one is talking about the women who “just are” exhibitionists! and how much they might be enjoying being touched! I think what you have to say here would fit very well into the discussion surrounding the Project, even though this project isn’t exactly porn (though it’s not far off). I just keep going back to what Twisty says: if it’s something the dudes expect anyway, it’s probably not actually empowering (just empowerfulling) and it’s highly, highly unlikely to be a feminist act.

    Let folks touch your boobs, be in porn, enjoy it, whatever, just don’t shake it in my face and say that you’re a feminist for it or that you’re empowering other women or that, at the very least, you’re not hurting other women. Embracing a sexuality or a sexual attitude that is in line with what the patriarchy wants us to embrace is highly suspect as a “feminist move.”

  10. josh goble April 24, 2008 at 12:03 AM #

    easy target=cheap shot. I haven’t seen anything here that hasn’t been said better by Andrea Dworkin, when, I would hazard a guess, you were in earth-friendly cloth diapers. If not a gleam in your Pater Familius’ ocular orb…..

    I guess if I admit to being hung like a gerbil and “masterbating” my idiotsyncratic punctuation and crappy typing would be acceptable. Realistically, anyone on a blog offering up “comments” is, on at least one level, jerking off.

    I feel so dirty now.

  11. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 12:17 AM #

    Josh, I’m trying to present things to people in terms they can get down with. I’m a fucking populist, man. If you think Dworkin said it better, read her. But really, who are you to give writing advice?

    Also, my parents weren’t hippies. They were all about plastic diapers, and neither of them has ever heard of Andrea Dworkin.

    Your typing is not idiosyncratic, it’s incorrect.

  12. Bill April 24, 2008 at 1:12 AM #

    “Women need to start thinking about themselves more and about men less in almost every arena in life.”

    ————————-

    I should follow the corollary of this advice. I need to quit pressuring and hating myself for being too shy and polite to meet a lot of women. Focus on myself and my needs, quit worrying because I don’t physically or financially “measure up” to Bill Gates, Matthew McConaughey or the godawful “Smilin’ Bob” character.

    Perhaps then, someday a smart, strong, good-hearted woman may look at this loopy, shy, forty-sumptin’ guy and decide “He might be fun to have around”.

    Thank you for this blog. It has given me a lot to think about and hopefully grow with!

  13. someguy April 24, 2008 at 1:24 AM #

    I get annoyed by people who say “use your imagination”. You know, if there was no porn around or if it was really hard to access, using my imagination would probably be a good idea. But, it is so much better with actual images and videos. I mean, for me at least, it’s like someone telling me “don’t watch that movie, imagine it”. No, I’d much rather watch a fking movie than imagine it. Look if you have an amazingly vivid imagination, good for you. Not everybody is born with that.

  14. Bill April 24, 2008 at 1:26 AM #

    Josh,

    I may not be in possession of what society considers “adequate lumber”, but at least I have a brain, heart, and the courage to recognize and work on my weaknesses.

    Try it…if you dare!

  15. K B April 24, 2008 at 1:58 AM #

    The point, someguy, is that “using your imagination” needs not to be the alternative, but the rules, because there is no way to watch the movie you’d prefer not to have to imagine without women getting hurt for it – which begs the question, “Would you prefer to abuse women while having easy masturbation fodder, or to respect women while having to (gasp!) imagine the acts or not picture anything at all?” to which the answer, if you choose to continue insisting that you don’t want to picture a movie that you have set before you, is “the former”.

  16. bonobobabe April 24, 2008 at 3:09 AM #

    someguy, first of all, expecting someone to make a movie so you don’t have to exert any brain cells by imagining something with your own mind is lazy. But probably more importantly (leaving aside the fact that commodification and abuse of women is THE most important issue), when you fantasize you get what you want, not what someone decides you want.

    Do I want to look at some plastic-surgery enhanced woman who doesn’t even look human being porked by some short, fat, bald, hairy, ugly creep whose only positive attribute is his 9-inch schlong? Hell, no.

    Are porn producers ever going to make a porn movie showing me having sex with Spiderman? No. Can I fantasize about it? Yes.

    When I fantasize, I can have sex with anyone I want. I can change it up if it’s not working.

    For me, it’s the same as knitting. If I go to the store to buy a hat, I can only choose from what’s being offered. If I knit a hat, I can make it however I want.

    It is difficult to use your imagination if you’ve been spoon-fed images for a long time. It’ll take a while, but then you’ll be conjuring up all sorts of scenarios that’ll curl your toes.

  17. bonobobabe April 24, 2008 at 3:23 AM #

    Nine Deuce, you might want to check out those links. That clitoris site seems to be encouraging women to shave their pubic hair. Here’s a portion of it. It made me uncomfortable.

    “Having short or no pubic hair can have its advantages during partner sex. First your partner may prefer it and find it sexually stimulating. As a result they find you more desirable. A woman’s partner may prefer to be able to see what they are about to lick with their tongue and insert their fingers or penis into. A thick growth of pubic hair may obscure one’s view of a woman’s genitals and cause you to be curious or even fearful of what lies behind. Women who like oral sex often find it more enjoyable when their sensitive skin is directly exposed to their partner’s tongue and not protected by a layer of hair. Their partner also does not have to worry about getting hair in their mouth. Some women like to shave because of sexual roles they act out, the naughty schoolgirl, the submissive slave, or the seductive flasher. The trimming and shaving of the pubic hair is just one way of enhancing sex, solo and with a partner.”

  18. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 3:31 AM #

    Bonobobabe – Touche. I need to be more careful with these links. I didn’t read everything on the site, so let me publicly un-recommend that one.

    Does anyone know of anything I can point Free to?

  19. Free April 24, 2008 at 4:10 AM #

    On the subject of feminism, I had bookmarked Ariel Levy’s book “Female Chauvinist Pigs” a while ago, I think I’ll start there. It was referenced on Wikipedia, so… that may or may not be a good thing. It’s a start. (Still searching for ideas on the sexuality part.)

    And in response to the conversation between you and Josh, I for one totally appreciate that this blog is being toned down for newer and younger audiences, like myself. Seasoned feminist discourse is way too inundating, I’ll get there eventually but I need my baby steps. A populist approach can pave the way.

  20. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 4:11 AM #

    I promised long ago to write this blog for a general audience. It’s a fine line sometimes; I have a hard time resisting resorting to using terms that most rad feminists understand the nuances of but that sound too extreme to laypeople who don’t know the entirety of their meaning. I want to both discuss feminist issues with other feminists, and present some feminist ideas in palatable terms to thoughtful people who may not yet identify as feminists. I do my best.

  21. Izzy April 24, 2008 at 4:26 AM #

    This post is great (actually, the whole series). When getting into the porn/anti-porn debate, it always seems to go back to “Well some women enjoy it.” I, baffled by the idea that anyone could truly enjoy being dehumanized, can never find a good way to keep that from kicking the debate into pointless circular arguments. Thanks for putting the idea into words!

  22. Laura April 24, 2008 at 4:36 AM #

    I agree that the porn industry is, by nature, destructive and that its product very much contributes to perpetuating misogyny in our culture. That said, you seem to have a very rigid understanding of the “average” woman’s sexuality and reaction to porn that I’d like to address.

    The fact is that many, many women use porn — often not the visual variety, but the market for “romance novels” (with widely varying levels of misogyny) cannot be denied. Even beyond this rather stereotypical example, one must only look to fandom to find myriad examples of literary porn (both slash and het) produced and consumed almost exclusively by women. Perhaps I am hopelessly naive, but I don’t think the enjoyment women get out of these forms of porn necessarily hinge on the objectification of the female body (this is especially evident when one considers slash fiction).

    Rather, I think that exposure to sex or depictions of sex will create sexual arousal in most individuals, regardless of the reaction of their higher brain function (subconscious or otherwise). This physical reaction is often a source of grief and confusion for women (and children) who have been raped. For my own part, I know that I have been stimulated by images that, on a higher level, I find disgusting and humiliating. I don’t think that I am alone in this experience.

    Thus, I don’t that “Stockholm Syndrome” is the *reason* why women enjoy watching porn. At best, it only allows them to use material in their pursuit of arousal or orgasm that might normally be offensive to them.

    But visual and literary forms of porn are fundamentally different, right? Absolutely. The general trend that porn-for-men=visual and porn-for-women=literary is, in my opinion, a self-perpetuating social construct. As you pointed out, evolutionary psychologists love this dichotomy because it gives them more (perceived) ammo in their quest to prove that gender is biological. Putting aside their general douchebaggery, however, the fact remains that literary porn is, largely, created and consumed by women; while visual porn is created for men.

    Thus, the “male perspective” is assumed in most visual porn. In much of hardcore porn, this is manifested as intense misogyny and trash-ification of women. However, in a lot of mainstream porn the male perspective is limited to a focus on the face and body of the female participant(s). In these cases, I think a woman (especially a lesbian and/or feminist) can impose her own perspective on the porn, rendering it merely a tool for her own sexual gratification.

    Which would be great, except that the other main difference between visual and literary porn is that visual porn requires real live human beings whose lives are (likely) being ruined. Visual porn may be more stimulating, but the human cost just isn’t worth it. I won’t go into this further because you’ve already covered it pretty exhaustively during this series.

    As for men, even if it were not for the above concerns, I’m not sure that there’s a “safe” way for them to watch any kind of visual porn, especially in the case of young boys. Being male, they do not have any impetus for thwarting the inherent male perspective and, thus, are very susceptible to subtle and not-so-subtle misogynistic themes. Further, I think they are less equipped to know where to draw the line when porn becomes explicitly about rape and not about sex. As you said, they see the woman “enjoying” it and reason that degradation, humiliation, and subjugation are normal components of sex.**

    In conclusion … well, I’m not sure I’ve really said anything of worth, but I just wanted to organize and share my ideas on this on this subject, as I’m pretty new to thinking critically about it and am at the stage where communication is necessary to move forward. I also apologize if I’ve broken any blog-etiquette with this post — I’m very new to reading blogs, and I’ve never commented on an entry before.

    * As a side note, I reject the idea that the use of aids for masturbation is cheating, whether those aids be toys, porn, or fantasies (based on real people or otherwise). I think most people would be happier if their partners did not masturbate at all, but, in my opinion, this is a insecure and selfish instinct that must be overcome if the relationship is to be healthy.

    ** I’m not arguing, by the way, that this can’t happen to women who watch porn as well — but I think this is a possible *result* of exposure to porn, not the reason why a woman might enjoy it in the first place. I also think that the adult feminist is pretty well protected from this eventuality and that even young girls with sufficiently strong feminist instincts are unlikely to fall victim to it.

  23. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 4:44 AM #

    I don’t think using masturbatory aids is cheating, but I do think that using porn, which involves a person outside of the relationship being used in a sexual manner, is inappropriate for someone in a relationship, if only because it harms the emotional bond in the relationship and can lead to a sense of betrayal. Toys don’t run that risk, nor do fantasies. I don’t care whether a partner masturbates at all. It’s natural and completely acceptable. What I take issue with is someone using images of women being degraded to do so, because that says something about that person that tells me I ought not to be with them.

  24. K B April 24, 2008 at 5:11 AM #

    I think you make excellent points, Laura, and they do a very good job of supplementing the main post and pre-empting any hole-poking in its points. It is interesting that you brought up literary porn, and its use by women kind of underlines the important assertion that visual images are *not* needed…

  25. someguy April 24, 2008 at 5:44 AM #

    For me, it’s the same as knitting. If I go to the store to buy a hat, I can only choose from what’s being offered. If I knit a hat, I can make it however I want.

    ——————-

    I haven’t the slightest interest or inclination to knit hats (or whatever). Sure if I wanted a hat, knitting one myself would give me more flexibility and control but I’m quite happy with the vast range of hats on sale in stores that are probably much better than anything I will ever be able to make. Anyway, enough about hats.

  26. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 5:51 AM #

    Yes, but wouldn’t it be better to make your own hat, knowing that the other ones were made by sweatshop workers who were being abused and exploited? Read my 4th post on porn for more on this.

  27. Laura April 24, 2008 at 12:58 PM #

    Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post, Nine. I am curious — what is your position on written porn use (primarily in women) as cheating? If you think it is not okay, how do you distinguish it from using one’s imagination?

    If you do think it’s okay, why? Because there are not actual women involved? In my own experience, the men and women I’ve talked to don’t attach any more emotional significance to the people in visual porn than they do in written porn. In fact, I think written porn, for women anyway, carries a much higher risk of infidelity. I haven’t got anything to back this up, but it seems to me that a woman in the slash community, for instance, is much more like to fixate upon a particular character than the average man is to fixate upon a particular porn actress.

    I do absolutely think that fixating upon any actress/actor or character (written or otherwise) is a form of cheating and quite unhealthy to a relationship. I just don’t see evidence that porn is any more likely to cause such a fixation than the average TV show. On the other hand, I do think a little less disturbing for a man to become obsessed with a TV star vs. a porn star, but that isn’t, for me at least, a function of the cheating aspect.

    For me, the reason it’s more disturbing is that when you look at a man whose porn use is not sporadic, is not occasional — I think the poisoning effect that we’ve discussed is obviously concentrating in him, even if his porn of choice is not of the rape variety. And especially if it *is* of the rape variety, I absolutely agree with you — I don’t want that kind of person anywhere near my life.*

    But I choose to believe that the kind of man that watches hardcore porn constantly and without regret is much less common than Cosmo and Men’s Health would have us believe. I think a lot of men are like Bill — they use it occasionally, and they aren’t necessarily okay with the type that sets out to degrade women. I don’t think there is anything really wrong with men like this — as long as they are willing to give it up once someone relieves them of the misconception that porn actresses “love sex” and that the porn industry is good (or at least neutral) for women.

    I absolutely take your point that all (visual) porn, in some sense, degrades women (because of the male perspective of society as a whole and the ultra-male perspective of the porn itself), but I think this is akin to the radfem assertion that all het sex is rape. Theoretically, it is pretty sound, but *practically* it is more or less irrelevant unless one is willing to both reject her own sense of agency and move to a lesbian separatist community. That is, it is hard to argue against the logic behind why all het sex=rape and all porn=degradation of women, but, in practice, I am pretty confident of my ability to enthusiastically consent to a sexual encounter with my partner, just as I know that my own enjoyment of porn as a teenager was not an expression of internalized mysogyny.**

    Which is why I keep coming back to your point in part 4. While I do think there is important distinction between the kind of porn that depicts sex and the kind that depicts rape (whether the women is “enjoying” it or not), the fact is that the production of even the most “vanilla” porn is harmful to real women, and, once you have realized that, there is absolutely no moral excuse for continuing to consume it and support the industry that creates it.

    * A man with an obsession for only sex-porn (do they exist?) is not, to me, as sinister a figure, even though I wouldn’t want to date one. The simple fact that he has avoided rape-porn despite his large consumption says to me that he at least has a line where he is no longer okay with what he is being shown. Because of that, I think he is not necessarily more misogynistic at his core than the average person and is therefore capable of growth.

    ** I think it is important to note that my experience of porn as a teenager was much different than yours. If it had ever been used as a weapon against me, I think it’s highly likely that my general perception of it would be much closer to yours (at least partly because it would not have been so easy or natural for me usurp its male perspective).

  28. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 1:43 PM #

    I don’t think that written porn or using the imagination are cheating, because they do not involve bringing another person into the relationship in a sexual way. And I don’t think that it is as big a problem as porn, because no one is being exploited. But aside from the cheating aspect, I am more worried about what porn use says about someone’s ethics and sense of empathy. I do take the stance that all porn degrades women, but not that all sex is rape. I think that’s theoretically unsound and pushes people away from the movement who don’t understand the entirety of what people mean by it. I agree that there are men who have not been totally lost to porn, since I have several friends who used it in the past and have since stopped, having been confronted with the realities of the consequences of their choices.

  29. Mary Tracy9 April 24, 2008 at 4:50 PM #

    How could I have missed your blog??? Not anymore, you are already on my feeds.

    I agree with everything you say, and for the record, I don’t think either imagination, nor literature constitute “porn”. Sure, they contain misogyny, but so does everything else in this world. Though it is important to question WHY women get turned on by misogyny.

  30. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 4:59 PM #

    Free – I think I might recommend you look at some books on sexuality intended for lesbians. These will avoid the whole “look good for your man!” nonsense and might be informative. Also, Tantric Sex for Women by Christa Schulte might be someplace to look. This is more about sexuality in practice, though. I think just reading about feminism in general and thinking about the ways in which your sexuality has been shaped by cultural expectations will lead you toward figuring out what sexuality means to you as a matter of course. Also, I second Levy’s book.

  31. octopod April 24, 2008 at 8:36 PM #

    Nice Dworkin redux. Very clearly presented for people who’re afraid of her. Thanks for writing all this up.

  32. Nine Deuce April 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM #

    octopod – You may not believe this, and I’m embarrassed to admit it, but I’ve yet to read much of Dworkin aside from a few essays. This actually all came out of my own experience, but maybe I ought to get to reading (as soon as the semester ends, that is).

  33. aegyptus April 26, 2008 at 3:24 PM #

    Have you read Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of the Raunch Culture, by Ariel Levy? If you haven’t, I strongly recommend you do so; it seems right up your ally.

  34. Nine Deuce April 26, 2008 at 9:45 PM #

    PS, Josh – Your e-mail address is really cool, and I’m glad to see you’re with me on Japan.

  35. A brain washed teen April 26, 2008 at 9:46 PM #

    I really have to disagree with you slightly.

    Tbh I think there’s a fine line between porn which is just there to make you horny, and porn which is there just to degrade women. If that makes sense.

    Stuff that’s just sex really doesn’t bother me, it’s when it’s about men dominating women with the use of bondage or all that crap which really gets to me. I can’t even begin to describe how much it sickens me really.

    But there’s a new type of porn which girls are getting more and more into, you herd of yaoi or slash? Urban dictionary it if you haven’t, but it’s on the uprise and it’s not Stockholm’s syndrome in any way, it’s just women being able to enjoy something that men have been able to for years.

    I hate things like playboy which is just promoting that women should be fake Barbie dolls for mens pleasure, and I also hate it’s male counterpart, Playgirl.

    *shrug* I guess porn is a pretty grey area for me, but not all of it is pure evil in my opinion.

  36. Nine Deuce April 26, 2008 at 9:51 PM #

    A brain washed teen – I don’t classify all erotic literature, etc. as porn. What I’m referring to is your everyday internet porn, what goes on in magazines like those you mentioned, etc. I don’t think women reading erotica written with a female audience in mind fits into the general term I’m using. There can be misogynistic undertones in some of it, but I’m really referring to the kinds of porn in which it is clear that women are there to be used and exploited by men with no regard for their feelings or humanity. I sort of delineated that in volume 4 of this series, but maybe I’ll address these other kinds of media at a later date. They are certainly more of a gray area than the vast majority of what I’m calling porn here.

  37. A brain washed teen April 26, 2008 at 9:57 PM #

    I’m glad that’s what you mean, because I totally agree with you full heartedly ^_^

  38. notawhisper April 26, 2008 at 10:23 PM #

    Great series and also post – I might link. Thanks.

  39. chlorophyll April 26, 2008 at 11:19 PM #

    I’ve never really had a problem with a past partner masturbating to porn on a regular basis, but only because I figured that there were only two choices within mainstream society:

    1) the guy who indulges in porn and turns out to be a relatively normal guy in bed, or

    2) the moralist or Christian guy who vehemently denies porn and turns out to be a closet pervert in bed.

    Maybe I live in a very narrow space of public and personal experience, but…

  40. Jamie April 28, 2008 at 1:40 AM #

    It seems that we sometimes mix up “porn” and “the porn industry”. Is all porn bad? I’m a dyke, I love watching porn that other dykes have made of lesbian couples having hot sex. What about amature porn — couples who submit videos of their own sex lives? I don’t understand how this could harm folks. Does the porn industry exploit women and turn them into objects for men’s enjoyment? Yes. Is this probably totally ####ed up? Yep. But what happens when it is taken out of the industry and made for women?

    Is the only way for me to conceptualize myself enjoying porn is because I’ve been brainwashed by men about how my sexuality should be?

  41. Lara April 28, 2008 at 2:58 AM #

    “It’s odd because women should instinctively sense, when confronted with the vast majority of pornographic images, that what they are seeing is degrading to the human spirit. Evolutionary psychologists can make whatever bullshit claims they want to about men being “naturally” prone to becoming aroused by visual stimulation (which is utter horseshit), but no such claim has been made when it comes to women’s porn use, most likely because it would be absurd to argue that women’s porn use stems from anything other than a quest for acceptance in a world dominated by entitled and oblivious porn-using men.”

    I will also add I have been hearing more and more about how older men, specifically fathers, older brothers, etc. will sexually abuse and manipulate young boys by showing them pornography or pornographic images of women. And you know what? Those little boys are initially disturbed, irked, or feel uncomfortable with those images. Why? Because porn is NOT natural for men. Porn is not about “base sexual urges.” It is about sexual power and maintaining sexual hierarchies. It’s about men’s entitlement and women’s subjugation. Period.

    “Rather, I think that exposure to sex or depictions of sex will create sexual arousal in most individuals, regardless of the reaction of their higher brain function (subconscious or otherwise). This physical reaction is often a source of grief and confusion for women (and children) who have been raped. For my own part, I know that I have been stimulated by images that, on a higher level, I find disgusting and humiliating. I don’t think that I am alone in this experience.”

    I disagree with Laura here. All porn, no matter what it has in it, is anti-woman. It is anti-female sexuality because porn is the commodification of sexuality and sexual experience. In porn, there is a recording or photograph of a woman’s hypersexualized body, or of people having sex (or being raped, abused, etc.). So it’s just an image or recording. There are no actual humans involved WHEN the viewer is masturbating or fantasizing. Furthermore, porn obviously would not exist without capitalism. Capitalism is taking human sex and making it marketable. The viewer is watching the same non-existent people in the video doing the same dead things over and over again. The stimulus is not based on any human connection. It is a fetishization of, an obsession with, images and film, NOT of real human sexuality. As a result, you cannot use porn to “celebrate” someone’s sexuality. Because it’s hollowed out of its essence to be marketable. You are taking someone’s body and sexuality, and making them unhuman or dead (dead as in not there and live in the physical) in porn, and then selling that deadness and lack of real humanness as “sexy” or “sex.” That’s quite scary.

    “Women need to start thinking about themselves more and about men less in almost every arena in life. It’s difficult and it goes against everything we’ve been taught, but it’s ultimately the most rewarding path in life, even if it is uncomfortable at times.”

    Exactly Nina! I really think we need to focus on the importance of woman-centered thinking. On looking at the ways that even seemingly “gender neutral” concepts and spaces in our society are in fact very male-centered.

  42. Lara April 28, 2008 at 3:25 AM #

    “Tbh I think there’s a fine line between porn which is just there to make you horny, and porn which is there just to degrade women. If that makes sense.

    Stuff that’s just sex really doesn’t bother me,”

    A brainwashed teen, ask yourself why you keep equating porn with sex. Let’s think about this seriously. Why are hypersexualized and degrading images of women being equated with SEX?

  43. Nine Deuce April 28, 2008 at 5:46 AM #

    Jamie – That’s a more complicated issue for me. I’ve been thinking a lot about it. I’m not sure I’m willing to go with Twisty and say there’s no erotica that’s not an expression of patriarchy, but I’m on the fence about some of it and I’m going to need to think about it more.

  44. Lara April 29, 2008 at 4:44 AM #

    “Does the porn industry exploit women and turn them into objects for men’s enjoyment? Yes. Is this probably totally ####ed up? Yep. But what happens when it is taken out of the industry and made for women?”

    Jamie, the reason couples are making porn of themselves at home is the RESULT of the porn industry. Porn has become so normalized in our culture thanks to capitalism and the porn industry that we think filming ourselves and putting it on the internet is the “ultimate” in sexual expression/fun.
    It cheapens the experience, and it commodifies the people, specifically the women, in it.
    Individual people and lesbians are not living in a vacuum away from patriarchal influence. Porn is dehumanizing period.

  45. chlorophyll April 29, 2008 at 5:27 AM #

    Amen to that … sex tapes are ALWAYS degrading and oftentimes humiliating for the woman because it’s always the male who sells it/posts it on the Internet after the breakup.

    Besides, anyone who makes a sextape must be out of their minds. It’s pure kitsch to make a sextape. If you have a sextape, you’re either uneducated and crass or educated but socially dweeby for thinking it’s hardcore to make a Sex Tape. It’s one thing to film your sexual experience with a partner as a mutual project ignited by curiosity and (hopefully) intimacy, but it’s another to make a Sex Tape for the sake of making a Sex Tape.

  46. SAAM April 29, 2008 at 3:16 PM #

    I read “Porn, parts 1-6″ the other day and needed some time to get my answer together.
    My one fear is for my 13 year old daughter. If I could keep her in the closet until she’s 18, I could teach her anything but she is out in the day to day world where boys at school are already calling her ‘ugly,’ ‘fat,’ and other names because she is a girl and they think they have a right to do that. I have taught her about sex, and porn (somewhat) and boys and men. I don’t like outside influence on her. It is SO hard to counter!

  47. Nine Deuce April 29, 2008 at 3:33 PM #

    SAAM – I admire you for what you’re doing. I’d be a constant wreck if I had a daughter. The world is becoming a scarier place every day to be a girl. The way adolescent kids treat each other can have such lasting effects, and girls get it so much worse than boys. It’s so hard to find books to offer them, too, because they tend to focus on “how to be hawt” rather than how to accept yourself as you are.

  48. syndicalist702 April 29, 2008 at 4:04 PM #

    I think we’d probably teach our daughter (if we had one) how to use an M67 fragmentation grenade properly. Seriously, she’d at least pack mace.

    But we have two boys who we’re trying our damnedest to teach the right ways. Any suggestions? The good news is that my nearly-eight-year-old has no qualms about hanging out with girls. He hasn’t bought the usual girls-are-gross mentality that starts with second graders, thank goodness.

  49. Nine Deuce April 29, 2008 at 5:25 PM #

    I think the best way to teach a boy to treat women with respect is for him to see his father treat his mother well. There’s no better example. I’m the way I am because my dad treated my mom well and they both treated me as if I could do whatever I set my mind to, whether it was something “girls do” or not. Actually, I think my parents actively discouraged gendered behavior.

  50. A brain washed teen April 29, 2008 at 9:19 PM #

    My parents were the same, me and my brothers were raised exactly the same.

    I came across this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7364475.stm) I’m not sure weather it’s good or bad that we need a law to tell us that pornography like that should be bad, but it’s a move in the right direction I guess.

  51. Nine Deuce April 29, 2008 at 9:34 PM #

    Hey, at least that’s possible in the UK. Here in the US the courts have allowed some group called Extreme Associates (I know, sounds like a base jumping group or something) to keep making simulated gang rape and snuff films. I have to be honest, I don’t know if I can ever write about those subjects. Just the descriptions in the porn series I just wrote bothered me more than I care to admit. I know it needs to be addressed, but I think maybe people who are into that shit are already too far gone. Maybe I’ll write a post addressed at the legal aspects of it.

  52. A brain washed teen April 30, 2008 at 2:42 PM #

    Yeah, the article on it makes me laugh though, personal freedom my arse. Personal freedom to what? Abuse and rape people?

    And I know what you mean, I was reading a fantasy book recently and it involved a plot of a group of people into that kind of thing, and even though the author and the book was condemning it completely, and it wasn’t even that graphic, I just felt kind of sick reading it, knowing that some people actually like it.

  53. nayo May 4, 2008 at 5:04 AM #

    Hi, just wanted you to read my comment about your observations on pornography on the “Mmm brains” blog. I should have written it here but I got overzealous and wrote it on the spot as a reaction to her sentiments. We all need to support each other more in life, especially for such meaningful endeavors. You really inspire other people’s political passions. Thankfully you have the mental energy some of us may lack. It’s refreshing and welcomed.

  54. nayo May 4, 2008 at 5:15 AM #

    This is the first time I have read such an astute analysis on the effect of pornography on the whole of society and especially involving intimate,trusting relationships between men and women, in regards to the actual level of respect felt for women when regularly participating in the dehumanizing of them for the sake of some convenient sexual gratification. (That may be a run on sentence.) You are doing crucial, valuable work in the area of raising consciousness about the accepted marketability of women’s sexuality as a successful commodity. I thank you for writing the blog because in just one day of reading, I feel more educated, more vindicated about old arguments with an ex-lover and more excited about finding other websites that are about treating women as actual human beings who deserve respect.

  55. Grim, ungainly May 11, 2008 at 1:37 AM #

    “There don’t seem to be a huge number of men who are interested in understanding female sexuality or in relinquishing their perceived right to define what sex is and should be.”

    I think you short-suit men in this statement. from my prospective, men seem to be incredibly interested in understanding female sexuality. Clearly, this implies that there is a poor understanding of female sexuality to begin with, But I don’t think that’s a problem with porn, but instead a problem with our education system.

  56. Nine Deuce May 11, 2008 at 1:59 AM #

    You have a right to your own opinion, but I think women who sleep with men get a little more cred on this issue. I do, however, agree that our educational system is blowing it when it comes to explaining sexuality at all, but especially female sexuality.

  57. chlorophyll May 12, 2008 at 4:24 AM #

    Grim—

    I think alot of what you said can be tied to how young boys grow up watching porn now, and how they are repeatedly exposed to sex sequences whose culmination is when the man ejaculates. But even when kids aren’t exposed to porn, the boy-girl sex dynamics always seems to involve the girl wanting to please the boy in such a way that her body becomes the vehicle for this quest. I don’t know if this is the case for boys (from my perspective it doesn’t seem like it), but sometimes it ends up that both the girl and the boy expect this model of behavior to be the norm. Which is really sad.

  58. gare (required) May 12, 2008 at 2:03 PM #

    im back again, there is one thing i want to get off my chest .. i HAD to come back because this was BURNING inside and it hurt me to hear such a eloquent person utter something so alien to my sensibilities… our host… whom i had begun to call Nina, until i realized that this was a typo for Nine… and im not using caps, so ‘twisty’ would throw me off her board .. but .. how.. how could ANY free thinking woman or man

    not like lord of the rings? i’m calling gandalf!

    anyway. im a summarizer. im a mainstream punter who doesnt know much about all this, so i’ll probably get skipped over, since all these posters appear to have experience in these subjects, and indeed i remember hearing most of these arguments back in the 80s … nina .. can you summarize your position on porn? heres what i think i hear

    porn isnt illegal, and im a free speech populist
    BUT … theres always disclaimers followed by buts

    its only viewable in a scrubbed mutually supportive way – in that all participants are feeling and concerned with the others – it would be funny to have a porn scene go on and on and on with each partner going, no.. YOU first … no YOU first .. like that old gag with two oriental types bowing

    its NOT viewable if you are a relationship

    participants should somehow be scrubbed so that we know for certain they arent doing this because they need the money

    nobody buys gares! argument (garedalf) that the only answer to porn is saturation to the point easily bored kids leave it behind just like youtube, which is already bloated and stale ..

    anyway. you said (somewhere) you wanted more mainstreamers to comment. i guess i am. im a guy who is interested in everything. but i build planetariums, so all can come over to my weird website too! thanks gare

  59. Nine Deuce May 12, 2008 at 3:11 PM #

    It’s true, I hate LOTR, but as for porn, here’s my summary: I don’t want it banned, I want people to think about its effects on them and on our society and to stop using it of their own volition and for their own benefit.

  60. RebekahD May 12, 2008 at 6:31 PM #

    Nine Deuce – thank you very much for this series. I have been exploring feminism for several months, mostly because I, like SAAM, have a daughter for whom I fear – really FEAR, considering all she will be having to deal with as she grows up. 702’s M67 fragmentation grenade sounds really good.
    I have been one of those whose feminism was of the I’ll Wear Makeup When I Want To and Make Your Own Damn Sandwich variety with little introspection or underlying philosophy other than my own convenience.
    I have been one who though porn was okay, at least the plain and simple porn that I’ve seen, and that those women sure seemed to be enjoying it and said so in interviews.
    My researches have brought me to you (and Twisty and many other radical feminists) through the auspices of the Carnival of Feminists. My eyes are opening. Thank you. Great series.

  61. Nine Deuce May 12, 2008 at 6:58 PM #

    RebekahD – I have a few friends with daughters and I’d be effing terrified if I had one. It’s a good thing yours has a mom that is going to try to counteract the insane influence of our present culture for her. The more comments like yours I get, the more hopeful I feel, to be honest. Parents like you, SAAM, and 702 are the people who are going to raise kids that might grow up seeing the bullshit around them for what it is. That’s a good thing. The world just may change.

  62. Lars May 17, 2008 at 12:21 PM #

    Ah, Porn!

    I’ve always liked it, but big parts of it have always disgusted me. The problem is I’m a nice guy. I get horny when I see people having passionate, tender, loving sex. And well, you don’t see that in porn very often. You have to look real hard (but it exists, though mostly in some lesbian porn). It seems to be all about submission and domination, and using “your slut” as a pleasure slave.
    I mean, why on earth would I want to “come all over her face”? I don’t get it, all that annoying sticky stuff in her hair, why would either of us want that?

    I think the problem is with breaking the taboo. It seems that once the pron industry breaks the “showing sex” taboo, they also break all other taboos, like “disrespect” and “pure egoism”. And it’s sad really so many people deep down want that sort of thing.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents…

  63. gare May 20, 2008 at 2:51 PM #

    I don’t want it banned, I want people to think about its effects on them and on our society and to stop using it of their own volition and for their own benefit.

    I suppose we agree in a roundabout way. Not banning it is the same as making it saturated, because any gas fills all available space uniformly (gare knows science, well) Stop using it of your own volition is similar to what the kids in the high school up the road ARE DOING.. they run across it on youtube, they accidently blunder into it, but since girls and boys now in their generation from what i observe in my 17 yearolds life are totally open about all this, they have no need for it. Its not forbidden. The people worried about porn (it used to be porno .. WHERE DID THE O GO) are those from the previous generations (which conflicts with my image of you, a kid in manhattan still in college, hardly experienced in parenting or what goes on in the heartland, if im wrong im sorry, you may be from peoria and older than me (i turn 55 in july, woo hoo cheap whoppers baby!) baby by the way was not in any way.. oh never mind .. the people worried about porn are the ones who grew up when all this was forbidden. its in the garish (no relation) light of day now. nobody in the class 09 needs porn. no guy does. theyve got informed, fun, more or less equal women coming up with them. this DOESNT MEAN there arent problems of other sorts mind you!

    nigel. i mean gare

  64. M May 23, 2008 at 4:33 AM #

    This is a great article. I’d like to see a whole separate diatribe about how society’s idea of sex conforms to men’s “needs”… (When does it start? When is it considered “over”?) Even to the point where non-reproductive sex is frowned upon, despite the fact that women are not designed to orgasm that way… Anyway, I think you made some great points.

    …but I like Panic at the Disco. Aww.

    • Miranda July 27, 2009 at 9:35 AM #

      I like Panic at the Disco too. And I don’t appreciate the implication that that makes me an ignorant idiot. A band’s music not being to your taste doesn’t make it utter shit. I’ll forgive, though, because this blog is fascinating.

  65. Patricia May 23, 2008 at 5:37 AM #

    Hmmm… My 2 cents on porn…

    Someone once told me, when I said how horrified I was that my then boyfriend now fiancé has watched porn, that I should assume all men went through a porn phase. Then again, this came from the same person that “doesn’t mind” when guys like to talk dirty to her in bed.

    Eventually the things you “don’t mind” doing get more and more extreme.

    I wonder, where does the porn end? Because, you see, I also despise the image of women portrayed in magazines. They are just as hyper-sexualised and because they are available in the mainstream, surely they have more of an effect? They stare up at us from every magazine, with heavy-lidded eyes and “underboob”.

    And another thing! Why is it that we have all these degrading words for private parts? Boobs, tits, dick, prick… Even the baby words.

    If you can call an ear an ear, you can call a vagina a vagina.

  66. Nine Deuce May 23, 2008 at 10:49 PM #

    Have you seen this documentary called Hardcore? I’ve yet to see it, but it sounds like something my pro-porn readers may want to check out. I’m just saying.

  67. Nine Deuce May 23, 2008 at 10:52 PM #

    Patricia – It may be true that young dudes almost all have a porn phase, but what I’m concerned about is the adult men who seem to think they have some kind of right to continue using porn despite the fact that they know what’s ethically wrong with it and despite their partners’ feelings.

    I agree about the terminology. It’s a weird commentary on our society’s discomfort with sex as a whole that we can’t seem to find a way to refer to our own body parts that isn’t either negative or infantile. Vagina, vagina, vagina.

  68. Angry Reptile Keeper May 31, 2008 at 1:53 PM #

    What about women who get off on gay/lesbian porn? What about trannies?

    Wait, if hetero/lesbian porn is oppressing women, then isn’t gay porn oppressing men? I mean, men in gay porn are getting fucked in the ass and fellating one another and jizzing on other men’s faces. That could be considered pretty degrading, no? But I never hear anyone complain.

    I like porn. I don’t like violent or cruel porn, but I like to watch people have sex. Male or female. Or some combination. It’s hot.

    I also like to watch animals have sex.

    Is there something wrong with that, too?

    Someguy said:
    “I get annoyed by people who say “use your imagination”. You know, if there was no porn around or if it was really hard to access, using my imagination would probably be a good idea. But, it is so much better with actual images and videos. I mean, for me at least, it’s like someone telling me “don’t watch that movie, imagine it”. No, I’d much rather watch a fking movie than imagine it. Look if you have an amazingly vivid imagination, good for you. Not everybody is born with that.”

    *Applauds*

    Besides, the actors (male or female) get financially compensated. A lot of porn opponents say that women don’t get paid shit for it, but I have yet to see any of them come up with any evidence to prove it. Preferably unbiased, credible evidence, not what another porn opponent says.

  69. Angry Reptile Keeper May 31, 2008 at 1:59 PM #

    “…and despite their partners’ feelings.”

    Well, I don’t think that I have a right to impose my version of morality on my fiance, just as he doesn’t have a right to do so to me.

    I don’t order him to stop watching anal sex, and he doesn’t order me to stop looking at hentai or furry porn. Even though neither of us understands why the other likes what we do.

    All that really matters to me is that he doesn’t start acting it out with me. And he doesn’t, so there’s really no problem.

    For one of us to demand that the other stop looking at porn, or some types of it, would create resentment. It would in any relationship.

    I mean, let’s face it. Monogamy has a serious flaw, and that’s that it gets boring boffing the same person after a couple hundred times, and when you’ve tried every position. Sometimes it’s nice to look at some porn and have a visit with your hand. Keeps things a little more interesting.

  70. Nine Deuce May 31, 2008 at 5:04 PM #

    Gay porn is different. There is a much more tangible sense that women are being used and degraded in most heterosexual porn than there is that men are in gay porn. I know that female porn actors are paid to pretend to be excited by being degraded, but it is usually clear that they are faking it, and I don’t know that the same is true in gay porn. The reason a woman having her face ejaculated on is more degrading than a man having the same done to him is that we live in a misogynistic culture. There is a clear message of disrespect and domination, where in gay porn it’s more about both parties getting off. Women’s sexuality in porn is nearly invisible, but their being reduced to the status of fuck-objects is not.

    I suggest you read the rest of this series, especially the 4th installment, if you want the background to this one and my opinion on the supposed compensation women get for participating in porn. It’s a horrifically abusive industry, and it desensitizes men and women to women’s humanity. The rest of the series covers those issues.

    As for monogamy, I think we’ve been trained culturally to think that a requisite for a happy relationship is for both partners to be in some kind of hyper-sexual state all the time. It’s not realistic, nor is it probably even desirable. It’s fairly disruptive, if you think about it.

    I don’t think it’s right for one partner in a relationship to do something that hurts the other and damages their self esteem, which porn use does in many cases. If someone gets resentful that their “right” to use porn is being taken away, then I suppose that means that they care more about using porn than they do about their partner’s feelings. I’d prefer not to be with someone like that. If you don’t mind (I mean really, deep down, don’t mind), then that’s your choice, but women who do mind ought not be forced to tolerate what I take to be a form of emotional abuse.

  71. Jane May 31, 2008 at 5:29 PM #

    So, here it is again, another one defending his right to use and abuse. Who cares who these people in the videos are. I’m gonna get off!
    And, I don’t know, maybe intimacy with your partner keeps things interesting.
    Also, to reply to that guy who uses all caps, I am not some weird ugly lesbian. (Not that I think lesbians are weird, he did). I am a straight women and according to the men I walk by am pretty fucking hot. And, their right, I am. I’ve got the body type that people fuckin pay for- so- I don’t hate the sex industry because I’m jealous of it or feel that I don’t compare. I think it’s degrading plain and simple. It’s degrading to women, it’s degrading to men, and it degrades sex in general.
    Oh, and if you think that the sex industry is just a load of people getting their rocks off and getting paid for it; you obviously haven’t spent anytime in it. And if you have, my guess is you’ve got the same issues that the people working in it have. And I feel sorry for you.
    To back myself up a bit. I danced for two years. In that time I met a lot of women who were dancers, prostitutes and porn stars. The common thread is that they got their self-worth from how men reacted to them. And most of them believe that it’s perfectly normal for a woman’s body to be used for a man’s pleasure. The pleasure for her lies in her feeling that she has some power over that. So basically, she gets an ego boost from the illusion that she is sexually manipulating them. She’s not in power because she’s manipulating herself to feed his fantasy and maybe getting money in return. The money gets addictive, but you don’t feel proud of how you earned it so it gets wasted. And after you’ve made a few thousand dollars a night for a few years, it doesn’t really matter anymore. One more thing, no one was ever sober. Everyone got either high or drunk while they worked. What does that say about how healthy these people are and where their choice of this type of work is coming from?
    So, before you reply in defense of your mindless wanking. Think about what she’s saying won’t you.

  72. Jane May 31, 2008 at 5:53 PM #

    Regarding interviews, two things: first, do you really think on your porn video that they wouldn’t edit out any part where the women might say that it hurt or that she didn’t like it or had no control and wished she could stop it? Do you think she may be able to verbalize her feelings at that time? It’s not exactly a supportive environment. And, if you’ve ever listened to Howard Stern women do talk about histories of sexual abuse and their laughed at. The whole point of this post from what I gather is that women in the sex industry and in general begin to identify themselves with whose in power. It happened in the antebellum period with slavery. Those who are disempowered identify themselves with those in power because they also want to be in power. I think that’s the same thing here. Women want to believe they like it; if they don’t believe that, they admit they are powerless.

  73. isme September 20, 2008 at 3:27 AM #

    “The reason a woman having her face ejaculated on is more degrading than a man having the same done to him is that we live in a misogynistic culture. ”

    I’m not sure what you mean. If a man can be ejaculated without it being degrading, surely a woman can be as well? Or do you mean that in mainstream porn, the intent is to degrade, which it isn’t in gay porn, and that it wouldn’t be a problem if it was done…what’s the word…”respectfully”?

    Or is it just because the woman is unable to “respond in kind”?

  74. kristina January 22, 2010 at 9:24 PM #

    I would have to offer my self as a prime example of what porn does to women. I obsess about my weight, how to get my post pregnancy body back in shape, never being happy no matter how skinny I may get, and sadly a secret hatred of men in which I get bashed for expressing because of the monster that they themselves have created… which just angers me more. I have helped some men in the past see or at least consider what porn does to women, perhaps through sharing my thought process in a step by step fashion in a given scenario of experience. I’m married to a former porn-addict whom has had his stumbles, and me mine on what men consider to be worse than viewing pornography (I have cheated…but not for physical reasons, for emotional) my husband and I are working things out, but always in the back of my mind I am highly suspicious that he is lying, doesn’t find me attractive, or finds other women MORE attractive and is lying to me about not finding other women more attractive. It’s a constant battle to just stay sane. I have been diagnosed with depression, social anxiety disorder (much of which stems from highschool, and my attitude I took in highschool in order to be sure I wasn’t viewed as an object for sexual gratification or catering to the male ego by acting like a damsel in distress), and bipolar disorder. My main triggers in all these things stem from how I’m perceived in levels of attractiveness. My relationships with men in general suffer as I do not trust MOST men, and those that I have, have let me down GREATLY. I try not to carry these feelings into every relationship, but when I’m constantly being reminded that I’m not perceived as beautiful because I don’t match a certain criteria of beauty that Hollywood sets in place it just sets off my triggers all over again. I don’t like not trusting men, I don’t like hating most girls because of their shallow view on life and themselves that they have been conditioned to accept, and I hate trying to pretend that my brain doesn’t question the things it does (such as is it really worth it to doll yourself up for a man whom probably just views you as a glory hole?)…I hate my perception, and the pain that comes with viewing the world as I see it..It would be much easier if I could focus on nothing but selfish desires and thus becoming the positive female that men so enjoy…Which brings me to the question why do men like positive women…probably because it mirrors the way porn makes them feel…No drama, no worries, it’s all smooth sailing and pleasure…WAKE UP!!!! I absolutely LOVE this blog, one in which my husband and his friends would call male-bashing.. Again brings me to another point… Men who can realize that some men are jerks and aren’t guilty of misogynist behaviors are more likely to accept so called male-bashing and accept it for what it is…some guys are jerks… However, ones that take offense… just makes me think that they’ve been guilty of such behavior in their lives…I mean why get mad about something that you don’t do or can’t be categorized doing. That would be like me getting mad at men who make jokes about women who are high maintenance and shop too much…(I choose to stay away from sexual topics on that point because its so muddled with the way our culture is today)

  75. kristina January 22, 2010 at 9:26 PM #

    EXACTLY JANE!!!! Well said!

  76. Grafton January 23, 2010 at 9:23 AM #

    Men who can realize that some men are jerks and aren’t guilty of misogynist behaviors are more likely to accept so called male-bashing and accept it for what it is…

    What is it?

    (Please, take question as simple and literal. I accept the male-bashing in the sense that I figure it’s what people here want to do and they’ve got their reasons for it, but I’m not sure what its meaning is beyond anger.)

  77. Immir March 3, 2010 at 6:33 AM #

    I’ve been saying for ages that porn hurts women. We’re sexual creatures, too, so after a life time of exposure to our cultures version of sex, it’s no wonder women end up being ‘exhibitionists’ or want to be viewed a sex object… they’re just trying to express their sexuality in the ways they have been taught in our society.

    But, really, if nobody sees that as wrong, then you are ignoring obvious flaws with in favour of your own gratification. And using lame arguments to support your position. Why can’t some people just cut to the chase & say- “I like it, so I don’t care about what harm it causes” instead of going off on a long-winded diatribe riddled with gramatical errors and flawed observation?

    Can a woman climax from being looked at or desired? Her sexuality is limited if that is what it is based on and beyond it she is lost, confused & sexually frustrated. She can find it difficult to even feel sexual if she feels undesirable, leading to sexual dysfunction & inability to climax. I don’t think alot of guys care about this- I think that is actually what they WANT.

    Heaps of men claim to be soooo ‘into sex’, but they aren’t, really. They don’t know shit about it. They get all squemish & wierded out by reality. What’s the point of being into porn if you’re not into actual sex? DUH

  78. Rian March 4, 2010 at 1:36 AM #

    What’s the point of being into porn if you’re not into actual sex?

    The same point as watching cop shows if you’re not into getting shot at. Media is a social surrogate. We derive a sense of power and alleviate our social insecurity by identifying with people and situations in television, movies, etc.. Rob Horning wrote a great article on how pornography fits into our commodity-mediated existence (TRIGGER WARNING: Survivors of sexual violence may wish to skip the first paragraph).

  79. Immir April 10, 2010 at 4:39 AM #

    The difference is that people don’t get shot everyday.

  80. Sorvahr July 1, 2010 at 1:42 PM #

    I was wondering, due to how easy it is for people to inadvertently end up talking at cross purposes due to a misunderstanding, what exactly you define pornography as.

    I always understood pornography as being any piece of media, visual or otherwise, that frankly depicts nudity or sex acts and whose primary purpose is the sexual gratification of the audience. A romance novel with lots of steamy sex scenes is pornography. A yaoi manga (Japanese comics depicting idealized male homosexual relationships produced for a heterosexual female audience–Japanese media are largely classified by target demographic) with graphic images is pornography. An amateur’s modification to a Sims game that adds penises to the male Sims is pornography. Pornography need not necessarily come from a dedicated “sex industry”, it need not necessarily involve a business, it need not necessarily be sold for a profit, and it need not necessarily even involve actual people having actual sex or even getting naked–pornography can be produced with nothing more than a keyboard and an imagination.

    I agree that the sex industry, as it exists now, with its role in our patriarchal consumerist society, is misogynistic and destructive. I disagree that all pornography, regardless of its content, audience, or cultural context, is inherently misogynistic and destructive. One of the big problems here is that the vast majority of pornography that exists has originated in only one society, and that society is dominated by patriarchal power structures and a sexist media, making it difficult to analyze pornography outside of the context of the entertainment media machine (perhaps the single most misogynistic component of Western civilization) and its seamy, perverse underground subsidiary the sex industry.

    Furthermore, while you addressed lesbian porn, I did not ever see you address gay male porn (as opposed to the aforementioned yaoi, which fetishizes male homosexuality for a heterosexual audience in a sort of flip side of “lesbo” [the fetishistic male fantasy archetype, as distinct from real lesbians] porn), where the producers, actors, and consumers are effectively the same demographic. This is of particular interest to me as I do not consume straight porn, because I am not straight. I would like to hear your perspective on gay porn with male actors produced for a male audience.

    And lastly, the idea that porn must always be degrading to women regardless of all variables strikes me as both heteronormative (the sexuality and concerns of homosexuals of either sex are not considered, only sexual relations between men and women are important) and gender essentialist (this is how porn must always be, and not a reflection of male entertainment industry power structures and toxic gender archetypes).

    I see the primary problem with pornography as the disgusting sexist power structure it is produced under and the cultural context it operates in. I think that with the removal of patriarchal power structures pornography can ultimately be cleansed of misogynistic abuse, “barely legal sluts”, and bleached bungholes. I think you are not considering the totality of the idea of sexuality-as-entertainment and everything that can exist under that umbrella.

    The current products of the sex industry that feature female actors are abominations that degrade the human spirit, but I think that the idea of pornography is a lot broader than the Western sex industry and visual media produced by it. Unfortunately it will take a great deal of time and effort to exterminate the Max Hardcores (trigger warning for readers: don’t look up “Max Hardcore” if you are easily affected by abuse of women. He is really, really, really vile) of the world, including a long-overdue reckoning between Western governments and sex, a subject our leaders seem unwilling to understand or even acknowledge.

  81. ocean August 30, 2010 at 7:37 PM #

    This is an old thread, but whatever. I have something to say. I’ve decided, because of your posts about porn (I’ve read parts 1-6 so far and will read the rest too), that I’ll no longer be dating men who use porn AT ALL. Or at least, that’s what I will tell my dates. I can only hope that they’ll be honest about their porn use (I realize this is unlikely, but what can I do?). I simply reject it from my life and don’t give a shit what anyone thinks. Zero tolerance.

    I posted one of your porn posts on my Facebook and have gotten not one single “like” or comment, which almost never happens. Weird, are all of my 275 friends pro-porn/anti-woman? I don’t know. But evidently none of them are interested in dialoging about it.

    Anyway, I’m done with porn users, and if that means I’m never to have a relationship with a man, so be it. So I won’t have sex with men any more, big deal. I’m tired of their selfish crap and their “the world revolves around my orgasm” mentalities. Men suck. So what would I be missing out on? A bunch of future assholes using me for their masturbation? Oh no!

    Just thought I’d let you know, 9-2, that you’ve made a difference in my life and I’m glad of it.

    • Nine Deuce August 30, 2010 at 9:11 PM #

      That makes me very happy to hear. The more of us there are, the more men are gonna have to get with the program.

  82. Hecate August 30, 2010 at 9:53 PM #

    “Remember, everyone used to think slavery was OK, that women shouldn’t get to vote, that cocaine was a good beverage additive, that menthol cigarettes cured colds, and so on.”

    This is an excellent point! And it’s bound to be one that will infuriate men who feel ‘entitled’ to women’s bodies. I sense that it’s not so much the sexual content of porn that excites men, but the idea inherent in porn that the whole point is to make sure the woman is hurt in some way. They ‘get off’ on something that is nothing but sadistic. So to me what’s happening is similar to what Andrea Dworkin thought – that men who use porn absolutely hate women and use it to bond with each other. It’s the ultimate male bonding session, no doubt about it. They feel a sense of power when they see women abused and humiliated in porn, and that sense of power is amplified because they know their buddies feel the same thing when viewing it. It’s pretty sick, but that’s the male race for you…

  83. joy August 30, 2010 at 10:16 PM #

    Good choice, ocean. Although everyone’s different, I must say — I made a similar one about six months ago and haven’t regretted it.

    It’s true, being publicly known to not have sex with pornhounds (and, in my case, openly refusing to have penis-in-vagina or -anus intercourse with -anybody-) will probably do a number on your social life. But believe me, it will be for the better.

    You will no longer feel like you’ve inhaled a ton of toxic shit every time you’re around your ‘friends.’ Even if you end up alone in your own apartment (like I have, although mostly by my own choosing), at least you won’t feel poisoned and degraded by other human beings.

    Watch out for other women, too. That’s what has hurt me the most. Men, I take for granted are not going to get it. Whenever a woman doesn’t get it, I feel like it’s a stab in my back.
    I’m working on it.

  84. Linda August 31, 2010 at 8:52 AM #

    Nine Deuce,

    Thank you for this post. I have never met another woman who has articulated so well the truth about women’s objectification in porn and its links to social oppression of not only women’s sexuality but how a woman defines herself as a human being. I am happy to have joined the ranks of the shunned and ignored that you speak of because I am now thinking about myself in all aspects of my life. And like you said, it is truly the most rewarding path.

  85. lizor August 31, 2010 at 10:36 AM #

    Cheers Ocean!! Right on! I made that choice a long time ago – it wan’t really a choice, but a necessity. I’ve encountered endless kicks and slaps, insults and attempts at crushing my resolve for it, but it is SO worth it.

    And Joy, I really hear you on how devastating it is when women actively prop up and/or promote the normalizing of porn use.

    Hecate, you said “I sense that it’s not so much the sexual content of porn that excites men, but the idea inherent in porn that the whole point is to make sure the woman is hurt in some way.” I have been thinking the same thing recently.

    I remember when I was a small kid, the boys on our street would catch frogs from a river near by and they would devise all sorts of new and perverse tortures and slow deaths for the frogs, a lot of which involved inserting things into the mouths and anuses of the frogs. There was an element of that cold, detached Nazi medical experiment about it and when they would boast about it after the fact to one another (with us girls looking on, as was the dynamic), I would think that they deserved to die. I wanted to kill them with my bare hands.

    Now when I think of men making porn and sharing porn and watching porn (live or video) in groups, like at a stag, I just see those sadistic, entitled, evil little boys playing their sick torture games.

    It speaks volumes about the deepening darkness of our culture that so few people can see this for what it truly is.

  86. kristina August 31, 2010 at 10:55 AM #

    Joy, just so you know… I get why you don’t want it, and I feel like you are completely justified in your life experience…I am not at all saying what is right for me is right for you…so please don’t take my views as a stab on yours…nobody can tell you what is or isn’t right… that is strictly up to you. My views when it comes to men though are different…you see the reason behind that is most men lack empathy, whereas women are forced to live in empathy…I view empathy as a good trait, but only when it forces people together and not apart. Men can feign empathy, but some lack the ability to internalize it by only seeing their views…when a man lacks critical analysis of what he may be doing may be causing harm to others, like in the case of porn…it’s obvious he hasn’t internalized empathy..however to me, if I react in a way that discounts his shame in his use of pornography a shame that even he can’t see…I’m lacking empathy. I absolutely don’t agree with porn use, and have a strong sense that the hidden shame men posses in using pornography is in part due to my discounting his humanity…in essence I will say to a man how his porn use affects me, here he has the choice to open up and let me know how he feels about my feelings..if his feelings discount mine, it is not empathy…if he owns his shame and opens up about how my feelings make him feel sad, it is obvious he has owned his shame… some might perceive it as manipulative..but it’s a knee jerk reaction to uncomfortable feelings.

  87. ocean August 31, 2010 at 5:02 PM #

    Kristina, I agree with you about empathy. It’s been a huge issue in my dating life. as the men I’ve gotten involved with lately seem completely unwilling to exercise any (at least AFTER they sleep with me). I know they are human beings and are capable of it, but it’s been rinsed out of them by this sense of entitlement – which does not include taking into account other peoples feelings or realities. I think most men (maybe most women too?) see it as a direct threat to their sense of the world revolving around them. I also believe we are all equally capable of it, but some choose not to embrace it (because it’s not seen as a “masculine” trait?).

    So when, say, a man I’m dating says he “loves” me and wants a relationship, typically I find out a few months down the road that it had nothing to do with love, but was just a strategy he used to “get” me (into his bed), which is why there’s nothing odd to them about fading away emotionally and regressing the “relationship” to a purely sexual one, and refusing to be accountable for the things they communicated (and subcommunicated) initially. At this point they become obtuse, and completely resistant to reasonable conversations about it. And I’m like, wow, excuuuse me for believing you. I now realize I wasn’t supposed to, that it was all a game.

    I think this recklessness and straight-up lying is influenced by their rejection of empathy for the person they’ve become sexually involved with. Empathy then, becomes unnecessary, and/or at cross-purposes to their needs. After they get what they want (which turns out to be nothing but a sexual conquest) they *suddenly* lose their former connection to my emotional realities. So it becomes an effective tool for them that comes in handy in the initial stages of “getting” me, but then disappears in the aftermath. It seems that these men aren’t able to have empathy for the women they sleep with, but plenty for those they WANT to sleep with. And there’s no awareness on their parts of the discrepancies here, as if it’s the most natural thing to them to use empathy for purely selfish reasons, which makes it fake empathy I guess – an acting job.

    This makes me think of the Madonna/whore complex, because the distinction is so clearly drawn between women they’ve had sex with and women they haven’t (yet). Those they haven’t slept with are seen as human beings; those they’ve slept with have crossed into the zone of dehumanized playthings. They are unable to note that it’s been the same woman all along, and that they (the men) have categorically placed me on their shit pile, simply because they’ve put their penises into me. Sick. I can’t feel anything but disgust and disappointment at this point. I try to understand the underlying reasons for this, but now *I’m* the one without empathy, because the unjustness of their treatment repels me and makes me see *them* as less-than-human sexheads. So now they’ve not only dehumanized me, I’ve dehumanized them, and it’s only with a lot of distance that I’m able to see their humanity again, if ever.

    Everyone loses in this scenario. And for this reason I’ve made a decision to date chastely (until marriage probably), because I won’t have my higher self compromised by this kind of thing. I will not let men of low character make me a lesser person. And sex seems to be the only deciding factor for them. It’s just not worth it to me.

    Anyway, I don’t know how all this ties into porn, sorry if I got too far off-track. Just felt like saying that.

  88. ocean August 31, 2010 at 5:36 PM #

    Joy and Lizor, thank you! I’m Ok with changes to my social life. What concerns me is that I don’t feel confident about my abilities to lay it all out in clear arguments for people who take an opposing (status quo) stance. Probably what I’ll do is direct them here. Really though, anyone with a brain and the ability to reason can see the truth about porn. It’s the willingness that’s the problem. I think men for the most part can see this side of it, but their attachment to porn and their habitual status-quo (i.e. ignorant) thinking overrides their higher intelligence. I think deep down they feel the same aversion to it that we do, but it’s overwritten by hormonal reactions. Nothing I can do about that. I get a lot of flack and a lot of resistance (including flat out silence) to many ideas I present to friends, so that’s nothing new. But I’m not going to make myself unhappy just because of their limitations. People just aren’t all that smart on the whole, which is a big part of why there’s so much resistance to COMPLETELY RATIONAL arguments.

    I know that women are complicit, partly because they often buy into the idea that if you’re not in agreement with the majority of men, you’re going to be alone (if you’re heterosexual). This feels threatening to their own happiness. But they may also realize that chances are, they will end up with a porn-user in their own home / intimate relationship, at which point they’ll be forced to deal with the negative impact it has on them personally. I’m dedicated to avoiding this, myself.

  89. Hecate August 31, 2010 at 10:34 PM #

    Thanks lizor,

    Unfortunately I’m inclined to think most men are sadistic Nazis. And I didn’t just pull that out of my a$$. It’s the conclusion I’ve come to after a lifetime of abuse from men and reading the experiences of other women like you.

    I hope the universe is preparing the darkest karma imaginable for men. They deserve no less!

  90. Hecate August 31, 2010 at 10:42 PM #

    HAHAHA! YEEEESSS!

    This is wonderful! Let’s hope it’s true girls!

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4225769

  91. Valerie M September 1, 2010 at 12:21 PM #

    @ Hecate

    Good riddance, I say! Seriously, the sooner the better.

  92. kristina September 1, 2010 at 4:13 PM #

    I can agree with that link you posted here Hecate…but I sincerely hope somehow the chromosome morphs men into blubbering balls of mass…that would be some good karma right there…not to die, but to live as women live everyday…

  93. kristina September 1, 2010 at 4:23 PM #

    Ocean… yes they absolutely are clueless…I hope you don’t think that changes with marriage..if anything it makes you more a piece of property than anything..at least in my experience. I love my husband but he can’t grasp for the life of him why I think he has more of empathy for a dudebro, than his own wife. He’ll say this guy is the man..the same man who made my husband stumble in averting his eyes or thoughts, which in turn dehumanized me, just because this doodbro of his shared a common interest of his (star wars)…so this guy is the man because he shares a like of star wars and I whom share the same interest, am something to be dehumanized…no matter how hard I try to point this out it just leads to empty promises, or empty sorries…he has no clue. I’m really on the fence of where I belong… the porn comment was just to make an easy scenario, it’s one I know all too well. You know, they say when men view scantily clad women the tool section of their brains light up..meaning they think of women as use as opposed to interact…I swear…fucking hopeless

  94. ocean September 1, 2010 at 9:49 PM #

    Kristina, yeah, that sucks. I feel like guys are more concerned with what other guys think of them than what their own wives and girlfriends think. Or even what they themselves really think on deeper levels. It’s all about ego. Somehow their “manhood” is called into question by them respecting their woman. Sick. I see it very differently from the whole ‘boys will be boys’ crap (which is just stupid ultimately, as if men aren’t capable of self-development). I see male-to-male woman-hating and/or the whole “sure honey *wink wink bro*” thing as a character defect. And it turns me off. If a guy can’t think for himself without feeling like his masculinity is being threatened if he veers from the “dudebro” code, he shrinks down to a pathetic smallness in my eyes. I can’t help it. It’s just unattractive, and ugly, and alienating. Rampant as it is, I still hold a bit of hope that change is possible.

    Has your guy read any of the porn posts here? Or Robert Jensen? Maybe that would help him see why it’s harmful, or at least get him to shift his views a tiny bit. That said, I don’t believe in changing men or even expecting them to change. But I don’t think it’s hopeless if the guy has some willingness to look at things honestly. If he has any intelligence, the truth is there for him to know. If he’s too blind or too invested in misogyny, that’s just sad for him. I seem to notice that men aren’t concerned with doing the right thing anymore, but only with “how much can I get away with?” That’s a sign of a shabby character, and in a way, women are left to bring their lazy self-absorbed asses up if they want decent men in their lives. It doesn’t seem like too many people are willing to raise their sons with any sense of right and wrong anymore. Feels like the end of the world as we know it.

    Anyway.. I hope you can get through to your husband one of these days. If not, he’ll miss out on an opportunity to grow into a better man. I don’t mean any of this judgmentally really, it’s just what I’m noticing these days in general. Self-indulgence thrives while relationships suffer. Women put their best foot forward while men stand firm in their ignorance and self-obsessed behaviors and tell us this is the best that men have to offer so we might as well lower our standards. As if!

  95. kristina September 2, 2010 at 3:32 PM #

    I know ocean, you’re being very supportive! I keep working on him, it seems I am able to find balances to keep in which I can suggest things by opening up..I’m not exactly an open person either when it comes to people close to me. I do see him as a powerful ally in the future, and it’s not a fruitless labor..I have changed his views in many ways, and it was mostly because of my caring nature..instead of intellectually bashing him over the head, he is miles away from the butt head he used to be…LOL..and that was just when we were dating that these changes took place… I am considering having him read robert jensen..he’s really into being a good parent for our boys so they don’t suffer the faults he suffered as a boy..any parenting books that anyone knows about that might open eyes to the possibility of finding acceptance of feminism?

  96. Hecate September 3, 2010 at 1:02 AM #

    Lol Valerie and Kristina :D

    Yeah, Kristina may have something there. Death is too easy a fate, and real karma is about going back and correcting the pain one has inflicted. And it should quite rightly be an intensely painful process.

  97. Hecate September 3, 2010 at 12:56 PM #

    Just wanted to thank ND real quick for recommending the works of Robert Jensen. I’ve been listening to some of his interviews on Youtube and really enjoying them :)

  98. joy September 4, 2010 at 6:31 PM #

    kristina, do you actually advocate fucking men who watch porn? Because that’s what my comment upthread was about: not talking to or having sex with people who watch porn.
    It had nothing to do with (as it’s happened) my own complete separatism.

    The reason I tell people about separatism (from pornhounds or from all men, either or both), and how well it’s working out for me, is because I think a lot of women have NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED IT, or have considered it but assumed it would never work out (for whatever reason).

    The truth is, it can, and it does.

    I know you go over to FCM’s and don’t understand why she doesn’t like men/advocates against PIV, but seriously. Just think about it. Think about how free women would be if men weren’t sticking their dicks in us (and lying about it, and being sociopathic about it, as ocean has pointed out).

    Free from worries of pregnancy, disease, etc. Free of having to take care of adult-sized children who actually hate us and just want to make whores out of us.

    Wouldn’t everyone want to be free of that? After looking at their experiences as everyone here has, wouldn’t they want to get rid of the thing that makes them feel terrible?

    Everyone has to make their own choice, yes. But separatism can and does make sense.

  99. Hecate September 5, 2010 at 2:47 PM #

    I am with Joy on this. Women must learn to love themselves first, and all else will follow. The idea of separatism is not at all extreme. In fact, if men suddenly came upon a bunch of women with standards (for a change) they might just change their rotten behavior. Smiling sweetly is not self defense. Having boundaries, like a real adult on the other hand, is.

    It’s hard to say just how important it is to have a partner. But what I know for sure is that it has absolutely no relevance or importance in a society in which women are not equals. The proof of this to me is backwards cultures like India and China, both of which practice female infanticide on a regular basis and even seem proud of it! The prevalence of marriage is a sure indicator as to whether a country is developed or not. Only underdeveloped countries are stupid enough to insist on it. Make of that statement what you will. But it makes a lot of sense to me, given the current state of the world and the almost nonexistent protections where women’s rights are concerned.

    A woman needs a man like a fish needs industrial waste…

  100. kristina September 6, 2010 at 7:16 PM #

    “kristina, do you actually advocate fucking men who watch porn?”

    Hell no… never have, and have openly broken up with guys over porn. I have had to deal with it at some point since I was married, and really had no fucking choice in leaving…I was LIVID, to find out that I was worth nothing, the more angry I got, the more he withdrew…I just found empathy as a better way for ME to reach out to my husband.

  101. Hecate September 10, 2010 at 10:37 PM #

    It would be great if we could all add some comments to this article:

    http://www.alternet.org/sex/148124/how_to_respect_sex_workers/comments/

    The comments are getting more asinine by the minute…

  102. sneeky bunny September 11, 2010 at 5:04 PM #

    @ Hecate:
    I followed your link, read the article and the 26 comments. With the exception of the 2nd and 3rd poster, the conversation seemed to focus mostly on the evils of capitalism, with a few personal stories from former sex workers thrown in. It did get a bit pear shaped when the topic of rape came up, but I think hekate_darkness handled that promptly and quite well. Hey wait a minute! That wasn’t you was it? If so, then may I add that I too like the avatar, as well as the argument.

  103. kristina September 11, 2010 at 11:10 PM #

    Hecate, I absolutely believe in loving yourself first, and maybe it was just my situation, but it came rather easily when I was able to accept blame (not that anyone here hasn’t..I’m mainly musing on my transformation) on my part for things that went wrong with my marriage..I found love for myself by being all that I can be… I agree that we can’t just smile through all the b.s. , but I can still smile and set boundaries..boundaries that for me, aren’t breached by my husband because he knows I’m giving it my all, and expect him to do the same.

  104. Hecate September 12, 2010 at 5:19 PM #

    Oh thanks sneeky bunny :) Yes, that was me alright! I threw in a critique of capitalism mainly because this is a ‘bleeding heart liberal’ site, and they will shut you out if you appear to just be bashing males. Of course, I do think the patriarchy does have a lot to do with how unequal things have been in society, especially now. I consider myself liberal and progressive as well, but will never be the type to just lie down and say ‘Sure, screw me over as much as you like!’ Lol.

    And Kristina, I am happy you’re in a healthy marriage. For women who really find that kind of happiness, good on them. But I do feel marriage is still a kind of weapon in the wrong (mostly male) hands. I’m personally glad I never married any of my exes, as they’re all troglodytes and would have undoubtedly belittled me had I married them. Now I see they are with dull-witted women who suit them perfectly and it is a blessed revenge indeed.

  105. Muhammad November 26, 2010 at 2:19 AM #

    Interesting…I was talking to some girls the other day who are about the same age as me. I was telling them why I object to porn, why I think it’s immoral, why I think it’s dehumanizing and I was stunned by how defensive they were of porn. These girls were like 18 and 19 and they couldn’t wrap their head around the idea that porn is not all fun and games. It was kinda frustrating because they were trying to brush me off as some kinda conservative nut-job instead of taking my arguments into consideration.

    They gave me the same prattle you always hear from pro-porners.

  106. Muhammad November 26, 2010 at 4:03 AM #

    “The way adolescent kids treat each other can have such lasting effects, and girls get it so much worse than boys.”

    Hmmm…I dunno if I agree with that Deuce. Sure, when it comes to having your appearance nit-picked by other kids, girls have it worse. But in the school I went to (and I’m sure loads of other schools in big cities are like this) boys were violent with each other…and I’m not talking about stuff like “gimme your lunch money” and punching people in the arm and all that shtick, I mean stabbings and stuff…whilst I was at that school, about 3 different guys got stabbed outside the school gates (faggot-ass gang culture). There were plaques up in the school for the dead students.

    But I don’t know who has it worse overall, I suppose it depends on your class, the area you live in, ethnicity, all that bizniss.

  107. Muhammad November 26, 2010 at 9:18 AM #

    “I sense that it’s not so much the sexual content of porn that excites men, but the idea inherent in porn that the whole point is to make sure the woman is hurt in some way. They ‘get off’ on something that is nothing but sadistic. So to me what’s happening is similar to what Andrea Dworkin thought – that men who use porn absolutely hate women and use it to bond with each other. It’s the ultimate male bonding session, no doubt about it. They feel a sense of power when they see women abused and humiliated in porn, and that sense of power is amplified because they know their buddies feel the same thing when viewing it. It’s pretty sick, but that’s the male race for you…”

    Hecate, I’m ain’t a porn user myself but I’ve got friends that sometimes use porn. I don’t know a single guy who likes that sadistic shit. I’ve never known any of them to use porn to “bond”, that would be super weird and I’m pretty sure no one I know does anything like that…so I think you’re wrong about porn being “the ultimate male bonding session”…lol, I’ve never heard it described like that before. I don’t even know any guys that are that into it, I think the guy I know who likes porn the most only watches it a few times a month, at most. It doesn’t seem to be that popular among my peers…dunno. I have spoken to a couple of them why they should stop and they’ve taken my words into consideration.

    “It’s pretty sick, but that’s the male race for you…”
    That’s not fair, is it? Being “sick” isn’t a male attribute. Some guys are sick but some of us are trying our best.

  108. Fede November 26, 2010 at 4:05 PM #

    Dear Muhammad,

    MenA very large percentage of men use the degradation of women (such as in porn and in strip clubs) to prove to each other how manly they are. Are you sure you want to argue that there is no peer pressure among men to objectify, harass, and use women? Because if you are really denying that, then you have lived a very sheltered existence, Muhammad – and you know, good for you, but that doesn’t do much for the rest of us.

  109. Muhammad November 26, 2010 at 7:48 PM #

    Fede, I know that there is peer pressure among certain males to act like douches…I’v tried to discourage that shit among my peers. I know a guy who cat-calls at women and I’ve told him off for his moronic behaviour several times. He’s not allowed to cat-call at women no more (at least when he’s with me). I spoke to one of my buddies and he now realises why porn is garbage (not that he cared for it much to begin with). One of my buddies is just as anti-porn as I am but he doesn’t vocalize it much, unfortunately…but I have to be careful about not wagging my finger and preaching up on my soap box like I’m some kind of authority figure because that’s a sure way to alienate myself.

    “Because if you are really denying that, then you have lived a very sheltered existence, Muhammad”
    I have been sheltered in some ways, when it comes to porn and stuff, yeah, I didn’t have access to internet until recently and I didn’t know that so many people use porn, lol I thought porn was only used by shifty men in beige trench-coats up until recently. I went to an Islamic school in an urban area and most of the guys I usually associated with happened to be strict Muslim boys who went to pray in the school masjid every day and they didn’t know anything about sex or porn so those topics never came up with us. But I did see porn once when some guy showed me a clip on his phone when I was like 15 and it was fucking abominable. It’s not right.

    I’m not denying that this ridiculous “masculine” gender role pressures men to adopt questionable behaviour, I was just saying that the male “race” is not “sick”, a lot of males reject the role they were assigned at birth by society.

  110. Fede November 29, 2010 at 9:47 AM #

    “I thought porn was only used by shifty men in beige trench-coats up until recently.”
    LOL, that is a wonderful and so quotable sentence!
    Unfortunately, as you have also since discovered, porn is a much more epidemic phenomenon than that. I see it as an addictive drug that causes a sickness primarily in the way men relate to women.

    Insofar as there is no such thing as a ‘male race’, I agree that males cannot in actuality be viewed as a sick race. The ‘sickness’ that is hatred of women is NOT in the male sex per se, but – and this is an extremely important point that keeps getting looked over – looking down on women and treating women as less than human is an integral part of the masculine gender role that males are taught in our society.

    It is this fact that sometimes leads feminists to state that the ‘male race’ is sick. This should not be taken quite literally. We do know that maleness is not a race and that the sickness of woman-hating is not inborn! It’s a figure of speech, and perhaps one that offends you, but I want to make it clear that if you are one of the men who don’t hate on women, then we consider you an individual and not part of the ‘sick male race’. The reason we use such strong language is that the portion of males who DO hate on women is so staggering to us and we absolutely must express that.

    You say a lot of males reject their gender role; I hope you are right. You obviously come from a different cultural background than mine, so I will take your word for it that porn is not as widespread in your circles as it is in mine.

    I fully agree that porn is abominable. I’d like to add that it is abominable not because nudity is naughty or sex is filthy, but because porn is filled with aggression and scorn against women.

    In my own personal experience, there are a few males who reject woman-hating masculinity, but of all the men I have met in my 35-year-old life, I can count those good men on two hands, and those are really, really bad odds. I blame that on the patriarchy.

    So we need to change the way society teaches men to hate women, so that we can have new generations of men and women who are decent human beings amd all enjoy full human status in every respect. That is the ultimate goal of feminism.

    Before that can happen, though, we all have to start realising just how harmful patriarchy is and has been, and just how much fundamental disdain men are intricately taught to have for women, and do. We have to realise this in order to have a chance to change it.

  111. Hecate November 30, 2010 at 12:25 PM #

    Thank you for those clarifications, Fede. There is no such thing as a paradigm shift coming about with a shrug of the shoulders. To men who feel ‘victimized’ by the statements of feminists, I would recommend this book (penned by a man!) http://www.alphabetvsgoddess.com. It does not attack men, but gives an intelligent insight as to the framework society has chosen to work within for far too long.

    If an individual man feels ‘singled out’ by feminist critique, he’s really not getting it, and I hope he never intends to study sociology or anthropology.

  112. lizor December 2, 2010 at 5:31 AM #

    Here’s another place where the victimized guys get confused: they figure that because they put a small number of women on a pedestal, say Mom plus some fantasy girlfriend they have never managed to meet, or because they see females as the supposed holders of some loftier morals, then they can’t possibly be haters. This is called Benevolent Sexism and is as destructive if not more so that outright hostility.

    Check this article:

    http://www32.homepage.villanova.edu/robert.w.caverly/00000487-200102000-00001.pdf

  113. Hecate December 2, 2010 at 2:28 PM #

    Thanks for that lizor – it will give me something to chew on this rainy San Francisco night :)

    Here is something unspeakable that happened locally today. It’s appalling beyond words:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/12/02/BAAR1GL0VH.DTL&tsp=1

  114. isme December 2, 2010 at 8:18 PM #

    “Here’s another place where the victimized guys get confused: they figure that because they put a small number of women on a pedestal, say Mom plus some fantasy girlfriend they have never managed to meet, or because they see females as the supposed holders of some loftier morals, then they can’t possibly be haters. This is called Benevolent Sexism and is as destructive if not more so that outright hostility.”

    Argh, yes. “I’m a NICE GUY. I worship women, or at least hypothetical women as opposed to the dirty whores and cockteases I happen to meet, due to their ability to make babies. Therefore, the universe owes me hot playthings.”

  115. Fede December 3, 2010 at 3:40 AM #

    lizor: Spot on. That sums up very nearly every male in my family.

    isme: Spot on. That sums up very nearly every guy in my age group I ever met.

  116. Muhammad December 3, 2010 at 9:16 AM #

    I hope you weren’t alluding to me when you mentioned ‘confused victimized guys’, lizor.

  117. Miss Andrist December 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM #

    @Lizor, @Fede, @Hecate, @9/2, et al.

    Omigosh!! Don’t tell Muhammed I said this, but I suggest we call this shit “dick on a birthday cake.” ‘Cos nothing stands out more than a dick on a birthday cake, amirite? There’s no way anybody’s still thinking about birthday cake. There’s a dick on it. This is a game-changer. Now what??

    /snerk

    -Miss Andrist
    Lover of Men

    @Muhammed:

    When we refer to any specific individuals here, we call them by name. Our time is too valuable, and our thoughts moreso, to waste engaging in passive aggression.

    Furthermore, Muhammed, our thoughts, experiences, and truth are valuable and deserve respect.

    We do not disrespect our truth by diluting its expression with tepid concessions to the sensibilities of people whose behavior demonstrates reflexive devaluation of our thoughts, dismissal our experiences, and distortion our truth – especially to avoid acknowledging an uncomfortable and unflattering reality.

    In short (and I mean this in the nicest possible way) we do not give a flying fuck about your fee-fees. It is safe to presume that we say exactly what we mean and we mean what we say.

    Instead of responding to what lizor actually said (which would require actually considering it and we can’t have that, now can we) you massage lizor’s remarks to contrive artificial, personal insult.

    Please try again.

    I’m curious: did you intentionally punctuate your attempt to bait her with a thinly veiled threat, or was that an unintended consequence of having lived all your life with the expectation that your environment will adapt to your presence rather than vice versa?

    Did you really think we snapped to attention and started whispering behind our hands just because YOU’RE here?

    Alternatively, you could contemplate what they took time to say, mull the idea that maybe she’s saying that YOU ALL do that (collective that happens to include you) and follow the link she supplied. Acid test: are you the d00d whose participation has a place in this conversation, or one of the nine hundred ninety-nine who don’t?

    Just curious.

    -Miss Andrist
    Lover of Men

  118. isme December 3, 2010 at 11:00 PM #

    “I hope you weren’t alluding to me when you mentioned ‘confused victimized guys’, lizor.”

    Which would seem to be imply that you think it likely that you might fall under that category.

  119. lizor December 4, 2010 at 10:15 AM #

    OFFS! Of course I was talking about you Muhammed! Because you’re the only guy I ever ever think about and in fact this entire blog is about you! Thank God you’re finally here!!

    Hecate, that is truly horrific but I am SURE this guy’s vile actions have no relation to media or porn use…

    OK, now for the non-sarcastic comments:

    Yeah Isme, I have a hell of a time confronting that chivalry bullshit, especially with so many women buoying it up. I’ve lost many “friends” over it.

    And Ms. A, I am saving “We do not disrespect our truth by diluting its expression with tepid concessions to the sensibilities of people whose behavior demonstrates reflexive devaluation of our thoughts, dismissal our experiences, and distortion our truth – especially to avoid acknowledging an uncomfortable and unflattering reality.”
    so I can reread it on days that I need to feel a bit of support. Thanks.

  120. Muhammad December 4, 2010 at 1:59 PM #

    @Miss Andrist,

    “we do not give a flying fuck about your fee-fees.”
    Yeah, I know. I never asked anyone to tip-toe around my feelings. I initially just wanted to point out that the “male race” is not inherently sick. I know that some men are sick; rapists, paedophiles, murderers and other types of sadists…but it’s not innate to males. That’s all I initially wanted to point out.

    “Instead of responding to what lizor actually said (which would require actually considering it and we can’t have that, now can we) you massage lizor’s remarks to contrive artificial, personal insult”
    No, I wasn’t trying to be confrontational, I was genuinely curious. I know what she meant, I know what kind of guys she’s talking about, I never said she was wrong. I just wanted to know if she said that in regards to any of my comments. What’s wrong with that?

    “…or was that an unintended consequence of having lived all your life with the expectation that your environment will adapt to your presence rather than vice versa?”
    Listen, don’t pretend you know anything about me you arrogant, condescending, pompous, patronizing, buffoon. I’m a Chechen refugee. My family is from Chechnya. I was born in Chechnya and I was raised there until I was 8½, I’m 19 now. My mother and two of my brothers died during the first Chechen war and my father lost his leg. When the second Chechen war started, me, my brother Aslambek and my father came to England. That’s why I live in England. Why do you think that I expect my environment to “adapt to my presence”? I’m used to my environment not panning out how I want it to. Don’t talk as if I’m some spoiled brat that expects everyone to bow down to me. Don’t pretend you know anything about me. Don’t talk about how I perceive the world and how I was brought up. You don’t know anything about me so don’t give me your fucking pompous, arrogant bullshit.

    You think because I’m a male that I waltz around like I think I own the place? You think that I’m some beer-chugging, football-watching oaf who throws his weight around? You think that I’ve lived a sweet, comfy life just because I’m a male? Don’t think that you have me all sussed out just because you think you have the ability to read men like book’s.

    “Alternatively, you could contemplate what they took time to say, mull the idea that maybe she’s saying that YOU ALL do that (collective that happens to include you)”
    I know what’s she’s saying. I never said she was wrong.

    I don’t care if you think you’re a revolutionary feminist ideologue Miss Andrist, stop pretending like you’ve got all men figured out based on the fact that we have penises. Stop throwing superfluous ad hominems around, like a 12 year old. Stop digging around for an argument just because you’ve got a chip on your shoulder. Stop trying to act like a bad mother-fucker on the internet and get your stinky attitude away from me.

  121. isme December 5, 2010 at 12:23 AM #

    Yes, I know Miss Andrist will say it better, but:

    “Yeah, I know. I never asked anyone to tip-toe around my feelings. I initially just wanted to point out that the “male race” is not inherently sick. I know that some men are sick; rapists, paedophiles, murderers and other types of sadists…but it’s not innate to males. That’s all I initially wanted to point out.”

    Good point. One wonders why this point isn’t raised by ever man ever to post on this site. Possibly it might have something to do with the disclaimes splattered across it about the majority not being the same as the whole, or maybe being able to read between the lines or accept generalisations and general trends.

    “You think because I’m a male that I waltz around like I think I own the place?”

    Possibly it might have something to do with being a male on a feminist site having a go at the feminists. Telling people to shut up and respect you because you’re not the sort of person that demands everyone to shut up and respect you self a little counter-productive.

  122. Muhammad December 5, 2010 at 8:00 AM #

    Oh, isme, can you actually point out where I asked anyone to “shut up and respect me” for being a dude? I can’t seem to find where I actually said that.

  123. Muhammad December 5, 2010 at 8:00 AM #

    isme, so you’re saying that I should just take any slanderous insult about men as a general statement, I shouldn’t assume the person is speaking in absolutes? But there are women on here who DO make blatant and absurd blanket statements. There are women saying stuff like “All men want to rape women”, “Men should not be let near children” and that sort of thing…so when hecate says the “male race” is sick it sounded like another absurd blanket statement, it sounded like she was saying there is something INNATE within males that makes us sick, and it’s not like there was any sort of disclaimer to help clarify her point. So what am I to think? I was just pointing out that *perhaps* males aren’t inherently sick, if you agree, what’s the problem?

    “Possibly it might have something to do with being a male on a feminist site having a go at the feminists. Telling people to shut up and respect you because you’re not the sort of person that demands everyone to shut up and respect you self a little counter-productive.”

    No, I’m not criticizing feminist ideology so how is me being a male on a feminist blog relevant? I’m not an anti-feminist. I was simply telling Miss Andrist to stop pretending she knows anything about me. I wasn’t being confrontational at all but Miss Andrist just started being belligerent with me just because I asked a simple question. I’m not asking anyone to “shut up and respect me”, I’m asking her to stop pretending she has clue about how I perceive the world or how I brought up. I won’t lecture you or Miss Andrist about your own personal lives and upbringing and I expect other people here to be perspicacious enough not to do the same to me. Just don’t pretend you know anything about me. That’s all I was saying to Miss Andrist. What’s wrong with that?

    What Miss Andrist was doing was the equivalent of “mansplaining”. She was trying to give me the low-down about my own life and she was being condescending and obnoxious about it.

  124. lizor December 5, 2010 at 2:45 PM #

    Muhammed,

    Find one quote from Miss Andrist and/or Isme that is a “slanderous insult about men” in the posts you refer to. You can’t because there aren’t any.

    You said you were simply asking if I was talking about you – as in “is this all about me??”.

    The answer is I don’t know, because I DO NOT KNOW YOU. A less self-absorbed person would have read the article and then asked THEMSELVES “is this about me?” Your response was extremely entitled.

    As for people assuming to “know you” we only know you based on what you write here and you are sounding extremely self-absorbed. That’s what everyone’s assessment of who you are is based on: your words and the way you engage, (or don’t as the case may be), with other posters here.

    As for Miss Andrist “throwing superfluous ad hominems around” as you charge, she did not. She simply asked you if ” you intentionally punctuate your attempt to bait her with a thinly veiled threat, or was that an unintended consequence of having lived all your life with the expectation that your environment will adapt to your presence rather than vice versa?” and then asked “are you the d00d whose participation has a place in this conversation, or one of the nine hundred ninety-nine who don’t?”

    No ad-hominems at all.

    YOU, however, reply by calling her an “arrogant, condescending, pompous, patronizing, buffoon”, said “don’t give me your fucking pompous, arrogant bullshit… [and]get your stinky attitude away from me.”

    So, you talk like just the sort of asshole you are accusing her and others of being. You accuse everyone here of being [pre]occupied by you you you. Take a fucking looking in the mirror, man.

    Now what I know about you is that you are self absorbed, entitled and a major hypocrite, who apparently has questionable reading skills.

    Read the damn article, look up the word “projection”, and try THINKING before you waste more of our time here with your self-important, ignorant twaddle.

  125. Miss Andrist December 6, 2010 at 11:24 AM #

    @Lizor:

    I’m flattered ^_^ I do try, after all. A little solidarty, moral support and righteous collective rage goes a long way.

  126. joy December 6, 2010 at 5:48 PM #

    Whenever feminists are nice to men on a radical blog, it gives the men boners.

    Look at Andrew.

    I vote we just ignore them, unless and until they contribute.

  127. Muhammad December 7, 2010 at 5:07 AM #

    Okay, let me try this again, calmly (if Nine Deuce will let me).

    Okay, my response to Miss Andrist was emotionally-charged and I reacted with unnecessary hostility, I admit it. Sorry. But I just got annoyed because she was trying to do that ol’ arm-chair psychologist thing on me and assumed that I had my head in the clouds my whole life because I’m a guy. I just don’t need you people telling me about myself when you don’t even know me. She just hit a nerve, that’s all. My emotions got the better of me, sorry.

    lizor, you misunderstood what I meant. You interpreted my query to mean “Is this all about ME?!” and you concluded that I must be self-absorbed and entitled…that’s not what I meant. I should have articulated myself better. I just wanted to know if you were continuing the discussion that I was involved in, or if you were just raising a different point altogether. It was just an innocent question and it wasn’t meant to be passive aggressive or tongue-in-cheek, I was merely curious and I shouldn’t have asked. Sorry.

  128. lizor December 7, 2010 at 7:29 AM #

    Miss A, Joy et al – “A little solidarty, moral support and righteous collective rage goes a long way.”

    Damn right. I come here for that through ND’s brilliant posts, and because hearing from such an array of engaged and thoughtful people gives me new perspectives and gets me thinking in new ways about these issues.

    So I get pretty irritated when too much space gets taken up by repetitive, predictable, self-indulgent verbal flatulence from overly entitled folks like Andrew, Muhammed, etc.

  129. lizor December 7, 2010 at 2:33 PM #

    Muhammed,

    I was responding to Hecate’s comment and the general discussion. If you review your wording “I hope you’re not…” which is not a question, but structurally begs an “or else” – i.e. is defensive with in implied threat. I realize this can be challenging stuff to someone who has not been the recipient of the vast spectrum of sexist attitudes, or who has not spent a lot of time thinking about it, so do try to keep a cool head if you don’t want to piss people off.

    I did not misinterpret you at all, other than to allow that you were “asking”, which you were not, but that said, apology accepted.

  130. Fede December 8, 2010 at 12:31 AM #

    @joy: I’m with you.

    And to every feminist here: I’m getting all sentimental over here. Someone (Miss Andrist, who else) mentioned solidarity, moral support, and righteous collective rage – that’s exactly right. These make the difference between letting all the unrelenting, depressing bullshit drag one down and meeting the challenges head-on, using one’s anger constructively, even drawing strength from it. Plus – let’s not forget – having a good laugh together about the absurdities of sexism, well, that’s just invigorating.

    I have a theory about the tirelessness we see from the men who keep on and on arguing with feminists. Because as predictable as these men generally are, it never ceases to amaze me just how tooth and nail they will struggle to get feminists to agree with them. You’d think it would be easier to just ignore the feminists (tiny marginalised group that we are) and go have fun in the 99.999999999% of the world’s spaces that are dedicated to anti-feminism, no?

    Their learned sense of entitlement to have women agree with them is of course one possible (and very plausible) explanation for this interesting phenomenon. But I always felt there had to be a little bit more to it than that.

    Here (finally) is my theory: such a man instinctively senses that we feminists are in the right, even as he is trying with all his might to deny our truth. Aspiring to be righteous himself, he cannot bear to not be on the same side as us. At this point, the man’s culturally overgrown entitlement trips him up and he feels that for himself and the feminists to be in the same side, the feminists must concede his points and not vice versa. Hence the tooth and nail.

  131. Muhammad December 8, 2010 at 11:55 AM #

    lizor, thanks for accepting my apology. I know that what I said wasn’t posed as a question, that’s why I said I should have articulated myself better. If I had just articulated myself better then I wouldn’t have coaxed Miss Andrist into berating me, but I genuinely didn’t realise that it would piss any of you off so much and I didn’t realise that you would pick it apart so much and extrapolate misogyny and male-entitlement from one little sentence. I wasn’t subconsciously exposing my “inner misogynist” or anything, I just picked the wrong words, I’m sure you must have done that at one time.

    I understand that you don’t like what I said, I admit that I’m not the sharpest pencil in the drawer but I still don’t really understand how I’m apparently “entitled”. You can’t conclude that I’m self-absorbed and entitled from a few words on the internet.

    “I realize this can be challenging stuff to someone who has not been the recipient of the vast spectrum of sexist attitudes, or who has not spent a lot of time thinking about it”
    Yeah, I can’t experience the world from a female perspective but being male doesn’t mean I bumble through life, oblivious to everything and everyone. I haven’t been on the receiving end of misogyny, but me and my family have still been on the receiving end of implacable hatred, violence and persecution for simply being Noxçiy. You don’t have to be female to be the recipient of animosity (I know, I know, you’ve heard that a million times). Being male doesn’t ensure that my life is a walk in the park.

    I’m not trying to be facetious here or nothing, but do you people people view all males as “the enemy”?

  132. Fede December 8, 2010 at 1:38 PM #

    It’s not ‘a few words’, Muhammad. Have you any idea how many words you have put down in here? I can find out for you, if you really want to pursue this point. We judge you on your words here.

    So here’s one response to your last question: no, we don’t view all males as the enemy. The fact that we now view you as an adversary (since, in my opinion, “enemy” is too strong a word yet) should tell you something about your own behaviour. From your very first post here, you have been almost constantly argumentative. You have no right to be; this is a feminist forum. A little perspective: being white, I have no right to be argumentative with people of colour in a forum that focuses on racism.

    As a man, you should not presume to tell feminists something they don’t know about how widespread misogyny is or is not. The fact that you did try to correct feminists here tells us you have some nerve – this is the nerve we refer to as entitlement. It is not just something we assume you have, it is something we observe in you. And yes, it pisses us off. It pisses me off personally, even though I believe you have some good intentions buried in there somewhere.

    If you are serious about getting to understand feminism rather than being in the way, you really need to lurk a lot longer before you start weighing in with your ten billion cents.

    PS: @joy – I’m so sorry. I took the bait of the hanging chad. In the future, I shall try to follow your suggestion!

  133. joy December 8, 2010 at 3:55 PM #

    Haha, no worries, Fede!

    Although I admit, I -do- tend to judge men. If they can post successfully for a time without alerting me to the fact that they’re men (ie, I can actually assume they are women), then that’s different. Most of them can’t.

  134. lizor December 9, 2010 at 6:34 AM #

    A few weeks ago I explained to a friend of mine that I have never raped anyone, I have never bawled out the window of a car at a passing man my assessment of his relative attractiveness, I have never ordered a guy in the street to “smile”, I have not used male gender descriptions to infer ineptitude nor have I hired/not hired any of the men I have employed over the years based on their visual appeal, nor have I paid them less then their female counterparts – I could go on, but I think you get the picture – yet I am inevitably asked when I point out these chronic behaviours in men “Do you really hate men that much?”

    It’s fairly grating when you consider rapes statistics, the malignant growth of the sex “industry”, the wage gap, lack of representation in public office, M on F spousal abuse/murder stats (and so on) to hear the question “do you people really view all males as ‘the enemy’?”

    Why don’t you ask yourself, Muhammed, why so many men BEHAVE as if women are the enemy. Once you’ve developed a solid theory on that, why don’t you take it to a men’s forum and introduce it as a topic there?

    Seriously.

  135. Fede December 9, 2010 at 9:12 AM #

    LOL

    I sez: Muhammad, you’re being argumentative.

    Muhammad sez: No, I’m not!

  136. Muhammad December 9, 2010 at 10:42 AM #

    Fede, I think you’ve misunderstood where I’m coming from. I’m not an anti-feminist, I’m not an MRA, I don’t disagree with the tenets of feminism. I never said that misogyny doesn’t exist.

    “It’s not ‘a few words’, Muhammad. Have you any idea how many words you have put down in here?”
    No, that’s not what I meant. The post that seems to have pissed everyone off is the comment I directed at lizor, that’s what got Miss Andrist all riled up. I’m referring to a *specific* comment I made.

    “From your very first post here, you have been almost constantly argumentative”
    Not true. My first post on this thread wasn’t argumentative, I was actually agreeing with 9-2. Go back and read it if you want. Again, I think you’ve misunderstood me. At no point have I ever said that feminism is a flawed movement or ideology. I was originally just saying that in my social circle, porn isn’t popular (especially true of the Muslim boys I went to school with), I wasn’t being very argumentative at all really. I never said any of you were flat-out wrong about feminism, did I? I never said that misogyny doesn’t exist or anything like that.

    “You have no right to be [argumentative]; this is a feminist forum”
    So I’m not allowed to even be dubious of the statements that “Porn is the ultimate male-bonding session” and “The male race is sick”? I was just (mildly) criticizing an individuals comments, not your entire ideology. Why is that not allowed? Surely you should encourage debate, not discourage it? Am I supposed to just agree with everything everyone ever says on here? Am I supposed to agree with EVERYTHING that ANY feminist ever says, lest I be labelled a “misogynistic, entitled, ignorant male”?

    “As a man, you should not presume to tell feminists something they don’t know about how widespread misogyny is or is not. The fact that you did try to correct feminists here tells us you have some nerve – this is the nerve we refer to as entitlement. It is not just something we assume you have, it is something we observe in you.”
    But I HAVEN’T done that! I didn’t know that questioning anything anyone says here was so frowned upon. Even when I get involved in Creation-Evolution debates, everyone welcomes opposing opinions with open arms, I assumed people here would be the same. I just wanted to initially point out that not ALL males are sick misogynists. I never intended for you to interpret that as “Misogyny doesn’t exist! You’re all wrong! I’m always right! I know more than you about everything!!!”. Look back on what I actually said:
    “I’m not denying that this ridiculous ‘masculine’ gender role pressures men to adopt questionable behaviour, I was just saying that the male ‘race’ is not ‘sick’, a lot of males reject the role they were assigned at birth by society.”

    What’s so unreasonable about that?

    I really don’t know what you want me to say, what am I supposed to say? This feels like treading on egg-shells, I feel like everything I say will be interpreted as misogynistic. What is it I’ve actually said that you disagree with? Because if you don’t disagree with anything I’ve said, then what’s the problem?

  137. Muhammad December 9, 2010 at 1:31 PM #

    Yeah, I was right, this really is like treading on egg-shells. I asked a simple question just out of curiosity and I still managed to pissed you off. I simply asked: “I’m not trying to be facetious here or nothing, but do you people people view all males as ‘the enemy’?”. Notice the bit where I said “I’m not trying to be facetious”…the reason I added that bit in there was to make it clear that I wasn’t trying to be passive-aggressive or cheeky, I really did just want a straight-forward answer, not a vitriolic tirade. I NEVER said or implied that you should just accept that misogyny exists and take it on the chin. I don’t think you understood my question so there’s no need to bite my head off and call me a “twerp”.

    The reason I ask is because if you DO see all males as “the enemy”, and if I’m the enemy and unwelcome by feminists by virtue of having a penis then I’m just wasting my time by even conversing with you because nothing I say could ever be good enough for you and I can’t imagine how I could ever contribute to a movement that wants nothing to do with me and wants me to just go away and die. If I’m automatically the enemy and there’s nothing I can do to prevent you hating me, then I don’t know how I can align myself with feminists if they simply turn me away at the door and point to the sign that says “No Penises Allowed!”.

  138. Muhammad December 9, 2010 at 1:39 PM #

    Fede, I never said I know more about sexism than you and I never tried to lecture you on patriarchy. I can’t stress this enough; I never meant to inadvertently trivialize misogyny or imply that it doesn’t exist or its effects don’t matter, I do acknowledge that misogyny is prevalent in our society and it is a real detriment. I know this is just going to make me sound paranoid, but I can’t help but notice that my words keep getting kinda twisted around and I somehow come out being made to look like a chauvinistic anti-feminist here, I think maybe I’m not articulating myself well enough or something.

    “It IS a basic tenet of feminism that porn is a fundamental form of woman-hating male bonding.”
    I know porn is misogynistic. All I was originally saying is that I’ve never seen or heard of men actually BONDING over porn. It’s not my fault that so far in my life I’ve never seen any males bonding through porn. I don’t think I even understand how that would work, how do people “bond” over porn? Do they watch it together or something? I know that porn is misogynistic, I never denied that, I was just questioning the “bonding” part…I’ve never heard of that sort of thing. I spent the first 8 years of my life in a war-torn, religious (Sunni Muslim) region of eastern Europe and then I went to a religious school in London full of Salafi Muslims, so I obviously don’t really know much about porn so I’m sorry if I sound naive about this stuff.

    “It IS a basic tenet of feminism that the male race in a patriarchy is sick. I have tried to explain to you what is meant by these assertions but you identify too strongly with your sex not to become defensive”.
    That’s not true. I clearly agreed with you that the male gender role pressures men to act like dick-heads…look back on the things I’ve said: “I’m not denying that this ridiculous ‘masculine’ gender role pressures men to adopt questionable behaviour” and “I know that there is peer pressure among certain males to act like douches”. I clearly acknowledged that the patriarchy has a detrimental effect on male behaviour.

    “‘I just wanted to initially point out that not ALL males are sick misogynists.’
    Shame on you for implying that we don’t know that. How stupid do you think we are?”
    But some women don’t seem to know that. I’ve spoken to women who adamantly INSIST that EVERY single male has an evil, sinister, sadistic misogynist within him. Hecate didn’t leave any sort of disclaimer after her blanket statement, she didn’t say “btw, I’m just generalizing”, am I supposed to fabricate a clarifying disclaimer in my imagination? There was nothing to distinguish hecate’s comment with one of those women who make a rash and unfounded blanket statement. Anywho, when I said that “not EVERY male is a sick misogynist”, I said it to hecate, not you.

  139. Fede December 9, 2010 at 2:53 PM #

    Muhammad,

    I keep replying to you because there are a few tiny little points I still like about the way you come across here. Most importantly, the simple fact that you don’t like the label anti-feminist is agreeable in itself. Now for the points where we continue to disagree:

    Being the original target of bigotry makes a person an expert on that particular form of discimination; in this case sexism. Quite simply put, I know more about sexism than you ever could. That’s why I’m not interested in your self-styled ‘debate’. You don’t get to tell me what the particular oppression I suffer is or is not like, and you don’t get to be argumantative about it, since you are not the original target of misogyny and therefore can go through life overlooking a lot of the misogyny that goes on right under your nose. I don’t even blame you for that (it’s frustrating, but understandable), because your life experience can just never be like mine in a patriarchal society.

    Likewise, I don’t get to be argumentative about what it’s like to be a person of colour in a racist society, or what it’s like to be a Muslim in a Christian society that is skewed against you. What is it about this principle that you don’t grasp?

    “I was just (mildly) criticizing an individuals comments, not your entire ideology.”
    This is where you are wrong. It IS a basic tenet of feminism that porn is a fundamental form of woman-hating male bonding. It IS a basic tenet of feminism that the male race in a patriarchy is sick. I have tried to explain to you what is meant by these assertions but you identify too strongly with your sex not to become defensive.

    You are – perhaps without even noticing it yourself – trying to force us to talk about individuals. We do not want to talk about individuals. Individuals did not create patriarchy. Individuals do not uphold patriarchy. We want to address the problem of misogyny, see, and that problem is pandemic. It is not about individuals. That’s why we talk about the male race and male bonding. Not because we think there are no exceptions to the rules, but because the rules are what we are interested in.

    “I just wanted to initially point out that not ALL males are sick misogynists.”
    Shame on you for implying that we don’t know that. How stupid do you think we are?

  140. Fede December 9, 2010 at 3:09 PM #

    I am saving that last comment of yours, lizor, so I can read it aloud to the next twerp who asks me ‘do you people view all men as the enemy?’

    Such hypocrites. How dare they.

  141. Hecate December 10, 2010 at 12:55 AM #

    Blanket, schmanket, Muhammad. You’ve proven yourself to be a dullard and a gasbag here. Your posts are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Yawn.

  142. Miss Andrist December 10, 2010 at 4:07 AM #

    @Fede:

    Regarding your theory about men’s reaction to being confronted with our collective rage, some thoughts:

    Collective guilt.

    Collective rage – the rage provoked by the abuses suffered by members of our class, not necessarily ourselves personally or anyone we personally know.

    Collective guilt is the inverse – the guilt provoked by members of an oppressor class when faced with clear evidence of the harm inflicted on behalf of all members of the oppressor class, regardless of individual or overt participation. White folks suffer collective guilt in the face of minority collective rage same as men in the face of women and both react the same – “Not ALL whites / men / het / Christian / abled / etc. are (whatever)-ist!” Which always means “I feel guilty and I don’t think I should have to, so you have to make a special group of non-assholes so I can belong to that group instead of the one that’s fucking up your life.” And it springs from a profound sense of entitlement to privilege.

    @Muhammed:

    I just clipped this quote from the end of Fede’s post. You said:
    “I just wanted to initially point out that not ALL males are sick misogynists.”

    “Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.”
    -Andrea Dworkin, ‘I Want A 24-Hour Truce In Which There Is No Rape’

    If we believed every man was in fact a complete waste, we wouldn’t be here talking about it.

    Individuals DO create the patriarchy. No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood. You’re determined to get us to admit that YOU are not the asshole we’re looking for. All of you d00ds who barges into our dialogue demanding we consider / reconsider, who refuses to acknowledge that our point remains valid unless we include a caveat referencing all the so-called non-misogynistic d00ds is doing so because you’re afraid we’re talking about you.

    Guess what?

    We are.

    Lots of raindrops in the flood.

    Your “point” has been the subject of entire books written by some of the greatest authors of radical feminism a generation ago. (I suggest you start with “Refusing to be a Man,” by John Stoltenberg.) The only person not discussing from the perspective that these “points” are actually non-negotiable matters of fact? Is you.

    Until you get with that, you are the asshole we’re talking about. The only way to stop being that asshole is to stop trying to force us to talk about men’s concerns (which is what, that not all men are that asshole? Why the fuck would we worry about the men who aren’t the problem? Presumably, they’re not getting defensive because they know we’re not talking about them) and start talking about ours.

    The men who participate here do exactly that.

    -Miss Andrist
    Lover of Men

  143. Hecate December 10, 2010 at 10:35 AM #

    Well emlee, I’m sure you and Muhammad will become fast friends. Why not go off and start your own blog about how wonderful and adorable and cute and fluffy men are? It bothers me that your grammar is just about below the level of a 5th grader. You want to talk about ‘disturbing?’ Well, there you go! You can be your own unsettling case study.

    If a bunch of eloquent women on a deeply interesting blog site ‘disturbs’ you, I’d hate to see your idea of enlightenment. As for myself, I reserve my right to any opinion I may voice regarding the ‘male race’ whenever and however I like.

  144. joy December 10, 2010 at 12:40 PM #

    ““I just wanted to initially point out that not ALL males are sick misogynists.””

    Oh yeah, buddy?

    Fucking prove it.

    I’ve been waiting. A damn long time, too.

  145. emlee December 10, 2010 at 1:01 PM #

    another great article in the antiporn series. i’ve been antiporn for a longtime but now i’ll be armed with better arguments when the issue comes up with my friends. but if they keep calling me ‘sex negative’ i don’t know if we’ll be friends much longer.

    i’ve been skimming thru the comments and i saw 1 that disturbed me by someone named hecate:

    “They feel a sense of power when they see women abused and humiliated in porn, and that sense of power is amplified because they know their buddies feel the same thing when viewing it. It’s pretty sick, but that’s the male race for you…”

    i object to your term “the male race.” r u saying that the differences in behavior + attitude between males/females is all/mostly biological? that males being more oriented towards violence/domination than females is due to biology?

    males n females are not separate races. (neither r people of different colors/ethnicities for that matter. race is a social construct.)

    the differences in behavior/attitude between males/females r due to patriarchal gender socialization. probably there’s some biological basis for the differences, but to a very small degree. whatever innate differences might exist r increased to the extreme by socialization.

    calling us different races is like saying there’s no good guys around today. and worse, it’s like saying there’s no hope for abolishing sexism, that “boys will always be boys,” n that every single male is biologically destined to be a violent domineering asshole. what a demoralizing and demobilizing thought. why try to fight sexism at all if this is the case? n why should any guy try to overcome his sexism if that’s his nature?

    maybe you didn’t mean to imply all this but when you use a term like “the male race” this is what you end up implying like it or not.

  146. Fede December 10, 2010 at 2:28 PM #

    Miss Andrist,

    How right you are about collective guilt. I believe that’s exactly it.

    Also, you put forward that individuals DO create the patriarchy. Quite right. What I was trying (poorly) to express was that the patriarchy is not the creation of a few exceptional misogynist assholes.

    Likewise, when I said that ‘individuals do not uphold the patriarchy’, that was imprecise to the point of being wrong. What I should have said is that if misogyny was really only a problem with some limited number of individuals (as Muhammad seems to think), patriarchy would not be upheld. Misogyny is a systemic problem which goes much deeper than just a few rotten apples. That is what I was trying to convey. What I certainly did not mean to imply is that patriarchy is just some nebulous, faceless enemy and it’s really no one’s fault it’s there.

    Inarticulate Fede thanks you for clearing that up, Miss A. ;)

  147. isme December 10, 2010 at 5:17 PM #

    @Emlee, fortun ately this point has been discussed in great detail in this very thread, just before your own post.

    @Miss Andrist…I tend to disagree about colletive guilt. To me, it seems more of a total refusal to believe that women are being mistreated, which logically follows from the assumption that women are supposed to be treated in a certain way (possibly as a result of the jsut world fallacy, or maybe just cause misogyny is sexy). Nothing wrong with society’s treatment of women if they are supposed to be oppressed.

    Though, not going to make much practical difference.

  148. Fede December 10, 2010 at 5:17 PM #

    Well, asking in a feminist forum, ‘do you people view all males as the enemy’ is a decidedly twerpy thing to do, Muhammad. It’s the star tile of the bullshit bingo. But notice I didn’t actually call you a twerp. I just said the next twerp who asks that question gets lizor’s comment read out loud to them.

    OK, you’re quite right, it was a veiled insult. I wanted to see if you would understand one of those if it was directed at you. Because you don’t seem to understand that you have been pouring out insults by the gallon in here. The fact that you don’t even seem to know when you’re being offensive does not make it any better, trust me.

    You say that you honestly want an answer to whether or not a person with a penis is welcome here. OK. Let’s talk penises. Yet again. Because if you had lurked long enough before you started gabbing, you would know that Nine Deuce has already answered that exact question. Penises are not disallowed. Wielding the privilege that comes with the penis, however, is.

    Let me explain to you why you come across as wielding your privilege and as having the typical male sense of entitlement:

    You’re an absolute beginner wanting to train together with the Olympic hopefuls and getting sore when they tell you that you’re wasting their time. Who but someone with an enormously bloated self image would do that? Hence the accusations of male entitlement.

    The feminists here are way out of your league when it comes to feminism, but you keep asking silly questions and making feeble points; in effect your commenting is turning this pro training ground into Feminism101 instead, thereby holding back the debate. That’s why you’re annoying people; you want to participate on equal terms with the pros, but you’re nowhere near ready for their level.

    It’s not the Olympic hopefuls’ job to constantly hold themselves back to accomodate you; you need to do your own research. But just because they are not here for your benefit does not mean you cannot benefit from them.

    So look, the problem is not that you’re here. It’s actually really cool that you’re here – or rather, it could be if you would just put a sock in it and observe. You might learn something.

  149. emlee December 10, 2010 at 10:58 PM #

    “Well emlee, I’m sure you and Muhammad will become fast friends. Why not go off and start your own blog about how wonderful and adorable and cute and fluffy men are? It bothers me that your grammar is just about below the level of a 5th grader. You want to talk about ‘disturbing?’ Well, there you go! You can be your own unsettling case study.”

    geez, hecate. for someone who doesn’t like the “male race”, you sure act like the genitalia that swings between their legs. you’re just… mean. goodbye.

  150. Hecate December 11, 2010 at 3:08 PM #

    Ah yes, anyone who has an opinion is a horrible bitch! Where have we heard that before? Hmm…

    Brings to mind this video:

    http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/abstinence-only-education-lesson-2-girls-shouldnt-have-ideas-video/

    You can choose which girl you want to be. It has nothing to do with me.

  151. Fede December 11, 2010 at 6:18 PM #

    I was saying, about this whole ‘male race’ question earlier, that I don’t think feminists should have to put disclaimers on everything they say for the benefit of men. I stand by that. In Miss Andrist’s response to Muhammad (December 10, 2010 at 4:07 AM) she explains very eloquently why we are not concerned with discussing the few men who are not part of the problem. And so we shouldn’t always have to state for the record that we do not think that every last individual man on the planet is a murderous rapist. That’s a given.

    That said, I still think the point you are making is worthwhile, emlee. Is there a danger that the way we express ourselves when we speak in righteous anger can lead to a defeatist attitude? What we definitely don’t want to endorse is the assertion that ‘boys will be boys’, you’re right there! Boys will hella stop being boys if I have anything to say about it. Instead they will do a John Stoltenberg on the patriarchy.

  152. Muhammad December 11, 2010 at 9:17 PM #

    hecate:
    “Blanket, schmanket, Muhammad. You’ve proven yourself to be a dullard and a gasbag here. Your posts are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Yawn.”
    What the fuck was that? Why did you just randomly chuck an ad hominem at me? Why are you trying to coax me into retaliating and arguing with you? I’m not letting you reel me into a bitching fest.

    @Miss Andrist:
    “You’re determined to get us to admit that YOU are not the asshole we’re looking for. All of you d00ds who barges into our dialogue demanding we consider / reconsider, who refuses to acknowledge that our point remains valid unless we include a caveat referencing all the so-called non-misogynistic d00ds is doing so because you’re afraid we’re talking about you”
    I was absolutely NOT trying to barge into the middle of your dialogue and demand anything. All I was doing was leaving a benign and mundane comment that I didn’t think anyone would really pay attention to. I wasn’t trying to “force” you to talk about men’s concerns, I thought everyone here would just brush me off. You’re attempting to make it look as if I’m trying to push women’s concerns under the rug and you’re making out as if I’m saying “your problems don’t matter, pay attention to us men”…my original comment directed at hecate was totally harmless, I simply said “some of us are trying our best”, I had no idea that would be misconstrued to mean that “my man problems are bigger than yours. Talk about INDIVIDUAL men, make a special category for us non-assholes”. When I originally pointed out that some of us men are trying our best, it wasn’t even the main point of my comment; I just flippantly popped it on the end of my comment on a whim and I’m now seeing how much of a terrible mistake that was. I didn’t think that saying “some of us are trying our best” would infuriate people so much, I take it back if you want. I wasn’t trying to derail the discussion at all, I didn’t think I would even come up on anybody’s radar and I was trying to not come across as offensive or arrogant. I did get hostile once with you Miss Andrist but I said sorry, that was a mistake and I shouldn’t have done it…but you people are trying to reel me into an argument by insulting me so you got what you wanted I guess.

    The only reason I need to keep commenting is because people here keep twisting my words around and misrepresenting what I say so I have to keep clarifying what I actually meant. You people keep reading between the lines and extrapolating all of these hidden misogynistic meanings (that aren’t even there) from everything I say so I have to keep coming back to say “No, that’s not what I meant”. You’re talking about me as if I’m some kind of meat-brain MRA who barged in here and bellowed “what are you silly little women moaning about? Feminism is just man-hating propaganda!”. I haven’t attacked feminism at all yet.

    The weird thing is though, you people say that you know that not EVERY man is a sick misogynist and you say that it’s ridiculous that I think I even need to point that out but joy just admitted that she does indeed think every man is a sick misogynist. Didn’t she just contradict what all of you have been telling me?

  153. Muhammad December 11, 2010 at 10:46 PM #

    @Fede:
    “Because you don’t seem to understand that you have been pouring out insults by the gallon in here”
    How so? When I first came here I was very careful not to step on anyone’s toes. But like the idiot I am, I allowed Miss Andrist to reel me in and coax me into being belligerent and hostile, then I apologised. Apart from that, I haven’t done any insulting (even though you’re trying hard to reel me in to get me to retaliate). Most of my comments here are me clarifying what I’ve already said because you people utterly insist upon twisting all of my words around so I end up looking like a entitled misogynist.

    “You’re an absolute beginner wanting to train together with the Olympic hopefuls and getting sore when they tell you that you’re wasting their time. Who but someone with an enormously bloated self image would do that? Hence the accusations of male entitlement.”
    This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. I’m not arguing with you because we’re on the same side, there’s nothing to argue about. I’m not trying to lecture you on feminism and I really can’t understand why you think that’s the case. I’ve just been repeatedly clarifying all of my previous comments because you keep strrretching them and making them somehow misogynistic. I’ve just had to repeatedly assure you that I do indeed know misogyny exists. Why do you think I’m trying to argue with you? I’m on your side! This argument is 100% totally pointless!

    I didn’t even mean to leave this many comments here, I thought I would leave a few paragraphs, then no-one would take any notice of my humdrum comments and I would be on my way. I left one little bland comment about how *some* men are “trying their best”, I didn’t mean much by it but you’ve taken that one tiny statement to mean that I’m trying to lecture you all on feminism and that I deny the existence of misogyny and I’m therefore “entitled”. This argument would end if you weren’t so hung up on that one dim comment I made…do you want me to apologise for saying “some of us are trying our best”? Because I will if it means that much to you. If it means we can end this tremendously POINTLESS argument so I can just go put my head in the oven, then I’ll take back the fucking comment. Would that make you happy?

    “The feminists here are way out of your league when it comes to feminism, but you keep asking silly questions and making feeble points; in effect your commenting is turning this pro training ground into Feminism101 instead, thereby holding back the debate. That’s why you’re annoying people; you want to participate on equal terms with the pros, but you’re nowhere near ready for their level.”
    No. Why are you being so melodramatic? Calm down, I’m not interested in starting a little war on a feminist blog in order to bring about the end times. I have no interest in “participating on equal terms with the pros” because I’m not under the delusion that feminism is my forté. I want to leave this blog but you won’t let me because you keep twisting every single thing I say and I have to come back and reiterate myself over and over again. I have to keep reassuring you that I know that misogyny exists and that you’re rilly rilly smart and you know more about feminism, how many more times do we have to go over these points? What do you want from me?

    I’m not holding back the debate, I want to fucking leave, YOU’RE holding back the debate because if you could just stop twisting around everything I’m saying then I could leave this forum and then shoot myself in the face. That is all I want here.

    I really don’t know what this argument is. There is literally NO point to this. Can you actually tell me what we’re arguing about?

  154. Muhammad December 12, 2010 at 12:37 AM #

    @fede, emlee pretty much said what I said (more elaborately), but you called her point “worthwhile”, but when I say it I’m just a bumbling moron? I was getting at the same ting as emlee, why is it valid when emlee says it but stupid when I say it? What gives?

  155. joy December 12, 2010 at 12:51 AM #

    It’s really possible that socialization has poisoned approximately 98 to 99 percent of males. (I’m being generous.)

    Either that or there are a very small number of rapists doing all this raping. And every other man who isn’t raping, is bound and gagged to a chair. Wait. That certainly isn’t true. Hence …

    Because if there really were “good ones” out there, they would be out in force protesting the patriarchy.

    Seen that happening?

    No?

    Me either.

    Ever.

    So. Even if it’s not their biological imperative, men are our enemies. Thinking that “there are good ones” is defeatist and counterproductive.

    They’re all assholes, until they prove otherwise.

    Call me a bitch, go ahead. I’m just being pragmatic.

  156. isme December 12, 2010 at 5:08 AM #

    “I’m not trying to lecture you on feminism and I really can’t understand why you think that’s the case. I’ve just been repeatedly clarifying all of my previous comments because you keep strrretching them and making them somehow misogynistic”

    You have been told be several feminists and/or female persons that something you have said is misogynistic. Instead of accepting that they are likely to be in a better position to determine this than you (or disagreeing, but silently, to avoid antagonising them further), you have taken it upon yourself to explain to them how they are incorrect, and that you therefore know more about feminism that you do.

    What reaction did you expect to receive?

    Look, I understand that you don’t mean to do it, and that the feminists have left you feeling hurt, confused and upset. If you’re really not suffering from male privilege, then the best way to prove it is to put up with it.

    Yes, you’ve had your ego bruised by a bunch of faceless women via the net. Yes, you’re angry, and maybe feeling betrayed that they didn’t welcome you as an ally/saviour. Yes, you don’t know what you’re arguing about anymore, but you don’t want to lose the argument.

    But you are absolutely, definately, positively not going to win by continuing to argue, all you are doing is digging yourself deeper and further proving your opponents right.

    And yes, if you are just another sufferer of male-entitlement as you appear to be and vigourously deny, you’ll ignore everything I’ve said and keep going.

  157. Miss Andrist December 12, 2010 at 5:28 AM #

    @Fede:

    http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2008/04/23/pornpart6/#comment-17367

    Ha, I never questioned your understanding of the systemic nature of oppression – but I knew Muhammed wouldn’t get it. He doesn’t have the background to realize that you were describing placing blame on society rather than any one individual while holding all individuals responsible for fixing society. Any veteran commenter here is unquestionably a radfem**, and one of the most remarkable (and telling) characteristics of radical feminism is how individuals reasoning on these topics all somehow achieve such distinctly uniform conclusions. You knew what you were talking about; I could tell what you meant. Just wanted to make a point, I never doubted you for a second. ^_^

    **Except Andrew, if tenure is the only requirement to qualify as a veteran.

    Your comment here: http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2008/04/23/pornpart6/#comment-17369 is MAGICAL. I just read it out loud to a friend. I’m going to link to it when this comes up in the future.

    -Miss Andrist
    Lover of Men

  158. Miss Andrist December 12, 2010 at 5:59 AM #

    @isme

    My bad, I didn’t expound – the refusal to admit or acknowledge harm to women would qualify as denial, a behavioral symptom of guilt. I can’t think of any reaction (denial, justifying, trivializing, etc) that doesn’t completely qualify as avoidance of guilt and aversion to consequence (forfeiting privilege.) Here’s a link with a nifty graphic showing the psychological progression ( http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/guilt.htm ) I ran across while ruminating this idea and it’s implications.

    If I’m right, overcoming that stonewalling bullshit would be at least marginally easier by addressing it as denial of guilt. I say, it’s worth experiment?

    -Miss Andrist
    Lover of Men

  159. lizor December 12, 2010 at 8:52 AM #

    “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”
    – A.L.

    Holy shit, Muhammed just can’t stop gobbling up the column inches. Now that he is clearly over in Andrew-land, I am not reading his long tap dancing diatribes, but a quick scan shows his constant reference to all of the individuals here as “you people”.

    Other much Muhammed?

    I also caught the amusing assertion that Fede’s clear-eyed point about the discussion being way over his head was “melodramatic”. Then he orders her to “Calm down”! Oh dear. Way to not get it.

    Obviously he was too much in a froth to even read or consider my suggestion that he quit displaying his ignorance, educate himself (by reading this, for example: http://web.archive.org/web/20070402172337/http://www.feminista.com/archives/v1n2/stoltenberg.html) and then speak on a forum of other men (if he is serious about expanding his consciousness when it comes to systemic misogyny).

    I expect in a men’s feminist forum, he will not be so quick to take up space telling “you people” how they are fucking up.

    Here’s a place to start, Muhammed: http://www.antipornmen.org/
    Please check it out.

  160. Fede December 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM #

    @Miss Andrist: It was good of you not to doubt me. And I’m totally stoked that you liked my Olympics comment! Honoured, actually, since you are one of the voices in here that I think very highly of. :D

    @lizor: I love the quote! And those are some good links you provided.

    @Muhammad: you asked about the difference between your point and emlee’s. Well, the difference was that she had a point, namely that we want to steer clear of the kind of thinking that leads people to say ‘boys will be boys,’ thereby condoning laddish behaviour. (‘Laddish’ not being an affectionate term here.) There was no such detectable point in your comment, only defensiveness.
    “Why are you being so melodramatic? Calm down, I’m not interested in starting a little war on a feminist blog in order to bring about the end times.”
    LOL, another tile in the Bingo. Your attempt to be condescending would have had more chance of success if it were not so clear that yours are the knickers in an evidently very painful twist.
    You’re distressed that the people here actually listened to you and told you about the semantic content of your words since you did not appear to be aware of it yourself. You’d expected us to just ignore you, you say? Well, that’s not how we were raised. We can’t help it if our synapses fire when we engage with the world around us. Don’t hate us for being such beautiful minds, Muhammad!
    And with that, I have responded to anything of yours for the last time. In the future, kindly do not address me again, sweetheart, and I’ll show you the same courtesy.

  161. Sic December 12, 2010 at 12:56 PM #

    Muhammed…

    As a general rule I refrain from commenting here and only lurk, because this is a feminist space and I’m male. In case you’ve come across the term, I’m what’s called a Nigel. I’m breaking my rule because this has become too grating.

    “When I first came here I was very careful not to step on anyone’s toes.”
    -You are a (blatantly obvious) male posting in a feminist blog, a space for and about women – you’re stepping on toes just by intruding.

    “I allowed Miss Andrist to reel me in and coax me into being belligerent and hostile”
    -No. You jumped right in to that on your own, there was no coaxing involved. The only one to blame for your behaviour is yourself. Attempting to blame and hold accountable Miss Andrist or anyone else for how you carry yourself is going to fail miserably. She just didn’t bother catering to your fees when attempting to help you stop misunderstanding everything everyone is saying to you.

    “I haven’t done any insulting (even though you’re trying hard to reel me in to get me to retaliate).”
    -Really? I’m calling bullshit. If you haven’t insulted anyone, what do you call this? “Listen, don’t pretend you know anything about me you arrogant, condescending, pompous, patronizing, buffoon.”

    “because you people”
    -A classic example of what to say when you want to piss off those whom you are addressing by attempting to make them be ‘the others’, ‘the different ones’, ‘the ones who just are not right like the rest of us.’

    -The ‘argument’, as you dubbed it, about how you’re out of your league is valid. Here’s an analogy for you: an Israeli goes to a Palestinian blog focused on resolving the issues between the countries and makes a post that pointing out not all Jews are bad. When the Palestinian’s take offence, the Israeli not only can’t understand why but even goes so far as asking the Palestinians if all ‘you people are anti-Semitic jihadists who view non-Muslims as “the enemy?”‘ Even though no insult or offence was intended – I highly doubt that anyone would care; nor do I believe that the turmoil likely to result would be due to the community misunderstanding the offender, no matter how much the offender explains.
    -The completely unnecessary and extremely offensive act of the Israeli derailing the discussion on the reconciliatory Palestinian blog about real and actual Palestinian problems to point out that not all Jews are bad and to ask if all Muslims are anti-Semitic jihadists who view non-Muslims as the enemy, is like you and the legion of others who have felt the need to point out the existence of non-misogynistic males on blogs like this one – hell, especially this one; the URL isn’t a typo, this site is called ‘Rage Against the Man-Chine’ for a reason.

    -In case you were curious, yes. That example was deliberately constructed in an attempt to provide what I believe to be a comparable example with which you -a self-identified Sunni Muslim called “Muhammed”- would be more easily able to identify to demonstrate how disrespectful and offensive a transgression those posts can be when coming from somebody who admits to knowing next to nothing about what and to whom they are speaking.

    ***I hope it is clear to everyone, especially you, that my intention was to fabricate a fictional case analogous to the one in this thread to show the similarity by comparison between two parallel objectionable scenarios. In no way do I mean to actually trivialize the very serious subjects I have described and should any take offence to my analogy, I offer my sincere apologies. This is not an invitation to derail.***

    “I didn’t even mean to leave this many comments here.”
    -Did you accidentally type all this in your sleep, or were you ‘reeled in and coaxed’ into leaving more comments than you allotted yourself? If you didn’t want to leave this many comments, why did you keep typing? Oh, you kept typing because you got attention for having posted something that has been said so many times for so long as to have become innumerable. Every site, every blog, every forum has their list of things that get said again and again and again by someone who just showed up and thinks the group at large is unaware – a list of things that anyone who bothered to read even a handful of threads before posting would know are so basic and overstated (both in their quantity and the poster’s emphasized importance), that to say them yet again is folly. You apparently couldn’t be bothered to learn about either the subject or community before posting, you couldn’t be asked to use the resources or advice provided in response, and instead of a genuine request for help, you keep commenting when don’t like the response – you didn’t accidentally make all those post.

    “This argument would end if you weren’t so hung up on that one dim comment I made.”
    -So it’s the fault of everyone else that you’re not getting the point and that you can’t let go of the fact that you aren’t being doted on by women?

    “I’ll take back the fucking comment. Would that make you happy?”
    -You can’t take back what’s been said once you’ve put it out there – you can only try to hide it and pretend it didn’t happen. I honestly doubt that you’ll find anyone here who would be happy about you trying to white-wash them.

    -And yes, you are not ready to participate on the same level as those who have previously replied to you in this thread. Fede’s illustration of why no one is impressed with you turning this into Feminism 101 wasn’t melodramatic – it was an analogy. While not the most histrionic option you’ve provided, this is a better example of melodrama than Fede’s post: “I’m not interested in starting a little war on a feminist blog in order to bring about the end times.”

    “I want to leave this blog but you won’t let me”
    -Quit trying to blame other people because not happy with a truth that isn’t coated in honey and sugar. You’re the one who keeps coming back of your own free will. None of the other posters are holding a gun to your head and forcing you to keep commenting under pain of death.

    “I have to keep reassuring you that I know that misogyny exists and that you’re rilly rilly smart and you know more about feminism, how many more times do we have to go over these points? What do you want from me?”
    -No, you don’t. You do however appear to feel the need to keep ‘setting those feminists straight’ and engage in patronizing behaviour while doing so. In regards to how many more times you’ll need to iterate these points, probably until either you find the ability to take ownership of your actions and stop arguing or everyone decides to stop wasting time on you and move on. I’d be willing to bet that what more than a few here want from you, is for you to shut up and listen – you might learn something.

    “I’m not holding back the debate, I want to fucking leave, YOU’RE holding back the debate because if you could just stop twisting around everything I’m saying then I could leave this forum and then shoot myself in the face. That is all I want here.”
    -Claiming that you are not holding back the debate belies the combined weight of Four-Thousand, Eight-Hundred and Thirty-Four words posted mostly to ‘clarify what you’ve already said.’ I’m a latecomer to this discussion but reading the progression reminds more and more of Pee-Wee Herman screaming, ‘I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I!?’

    “I really don’t know what this argument is. There is literally NO point to this. Can you actually tell me what we’re arguing about?”
    -Do you really expect anyone here to go back through your conversations, and enumerate all the sundry issues in a nice neat concise list for you? I’m of the impression that should any item not appear on the list provided, that you’d turn around with a reply similar to ‘Ah-Ha! You’re Wrong! This OTHER argument is the one I meant!’

    -A bit of advice if you plan on sticking around, take what people say here very literally and pay attention to what you might otherwise consider an inconsequentially subtle difference in word usage. While Dogs and Wolves are Canines and Red Heelers, Blue Heelers, and Irish Setters are all Dogs, all four are different to varying degrees. Here and elsewhere, you may find that ‘Man’ is a social and ‘Male’ is a biological distinction. ‘Male’ covers all the social group of men, including both ‘non-misogynistic males’ and ‘misogynistic males’. Those here almost always specify exactly to which group/sub-group they are referring.

  162. Hecate December 12, 2010 at 2:13 PM #

    “I’m not letting you reel me into a bitching fest.”

    Well Muhammad, I don’t generally engage gasbags in a ‘bitching fest.’ Too much of a drain of my energy to be honest..

  163. Fede December 13, 2010 at 10:27 AM #

    Sic, what a beautiful delurk. I’m probably being a bad feminist for handing out internet cookies to a man for being a decent human being, but really mate, it’s folks like you that keep The Night of the Long Kitchen Knives from happening. ;)
    Thanks.

  164. Hecate December 13, 2010 at 10:27 AM #

    Is this a new tactic of child rapists? Geez! In broad daylight, in big name stores…

    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_16847300?nclick_check=1

  165. Muhammad December 13, 2010 at 10:28 AM #

    One last comment….sorry about all the typos.

  166. Muhammad December 13, 2010 at 10:28 AM #

    Okay, these are probably going to be the last comments I leave. This has proven to be a profoundly pointless experience. I’ll just leave these comments and then I’ll go ahead and rip my eyes out. I give up. Sorry.

    @Fede, me and emlee made the same point, we were both saying that this “sickness” that is associated with masculinity is NOT innate, it is a social construct. We were both saying that. I said that several times – when I said it you got angry, but when emlee said it, she has a “worthwhile point”. I said that males aren’t innately sick, that’s all my point was. I don’t understand how that ignited an argument. I don’t understand how that makes me “entitled”. And I didn’t mean that I expected you to literally ignore me, I just meant that I thought no-one would start an argument with me because I didn’t say anything misogynstic or malicious so I didn’t think I would attract any attention.

    @isme – “I understand that you don’t mean to do it, and that the feminists have left you feeling hurt, confused and upset.”
    I’ll be honest, this is really fucking confusing. I didn’t mean to infuriate the women here so much. I don’t know what to say, everything I’m saying is offending everybody, I think I’m just offending everyone even more right now. I’m 19 and I’ve only had the internet for a couple of months and every time I walk away from the computer, I’m always really bewildered. I didn’t think I’d have an argument with anyone here because I think feminism is a good cause, I never intended to piss anyone off. I still don’t really know what we were arguing about.

    “Yes, you’re angry, and maybe feeling betrayed that they didn’t welcome you as an ally/saviour.”
    I’m not angry, just baffled. I never expected to be thought of as a “saviour” either, I’m not mentally ill. I don’t suffer from delusions of grandeur. I was just making a banal comment about how men aren’t inherently sick and I assumed people would be okay with that. If all men were inherently sick and biologically programmed to be evil, wouldn’t that destroy any hopes of bettering the situation and make feminism pointless? I need to stress this; I’m NOT saying that misogyny isn’t midespread, I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s innate to males. I’m not trying to trivialize oppression or attack feminism.

    I dunno, I wasn’t trying to “challenge” anyone, I didn’t come here to fuck up your shit or throw a spanner in the works, I didn’t think I would bother anybody. I have no beef with feminism. I know that everyone here thinks I’m a fucker but I swear to al-aziz that in real-life I’m not malicious or misogynstic.

    “Yes, you don’t know what you’re arguing about anymore, but you don’t want to lose the argument.”
    I don’t care if I lose the argument, I really don’t care, this is not a pride thing…I’ll accept that you have won the argument. You win, I lose. Whatever. But there isn’t really a “win” or “lose” in this argument because there isn’t even a point, we’re not even arguing about anything. There is no point to this. I just wanted to make a dull comment that not all males are sick and I managed to piss off loads of women. I’m not one of those people that argues just to be the one in the right. You’re the winner, I’m the loser. I don’t care. I’m really not egotistical.

    @lizor – I already know about the Anti-Porn men Project, I’ve visited that site a few times and I think it’s a great movement. And I never tried to tell you how you’re “fucking up”, I don’t think you’re fucking up…I just didn’t understand this argument. We don’t actually disagree on any points do we?
    ___________________

    Let me make this clear; I never said that feminism is flawed. I’m not attacking the feminist ideology and I’m not saying that you don’t have to suffer from misogyny. I’m not in denial, I know women are a oppressed demographic. Initially, I just wanted to say that I think *SOME* men are not evil because I persoanlly think males aren’t inherently “sick”, I’m sorry if that is offensive to anyone. My father raised me and my brother on his own and did a good job of it I think, he is a good man, there is no evil in him. I also said that I don’t think that porn is the “ultimate male bonding session” and apparently that also offended some people too; but no-one yet has actually explaied to me how males apparently “bond” over porn. Maybe I’m wrong but I have never heard of this “bonding” through porn before.

    Anyway, this was pretty bewildering. I didn’t come here to piss anybody off. I should never have said anything, I’m sorry. I won’t come back to this blog again if you don’t want me to. Whatever it was that I said that offended anyone, I’m genuinly sorry.

  167. Muhammad December 13, 2010 at 10:28 AM #

    @sic

    “No. You jumped right in to that on your own, there was no coaxing involved. The only one to blame for your behaviour is yourself.”
    I did blame myself. Go back and look at what I wrote. I said “my response to Miss Andrist was emotionally-charged and I reacted with unnecessary hostility” and “But like the idiot I am, I allowed Miss Andrist to reel me in”.

    “Really? I’m calling bullshit. If you haven’t insulted anyone, what do you call this? ‘Listen, don’t pretend you know anything about me you arrogant, condescending, pompous, patronizing, buffoon’.”
    Are you blind? You quoated me but you delibereately cut out the bit LITERALLY just before where I said “Apart from that”…so what point are you making? I said APART from that time when I insulted Miss Andrist (which I apologised for), I haven’t insulted anybody. What you did there is quote-mine me, you deliberately chipped off the start of the sentence. Did you conveniently miss that part of the sentence?

    “‘because you people’
    -A classic example of what to say when you want to piss off those whom you are addressing by attempting to make them be ‘the others’, ‘the different ones’, ‘the ones who just are not right like the rest of us.”
    Now you’re being really silly. When I say “you people”, I’m just referring to the people I’m addressing…seriously, what else am I supposed to say? How are you getting offended by that? You’re people that I’m speaking to – hence “you people”. There’s no hidden meaning there.

    When I asked if “do you view all men as the enemy”…it wasn’t that much of a mad question seeing as we’ve got a woman here right now who’s openly admitting that she views all men as “the enemy”. The women on here aren’t hiding their disdain for men so I didn’t think they’d be offended by that question. Also, if an Israeli said “not all Jews are bad” why would that be offensive to anyone? Wouldn’t you just go “yeah, I know”? I support the poor Palestinians and I can relate to their suffering because my mother and two brothers, Hamzat and Sa’id, died during the war in Noxçiyn. Russian’s bombed my hometown of Shali, which also killed my uncle Faisal and my cousins. The rest of my family fled to Dagestan and Stavropolsky…but if someone said to me “not all Russians are bad” I wouldn’t get angry, I would just say “Yeah, I agree”. Why would you get angry?

    “you -a self-identified Sunni Muslim called ‘Muhammed'”.
    I’m not a self-identified Sunni Muslim. I come from Noxçiyn (Chechnya) which is a Sunni Muslim Republic, my family are Muslims…but I left Islam, mainly because of the way it treats women, so I’m kinda shocked that the women here think I’m a misogynist.

  168. NotSo December 14, 2010 at 7:18 AM #

    @NineDeuce – thank you (re my earlier comment)

    @ Muhammad

    “but I left Islam, mainly because of the way it treats women”

    this i can get behind. same here. doesn’t automatically guarantee you’re now a paragon of feminist virtues though. (does that make sense to you?)

    BUT – at the same time you need to understand that on a radical feminist blog saying ANYTHING about ‘teh male exceptions’ sounds a hell lot like mansplaining and/or unnecessary trivialization.

    it’s either “oh what crazy radfems let me reassure them not every man is bad because i’m sure they’ll love to hear about the few exceptions” or “i have to let them know somehow that i’m not bad because i’m also a feminist! RADFEMS – I’M NOT BAD GIVE ME COOKIES!!”

    the idea is not what you said being so offensive per se, so much as you said it unthinkingly – without realizing the context of where and what you were saying. it’s a typical sign of male privilege (although in your case, internet noobism – either way, it’s a bore and a derail).

    also, stop getting dramatic about shooting yourself in the face and that – that’s more doodely drama nobody here needs. you’ve written SOOOOOO much now about how you’re misunderstood it’s given this lurker a headache. get over it already and read the rest of this awesome blog.

    finally – giving a blanket apology for ‘whatever’s upsetting these crazy radfems’ means you’re still missing the point.

    did you even read “the rules” before commenting? they’re there for a reason. go read them now if you have time, eh?

  169. Elisheva January 16, 2011 at 8:36 PM #

    How many of you have ever talked to a porn actor or any sex worker? How many of you have tried to see her for who she is? I havn’t, I admit but before I judge her, i’m not going to assume that she is suffering and doing something against her will unless I talk to her.

    Instead of going over thier heads and telling the women participating in porn that they are victims, why not talk with them before assuming anything? why not try to understand them, while assuming that they are beings with free will who made choices? Everyone is influenced by society, but we (some at least) still assume that we have free will. Try just for arguments sake to assume they made a choice, that it is what they want and see how it can be explained.Maybe feminist organizations should organize meetings with sex workers for a discussion?

    Maybe try and see the issue in a more complex fashion. Maybe porn in itself isn’t bad but some is. Maybe porn actors have good and bad experiences, maybe some suffer and some enjoy themselves. Why assume that all the women in the porn industry have the same experience? Why not see them as individuals?

    Maybe some are happy and would like to explain why? Maybe some arn’t and need your help? From what i’ve read of what they wrote and said on the internet, some can talk intellegently about why they are doing it.

    You can see from reality TV that both sexes are willing to humiliate themselves ( at least I see it as humiliation) in front of both sexes, if they get something out of it, so the humiliation (if it is that)in porn isn’t necessarily an outcome of sexism. On reality TV, for instance on Big Brother, in the Israeli version, they had a competition of who would cry the most tears after talking about their painful memories in front of a camera. That is much more intimate and revealing than porn in my eyes, and apparently some people are willing to do that- go figure! And some porn actors don’t feel humiliated, according to them, so why are you projecting your atitude to porn -I understand- that you would be humiliated doing what they do and so would I- on to them?

    Also I think the reason that some men can tell the difference between the way women are portrayed in porn creates and real life, is that when masturbating, some of them want something which is purely lust and when engaging with another person, they want to do exactly that- connect with them.

  170. Elisheva January 16, 2011 at 8:46 PM #

    I would like to add that if the problem is that you are bothered by guys watching porn because you don’t like it, then by all means have zero tolerance for it. No reason that you should accept something you don’t want to.

    Also why are so many of you against men in general? Have you really met so many horrible ones? Feminism can’t be the assumption that most men are lacking in empathy and understanding.

  171. Elisheva January 16, 2011 at 8:48 PM #

    Sorry about the many spelling mistakes…

  172. isme January 17, 2011 at 3:00 AM #

    “How many of you have ever talked to a porn actor or any sex worker? How many of you have tried to see her for who she is? I havn’t, I admit but before I judge her, i’m not going to assume that she is suffering and doing something against her will unless I talk to her.”

    Which is fair enough. However, feminist thinkers (or at least ones worth labeling as such) actual do deal with the experiences of real women.

    “And some porn actors don’t feel humiliated, according to them, so why are you projecting your atitude to porn -I understand- that you would be humiliated doing what they do and so would I- on to them?”

    Yes, it is true that there are those who say they genuinely enjoy what they are doing. This is a point that is not denied. It does not stop there from being legitimate concerns about women who were forced into the sex industry.

    “You can see from reality TV that both sexes are willing to humiliate themselves ( at least I see it as humiliation) in front of both sexes, if they get something out of it, so the humiliation (if it is that)in porn isn’t necessarily an outcome of sexism.”

    Reality TV is very different from pornography, you can’t compare them that way. Pornography features the degradation of women (almost exclusively), for the enjoyment of men (almost exclusively). “Whore brutally fucked til she cries”, for example, is far from an unusual summary of pornography, and that is quite obviously meant to be degrading.

    “Also I think the reason that some men can tell the difference between the way women are portrayed in porn creates and real life, is that when masturbating, some of them want something which is purely lust and when engaging with another person, they want to do exactly that- connect with them.”

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that men, in general, are fully capable of compartmentalising, that they can differentiate between pornography and reality and that consuming porn does not neccesarily influence their behaviour in the real world.

    This is a point on which I am in disagreement with most people that post here.

    However, although men are capable of doing this, they choose not to. It is simpler, easier, and more entertaining to pretend you are in your own private porn movie.

    “Also why are so many of you against men in general? Have you really met so many horrible ones?”

    More or less, yes. For example, it is estimated that 1 in 3 women worldwide will be raped at least once during their lives. That’s in excess of one billion women. It requires a staggering amount of rapists, almost all of them male, to rape that many women.

    This is of course omitting mention of any of the other examples of misogyny women have to deal with.

    I’d like to also mention that these points have been raised and refuted many times here before. And, for that matter, on any number of other feminist blogs. You could have found the answers to your questions more or less anywhere, and it becomes a little tiresome when people keep asking the same questions.

    On the other hand, I’m going to brush up on my terminology and accepted definitions, and make it into a boardgame. “What about the menz?” *BINGO!*

  173. lizor January 17, 2011 at 4:15 PM #

    Thanks isme.

    When I read posters asking disingenuous questions and who are obviously too lazy or stunned to actually read the blog it just makes my head hurt.

  174. emlee March 30, 2011 at 8:45 PM #

    Ok, this comment is going to sound harsh. I’m not out to hurt any feelings, and am sorry if I do. But my concern for our shared feminist goals compels me to make a particular point, and I don’t know how to make this point without being blunt.

    Hecate: “Ah yes, anyone who has an opinion is a horrible bitch! Where have we heard that before? Hmm…”

    First of all, I never called you a bitch. I implied that you’re a dick.

    Second of all, I didn’t call you a dick for having an opinion. I called you this because, judging by the cruel, condescending, insulting way you communicate with me and with anyone who disagrees with you, it’s clear that you have the same pattern of relating to others as the entitled, narcissistic men who you criticize.

    It’s also clear you’re not the only one on here who is like this, so I hope you’re not the only person who reads this.

    The comment you wrote which I quoted above shows that you projected your misdeed onto me, the person on who you unleashed it. Because it was you who attacked me for having an opinion – an opinion which pissed you off because it was critical of something you’d said. It pissed you off, despite the fact that it was expressed politely and despite (or perhaps, even more so because of) the fact that it made a valid point.

    Hecate said: “As for myself, I reserve my right to any opinion I may voice regarding the ‘male race’ whenever and however I like.”

    Clearly it is your right to use the term “male race.” Just like it’s your right to continue to be dickish to anyone who disagrees with you… or to anyone who asks ignorant but earnest questions about feminism.

    But exercise these rights and you are going to fuck over the goals that we (you, me, and the others who comment here) share: to build a mass movement to abolish patriarchy.

    I already explained in my first comment why using the term “male race” hinders this goal: “it’s like saying there’s no hope for abolishing sexism, that “boys will always be boys,” n that every single male is biologically destined to be a violent domineering asshole. what a demoralizing and demobilizing thought. why try to fight sexism at all if this is the case? n why should any guy try to overcome his sexism if that’s his nature?”

    As for your tendency to be cruel, condescending, and insulting to anyone who disagrees with you … or to those who reveal their ignorance about feminism yet are also clearly eager to learn … this is also counter-productive to building a mass feminist movement. I’m not talking about communicating this way with those who are clearly anti-feminist. I’m talking about those who display a sincere interest in being a feminist, in learning more about feminism, and in being part of the effort to create a feminist world.

    People like this often have opinions which we might think are wrong. They might even display a shocking degree of ignorance. But as long as they show an earnest commitment to feminism and an open-minded desire to learn and to accept criticism (when it’s communicated respectfully), then they deserve our respect and our patience.

    If we don’t give them respect, most of them are going to drift (or run) away from the feminist movement (not that there’s much of a movement these days). And then we’re never going to get anywhere.

    If we expect everyone who shows an interest in feminism to have excellent feminist politics, to be free of ignorance or of a single antifeminist position, then there wouldn’t be a need for a feminist movement. You know how rampant and deep the sexism is in this world. So shouldn’t you expect that even those who are committed to feminism will have flaws, will ask ignorant questions, will assert the occasional less than perfect opinion? And by making anyone who lacks this standard of excellence, feel ashamed, and feel as if their commitment to feminism is worthless or fraudulent unless it is already manifested in perfect form, is an obstacle to the growth of our movement.

    It reminds me of a situation with a friend of mine who I was once part of an anti-racist action group with. We were an integrated group, but this friend would say things like “white people are the devil,” and she treated the white people in the group unfairly — accusing them of being entitled, racist, phony, etc. for the most humbly expressed disagreement with her view, whereas much more outspoken disagreements from Black people would be responded to amiably (people of other ethnic groups she treated somewhere in the middle). I tried to call her on it and she called me a self-hating oreo. Some white people stuck around and put up with it (probably out of white guilt) but most left. And most of the Black and other non-white people left, too, including myself, because we were frustrated with the toxic environment. Eventually someone (another Black woman) cussed her out for it so severely that the culprit thankfully left, but by then the group was already demoralized and destroyed, and its since disbanded.

    This is the effect that your insulting, condescending communication style has on this blog. Sure, some people stick it out and try to (while walking on tiptoes as if on eggshells) reason with you and have a dialogue, but these are probably only those few who feel so guilty that they bother to put up with your shit for so long. The rest of us just say to hell with it, and don’t bother becoming part of the discussion in the comment section — we just stick to reading the posts. Others might even be so disgusted that they stay away from this excellent blog altogether.) It is a sad loss for feminism. More minds that could have been opened and changed, if only they had been engaged with in a way that didn’t make them feel like a total piece of misogynist (or, for females, internalized-misogynist) shit.

    So, for the sake of our shared goal of building a mass feminist movement, don’t be so dickish to people!

    But maybe you’ve lost faith in this goal. And so maybe you’ve replaced it with the goal of having a self-satisfied, morally superior clique in which you can piss on everyone else and feel all good about yourself. If that’s your goal, and I suspect that it might be, then by all means, continue to piss away with that dickishness of yours.

  175. emlee March 30, 2011 at 9:05 PM #

    PS – Also driven away are people like me, people with good feminist politics (I bet we see eye to eye on most of it), people who have been brutally hurt by patriarchy, who come here seeking a supportive community, and find, instead, that this community is sullied by a few bad apples who remind me of dickish, narcissistic, psychologically abusive men who I have cut out of my life.

  176. Hecate March 31, 2011 at 11:13 AM #

    Well Emlee, you should probably change your handle to ‘gasbag.’ What a boorish dullard you are.

  177. Hecate March 31, 2011 at 11:31 AM #

    Also, this happens to be ND’s blog, not yours. So you don’t get to decide who stays or who goes, little Ms. Gasbag. She does. And I will absolutely stand by her decision, even if she bans me. So suck on that for a while or go have a gasbag to gasbag chat with that idiot Muhammad, who has done a much better job than I ever could of pissing folk off here.

  178. Juno August 3, 2011 at 8:01 PM #

    Kristina??? Are you the same Kristina who used to comment on Hugo Schwyzer’s site? If so, I just want to say that reading that blog has become so much harder to stomach without you there…Really, the Kristina on that site was the only ray of light I got while reading…lots of really educated, intelligent people who can’t seem to see the forest for the trees sometimes…

  179. skeptifem August 6, 2011 at 11:12 AM #

    “As for your tendency to be cruel, condescending, and insulting to anyone who disagrees with you … or to those who reveal their ignorance about feminism yet are also clearly eager to learn … this is also counter-productive to building a mass feminist movement”

    The same discussion went on in atheist/skeptic groups I have been a part of. There was this one camp called “framers” who thought that framing arguments carefully would win us more support, but most of what they wanted was for the blunt folks to stop saying what they meant and sugar coat it for the fence sitters. They claimed that it would recruit more people, but there wasn’t any real evidence for that. People who made forceful critiques seemed to be the ones who got people to re-examine their choices. They wrote best sellers and were asked to make speeches and started foundations. The framer people mostly just banned cuss words from their blogs and told the successful people that they were doing it wrong. I was really unimpressed by all of it.

    The way that framers talk also wraps their suggestions up in a threat. “If you don’t speak politely, then I won’t listen.” Its BS. I have had some seriously mean comments thrown my way, and it would be easy to say “if you’re going to talk to me THAT way, I don’t know why I should even listen”, but I can’t be satisfied with that. Inside I know that I should really get to understand the point being made, and discuss that. There are too many times in my past where I overlooked someone’s point, one that would have saved me a lot of trouble, because I was unable to look past their tone and see what their point was. People who say things in a way that doesn’t feel honest are usually a lot harder to understand, even if the honest way is kind of dickish or rude.

    You can look to previous rights struggles to see how much being nice mattered. People who are eager to learn go and do it, they don’t make others responsible for their education.

  180. Hecate August 6, 2011 at 5:50 PM #

    Incredibly well put and very concise points, skeptifem. I feel the same way. And I have to say, those who ‘seemed’ polite to me in the past, were the worst kind of vipers you could possibly imagine behind the scenes, or at best ‘hard to understand,’ as you put it. Passive aggression just never worked on any front, and never will. Unfortunately, I deal with that attitude a lot more from people now that I live in California. I found East coast types a little easier to ‘level’ with, and still do. Indeed, having been born in Boston myself, that directness is still very much a part of my personality, and is an attribute I’m not about to do away with any time soon.

  181. Sugarpuss August 7, 2011 at 3:29 AM #

    Elisheva said:

    Also I think the reason that some men can tell the difference between the way women are portrayed in porn creates and real life, is that when masturbating, some of them want something which is purely lust and when engaging with another person, they want to do exactly that- connect with them.

    What a load.

    Kindly explain how one man’s request to “throatfuck” me is a legitimate expression of his desire to “connect” with a fellow human being. And I suppose “can I jizz on your face” or the ever-prevalent “do you like it up the ass” is also a manifestation of this altruistic desire for men to “connect” with women too, hmm? If that isn’t porn-induced lust, I don’t know what is. You sound very young & naive, but you’ll experience the sad reality soon enough.

    Feminism can’t be the assumption that most men are lacking in empathy and understanding.

    It’s not an assumption, it’s a fact. Masculinity 101 is prevalent to the point that few, if any, men escape it’s anti-woman teachings. I judge a tree by the fruit it produces… and I think it’s safe to say that most lemons are sour. Oh, btw… who are you to determine what Feminism can or cannot be? You’re in no position to make such demands, noobie.

  182. Hecate August 7, 2011 at 2:06 PM #

    You’re awesome, Sugarpuss! :) Posts like yours are exactly why I come here. As far as I’m concerned, the only real ‘desire’ I’ve ever seen in men is that of ‘connecting’ and reconnecting with their own shitty egos… Empathy?! That is beyond laughable, as you point out so succinctly.

  183. lizor August 8, 2011 at 8:01 AM #

    @ Sugarpuss – what Hecate said. Great post, thanks!!

  184. Sugarpuss August 12, 2011 at 7:06 AM #

    Hecate & lizor: Glad you enjoyed that, because I certainly enjoyed saying it. :D

  185. emlee October 11, 2011 at 11:55 AM #

    I wrote: “As for your tendency to be cruel, condescending, and insulting to anyone who disagrees with you … or to those who reveal their ignorance about feminism yet are also clearly eager to learn … this is also counter-productive to building a mass feminist movement”

    Skeptifem responded: “The same discussion went on in atheist/skeptic groups I have been a part of. There was this one camp called “framers” who thought that framing arguments carefully would win us more support, but most of what they wanted was for the blunt folks to stop saying what they meant and sugar coat it for the fence sitters. They claimed that it would recruit more people, but there wasn’t any real evidence for that. People who made forceful critiques seemed to be the ones who got people to re-examine their choices. They wrote best sellers and were asked to make speeches and started foundations. The framer people mostly just banned cuss words from their blogs and told the successful people that they were doing it wrong. I was really unimpressed by all of it.”

    Hecate responded: “Incredibly well put and very concise points, skeptifem. I feel the same way.”

    I also think what Skeptifem wrote was incredibly well put. And I also feel the same way. I’m not saying we should sugar coat things all the time. It’s not just the absence of sugar coating of a point that’s the problem here. It’s shit coating of points. That’s what I’m saying is counter-productive. I don’t think our points should be coated in anything, sugar or shit. Also common here is shit flinging with no point in it at all.

    Skeptifem wrote: “I have had some seriously mean comments thrown my way, and it would be easy to say “if you’re going to talk to me THAT way, I don’t know why I should even listen”, but I can’t be satisfied with that. Inside I know that I should really get to understand the point being made, and discuss that.”

    Again I agree. But that advice should be directed at Hecate not me. I made several points in my posts, but she didn’t bother to discuss them are address them, she just hurled shit at me…..

    Hecate:”Well emlee, I’m sure you and Muhammad will become fast friends. Why not go off and start your own blog about how wonderful and adorable and cute and fluffy men are? It bothers me that your grammar is just about below the level of a 5th grader. You want to talk about ‘disturbing?’ Well, there you go! You can be your own unsettling case study.”

    By all means be blunt and direct and even snappy when making points. But don’t coat points in shit and don’t fling pointless shit at me about my grammar. Nine Deuce walks this balance quite well, and she can be searing at times, but she doesn’t cross the line, in my opinion. I also think that the line is drawn in a different place when you’re blogging vs. when you’re in a conversation. What is rude in a conversation to a particular person is not necessarily rude in a blog to a general audience.

    I dropped out of school in grade 10 and mentally dropped out years before that because of abuse at home ruining my concentration. My bad grammar/spelling is something I’m ashamed of but I thought I could come here and experience a welcoming community where we challenged each other’s ideas but without personal and petty attacks such as this. Apparently not, and so I ask my roommate to edit my posts here now, to avoid humiliation from anyone, but asking for editing help is itself degrading. So thanks for making me feel like shit about my lumpen proletariat background. So much for solidarity with or even decency towards women who have been forced into the underclass due to abusive circumstances. Here there is only solidarity for those who agree on everything, and those who don’t have shit flung at them, with or without points hiding inside the turds. And those who don’t fling shit are still complacent by not calling it out or by attempting to justify it, as Skeptifem does.

    Quoting Hecate again: “Well Emlee, you should probably change your handle to ‘gasbag.’ What a boorish dullard you are.”

    Notice how she ignores every point I made in my previous post and just dismisses it all by calling me a gasbag and boorish dullard. This is exactly the type of thing Skeptifem was rightfully warning against.

    Hecate: “Also, this happens to be ND’s blog, not yours. So you don’t get to decide who stays or who goes, little Ms. Gasbag. She does.”

    I never was trying to decide who stays or who goes or presumed I had that authority, or even presumed I could make a request to ND that someone be banned. I was just giving advice on more effective ways to convince others. Hecate, you seem to misread everything I write, either purposely or due to being a little out of touch with reality. Like when I called you a dick for making fun of my grammar, your reply was: “Ah yes, anyone who has an opinion is a horrible bitch!” I had not once said or implied that I had a problem with you having an opinion. Ironically, me having an opinion (different from yours) is what provoked you into insulting me in the first place. The evidence piles up that either you wilfully twist reality or you involuntarily misperceive it. Whatever the origin of the misperception, you are blind to anything shitty you do towards others, and you perceive shitty treatment towards you where it doesn’t exist – which then makes you feel entitled to treat that person like shit. Reminds me of every abusive boyfriend I’ve ever had! And so I know from experience there’s no point in trying to reason with people like this.

    I can’t help but be reminded of last year’s drama on the internet with Jennifer McLune and oob. At first I was on Jennifer’s side because I’ve also been in spaces where white people’s “subtle” racism has pushed me out. But after looking into it further I started to wonder if she wasn’t of the type I’ve been describing, who perceives shitty treatment where none has occurred, and then responds by lashing out against the perceived perpetrators. It’s impossible for me to tell for sure, but that’s the impression I got after reading her account of what happened at oob and also reading her FaceBook arguments with various people over the previous months. It’s ironic because the people who (may have been) unfairly lashed out against were radical feminists, and if the people who comment on this blog are representative of radical feminists, then they were just getting a taste of their own medicine. It’s sad to say because I consider myself a radical feminist. When I read this blog I agree with every post. When I read Andrea Dworkin I agree with every page. But when I read the comments on this blog I start thinking, if this is what radical feminism means, then fuck it.

    Skeptifem wrote: “You can look to previous rights struggles to see how much being nice mattered..”

    Good point. Mass movements are usually successful when they attempt to force those in power to make changes (or forcefully take power), and rarely successful when they attempt to morally persuade those in power to make changes. But this blog and the conversations in the comments section is an entirely different context. Asshole anti-feminists have their comments blocked (if I correctly remember what’s written on The Rules page).The people allowed to post here are at minimum what you called “fence sitters” — those who are supportive of feminism generally although they may have certain positions or views which are anti-feminist, and they often come here looking to learn and open minded to having their views challenged. I think these people deserve our kindness. Not that we need to sugar coat things for them, but don’t shit coat things. That will make their minds close up. As for the asshole anti-feminists, there’s not much hope for them coming on side, and they tend to be shit flingers themselves so we might as well fling shit back.

  186. Hecate October 12, 2011 at 9:33 PM #

    Mmmm yeah, like I sad before, you’re a GASBAG, Emlee. You could use some ‘directness,’ rather than taking such a painfully pointless, long, boring crap all over these boards. You’re like the passive ‘Daddy’s Girl’ Valerie Solanas talks about in her SCUM Manifesto. I’m not sure anyone here has a damn thing to learn from you, but they can certainly correct me if I’m wrong, and I’m sure they’ll write it in a more interesting and engaging manner. Your posts are so much drivel and noxious diarrhea…

  187. gracemargaret October 14, 2011 at 7:59 PM #

    @emlee
    I am also a high school drop-out and am very insecure about my writing skills. Just getting to courage to make comments here took a long time for me and I still cringe after I hit the send button, thinking what I wrote will sound completely garbled and stupid and won’t make sense to anyone. Don’t be ashamed of your writing, you are very articulate and you shouldn’t have to feel like you need your roommate to proofread anything.

    I know there’s a frustration that, as women and feminists, we are *constantly* being accused of “man-hating” no matter how mild a feminist statement we make. The constant pressure to reassure people we don’t hate men,I think that’s part of what’s behind the reaction you got. Of course there isn’t anything innate in men that makes them misogynists, it’s completely learned behavior and the way humans react to being given power and privilege over another group of people. I think misogynists would like to believe that it’s boys will be boys or due to testosterone or whatever. Then they don’t have to take responsibility for their actions and choices. They can justify their bullying and abusive behavior.But when women say things like that it’s not “misandry”, it’s frustration at trying to change things and being met with hostility and having your words twisted on you time and time again. Sometimes we need to vent, sometimes it comes out as “men are such assholes!!” It’s only human to wonder why you’re targeted with so much hate all the time.

  188. Jennifer July 6, 2012 at 11:41 AM #

    I’m with Emlee and Muhammed… while I find the blog itself read-worthy and respectful of others (although in some ways a narrow viewpoint), the comments of a few of the folks in this forum are simply pretentious, condescending and insulting in general. I doubt I’ll ever read any of them again. Muhammed, if you’re still receiving updates from this blog, I’d like you to know that I agree with you: Not all males are into porn or the ideas behind it, and I’m happy to see a comment from a male on here who really isn’t and who does what he can to raise awareness of the issue among those he knows, you are a rare creature. If more males were as you are some of the females commenting here would not be so instantly incensed by anything and everything you type. I’m sad to see their responses to your very innocent interest in, if anything, giving them some hope. And I’ve not met a baby boy yet that is pre-disposed in any direction other than of love. A lot of bad programming out there? Sure. Thanks for doing what you can to negate it. Emlee, I’m almost distraught that you feel the need to have your roommate edit your comments here. What an unwelcoming place to have had the courage to express your views. I apologize on behalf of the others, although they will surely rip apart my observations, as well. I hope you both will remember that when someone treats you ill it is always a reflection on themselves, not on you.

  189. lizor July 7, 2012 at 5:20 AM #

    Jennifer,

    If you have criticisms, please be specific. You state: “a few of the folks in this forum are simply pretentious, condescending and insulting in general”. I don’t see that anywhere, so please communicate a bit more clearly.

    If you really believe, as your post implies, that the problem lies with women who stand in the way of heroes like Muhammed, why are you commenting here and not on Muhammed’s feminist blog? Being the concerned committed citizen that you recognize him to be, surely he at the very least has a blog or some record somewhere of his good works.

    And, if I happen to be one of the ” folks in this forum [who] are simply pretentious, condescending and insulting in general” do not take it upon yourself to apologize on my behalf. I stand by everything I post here and elsewhere and I do not apologize to you or to anyone else for my thinking, my analysis and the positions I take as a result of those.

  190. Hecate July 7, 2012 at 1:35 PM #

    Good points, lizor. I remain similarly unapologetic for my views and responses. There’s no point trying to get anyone to back down from their position. Those who try to do so are obviously very insecure as to where they stand. And yes, I am going to be very clear if I find someone’s style of writing/ opinion annoying or irrelevant. I don’t think anyone here is engaged in character assassination or anything as dramatic as that. It’s childish to take it personally. It’s also really silly to expect that a radfem blog/ discussion board is going to be like a ride through a field of tulips on a unicorn. Sure, we could all be Pollyannas, but that would accomplish less than nil. And yes, I also agree with lizor that people who cannot and will not confront the serious issues women still grapple with go elsewhere. So far, it seems most of the women here, myself included, would rather discuss the more pressing issues, than get involved in overblown dramas to do with one or two posters getting their wittle feelings hurted. Sometimes it’s the touchy ones who have the big egos/ illusions of grandeur. They simply refuse to see the big picture.

  191. Elle Fury September 19, 2012 at 6:19 AM #

    I know I’ve found these posts a little late, but I love them! I hope you will continue writing because I noticed you haven’t posted anything new in a while.

    I just wanted to share a quote from The Robber Bride by Margaret Atwood that I think relates very well to what you have written here:

    “Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it’s all a male fantasy: that you’re strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren’t catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you’re unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.”

  192. lizor September 20, 2012 at 7:28 AM #

    Great quote, Elle Fury. Thanks.

  193. Nico42 February 28, 2013 at 1:00 PM #

    I agree with you for the most part, but SOMETIMES women knowingly get into bad relationships simply because this guy looks better. For instance, my buddy is a bigger guy and not very good looking at all. Most women wouldn’t give him a chance, but he treats and respects women like they’re gold. Then they turn around and complain that all guys are assholes, but in reality they chose the guy who looks better over one that will treat them like they deserve to be treated. I’m not trying to offend anyone, and I’m sorry if I do. All I’m trying to say is that there are good men in the world (none of them are perfect, myself included) but a lot if the time in my friends case, phyical attraction trumps emotional attraction.

    • Nine Deuce February 28, 2013 at 6:10 PM #

      The same never applies to women.

      • Silent Agony (@DiscordantFlesh) February 28, 2013 at 7:42 PM #

        *Facepalm* Anyone not blinded by male privilege would realize this. Is empathy some magick power half the human race can’t grasp? There is this site called Everyday Feminism its pretty lib so I feel kind of offended on their facebook page they asked what people thought of Iceland banning or thinking about banning something like that pornography. It was only given a little tiny blurb and a link to a dumb simple article, this is all this major issue warrants to mainstream “feminists” ‘

        TruthLoader is hosting a live debate on Iceland’s recent proposal to ban pornography. If you’re interested, check out this promotional video and join them LIVE on Thursday the 28th of February for a debate: Is Iceland right to try to ban online pornography?’ Some responses from their facebook followers were…

        ‘No, porn is consensual adults having whatever crazy sex they like.
        Where is the issue in this?’
        —Since when is pornography free of coercion? R u kidding?

        ‘I can only agree with Summer. Sometime (ok, most of the time) it’s fucked up shit but hey ? It’s actually consensual so what’s the point of banning it ?’

        —Ummm where did you get the idea people enjoy being sold into sex slavery?

        ‘You’re also talking about a country that has little sexual violence in it.
        I’m aware that there is a seedy side to all businesses but banning pornography between consenting adults is ridiculous.
        Oh it affects women? Well taking away from the rights of women who enjoy what they do is also a negative.
        Just because a guy or gal watches porn that doesn’t mean that’s how they view sex or view women.

        —- A country with little sexual violence??? Where is this feminist paradise? Oh wait! It doesnt exist just because one country is slightly more sensible than other countries in the west. Big whoop. Feminism is over in Iceland people. Go home, case dismissed. So offensive tell that do all the abused women in that country and everywhere else for that matter. Violence isnt contained within borders.

        I don’t think a 12 year old needs to watch porn, because they will feel that’s how sex is since they don’t know differently. But come on, computers and game systems have parental controls on them
        You can monitor what is going on in your home.’ —Apparently everyone has the technical skills that will forever surpass that of a teenage boy with too much time on his hands. Don’t need to watch porn?! It is UNACCEPTABLE for a developing brain to witness that disgusting excuse for sexuality. Is this what some feminist critique has become? Thats why I come to blogs like this and I really enjoy it so thank you very much for being articulate and not afraid to speak your mind despite all the people who would tell you you are full of shit. You aren’t. You already know that though. ;)

        Then there are these such comments (made by someone with a male name):

        ‘I don’t suppose any porn actors have been invited to participate in this debate. Many sex workers use the phrase, “Nothing about us without us. ” Before we rescue anybody, we should consult with them to see if they want to be rescued.’

        We need a feminist coptpasta for idiocy like this. AHHHHHHHHHH!

  194. gracemargaret February 28, 2013 at 7:12 PM #

    Elle Fury,
    There is a news story that came out today about a male gynecologist who filmed women’s privates during their exam without their knowledge, there’s no privacy anywhere. I’ve said It’s like the telescreen in Orwell’s 1984 that monitored your every movement. This is what it’s like for women now:

    “The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it, moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live — did live, from habit that became instinct — in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.”

    • Silent Agony (@DiscordantFlesh) February 28, 2013 at 8:42 PM #

      I have been sexually harassed by FEMALE gynos, NO WAY WOULD you get a male one near me, no matter how “nice” he is. Aren’t they all. :/

  195. Chloe July 22, 2014 at 10:06 AM #

    WOW just what I was looking for. Came here by searching for resurgences

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  2. Monday’s Quote « Anti-Porn Feminists - September 7, 2008

    […] Nine Deuce, Rage Against the Man-chine […]

  3. Rage Against the Manchine’s Series on Pornography « AntiPorn101 - February 14, 2011

    […] Porn Part Six: Stockholm Syndrome […]

  4. Quote of the day: Saying What We Mean « Exiled Stardust - November 14, 2012

    […] – Miss Andrist, lover of men, from this epic blog post […]

  5. No More Page 3: another Jezebel « Exiled Stardust - February 5, 2013

    […] of a subhuman sex class.  Go back to Feminism 101 and start over.  Or take a shortcut and read Nine Deuce’s blog, every last scrap of […]

  6. The myth of the “manipulated man” | Your god is a fraud - July 8, 2014

    […] There is no such equivalent for men in this paper. I find that the accomodation of dominant, masculine sexual interests is still femininity and serves to benefit men and keep them in power, regardless of who initiates the sex act itself. Checking out the related practices popular in Thelemic circles and I have to concede: kink, polyamory, rape, cultic mindsets, swinging, and drug addiction, to name a few. Most of those things tend to serve male sexual interests and control women. Neither of them are healthy. “It’s a dilemma: is it worth the trouble to demand that our sexuality be taken as independent of male sexuality, that our sexual needs be met, and that we be seen as fully human individuals who approach sex with motives that extend beyond the desire to titillate men? It might not be for some people. There don’t seem to be a huge number of men who are interested in understanding female sexuality or in relinquishing their perceived right to define what sex is and should be. For some women, learning to make do with a less-than-perfect sex life might be the easier option when the alternative is risking being shunned, ignored, or called a feminazi, lesbian, or prude for demanding that their sexuality be accorded the consideration men’s sexuality is.” (Rage Against the Manchine) […]

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